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I still favor it and it works out well enough for me, but I think it helps to do it with a sufficiently dominant flare. There's a way to go about these things that can give off eager vibes like a "servant" and another way which is more cool and detached which gives off vibes like a "protector". Try to do it the latter way to get the best responses. Emphasize the "man" part of "gentleman" and not just the "gentle" part.
There's kind of a strong and weak way to go about everything. As a blatant example (and not suggesting you are anywhere like this -- you might already be really good), I had an acquaintance who was a bit too eager with the "gentle" part with not enough focus on the "man" part. So I frequently found him doing things like running up behind girls in our social circle and offering his jacket when it was cold. Even at first glance, that resembled a "servant" with a very submissive doormat demeanor. He even lowered his stance when he did it as though he was saying, "Please take this, your highness!" And while he would get a smile usually here and there, he wasn't doing all that well scoring dates. That's very different from, say, a guy standing tall next to a girl wrapping his jacket around her in a very cool and dominant way. That's more likely to get brownie points being thought "cool" and "strong" instead of just "sweet". It helps to be aware of this sort of distinction.
I know what you mean. I typically do stuff bc I enjoy helping others out. And not just women. I'll hold doors for other men as well just to help out. I won't run to a door just to hold it open like the other guy, you mentioned, unless they're trying to push something or carry something through (not saying that's what you were saying I was). I typically just help out as the moment arrives. I don't try to create my own moments if that makes sense. Thanks for your insight bro
Cheers, and same! I try to make it as gender-neutral as possible and just keep it in the realm of "courtesy" as I can, although I draw some distinctions. For example, I probably wouldn't go out of my way to walk on the side of oncoming traffic for a guy. :-D Some of it does cross over the realm of "courtesy" and into "courtship".
One interesting thing about the history of this subset of chivalry and how it evolved into more modern ideas of the "gentleman" is that, to my understanding, it was developed originally in Western cultures during the Crusades. So you had these strong, war-like lords going off to fight wars, perhaps fond of fighting and jousting, and their ladies (arranged in marriage) managing their household during the time. Then the men might return battle-scarred as war veterans, and the resulting relationship was probably largely devoid of passion and affection.
Then the idea of courtly love started coming about as I understand it to improve these relationships and temper these hardened men who were especially in need of learning how to use a more gentle touch. It's kind of an interesting piece of history, but I see the more universal appeal here as a combination of that hardness with softness. It can't just be softness.
That's actually really cool! I learned something new today. Thanks again for your input man!
"I typically just help out as the moment arrives. I don't try to create my own moments if that makes sense."
That's a great distinction. Another way I think of it is a guy being "on his heels" vs "on his toes". If he's leaning in towards a girl and jumping on any chance to be chivalrous, he's physically and metaphorically "on his toes". The lack of poise and balance registers to the woman as a sign of weakness. Compare that to the guy who stands tall, offers his jacket, but lets the girl come up to him and decide if she will accept it or not. He's "on his heels", planted in the ground, poised yet relaxed. He's not fixated on the girl but he still shows consideration of her wellbeing. With a simple shift in posture and attitude, the sane guy can appear more dominant or submissive-- even though the chivalrous gesture is functionally the same.
@SomeGuyCalledTom I think these are very fine distinctions. In a broader context beyond dominance and submission, I think these things have a lot to do with influencing other people's perceptions of our own self-worth. I think we're psychologically inclined to perceive those too "on the toes" and too eager to create these moments, as though they have little better to do with their lives or few interests of their own, as people of low value and easy to take for granted. I think that's actually quite gender-neutral and not always about dominance and submission. I think it might be quite an unfortunate psychological tendency at times but I think it's there regardless, and I think it helps those of conscience and a genuine desire to be kind to be able to navigate this effectively so that they can continue to perform altruistic actions without being taken for granted.
Where I draw the dominance distinction more is in courtship contexts. There's the gentleman tradition to pay for the date. I see it criticized a lot these days as the practice of a "desperate simp" and completely "unequal". I could see that as a fair criticism for cases where the guy lacks the sufficient dominant approach to dating, is too eager to impress a girl directly through his wallet, and/or the girl is completely lacking in proper "guest etiquette" (ex: the types to treat a man as an ATM while he happily obliges).
