Do you like the MGTOW movement?

[Anonymous]

(Men going their own way)
I’m a mgtow. I don’t hate women. Raised by an amazing mother! 3 amazing sisters. Women are great!

I find women very attractive. I’m supposedly an attractive guy. Kind of normal for men that I’ve never had any attention from women despite not putting myself out there. I’m not angry, I’m neutral! It’s like, it is what it is. Accept you’re not good enough and adapt!

I’ve discovered that in life no one can make you happy. You have to make yourself happy. Which is why I think it’s a great movement.

I think adding a woman to my life would add problems. I’m also trying to start my career soon which will give me a lot of satisfaction.

As long as I stay social and with my family I won’t be lonely. Although I am an only son, which might be sad when my parents realise I’ve changed my mind.

I hate it

It’s fine

It’s good

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

No, I'm definitely no fan of MGTOW. As I mentioned before, the MGTOW movement is nothing more than men "going their own way" because they can't have their own way. Instead of being introspective and developing the wisdom to find and maintain healthy lasting relationships, MGTOW often blame women for their own personal problems and give up on relationships. Many times, their inability to find relationships or maintain them is a result of their own character flaws. They convinced themselves that relationships are harmful for men instead of looking in the mirror and admitting their own cowardice and insecurities. Yet, instead of actually "going their own way" and enjoying their single lives without women, they spend most of their time online bashing and complaining about women. The extra time they spend online could be devoted to becoming more sexually appealing, socially skilled, and confident around women, which could improve their luck with relationships.

Yet, they much rather spend their time bitching and moaning about having to pay for dates, alimony, divorce rates, feminism, and why many women aren't attracted to their little 5-inch and below penis. It proves that they desperately want women in their lives, but fail to make it happen because of a lack of effort. Instead, many of them believe that because they're "nice guys," they're entitled to sex. When they don't get that sex or get rejected in general, they give up on women and start bashing them. While I personally don't identify as a feminist, I realize that many MGTOW often blame feminism for their problems too. The existence of feminism can't stop a man from finding a compatible woman. The MGTOW movement also does nothing to help men. Instead, it encourages men to be quitters and give up easily. A real man never gives up when the going gets tough. He solves whatever problem he faces in life and achieves his goal, something that MGTOW doesn't encourage. Instead, MGTOW is just a movement that harbors weak, pathetic men. The good news is that because MGTOW aren't in relationships, the weak men would be bred out of existence.

[Msgaïj]

Actually, you perfecly describe incels. But not MGTOW.
As he said, he isn't angry about womens. He just think he don't need a women in his life.

[Jdkjfj]

Either way you sound like a horrible bitter woman. Hopefully you get bred out of existence. You’re ugly asf too. Who would breed you 🤮 shouldn’t you be a wgtow with all that hate directed to men.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@Msgaïj: There isn't that much of a difference between incels and MGTOW. Incels typically become MGTOW. Adding a woman in your life won't automatically add problems unless you made a poor choice. The thing is that life has its problems in general, even if you don't add any women (or anybody) to your life. Giving up on something simply because it can add problems is a sign of weakness because shows a lack of willpower to deal with issues in life.
@Jdkjfj: There is no hate directed towards men in my post. It's simply critical of a movement that harbors weak men and encourages them to give up instead of solving their problems. By the way, I don't see any picture of you on this site. I doubt you're attractive yourself. If you were, you surely wouldn't be a MGTOW supporter.

[Msgaïj]

@Tiffany_Taylor_Made
I know a proverb wich say "living with someone is meant to solve problems you didn't had if you were alone". I feel it perfect for what you just said.

And some people, believe it or not, don't want to be with someone (a women) because they didn't want to complex their life. More, I seen it in an other comment, keep kicking a dog and he won't come back. You have to understand that, on men's side, relationships are not that far of a big mind game. And some men just don't want to play this game, so they do what they want to do without losing their minds with womens. For the best and the worst.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

My point was that life would give you problems regardless, whether you are alone or not. You shouldn't avoid something because it can give you problems. You solve whatever problems you face in life like a real man does. I had problems in life too, whether with guys or alone. Some guys gave me problems. I never gave up on guys though.

[VanillaSalt]

See this is your problem you think men are avoiding women. I work with women sometimes. I talk with women. I say hi to women. I just don’t give a damn to pursue women. Your not worth it. It’s not avoidance we’re just not chasing. You women are just gonna have to pursue if you want something otherwise I guess that means your not willing to fight for it.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: If you're not pursuing women, then you're avoiding them. Talking to women at work isn't the same thing. Either way, you saying women aren't worth it is interesting. Why aren't women worth it to you then? As far as I'm concerned, it's natural for people to experience sexual attraction and have the desire to gratify such urges with the people they're attracted to. Sex is perhaps the best biological urge a person can experience. It's natural for many people to want kids and start a family. Of course, we wouldn't be born if this wasn't the case. It's natural for people to want a life companion that they can confide in, care for, help with their problems in life, and fulfill their sexual fantasies. Assuming that you're a straight man, what could possibly be more worth it than this? By the way, women don't have to pursue anything. For every man that chooses to go MGTOW and avoid women, we are still approached by many more men that actually think it's worth it. If you view this MGTOW movement as a "boycott" of women so to speak, note that it's failing miserably because good men still approach us. The only people hurt the most by this "boycott" are MGTOW themselves because they devote much of their time being bitter towards the very women they're supposedly ignoring. MGTOW actually does women a favor because it keeps the weak men away from them.

[VanillaSalt]

“What could possibly be more worth it then this.” You think women are pretty important... and yet men are happy to live their lives away from women in many cases. I have friends I can confide in. I can adopt if I want to go that route with kids. I can fulfill sexual fantasies with a prostitute if that’s when I want.

All the things you bring I can get anywhere else. I still get laid without pursuing. It’s not worth the effort or money to invest in women because it’s a bad business decision. Sure the reward if it works out is high but it’s like playing the lottery. Besides I was kicked out of the game forcibly a long time ago and have just got used to being alone so I can live like this just fine.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: That's exactly my point. You said that women aren't worth it because "it's a bad business decision." Guess what? Life can be full of "bad business decisions" if you lack effort and wisdom. The possibility exists that your friends aren't truly your friends or that they can betray you. The possibility exists that the kids you adopt could develop with emotional issues upon realizing their true parents never wanted them. The possibility exists that you can an STD or, at worst, set up by a prostitution. The point is all the alternatives to women that you listed could be a "bad business decision." Yet, for some reason, you choose those over finding a woman that truly loves you for you, cares for you, is loyal to you, and is willing to fulfill those sexual urges that humans naturally want. You can live just fine with that too. The thing is, it takes effort and wisdom to find such a relationship. The main reason I don't like MGTOW is because it doesn't encourage men to put in effort and have wisdom. Instead, it encourages men to be weak quitters and pussies that only focus on the negative consequences. Simply put, I can't respect any man like that.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

The possibility exists that you can catch an STD or, at worst, be set up by a prostitute.* That's what I meant to say.

