In our modern day sociaty it has become too easy to win over someone. Either by flaunting what they have or working on how you look, but are peoples actions on a first date becoming less chivalrous? And do women still appreciate these things?
Do you hold the door open for your date? Move her chair out so she can sit? Take her coat or hold it for her to wear? Open the car door for her?
In the 1790s, Edmund Burke wrote upon the execution of Marie Antoinette by the French revolutionaries, "But the age of chivalry is dead. That of economists, sophists and calculators has succeeded and the glory of Europe is extinguished forever." Suffice to say, that is probably not a good sign.
To wit, I voted that it is dead, but that is not quite right. It is more accurate to say that old fashioned manners and etiquette are on the ropes. To the extent that "chivalry" is synonymous with those manners and etiquette, then it is true. Chivalry is dying if not dead.
Manners have been thrown on the bonfire. Condemned for being "inauthentic" and a burden on people's self-expression. Though to the extent that authenticity amounts to insulting others and eating with one's hands, one wonders why there is such a demand for self-expression. Such is the ethos of the contemporary age.
Of course, this is not entirely new. Chivalry itself was born in reaction to the treatment of women as little more than chattel. That itself having been the result of the crumbling of the Roman Empire.
Then came the Enlightenment and the idea that man, stripped of culture and religion and with law made in conformance with natural rights was a "noble savage." Then, the charm of savagery having worn off, came the Victorian age with its elaborate customs relating to the relationship of men and women. This having become too much, standards relaxed during the Edwardian era.
Then the boys came home from World War I and thought, 'Hey, life is too short. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may be dead in trenches in some foreign battlefield." Thus came the 1920s - nicknamed the "Roaring 20s" and the "Ballyhoo years." Then came the Great Depression and WWII and the Korean War and people sobered up and manners became more important again.
Finally came the Baby Boomers and the "sexual revolution" and the "swinging 60s." The Boomers took the peace and prosperity of their time for granted, and came to reject the "conformity" of the 1950s. Thus was born the cult of authenticity and - with some variations over time (the 80s and 90s saw a mild resurgence of more conventional manners) - the state of etiquette and manners as we find them.
Indeed, however, the "me too" movement may be helping to tilt the balance back to more conventional standards. No surprise, when the chains of custom came off, men felt as free as women to push the envelope and bad things happened. So now "liberated" women are swooning like scandalized Victorian maidens. The chains came off, excesses followed, and now the reaction. Predictably this time in the courts as America is, whatever else, a litigious society.
Having said all that, in any given individual etiquette and chivalry endure. I always hold the door - frankly for women and other men. I always pull out a chair for my girlfriend and stand when she enters a room in social settings. It is a sign of love for my girlfriend - and we teach it to our children - and respect for others.
Grant, appreciation and respect are at a premium in a populist age where self-absorption and authenticity are the most cherished virtues. All things tend toward entropy, and in the broader culture chivalry is on life-support. However, to some degree it will endure as the pendulum swings back and forth.
Honestly from the male side pulling if you I have had several women complain that I was doing things that used to be called chivalrous kind thoughtful. I had one lady whom I open the door for as we walk towards the restaurant she said excuse me I can open my own door I'm not Dead enough said my apologies I was trying to be polite. Needless to say that didn't work out next girl we walked to the vehicle I went over to her side she said what are you doing I said I'm going to open the door for you it's a show of respect for you she then told me to get back on my side that I can do it myself and it's not needed needless to say that didn't work out next girl I didn't open the door for her or open the restaurants door she looked at me with a large smile and said thank you I said for what she said thanking about me. I said I apologize I don't quite understand she then stated that it was rude of her last date to open the doors for her she felt violated I told her I've experienced is twice already. Needless to say that didn't work out so I understand those three women aren't the only women in the world but I'm sure they're not the only ones that think that way it took me a very long time to find a woman whom would let me open the door for her with let me pull her chair outs and set her on the check it took me a long time for breakfast in bed that was actually the strangest thing no woman wanted breakfast in bed I kid you not
I don't consider these things Chivalry but as being Polite. Proper upbringing. If a guy doesn't hold a door open for me or anyone I say you represent the very people who raised you, sad they didn't teach you manners!!!