But with a sufficiently dominant approach to it where it's clear when we look at a couple on a date that one is the leader/host deciding where to go and what to do and the other the follower/guest who follows their lead, then it makes sense and is perfectly fair that the host treats the guest. It's like if a boss takes one or more of his/her employees out for dinner, the boss pays. That is proper and right given the power dynamics as I see it.
That's a great analysis. I agree completely. I also recognize that dominance/submission is a limited framework to apply to such nuanced social dynamics. Nonetheless, its a useful linguistic signifier for a "hundred foot view" of the terrain. But the map isn't the territory, of course, and these "alpha/beta" distinctions fall apart if applied too liberally.
I also dig the analogy of the boss paying for the meal for his employees. The mental image it conjures is very much in the "on heels" category.
@SomeGuyCalledTom Even "dominance" seems to have taken a negative connotation as one who is tyrannical and abuses that power to exploit others instead of using it to protect others. And that "alpha/beta" distinction has taken on a most superficial kind as though a man who sleeps with and discards as many women as possible has more leadership qualities than one who protects them. From my standpoint, a great leader is ultimately a great protector, and I don't think it helps to find more great protectors when society takes on such a cynical view of these subjects.
Couldn't agree more, you said it best.
If you're genuinely being helpful why does it matter if it's appreciated or not? Keep doing it friend, it's a good thing.
Thanks man. That's some good advice. I enjoy helping people out and plan on continuing
Opinion
29Opinion
Attractive 100%. Especially if it's genuine. Some guys feel forced to do this and it's almost like a burden to them, so that negative view is unattractive. If they don't want to do it especially since the equal rights movement, they don't have to. But it's always nice when a guy genuinely enjoys treating a woman like a lady and that would only make him more attractive in my eyes. Don't believe those who say women want ''bad boys''. Any girl that likes those with no manners and respect have no respect for themselves and are usually unstable.
I'm not sure I would consider this chivalry, but basic manners. Getting the door, offering to help with something heavy when they clearly can't manage, giving up your seat for the elderly or a pregnant women. These are basic manners everyone should know.
If you're also including the particular curtesy directed at a woman, I think there are some more obscure things in men's actions. For example, when ordering at a restaurant, my boyfriend would always gesture for me to order first, unless he already knows mine, he always makes sure my journey was safe and walks on the outside of the pavement when it rains. These actions, though small, I do notice, I'm not saying it's mandatory for guys to be like this, I'd much rather, you be the natural you, I just say that it is appreciated. I feel very safe.
@Oram52 Haha, the reason why I don't use the word chivalry is because chivalry is actually an old English knightly code of honour. I studied this period of chivalry in great depth, and one of the key texts that depicts chivalry to a modern day reader, which is all about protecting those weaker than you is ultimately a daydream. In the text one of King Arthur's knights is called on to save a lady who is being beaten by her husband, it's all about respect and love from afar. The text was written by a nostalgic knight who was in prison for cruelty, mass raping and pillaging. The chivalric code of honour was what he wished he could have been, while he was half dead and delirious in prison. Chivalry's origin is a false pretence to gain respect... dreamed up by a knight with no honour.
It's probably totally irrelevant now, since the word means something completely different. I still avoid using it though, it puts a bad taste in my mouth. Under your context though, yes please treat me like a lady.
Interesting, yeah Chivalric code is brought up when talking about chivalry, like you said meaning has evolved overtime. Do you study English Literature? I'd be interested to read the text you mentioned.
So what would you call Chivalry instead? At least feminists seem happy chivalry is dying.
@Oram52 I'm studying women in literature, so we've been studying female representation under male writers over the years. Really enjoyable course, honestly captivating.
Yeah I mean feminism is complicated. It's hard because it lumps very different women into one and doesn't consider our different desires. I mean 150yrs ago only a peasant woman was expected to have children and to work. Now all women except the very wealthy are expected to. I'd like to focus on my family, but today I feel like there aren't many men who respect that, plus working women themselves, don't respect that so... I guess I'm forced to follow society yet again, which shows I'm still trapped by convention... modern feminism has not benefitted me.