[VanillaSalt]

What effort do you put into dating? It’s my money that pays for dates. I have to expend significantly more time and effort to get the date. Enlighten me what you do that I value. Also I made many attempts to be cheated on 3 times. But I should keep moving along. If a woman gets raped 3 times you gonna call her out for being afraid of men? No course you won’t. When shit fails it’s not you that pays it’s me. Besides the only reason I wanted a wife was kids. If I’m still not “worthy” of these women now I’m not gonna spend the next several years making it so they can come in and take part of my success without effort and little chance of a healthy kid.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: You put in effort by determining whether the person truly loves you for you. For instance, you determine if the woman still wants you despite your financial situation and gives as often as she takes. You use the first initial dates to get a good idea of her personality. You put in effort to determine if she's the type to communicate well with you. Good communication can reduce the likelihood of her cheating on you. During those dates, talk to her about her previous relationships and ask her why they ended. From there, you can get a good idea if she was the victim or the problem. If she appears to be problem, move on because you don't want those problems. You determine if the woman you're with actually makes sacrifices to be with you.

If she truly didn't give up much of anything to be with you, then she can just as easily leave you. I can go on. The point is you put in effort by knowing who you are as a person and finding a woman that is compatible with that. The thing is, it's not easy, but life isn't easy. If you want something in life, you have to work hard to obtain it. My problem with MGTOW is that it doesn't encourage men to do that. It harbors a collection of men that give up on women and then whine, bitch, and moan about women instead of encouraging men to put in effort to becoming better men and finding better partners. (Almost every MGTOW topic, website, Reddit board, YouTube channel, or whatever is anti-woman). A woman getting raped three times is not a good reason for a woman to avoid men because not all men are rapists. There are plenty of great men out there that women deserve to be with. However, such women also must have the effort and wisdom to find them and make relationships with them work too, just as men should with women. If only MGTOW encouraged that, then I would 100% support it.

[VanillaSalt]

You misunderstand. What effort are YOU forced to put out to get a date? And nvm the dating aspect. I know what I need to do once I’m dating the fact is it’s men that have to pursue.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: I devote my natural effort of being loving, caring, kind, and loyal to any man that I'm with and into. Still, I have to put in much of the same effort that I listed. I have to make sure that the guy I'm dating doesn't intend to use me for sex and actually wants a long-term relationship. I also have to determine whether or not the guy is more of a giver or a taker, the reasons he and his ex girlfriends broke up to determine if he was the problem or victim, and determine whether or not he is trustworthy and loyal. I have to determine if he is kind and not abusive or controlling. I also have to determine whether or not he made sacrifices to be with me to uncover how seriously he takes the relationship. If I don't do any of these things, I could wind up in a toxic relationship and have no one to blame but myself for lacking the wisdom to do better. With this, I would never give up on men no matter what. Like I said, you have to put in effort to determine whether or not the woman truly loves you and is compatible with you.

[VanillaSalt]

This I comprehend but like you said both sides have to do this same process.. let me word this differently.

Men have to jump through hoops to get a date sometimes. Well often. Meanwhile what do you do?

The effort once dating is equal but the effort before and the possible and extremely highly likely consequences after couldn’t be more different.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: For me to get a date, I have to be attractive. Otherwise, no men would ever approach me with the intent of dating me unless they were desperate. People that date out of desperation usually don't have healthy relationships. As for consequences, if I don't chose wisely, I could be used for sex and ghosted, verbally and physically abused, given an STD if he cheated on me, made a single mother if I had children, or, at worse, even possibly killed considering that men have a much higher rate than women of killing their spouses/partners. Thus, yes, I have to put in a lot of effort and be wiser with my choices as well, but I would never give up on men no matter what.

[VanillaSalt]

What is attractive? You can wear makeup to cover imperfections. You can be short and it’s a plus. You can get away with being broke. You can get away being unintelligent as long as your hot. As a woman you have basically all the power. And this is the real problem.

Women think men blow dates and cheat breaking relationships. Average looking men don’t even get dates. They get shot down because their short. Because they don’t make enough money. Because they don’t drive a truck. Because they don’t own their home. Average men don’t even get a chance. And so women can’t see average they only see above average. Proven statistic 80:20 rule. 80% of women date the top 20% of guys. They have unreal expectations. Men don’t experience dating. These men can’t get a date so how are they supposed to improve. Your telling these men keep trying because you need us. I spent 2 years actively on dating apps an hour a day even paying for premiums which men pay more for by the way. Guess how man matched and dates I went on in 2 years. I really wanna know how many you think I achieved. The apps were tinder, okcupid, and match.

The major point is most men are turned down without being given a chance to show what they got. Young men don’t know what to improve because their being outright ignored. Have you ever failed before you started?

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: Attractiveness is being sexually appealing to most men. Men have a whole rating system for women. If we're not a "perfect 10" or close, men aren't interested in us unless they're desperate. If our face isn't attractive, women are pressured into plastic surgery to improve it. If our titties aren't big enough, men are not attracted, which pressures women into implants. If we have a flat ass, men pay absolutely no attention to us whatsoever. It pressures women into butt injections. If our hair isn't long, men are turned off. If we have "outie" vaginas, men are disgusted. If we get older and show even a few slight signs of aging compared to our teen years and 20s, then we "hit the wall" and "lost our value." I can go on. The main reason money isn't important for women to have in relationships is because of the idea that men should be head of the household.

As for average looking men not dating, that's false. Short men, average looking men, and men with regular 9-5s date often. Being tall, a male model, loaded with money, or a homeowner isn't a requirement for love. Most people (in America at least) are renters and plenty of them are in relationships. It's just that men are more attractive when they're able to support themselves financially rather than still live with their mom at 30+. It's not about me telling men to "keep trying" because women need men. It's to help these men become stronger, achieve their love-finding goals, and self-improve, something MGTOW isn't teaching men. My point is, instead of complaining about how women supposedly don't accept "average" men, work harder on yourself to become above average. Improve your personality, social skills, ability to make a good first impression, work out and get a sexually appealing physique, be ambitious, and work on becoming a more loving, caring, kind, and loyal person. It just seems like you're just making excuses, which is the highlight of MGTOW.

[Msgaïj]

Seems like I missed a lot.
I won't agree the beginning of your message. I'm not an average man in the sex topic because this isn't in my interests, so I won't discuss anything about outie, ass or tities. On the other side, 10/10 girls are the top, but mens can easily be satisfied with a 6. The pressure upon women's body is more applied between womens than from men. And don't believe that we (mens) only consider physical. It's important but not the only thing that make a girl attractive. For example, my ex-girlfriend was a 9, but mentally sick. (Really bad things happened to her, I won't detail here). It didn't last long, maybe 3 weeks.
More than that, I don't know anyone (and any man) who ever considered to push someone to do plastic surgery.
The fact that womens get older touch mens too, but not the same way. When mens become attractive, around 27-30, womens become less attractive than their 20-25. Before, 25, it's easier for a girl to find a man. After, it's the opposite.
The fact that we are attracted to younger-looking womens is something as old than fear of dark. A younger woman can bear more childs than an old one.

Ps: higher in the messages, vanilla tell that he can have friends for social needs. To this, your response is that friends can betray. But womens don't?
(by the way you can have more than one friend, and not more than one girlfriend )

[VanillaSalt]

Still didn’t guess how many dates I got while actively trying to better myself and being on multiple dating apps. I’ll just answer. In 2 your I got 1 date and 2 matches. Tell me it’s not all about looks when you consider that. Sure in person dating gives more information like body language but it’s still biased against men.