1: mounted men-at-arms… the eleven kings with their chivalry never turned back …— Thomas Malory
2archaic
a: martial (see MARTIALsense 1) valor
b: knightly skill
3: gallant or distinguished gentlemen… Belgium's capital had gathered then her beauty and her chivalry …— Lord Byron
4: the system, spirit, or customs of medieval knighthoodbut Lancelot on him urged all the devisings of their chivalry— Alfred Tennyson
5: the qualities of the ideal knight : chivalrous conductchivalry demanded of him that he be conspicuous through his gallant, courteous, and generous behavior— H. W. Van Loon
I appreciate it but I don't need it. It feels like a plus. Also it depends on how it's performed. Some people behave very unnatural when trying to be chivalrous and it comes as awkward or even creepy... while other people just feel as if that's their natural way to show respect to everybody, not only the girl they date.
On the other hand I don't think I could take chivalry on only one direction. I mean, if a guy holds a door for me and smiles, the next time we have to go through a door maybe I'm the one holding the door for him. It just feels right for me to show that sort of respect back if the person inspires me respect.
I recently met one of the most wonderful gentleman in my ENTIRE LIFE, well I’m still young so 😂 but still he opens the door for me, kisses my hand goodbye its honestly the best feeling ever, I feel like I’m in an Jane Austen romance novel :) very much appreciated 🖤
My little son has been doing that for some time now (I don't recall... maybe around 5). Wrapping up nice little box and putting his older sisters plastic jewelry in it, then gave it to a little girl in his class) Pulling chair out of me. Opening door for others. He learned all these from the men around him. His future lady will be a lucky one. So no, its not dead. Sadly, I am hearing/reading a lot about women not wanting these gestures from men :( How to get these young ladies to appreciate nice gestures?
So your son is learning to be a pussy? Chivalry was around at a time when women had to act like ladies, cook and clean. Now they are able to do everything a guy can and don't need to be lady like, so if women don't have to be ladies men shouldn't have to be chivalrous and gentlemen. Teach your son some self respect, so he doesn't feel like he has to dote on a womens every need.
@nathanp97 thats your view. I understand with how some women are nowadays. I am sure there are still those who appreciate good gestures. He is doing well in all areas. Both being train to be a real man and know how to treat a lady. He will find a nice lady.
The point is not whether they appreciate the nice gesture or not. Do they deserve it? Not at all. And your son will understand for himself one day at least i hope he does
@nathanp97 I don't worry too much about what others do, say. I would be very sad to hope what they will do/say. I do my part, I know its right. Thats what makes me happy. But that doesn't mean I am a fool to bow down to everyone. Know your standards.
I still want to know, in general, what do women bring to a relationship to deserve chivalry? Women no longer have to act like they did in the past, yet many still expect it of men.
@nathanp97 this is rather based on you. what is it that you want? if you want children/family then you find a woman who want the same. thats what she can bring you. nowadays, decent family requires both working, poividing. If this is not what you want, then not sure what to tell you. our roles have been shifted and it is causing broken family structures I do worry for my children as I see how things are falling apart. and people are only looking out for themselves.
I guess so. I recently dated a man who was chivalrious and it turned out he was one of those "nice guys". Sure he got me flowers (even after I had rejected him) and payed for dinner when we were still dating but he also called women bitches and whined about how his biggest flaw is that he is "too nice and respectful" which all women hate so that is why he always gets rejected when in reality I rejected him due to all the huge red flags in his manipulative and entitled behaviour. So for all I care chivalry can be dead. I can't be bought anyway it makes no difference if a man gives me stuff or not.
@zoeadams3 Exactly but he obviously only did it to get in my pants and when it didn't work because I wouldn't accept toxic traits of his he kept doing it even though I rejected him and then got angry like I had forced him to do it when I wasn't even interested. He was mid 20s and had never had a girlfriend and I quickly understood why. It's bad when there's so many gold diggers out there and he'd not even managed to get one of those when he was so loose with money.
Its useless nowadays, women know if they want you within a short while of observing you therefore even if you f*ck up they will still give you a chance and be chivalrous has no real benefit to men other than being used and abused...
But here's where it gets tricky, if you are attractive and wealthy enough you dont have to put in any effort they will come to you regardless of how shtty you treat them, chivalry while sounds nice on paper is an illusion, its a nice bonus but not what makes a woman loves you, what does is seeing your value and being more valueable than her tha5s what gets most women attached and in love.
I think we need to define chivalry. As evidinced by @311wasaninsidejam's post (no disrespect 311) many people think chivalry only pertains to how guys treat women. It's actually a knights code and is applicable towards everyone. -courage -honor -courtesy -justice - and defence of the weak I'm not saying that women are helpless (in the modern world many are actually predators) but since historically women have been regarded as the fairer sex it makes sense that chivalry has taken on a connotation of "how to regard women" But to answer your question when you look at the list of the knightly virtues you'll quickly learn many of them are reviled in today's culture. So it's not that their aren't chivalrous people anymore they just learn pretty quickly sadly that a dollar sign is much more celebrated.