I'm sorry I'm getting to the point where that's not even relevant. But If feminists are happy then they are being ridiculous. I rejoice when my boyfriend offers to carry my bag, not only do I get to not dislocate my arm, but I feel all mushy about it, and he gets ego boost when I go 'oooo you're so strong!!' It's a win win situation!
No woman will find chivalry offensive unless she’s emotionally disturbed. Even if you go overboard it’s still a safer strategy than being an asshole. The only time I got offended by a guy doing something for me was when I went out with a man who insisted to stir my sugar in my coffee for me while ordering for me without asking what I would like to have, and acted like I’m a feminazi when I told him he’s overzealous.
Seriously, don’t ever listen to the “women like bad boys” bs or to men who teach you that romance and chivalry is dead, they are usually men who don’t know how to get women and then blame anything but themselves.
Be nice and courteous to people, it’ll only benefit you.
I hate chivalry, its staged and fake. Its fine if you help me as you would any other human being cause they need help or you are just being nice/polite. Anything else is sexsist to me cause you only do it cause of my gender. If you push it on me that I must go first, you won't walk through the doors im holding for you etc. that can be extremely annoying and uncomfortable. Sometimes I wanna go last, Im more comfortable that way. Especially if I say please dont, then dont do it. If a girl say please dont, if you already pride ysf into being a gentleman, so isn't it supposed to be her way? So listen to the girl. Plenty of "gentlemens" I know do it only cause it makes them feel good about themselves and dont care how a girl feels.
Sure, I like to think that doing things to maintain group harmony is still appreciated. That could involved things like holding the door open, giving up your seat in public (especially for elderly people), etc..
Good point!
Chivalry is always nice and it is attractive. As a matter of fact, I was hanging out with a very good friend of mine and when we were going place to place, he would open doors for me and even opened the car door for me to get in first. He offered to hold something for me while I got myself together and went and got my phone out of the car when I needed it. That’s a part of who he is but shows he was raised right. It’s a very admirable trait for someone to have.
I don't see how this could make us more or less attractive. It can make a person like you more or less though. It is more about you and the person you want to be rather than trying to be more liked. If you do it to a person that doesn't like it just remember that there is some issue inside of them making them dislike it. If you wanna be a guy that shows chivalry then be that. If you wanna be a guy that steals purses than be that. I'm not saying chivalry is right or wrong.
I once was chivalrous to a woman and she just told me to get away from her. I wasn't even having an agenda, I just wanted to be nice to all women yet she claimed that she doesn't need a gentleman. But still I'm chivalrous to all women because I didn't let her affect who I am!
It's attractive, I think it's only offensive when people try to enforce it. Like if she's closer to the door or something, just let her open it, no need for the extra fuss. Because when people enforce it, it makes others feel like they're useless or it's bothersome.
If you have the chance to show chivalry, do it, but don't go out of your way to try and be chivalrous.
good manners should never be offensive as i told the feminazi i held a door for once... i let her rant her psuedo political drivvel then pointed out that as a real feminist myself i learned from a young age to hold a door for anyone and that had fuck all to do with ''chivalry''. i wonder if you yourself are also confusing the terms
extremely attractive. Even better if he knows his table manners. oooohmyyyyyy🥵😍😍
Table manners are definitely important lol 😄
It is, is one of my personal standards for a guy. :)
Thanks for sharing 🙂
I like to feel protected by my man. It makes me feel like her cares. I don't know if I could date a guy who didn’t ever act chivalrous. Those little things mean a lot. It’s just sweet.
As long as there is no motive behind it, very attractive. I am always appreciative to people (men/women) who shows this to me as I already do it for others. But very attractive when men do it.
Yes yes yes. I always give a thank you to a held door and if a man is holding it, I always give him another glance (checking for a ring and attractiveness/chemistry).
Apparently not. Women like to stong and independent now and do things themselves. Including opening doors. Well if thats true... Then I guess you youreself can also put the toilet seat down for yourself if you want to be an independent woman then... I believe in you. You fot dis.
*got this
Go check what the ladies said here. They love a chivalrous guy.