[Msgaïj]

Can't deny. I don't and never used dating apps , so my only experience is others' . But I've seen this example a lot with my boys friends and the amount of like of my girls friends

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@Msgaïj: The point of my post was that women being attractive is very important for men. Unless men are desperate, they wouldn't give unattractive women the time of day. Thus, there's much pressure for women to look attractive to get dates. Also, men aren't truly happy with women that they consider a "6/10." If anything, they are tolerating her at best. Your post basically proves my point, as you have a whole number system rating women's looks and believe that women are less attractive when they're older than 25. Men tend to hold women to much higher standards regarding looks compared to the standards women hold for men. The standards women typically have for men are characteristics men can work for, such as a leaner body, higher income to support himself and not live with his parents, good social skills, and so on. A women can't work for a prettier face, bigger ass, bigger titties, curvy/hourglass shape, and a perfectly symmetrical vagina. Most of the things that men typically require from women require surgery. As for what @VanillaSalt said about friends, the point of my post was to respond to him saying that women were a "bad business deal." I just simply responded with the fact that friends could be a bad business deal as well if you don't choose them wisely. Thus, you're unlikely to have a bad business deal with women or friends if you simply put some effort in choosing your friends and women wisely.

[VanillaSalt]

Still not touching on what I said even close. At what point does my effort matter? I could continue to improve for years and not find someone at this rate. And the issues that turned me off dating are issues that many men deal with but you just want us too jump back on the horse life there’s no risk to us. Unlike women I can make a god business decision and I choose single. Especially because of women like you so sure you have it harder and worse completely unable to understand things from men’s perspective.

Nothing you said today was correct. Not only that you said because I’m willing to settle on looks I’m desperate. Well not desperate enough to bother with someone like you I guess.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: You decide when your effort matters. The possibility exists that you can improve and find a compatible woman. Your problem is that you dwell on negativity and pessimism. I understand that many men deal with issues when dating, but real men solve their issues and find better partners, not completely give up on women. Sure, nothing is wrong with choosing to be single, but the possibility still exists that you can be miserable while you're single. You also said the reason women "aren't worth it" is because you felt it was a "bad business decision." The possibility exists that you could also make "good business decision" by choosing a compatible woman wisely with some effort. However, your problem is you don't consider the good possibilities or want to put in the work. It is pessimism and a defeatist nature regarding women that MGTOW only harbors. When talking about men's preferences for looks, I wasn't talking about you specifically. You asked me what women had to do to get dates. I said they had to be attractive, which is definitely true. The truth is looks are extremely important for men in general. Men that don't care about how the woman looks tend to be desperate. You said, "not desperate enough to bother with someone like you." You know, it's pretty uncalled for to be insulting towards me. I was respectful towards you. You're the one that felt the need to reply to answer first. I just simply responded by explaining how I felt that MGTOW has too much of a negative influence on your mindset towards women. Either way, our conservation has only strengthened my views on MGTOW.

[VanillaSalt]

Are you saying it’s insulting to be called a woman like you? If so you might consider what’s so insulting about your life.

And yes I meant it derogatory. You think it’s men’s job just to power through it and when they get tired of the normal you put down something they believe in. You think every single mgtows some kinda incel? How did they get this way. They grouped up in how they feel and you put it down instead of making change. Maybe if many of one group feel a certain way there’s some kind of merit to how they feel. I’m not desperate enough to date a woman like you who can’t see outside what she believes.

You seem intelligent and I found it difficult to argue with many of your points... but I can’t agree either. Your still wrong somehow. For all the effort I’ve put into improving it’s gotten me nothing but a better life for myself. I’m no closer to a family so instead I chose to focus on myself and end this pathetic attempt to find someone to share my life with. I don’t see real women anymore. A woman is trying to legalize prostitution. A woman started #killallmen. A women started the whole metoo movement. My ex’s cheated. My mother and her friends are trash. I don’t see this class of woman you say exists. The women on here are aggressive and idiotic. The women on dating apps where they supposedly looking for a quality guy are even more stupid than all that if you read some of their profiles. So where are they? These women with whom I’m supposed to improve for? Do I have to wait until I’ve build a comfortable life THEN when she’s ready settle with her?

If that’s the case datings not what I thought it was and I don’t want any part of it.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@VanillaSalt: You said that you weren't desperate enough to deal with a woman like me, as if doing so must mean you must be desperate to do so. It doesn't matter though. I don't care too much about insults. I was just slightly perplexed that you did it when I wasn't insulting you. Regardless, I think it's normal for people in general to power through it rather than cower through it. Also, I don't believe in incels. I don't think people can truly be "involuntary celibates" unless they're physically incapable of having sex. "Incels" exist because they simply gave up, focused too much on women that were likely to reject them, or lacked the confidence and courage to put themselves out there for dating. Because of that, I don't view incels and MGTOW as much different. The only real difference is that MGTOW are more likely to have had some success with relationships before whatever negative event happened that caused them to avoid women.

Either way, both are mired by pessimism and lack of desire to take action to improve their situation, instead opting to complain and bicker. Either way, it sounds you just have a lot of personal problems. You don't have a positive view of women, think they're stupid if they have different views to you, and you think your own mother is trash. That says a lot about you, the MGTOW movement, and why you probably struggled with dates. Yet, I'm willing to bet that you probably consider yourself a "nice guy." It proves that the problems that many MGTOW guys have are not actually problems that men in general face or even problems caused by women and feminism, but rather your own personal demons. You literally just confirmed everything about MGTOW in my answer.

[LionKing65]

Tiffany, You fail to grasp our reasoning as to why we refuse to expend the 'effort'.
Posted a few thoughts today on the opinion section for your perusal.

[VanillaSalt]

Not that it’s any of your business but my mother was and is today a druggie and drunk who used me and the whole family to get her next fix. My family abandoned me because I was associated with her. My ex’s were cheating little whores and I don’t even care enough about them to hope they suffer for it. no it’s this high and mighty attitude women have today that I dislike. But your idiocy hurts my head I’m not responding anymore.

[Billlewis]

Yes, ma'am, I agree with you wholeheartedly. So called 'men' shouldn't be trying to go their own way, they should be going wherever the woman in their life tells them to at the snap of her fingers.

[SnowyOwl]

"Accept you’re not good enough and adapt" Look, You can live life as you wish, but... what do you mean 'adapt'? Adapt to the concept of inferiority? Is that how one gets better? I dont believe so, not at all. I think its important to have a vision that makes you happy and strive for it, even if life is a learning journey and we dont always know precisely how we will get to our vision, a great life --> one that you are satisfied about, one that you are proud of, one that allows tru joy, well... that is a life of risk. You cannot live a great life if you don't step out of your comfort zone. In fact, stay in the comfort zone and you will always have a feeling that something is missing. And im sorry but that is not a good life. that is mediocrity. Most people live like that because fear keeps them from taking the 'risks' that will improve their lives. You know why fear as a collective mentality is widely accepted? Because we're more controllable that way. We're more susceptible to being good consumers/clients of all entities out there... It doesn't matter who you are, what skills, talents, gifts you have, waht your education or career has been or not been... comply to inferiority, and you guarantee yourself life of mediocrity. But maybe if you just ignore my post you'll be happy too, at least maybe you can convince your brain of it.