It's only easy to win over someone easy, someone shallow and ignorant who will never see you special and your relationship will barely have any connections other than sexual (which is sadly getting more common and becoming a first priority in dating), and a breakup is always expected.
On the other hand, a girl with self-worth, great qualities, self-respect, intelligence, morals, good values, and good standards WOULD need chivalry in a man, she wouldn't accept any less, she'd actually have standards and she'd proudly and steadily stand by them, THAT is a real woman you can count on, a woman you can proudly show to everyone and feel safe when you trust her with your entire future family life, a woman who will truly love you, admire you, and respect you because you worked your hardest and became the best version of yourself to earn her heart while other betas attempted to just easily get a free night with her. Precious values bring precious things!
Chivalry died a long time ago, when we stopped riding horses using lances as weapons. It literally only covered rules for mounted vs dismounted combat. This nonsensical chivalry doesn't exist. What you're talking about though? It's dead, and feminists ruined it for everyone.
1) Chivalry died in the dark ages and has absolutely nothing to do with courting women. I guess it sounds more impressive/romantic than "being a decent human being" but the two aren't related 2) my dad told me to do these things when I was like 13, a good portion of my friends knew to do these too. Plenty still do these things regardless of the out dated reasons why people used to do them
its not dead, plenty of guys do this and plenty of girls like this the issue is that people dont get that saying you dont like chivalry isn't equivalent for you thinking that should die or that it will die. People that love that shit can enjoy it, personally i dont and im glad guys aren't forced to be that way anymore or me act accordingly with it
I open door if I am first and that happens independent of romantic intentions. You shouldn't close the door if someone comes straight after you. I feel the whole pull out the chair or run around the car to open the door silly. She can manage those simple task and save us both time.
So I would say it's half dead, it's remaining traits is integrated into politeness and is no longer seen as chivalry.
Lots of western men do those things to me. I'm very appreciated. I think it's really nice. It's funny how local men around me leave me alone with heavy things. Forget about them holding a door for me, women here have to do for them sometimes. When they know what I can do, they are like "She's strong. Let her deal with it." 😅
Times have changed, back then women that acted like proper ladies Got men that were gentlemen and chivalrous. And now women are WAAAYY less ladylike and so men are WAAAYY less chivalrous.
It should be. There are too few situations where it's necessary or appreciated.
If the girl deems you a catch or above her she'll love it. But if you are a typical guy she'll see you as pathetic trying to impress her to compensate for not being good enough.
A girl needs to show her value to the guy as much as the guy needs to do the same to her so chivalry should just die. It just causes too many issues in society.
It’s dead all around me, but not within my character 😌 I’d always offer to pay on a first date or any special dinner I arrange as a surprise. I tend to open car doors or any door for women, adjust their seat for them, take their coat if they enter my home, etc. I would always be willing to offer them my own coat if we’re out in the cold.
I glorify that notion of gentlemanly behavior, manners and especially style 🎩
Chivalry was originally meant to keep knights in check because they were essentially aggressive thugs on horses. It had absolutely nothing to do with romance until fiction of it occurred in the 19th century.
It has no bearing nor should it have any bearing in how men treat women. If you're going to tell me women are my equal and at the same time tell me I have to give them special treatment, I'm not going to take you seriously.
no unfortunately it's not. just today i saw a woman harass a homeless man and when the homeless man started cursing at her some asshole came and beat up the homeless guy. if women want to be independent they can hold doors open for me i wouldn't mind. i hope chivalry dies soon
Not even surprised, it's common for women to get themselves into fights and then cry for help when struck back. I saw a clip of an indian game show that showed that off lol, she tells the guy to fuck himself and he basically responds "no u" and she freaks out and slaps him, with no hesitation he slaps her back. Then suddenly he is clearly the bad guy and everyone on screen looks at him like a madman. He starts saying how she hit him first as a bunch of guys rush on stage to attack him and comfort the girl. I actually just found the clip if you want to watch that instead.
@devilman666 watching this make me feel as men we deserve everything that happens to us. it's wrong to hit a woman but it's perfectly fucking fine for a gang of men to jump one guy. these are just idiots
Probably not dead but definitely declined. And that's good. Women don't deserve special treatment just for being women. If I can open the door or sit in a chair then so can she.
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