I do,, haven't seen anyone else do it for quite a while
It really is a shame that that practice is slowly dying in our current culture. Glad that you still put it into practice
Thats what i was taught
It's only attractive when the guy doing it is attractive.
If a short, fat, ugly guy holds the door for women, they look at him with pure hate in their eyes. "How dare you exist? How dare you breathe?"
Not offensive, but also not necessarily attractive.
Bundle up all the things they like into "chivalry" and they'll call it attractive.
Bundle up all the things they don't like and position that as a violation of "equality".
...
Terminate the thought process there. Don't consider men's desires.
Now "equality" and "chivalry" are entirely compatible.
I don't really like that stuff because it makes me feel like I'm less of an equal person. I'm a girl but I want to be treated the same as a guy (im not a feminist tho). I dont like when I feel like guys feel pity for me because I've got boobs lol
It is very attractive. But I believe this is just manners. Women should hold doors open as well and such. The only way it is offensive is if you expect something out of being chivalrous.
I dont like when guys think I can't do something because I'ma girl. like "let me open this heavy door for you"
I mean holding doors for people is just being polite, wouldn't really call it chivalry. I have had a girl smile at me for holding a door and it turned out we were going to the same place and she sat and smiled at me for a bit after.
Females claim they still want it but will falsely accuse a male of "unwanted advancements" if he does anything and they don't like him, so they want it both ways and want to be able to use it against us when it suits them but still expect it without deserving it.
The kind of girl you really want will appreciate it. The ones that don't hate men anyway.
See? Pink replies FTW.
Yes my guy did and it made me respect the man he is
Chivalry makes men look like they are charming.
That's reassuring. I never know how people will respond to it but I do it anyway. Thank you for the feedback 🙂
Omg. Yes please 💜☪️☮️
Good to know 🙂
Lol 🤭☮️☪️
It's soooo attractive. It shows empathy and well I think it's great
For sure! The last guy I dated was a gentleman and walked me to my car after the first date and texted me later that night to make sure I had gotten home safely. :)
Really depends on the girl. If you're living on the west coast or in any leftist place, I'd say forget it, they'll just assume ur a beta bitch and hop on tyrone's black bratwurst
Don't care because most women do not deserve it in my experience.
Politness is good. Chivalry is sexist. Know the difference.
It will always be attractive what ever form it takes , it's a natural instinct and women evolved to respond to it.
Yes they do. Honestly I always felt like a boss ass man everytime I do it whatever I want to score with her or not.
Yes. I choose my boyfriend because he was one of the few guys still being chivalrous
Chivalry is wasted on today's women. Chivalry was for a man's cherished and beloved wife not for today's equal partner.
Several days ago I held a door for a younger woman pushing a baby stroller and she scowled at me like I was trying to eat her child.
I'm sorry to hear that man. That's one of the reasons why I asked the question. I have been scowled at before when holding the door open but I've also been smiled at. You just never know. In the end it feels good knowing that you made someone's day easier even if they didn't appreciate it
Living in the South, manners are very important. We say "yes ma'am, no ma'am" and we hold doors. I do the same for men, especially elderly. It is only younger women that get pissy about a man holding a door for her.
I also live in the south so I know what you mean. Lots of people usually just ignore me but at least I helped
@KrakenAttackin I have nothing against trolling, it's healthy, Problem is some people will actually believe you.
Most women who answered say it's attractive... so much for that equal treatment we've been hearing about...
Women like chivalry but most of them don't deserve it. As a general rule, I treat women like dog-shit until they convince me to do otherwise.
i dont like modern chivalry, its not accurate with the historical ideal.
Chivalry, yes.
White knighting, no.
It's a great trait to have
of course, it is so sweet
I bet you if a black man opened the door for a damn white woman shed feel uncomfortable of him being behind her. Racist hillbillys
It forever will and always will be attractive.
Yes it is and it is dying.
It is attractive to me
I love it! 😍
Glad it's appreciated! 😄
I think it’s very attractive
Yes I appreciate it very much it's sweet.
Yeah
It is to most people I think
No. She can open her own door.
Super attractive!!
Makes you look like a simp. Bitches love simps.
very heard the term "simp"?
id like to think so
So hot
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