You also have the choice though, of creating a vision for a life that excites you, whatever that is. If you want to ever recognize the path you must take when you'll come to a fork in the road (and lets face it, there's plenty of those in life), well then you have to know where you want to go. Even if you dont have a map, at least you'll have a better sense of the path that could take you to where you want to go, and you'll recognize an opportunity when it presents itself.

You mention that you don't want a relationship, and that makes sense that you might not be able to invest yourself in it if you are starting you career (studies, or your business, whatever it is). But if you think it will make your family unhappy, wouldn't that ultimately make you unhappy? I don't know, im just asking. Did you consider you can have both a great career and great relationship? A happy life is about balance, you know. You can just leave an area of your life behind. Did you consider there might be someone who is also very career focused and may still want a relationship, and that could be someone that is compatible with you? I mean, there's bound to be someone out of 7.6 billion people out there. If you close your mind to the possibility, you might not recognize the opportunity when it presents itself. But it is possible for you to have everything that will make you happy, did you consider that? How about adapting to that idea? Its all really about your mindset. I hear so many people saying mind over body. So if your mind determines your physical reality, why settle for less? Be careful what you believe.

Honestly, i wish you the best.

[cth96190]

I tried.
I failed.
I walked away.
I was and had everything that women were supposed to want.
I was lied to.
Women wanted ‘exciting’ bad boys, not me.
I decided that the bad boys could have the women. They deserved one another.

[SnowyOwl]

@cth96190 we're only defeated when we stop trying

[thothahuramazda]

Don't work for free. Contribute to the sex robot. Woman says I love you give your money. Robot says I love you how are you honey. Big difference.

[cth96190]

@SnowyOwl
I have a more pragmatic outlook.
The first principle of military tactics is to fight only the battles that can be won.
As a former army officer, I operate on sound tactical principles.
After close to 20 years of near 100 per cent rejection, as well as heartbreak caused by the few women who pretended to be interested, I had to face the evidence-based conclusion that the search for a woman to love was a battle that I could not win.
Women wanted ‘exciting’ shitbags and that was not me.
So, to preserve what little was left of my heart, I withdrew from the field.
I will not pretend that it does not hurt. It hurts a lot.
For decades I have had long conversations with my favourite pistol.
As awful as that may sound, it hurts less than when women who pretended to love me broke my heart.
Tonight I sit in my seven-figure home, with my German SUV parked in the garage, surrounded by rescue animals, trying to decide whether or not I will wake tomorrow morning.
The animals have been provided for in my will.

[SnowyOwl]

@cth96190
I'm sorry if things didn't work out how you wanted them to..
and im sorry you've been hurt.
I may be young, but i do understand hurt. I really do...
And i know that living in my past will never serve me. I can certainly learn from it. But I will not live it. The present is where new opportunity resides and is constanly bringing new beginings. And I know its up to me to Show Up, and open those doors towards what could be the best thing in my life.

I dont think we should ever be done trying...
Living intentionally is probably the most challenging thing we are here to learn how to achieve.
But you have a choice of what you hold on to. Its always your own choice. It may be hard to truly open up your heart after so much heart. But you do have that choice. Imagine if you could achieve that. That would mean you would have become extremely resilient, that your will to strive would have become bulletproof. With 20 years of experience in the field, you know very well how to recognize that which does not serve you. You'll know who to dismiss right away. I think you have everything you need to succeed.
The last thing to do is make that choice. To switch your mindset. Life is a never ending journey (: I think that is the best part about it

[LionKing65]

Snowy Owl: To consider defeat as a positive outcome in a particular event is not always a bad thing. It can often be very useful to add clarity to future actions and decisions. To simply not 'try' is not to be defeated if the objective of the effort is not valued over the cost of pursuit of said objective. Example, I do not choose to travel 1,000km to pluck a ripe tomato no matter how amazing the tomato.
I reason I am better off to expend effort and 'try' for something I value more than the amazing tomato.

Sometimes, to not waste time and energy to 'try' for something that is not real and has no intrinsic value is better option than to chase an illusion.

[MCheetah]

It's okay. I tried going MGTOW *several* times, as I've been burnt by women too many times and my height, combined with my lack of looks, complexion, body (and even penis size, if we're going there), and smart-ass personality means I'm never going to find another woman on this Earth who would EVER genuinely like me.

Women only seek out men they can benefit from and gain something off him for themselves (ego, positivity, humor, wealth, protection and security, maybe even sex, etc). I don't have anything women want in modern men; size, looks, wealth, or ego. So I 100% totally get the MGTOW movement. I guess I'm just too stubborn to give up completely. I'll say there's a 99.9% chance I won't find a woman out there, because modern women are (quite frankly) picky and entitled as sh*t, and being a decent guy with potential isn't good enough anymore.

Because of that 0.1% however, I cannot call myself a MGTOW. I still want female love an companionship, even if women are unwilling to give it to me or I'm always deemed "unworthy" of it because of superficial bullsh*t reason X, Y, and Z. I decided recently (like a year or two ago) I'm just going to work on myself, and stop chasing after women for the foreseeable future. But I'm not giving up on the possibility (no matter how nearly impossible it is) of a quality woman liking me for who I am, flaws and all. Despite being a f*cking manlet; despite being Ice Cube level ugly, despite being overweight, and despite having a useless-in-bed penis. Women are more trouble than they're worth it seems. But I'll never be able to give up that impossible fantasy of love and a relationship. So I cannot call myself MGTOW. But I certainly get it.

[Unit1]

I really don't like MGTOW but I do not hold anything against individual MGTOW members.

What makes me judge them is their obsession of women and attacking not only womankind but normal hetereosexual men, who seek a female romantic partner and relationships with women (like since when was it wrong to want love?). How are these MGTOWs now different from the female misandrists?

https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/women-were-made-for-adultery/

https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/you-really-think-she-loves-you/

https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/all-women-are-gold-diggers/

https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/women-who-gives-a-fuck/

https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/women-are-never-happy/

https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/just-listen-to-them-talk/

After all that the only image I have for those MGTOWs is nothing but "misogynistic losers".

[Heiniken]

See there are extremists who do believe in some of this shit. Just like there are some Trump supporters who are proud boy racists. The few extreme individuals that lay out a bad name for the group as a whole.

[Unit1]

@Heiniken
And that goes for anything. Toxicity. Fits wherever it can.

[LionKing65]

Tiffany, well spoken your opinion and views, however there is one aspect you fail to consider in any of your posts.

You have not provided a compelling reason as to the 'why' I should expend 'effort' to satisfy a need of dating or relationship fodder for any particular woman or women in the general sense.

- The concept of 'love' is not a compelling reason to engage. I love myself quite nicely thank you. What benefit does the concept of 'love' from a woman offer to me?

- A relationship for sake of children offer no further value to me as I can adopt any number of children in need of a good home and life, that have been abandoned by a woman and left to be wards of the state. (Hence, 'responsibility' is a two edged sword and often overlooked by those who choose to disparage the MGTOW movement)

- The idea of responsibility? responsibility to whom? A woman, or to myself?

Tiffany, I was married to a woman of entitlement mentality for 22 years before I finally came to the realization it was a losing game to continue to engage with her. Therefore I divorced and now live personal freedom. This freedom of course, aside from 50% of my assets paid at settlement and monthly support payments until I am 70 years of age, to the tune of $5,500 per month.
(Yes I make an extremely good living and always have. I am over 6' tall and full head of hair. My ex-wife was a leisure beachwear and clothing model for more than 10 years before I met her. When we initially married, she ceased to work another day and still does not. Thankfully no children were produced during our time together as divorce of us as parents would have been very hard on them)

Please explain in a reasoned, logical sense, where and why my 'effort' should be expended in any way for these perceived benefits of a relationship. I find companionship with nature and the independence with love of traveling and an active lifestyle a much more persuasive point of argument.

The MGTOW movement may have some elements of weak individuals within it just as any philosophical movement does. That said, the vast majority of those I have encountered that ascribe their mindset to the MGTOW philosophies are just the exact opposite of your perception of us. To your contrary, many are very strong and courageous, kind and supportive. Just not interested in the associated risks of fraternizing with women these days in a long term sense such as creation of a home or family with a woman.

Yes, many of us date on occasion if asked appropriately by a woman we find interesting. We just choose not to engage beyond something completely plutonic and benign. Think 'friends having a coffee' if that assists in the visualization.

Many of us merely choose not to expose our hearts, minds or financial security to the threats of loss or damage. This is why we have realized as a culture of reasoning men, modern relationships as they have always been, are a business decision. As a man responsible for the jobs / families of over 2,500 people globally, I examine risk on a daily basis and find these interpersonal risk of relationships with women beyond a casual coffee here and there, to be excessive risk and not worth my 'effort'.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@LionKing65: My issue with MGTOW doesn't concern men's personal reasons for "needing" a relationship. My issue with MGTOW concerns why such men refuse to pursue relationships. Regarding love, love has many benefits. The same love you have for yourself obviously benefits you. However, a woman can love you the same way that you love yourself, which also has positive benefits. Though, my issue isn't how a woman's love benefits you. My question to you is this; why do you specifically refuse a woman's love? Regarding children, I noticed you said adopt a child that has "been abandoned by a woman." This implies some sort of bias towards women. I say that because, based on you asking me to come up with "compelling reasons" to answer your questions, I assume you see yourself as a rational man. However, any rational person knows that men can also abandon children, that children could become orphans because of family deaths, or family members could be unfit to raise children because of issues such as bad health, mental illness, addiction, etc., and other things. That "abandoned by a woman" part is very telling. Again, my issue is not about what value that children in a relationship offer you. My issue is why do you specifically refuse to have children with a woman that loves you? Why can't you have children with your own seed with a loving woman AND still help children by adopting them? Is this refusal the result of a possible bias towards women? If so, why?

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@LionKing65: As for responsibility, every adult should be responsible for his or her own actions. That's simple. As for the divorce, you married a woman with an entitlement mentality that probably valued the money more than you and you stayed with her for 22 years. You said she stopped working when she married, presumably to become a housewife. This basically increases the chances of her taking half in a divorce because it shows that she depends entirely on you. In this case, "effort" is important because with it, you can distinguish between women that love you for you rather than your money. For example, I'm engaged to a great guy right now. If COVID never happened, we would have been married by now. Still, before I met him, I've had many bad relationships. I've been cheated on, lied to, humiliated (had some exes leak nudes I've sent them), verbally, mentally, and physically abused, used for sex, ghosted, and so on.

Despite that, I never gave up on men or told myself I would be better off without them. Instead, I put effort into finding better men by considering characteristics that good men are likely to have and chose men with them. Doing so improved my relationships with men dramatically. However, it took extra rationality and, of course, effort. This means effort is very valuable because it can help you choose better partners in the future. Thus, my question regarding that is this; why do you specifically refuse to put in effort to find a woman that truly loves you for you rather than your money and assets? Assuming that you worked for your success and didn't have it inherited, a man like you should value hard work and effort. Is your refusal to put in effort to find a better woman the result of quitting and taking the easy route? Please explain.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@LionKing65: You mentioned you enjoy the companionship of traveling, an active lifestyle, and nature, but my question is why you specifically reject traveling, enjoying nature, and an active lifestyle with a woman that truly loves you? Again, my issue isn't why you feel you need it. My issue is why do you reject it. The problem with your claims about MGTOW is that it's not a "philosophical movement." It's literally a movement of men that quit relationships. When you get to the meat and potatoes of why they quit, you often learn much about these men's personal problems exposing why they have issues with women. My problem with MGTOW is, instead of people in the movement encouraging men to solve these problems, they choose to dwell on them and give up. To me, that's not a sign of strength. That's being defeatist. For example, take your life success, which I would use as an analogy. Chances are good you worked hard for your money and it was worth it.

MGTOW is akin to a poor guy working hard to become successful, but he failed. Somewhere along the way, he gave up after that failure and decided he didn't need to be successful. He then claims that he's content with being poor. That's a sign of defeatism. If he was strong and ambitious, he would continue putting in the effort, working hard, finding something that he's good at, and become successful rather than settle for less. That's a sign of strength. In the end, it seems to boil down to you believing that relationships are a "business decision" and you're worried about financial losses. However, that's just not always true. Plenty women exist that would love you for you, but it requires effort to find them. My question is, why do you, a man that likely put in effort to become financially successful, refuse to put in effort to find this woman?

[LionKing65]

@Tiffany_Taylor_Made Not a bias. Simply observation of the facts. In certain communities in the United States, the vast majority of children are born out of wedlock and to single mothers. (quite a few times I have been asked out on a date by a single mother. Some were quite nice, however I ask why I should be responsible for another man's child when I can adopt one that has been abandoned)

As to the circumstances of abandonment, you are correct in one sense in that to conceive a child requires participation of a man & a woman. That said, if the woman makes a poor choice in the father of this child and leaves him or he leaves her, she is responsible to raise the child on her own or give it up "abandon" the child to the state or religious organization to raise this child so she can go on with her life without the child. Not saying this is wrong as it is always situationally specific to circumstances. If she gives up this child due to drugs or other addiction, then what does this say about the woman?
In my travels throughout the world, I have seen women raising a child on their own in circumstances FAR, FAR WORSE than those found in the United States and they are doing the right thing to raise the child or children to the best way possible. Example: I came to know a woman from Venezuela that came to America with her three children when she escaped the communists there which took over the country much in the way they are trying to do here in America, bit by bit until it is too late. She came with NOTHING and over the last four years, working 3 jobs, she has purchased her first home. I am so proud of her and helped her out with the down payment a bit when she was short a few thousand dollars for closing costs. She did not abandon her children even though she came here without good command of the language or any prospects other than entry level jobs when she arrived. She worked hard and still does and I admire that very much.

[LionKing65]

@Tiffany_Taylor_Made ex wife when I married her, was making $300,000+ per year as a model and her real estate investments and this was in 1990's which is equivalent to double that in today's dollars due to inflationary monetary policy of our government. She had her own money at that time. She chose to not work after we married so as to pursue her leisure activities. I earned enough money that our lifestyles together were not diminished by her not working.

As to inheriting it, I inherited nothing as both parents are still living. I earned every penny of it and started with less than $500 I scraped together to start my first company. At that time, I did not even have enough money to pay my rent at the end of the month when I started that first company. I managed to make it and keep all the bills paid. I am self made completely.

As to 'quitting' and taking the easy route, your question is improperly framed from my point of view.
It is not taking a perceived 'easy route', it is a choice to preserve what I have accomplished as well as guard my heart and mind to unnecessary risks.
I simply do not see the benefit or value in establishing relationships with anyone when compared to the certain risks associated with such relationships based solely on my extensive life experience; i. e., repeated observations of conditions of interpersonal relationships culminating with the same result every time.
For me, it is more productive of my time, emotions and energy to focus on things which provide a tangible benefit to me and my blood family (brother, sister, parents, nieces & nephews).
Makes me happy and I enjoy life without the headaches as I think the concept of 'love' in the modern world is merely a construct to keep people focused on what society wants them to focus on, not what may be of greater usefulness to one's self as a sovereign individual.

[LionKing65]

@Tiffany_Taylor_Made I reject relationships as there is no tangible benefit to having them. I simply find I am better off without the entanglements. To attempt multiple angles of persuasion in an effort to somehow ascertain a hidden reasoning for my views, fails to grasp the obvious. I do not want relationships with anyone and I find no value or benefit in them. Full stop... no more complicated than that. All my reasoning is based on many years of life experience with a number of different relationships across multiple ethnic and cultural locations and boundaries.

MGTOW is not defeatism, it is a rationalization with individual parameters of measurement for each man. This rationalization and reasoning to adopt the 'walk away' position, is based on each man's specific life experiences. Not defeatist at all... it is merely a cost / benefit analysis with subsequent conclusion to benefit the sovereign and not the group or relationship.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@LionKing65: About the adoption thing, the point that I'm making is that children aren't always in need of adoption based on the mother's actions. This just a fact. Fathers can make mistakes and it's not always relevant to the mother's choice in men. Fathers are obligated to make good choices when raising their children, but sometimes, they can break that obligation. You also glossed right over instances I mentioned of parents dying or being unfit. The fact that you're not considering this and just blaming "abandonment" on the mother wholeheartedly shows BIAS towards women, as not all adoptees have been abandoned, and, if so, not always by mothers. If so, that's definitely a personal problem, not a problem that men generally face. Did you make more money than your wife? What exactly made her have an "entitlement mentality?" Either way, she still chose to stop working and start depending on you. That still made it easier for her to take half in the divorce, something you should have been aware of. Something is missing here though. What was the reason you divorced? Would she even have married you if you weren't successful? If not, then yes, putting effort into choosing better women is extremely important.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@LionKing65: As for you not seeing the value or benefit of relationships, you're basically afraid of taking risks based on your life experiences regarding relationships. In this case, having wisdom is important. The point is to learn from your life experiences so you can make better choices, just as I did. If I lacked wisdom, I wouldn't be engaged today because I learned how to choose better men from those experiences. Instead, you did indeed take the easy route and settled with other things that, by default, make people happy in general that didn't require much effort at all. You chose to give up on relationships based on a fear of taking risks and refusing to learn from past experiences. That's a weakness and definitely a personal problem, not a problem that men in general face. As for no tangible benefits existing for relationships, they do exist, as having a loving, caring, and helpful woman by your side can help you in many ways. I understand that you don't want relationships. My point, however, is that you have no real logical reason to avoid them either. You're simply avoiding them because you're afraid of possible consequences that could hurt you, but not considering the benefits that could help you and make you happier.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@LionKing65: My point is, though, to get those benefits, you must put in some effort, have some wisdom, and make better choices with your partners, as in be able to tell if they truly love you for who you are. That way, you wouldn't have to worry about the costs. Simply avoiding something because of possible costs is a direct sign of a defeatist mentality. There is absolutely no reason for you not to attempt this other than your own defeatist mindset that leaves you afraid taking risks. Again, this is a personal problem, not a men-in-general problem. I mention that because MGTOW argues that men are somehow better off without being in relationships with women. That's not the case. The fact is, it's only CERTAIN men with weak traits that are better off without women. Strong men don't allow the negative experiences of their life to defeat them. The problem with MGTOW is that the movement does nothing to help mend these weaknesses. Instead, it harbors them by encouraging that defeatist, quitter, "it's too risky for me" mentality and then blames women for it.

[LionKing65]

@Tiffany_Taylor_Made Clearly what I am saying is not being heard as to reasons for divorce. As to my ex-wife becoming dependent on me after we married, please explain to me why should she feel dependent when literally the month before she was personally grossing more than $28,000 per month on her own. How is her choice of pursuing a leisure position of activity somehow 'dependent' on me?
Your questions and points are simply not persuasive Tiffany as you seek only validation of your opinion based on assumptions you make and not the facts I have presented. Have a nice day.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

@LionKing65: You never explained why you divorced and what made her have an "entitlement mentality." What did your ex-wife feel that she was "entitled" to? Why did you divorce? The answers to those questions could potentially explain the settlement. As for me not being persuasive, that's your job, not mine. You claimed I was the one that didn't understand MGTOW. The primary argument made by MGTOW is that men are better off separated from women, which apparently implies that women are the problem. You haven't convinced me that men are actually better off separated from women or that women are to blame. Instead, you only confirmed everything I already said about MGTOW in my original answer. My argument was the possibility still exists that you could be happy with a woman that truly loves you for you and that you could find her if you had wisdom and put in the effort.

Instead, you refused, saying that relationships are "business decisions" and are too risky for you. I explained that if you actually chose a woman that truly loves you for you, then it wouldn't be a "business decision." Yet, you refuse to accept that point. Refusing to take an action that could potentially make you happier simply because you fear the risks and refusing to lower those risks by working harder and smartening up is indeed a defeatist mentality. As I said earlier, this is a personal problem that's holding you back because not every man has this mentality, and women aren't to blame for this defeatist mentality that you have. Therefore, you haven't actually convinced me that MGTOW is somehow good for men. You literally just confirmed that it dwells on the weaker traits of men instead of helping them get stronger.

[btbc92]

The intent and the hypocrisy is the problem. If you're going to be celibate, you don't need to go your own way or prove that you don't need women in your life romantically. A healthy male doesn't have to have a woman in his life, but he doesn't use his 'singleness' as a reason to attack people either. At first, I respected the idea. But when I looked at the main webpage, hearing how these guys think, It's just male feminism extremist cult nonsense. At first, it sounds innocent, but the deeper you go, forget it. I have heard of a few guys on here who had to realize how toxic it was. And I tell you, it makes the good men who just wanted a support system look bad who is MGTOW. The same can be for feminists. We know the majority are not stable minded women. But few who just want 'equality' don't have to use feminism to prove it.

While it is your choice to be involved romantically with somebody or not. You don't need to use that tE\o seek attention. Because if your doing it means you DO want romantic relationships and your hiding by rejection and fear from poor experiences to basically make you feel better. I mean it's still on you. But what's worse is that you keep attracting those women who abuse you, and women, in general, won't understand you or feel the need to date you.

Your biggest issue is your focus too much on how attractive you look and it really doesn't matter to a good amount of women, except for those who do. If you based your self-image on what they think, then MGTOW is not your answer. God's healing and getting therapy would.

[Saauucy]

That's def one of the more reasonable responses I've heard from women.. I always just thought it mainly counterbalanced the hypocrisies of the feminists movement. Like their main purpose was to poke holes in feminist theory when it goes too far, and to counter their overcorrection. But then I kinda realized that instead of just being their to bring things to light through rhetoric, they began to become an actual grievance group, just like any other group. I don't mind reminding feminists that men actually usually don't get too much health treatment for their "issues", compared to women, but I don't actually want us to compete with women to get more attention and treatment. You know? I actually don't want men to start grievance groups and whine about how forgotten they are, even if it's justified. I want women to have that privilege, not men.. That's the main thing that I can't stand about them.

[Orangesareyummy]

@Saauucy my issue is how much hate members have for women.

[LionKing65]

@Orangesareyummy I love women!!! I just have no desire to date them or engage in a relationship with them. How removing one's self from the field is tantamount to 'hate' is a BIG stretch of logic :-/

[btbc92]

@LionKing65 It doesn't have to apply to you. I get shamed for the same thing. I just ignore them because they don't know you to make such a poor judgement.

[Orangesareyummy]

@LionKing65 actually really it’s fine. In my opinion and many others, it isn’t wise to date or engage contact with men who have issues with women. They aren’t fit to be fathers or husbands. I’m believe in the institution of marriage and am very loyal to my fiancé.

[Orangesareyummy]

Suuuure just like the NAZIs said their only objection was to uplift the German people. People who have deep rooted issues with a very large segment of the population are worse than the NAZIs because their hate spreads further. I’m glad I’m not engaged to either of you. You aren’t worthy of a family.

[LionKing65]

@Orangesareyummy if you love your fiancé, go and marry him and have a family if it makes you happy. May the good Lord bless you with much happiness in your life.
By the way, it is always interesting to me how a false premise such as the two points you just made in your two separate comments, leads a supposition to argument when there is no foundation of fact for the point being made.
Ergo, the assumption I or any other MGTOW adherent as an individual, (not as a group as MGTOW is not a group, it is a mindset) is somehow assumed to have issues with women. I don't at all. I think women are wonderful. I merely choose to earn, maintain and grow my resources / time for my own use and not for the use of others. How that equates to having an issue with a particular gender is to equate a cow to a tree as equal points of argument.

[btbc92]

@Orangesareyummy You are way off based and your showing and proving why they wouldn't want to waste time with women. Your behavior and attitude are giving all of us a bad name. How can you believe in the institution of marriage when it takes a man and a woman to make one? Please explain to me why would anybody in their right mind would marry you like this? I'm sure you wouldn't talk to your husband like this I pray not.

[btbc92]

That kind of behavior is why so many of these men have trust issues with women. I believe what God created also. But if a man marries a woman with your behavior he would wish that he didn't.

[Orangesareyummy]

It’s okay if you don’t like women. It’s better we know than date you and have you potentially beat us of mistreat us. I’ll start a family and die old with a man who loves me and wants us both to be happy and healthy. I actually don’t think you know what you’re actually talking about. I’ve been following it for several years. Have fun with porn and old age. Haha!

[btbc92]

@LionKing65 Worry not about that. I have to do the same for myself since men act the same way. I don't blame you for feeling that way. There isn't a lot of good perspective partners anymore.

[Orangesareyummy]

Nope sorry you gave yourselves a bad name. Again I’m crazy about my man and he’s crazy about me. Neither of us are rich but we work hard and will have a lovely home and family soon.

[btbc92]

@Orangesareyummy No. I think he would see that once a year of marriage to you reveals your true nature. It's not about being crazy about each other, it's about love and respect. Something your not even showing to a man you're not involved with.

[Orangesareyummy]

Sorry I meant they gave themselves a bad name. Bye. I’m in the majority too because most people have common sense. I don’t like groups that dislike all members or have issues with a large segment of the population. Grow up.

[btbc92]

@Orangesareyummy No. You need to grow up and stop acting like everything is about you. You lack empathy.

[btbc92]

Not all of them are the same. So stop judging them the same. And you want to know why they do the very thing you have just done. Have some self-awareness.

[Orangesareyummy]

See that’s why you shouldn’t belong to a group that is based on beliefs if you don’t believe in those things. I’m just saying I’m glad I found a real man who will make a good husband and father. Anyone with common sense can see MGTOW men aren’t father or husband material. Grow up sweetheart.

[Orangesareyummy]

I had all the sympathy in the world until I started digging into what they actually stand for. I don’t stand for hatred.

[Orangesareyummy]

Humans need other humans. Love is wonderful, shutting decent humans out isn’t the way. It is not healthy. They should die alone since that’s what they want.

[btbc92]

Your st ill way off based. Not everybody needs a partner and Jesus pretty much said this in the word of God. There are some that are called to marriage. Maybe that's you. There are other that are not called to marriage. Maybe that's him. And there are those like me that is capable of it but made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom. Love is something that comes from within. That's how you think that I think you're the one that is scared of dying alone and you're doing it for your own selfishness and if that's the case you are married for all the wrong reasons. The fact that you were calling them father and husband material I think you better double-check yourself because you don't sound like a mother or wife material. I've been told that but I wouldn't even did go that far because someone net. You honestly should be ashamed of yourself.

[btbc92]

You have a lot of Pride and it's very ugly.

[btbc92]

You're the one that needs to grow up. And you need to grow up very fast. Because once you get married, and you're in it, you're there for the rest of your life. I wouldn't take it as a joke as if you know everything cuz you honestly don't. You have no idea how there is serious it is to be married. Let alone to be having children and you want to be a wife and a mother. If you don't start learning how to respect the people you going to learn the hard way that marriage is no walk in the park. You finding a man is your personal business that is nothing for you to be showcasing to the world as if you're better than somebody else. Because you're proven to the world why is not worth it when people like you are constantly causing problems for other people. You have no idea what kind of experience is a promise others may be having. So I highly suggest you start being humble instead of acting like you have all the time in the world to do whatever it is that you want. Because the same good things and blessing that God can bless you if you choose to abuse it it can be taken away from you. Do I highly suggest you stop playing God in people's lives.

[btbc92]

I'm sorry you don't sound like a decent human being. You sound like a private person who just want to take advantage of other people and you want to shove that on others because you got a bigger security about being alone. You're the reason why a lot of them are like that in the first place. Not all of them are haters. They hate what you choose to do. Just like I am no man hater. But I do not like what they do. That does not give you the right to shame them because you don't know that life and you are not God to be making that decision for them. Any curses you want to try to put on people goes right back to you. Stop cursing people. If that's your behavior then you are definitely not ready for marriage until you start maturing and growing up for a 29 year old. Still acting like an immature teenager. And if you were my daughter I would not be standing for that kind of behavior. Shape up your behavior before you start having a husband that's going to grow to hate being with you. Men do not like that in women I'm warning you now. You want to be a wife and mother you better start acting like one. Before your children start mimicking your toxic Behavior.

[btbc92]

I highly suggest you postpone that marriage for quite a while until you start maturing a bit. Because how you're treating these men is how you going to treat your future husband and son and that's if you even be able to have children. Your behavior that you sadly don't see is a reflection of who he's going to marry. You are not looking to marry these men. You have your own man as you want to keep bringing up about what you have. Show signs of insecurity. So I highly suggest you start minding your own business and start minding your own relationship before you become the source and reason why it ended, and you hardly even got started. If you say you have a good man, then I highly suggest you start showing that you are deserving of him.

[SueShe]

If all men are as neutral as you are about girls when they realize that they are MGTOW, then I do indeed like this movement.

Those MGTOW members that have realized what you did are the ones that will not harass or otherwise molest girls because they came to realize that it is vain.

Being a person that does not like to be approached for the purpose of being hit on, I can only approve of those MGTOW that have made their choice and stick to it while at the same time remaining civil, polite and decent to the opposite gender.

I do agree with you that being in a relation does create more problems and conflicting situations than being alone.

I wish you peace and good luck.

[ThisAndThat]

And you just validated a huge reason why men are going MGTOW.

(Those MGTOW members that have realized what you did are the ones that will not harass or otherwise molest girls because they came to realize that it is vain.)

We MGTOW are well aware of the false allegations made against men and where the false rape and abuse statistics come from which is the divorce raping of men. Statistics that come from false accusing women that falsely accuse men in order to gain the upper hand in both the system and divorce, take a man's right to his children away from him while the system moves him into slavery for her. Here's where your false statistics are coming from, but feminism didn't tell you women are the actual predators, not men.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/M-Dtcvqcjc8/

[SueShe]

@ThisAndThat Perhaps that I did not express myself correctly.

When I said

"Those MGTOW members that have realized what you did are the ones that will not harass or otherwise molest girls because they came to realize that it is vain" ,

I was referring to the part in the asker's question where he states

"I think adding a woman to my life would add problems".

As I have stated, a true MGTOW guy is the one that will not harass a girl because of past negative experiences and I am perfectly okay with guys that have adopted this opinion.

All I ask is to be left alone and not be hit on. If guys understand that concept, I certainly will never attempt to hit on a guy. Ever!

[VioletHaze]

As someone who values marriage and deep meaningful relationships, I find it sad. I understand why many men nowadays choose to "go their own ways". But the fact that they feel relationships are only a hassle and won't bring happiness and fulfillment is sad to someone who values it so much. My dad is paritally mgtow. I can understand and have empathy with his reasons, but I can't help but feel it's an empty way of life. So in the end, I can't understand how it makes someone happy. I can understand why, but not how it gives them some sort of peace.

In the end, I don't like it and I don't wish it for any man. But then again, the alternative is to get a woman who doesn't respect or value masculinity, nor marriage.

[Heiniken]

Out of curiosity was your dad obliterated in a divorce? A MAJOR part of MGTOW is that divorce laws are so unfair that the risk of divorce by itself is too much of a negative for the benefits of a relationship to ever be able to balance.

[TheFlak38]

you don't wish it for any man because for every man who chooses to go his own way one more woman loses an orbiter who is wasting beta bucks on her she gives her free attention. Every day on Gag we get questions from sad depressed men who are chasing for a relationship and validation from women because they have no hobbies in their lives and here you are telling us that MGTOW who are the most productive and creative men that they're living empty lives. Jokes on you.

[VioletHaze]

Yes he was divorced and was struggling with a lot of child custody issues and her just totally immasculating him. Bossing him around and treating him like a kid. So I guess that ruined it for him.

[VioletHaze]

Hhaha, I'm sorry. I have pretty much secured a man, so I don't really care. But if it is fullfilling, all good. I'm glad my father at least doesn't have so much hatred in his heart for a whole nother gender. But you are right about the last lines and changed my perspective. It's better to be living life and being productive rather than sulking about women.

[VioletHaze]

But then again, this isn't what you are doing. You are really angry and hating women. That isn't productive cause it shows that you are lacking something. You wouldn't be this angry if you actually felt good about having no woman in your life. So it is sad that mgtow can't find a good wife to spend their life with. If mgtow was happy and fullfilled and could show me that, I'm all for it.

[TheFlak38]

The anger you see is the so called red-pill rage you dumb bitch. Men get angry when they learn the truth about women because they realise how they were being deceived for years by their teachers, pop culture and even their own parents to become pussy slaves instead of working on they own selves. This anger lasts a few months to a year maybe. You're not constantly pissed off at women for living off of the energy of men just as you're not pissed off because babies fill their diapers. You having a man in your life is irrelevant. One man isn't enough for a woman today. You need an additional army thousands of white knights to bombard you on social media with likes and thirsty comments. You're triggered that MGTOW talk about female nature and spread awareness thanks to the tools the internet provides us. Women talk about dick size all the time but the moment men discuss female nature and how to protect themselves from you, you call us angry and that we're hating women.

[VioletHaze]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Wish you all the best

[TheFlak38]

https://youtu.be/Zh0HYzYWWFc

[VioletHaze]

Why send that to me. I'm a woman, inherently evil. No reason to try to convince me about this stuff

[Juxtapose]

"But the fact that they feel relationships are only a hassle and won't bring happiness and fulfillment is sad to someone who values it so much."

I have never had romantic relationships give me anything but hardship, and this is coming from someone who has dreamt about finding a life partner ever since I was a kid.

[VioletHaze]

Ahh I'm really sorry about that. I hope you find someone at last. But remember relationships aren't suppose to be perfect and a total walk in the park. Takes sacrifice and constantly working on communication. So hassle is unavoidable, you just have to figure out what you value. Not saying you don't. Takes two to tango. I believe marriage councelling should be a part of education. But people would find problems related to it.

[Juxtapose]

Well I am autistic and just want someone who can talk to me straight, you know?

I really try my best to be understanding, patient, loving, give enough space, etc. But I keep attracting mentally ill people and no matter what I do relationships with them can't work and I don't realize they're mentally ill until it's too late. (Bipolar, PTSD, etc).

[Juxtapose]

Thank you though, I hope I can find someone one day and feel that emotion I have been dreaming about ever since I was a kid.

Love <3

[VioletHaze]

Wish you all the best 🥰 pray you find a understanding, genuine and healthy relationship.
Maybe it could help to speak to a mental health professional that understands autism. They could teach you ways to notice red flags so you don't have to fall into bad and unhealthy partners again and maybe give you other tips related to finding a partner

[cth96190]

@VioletHaze you are correct when you say that MGTOW is an empty way of life.
Being without a woman hurts. It is not about the absence of sex, it is about being able to hold someone close at night and put gentle kisses on her forehead.
The problem is, women, as a collective, have made themselves too dangerous to be around.
At the same time, hateful lesbian Communist Feminists have brainwashed generations of women to see men as rapists and domestic abusers.
Young women have been indoctrinated to see normal heterosexual approaches as harassment, or predatory.
Yes, MGTOW is an empty way of life, but it is better than being destroyed by an extra-judicial Title IX complaint, a false sexual harassment or rape allegation, or being destroyed financially for life by a divorce court.

[cth96190]

Here are some of the reasons why men choose the MGTOW path.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xeZcl7clQs

[VioletHaze]

@cth96190. That we can both agree to! And from that perspective I really understand the movement, which is why I'm saddened instead of annoyed and hateful. Wish we learned to appreciate each other's differences instead of this. But these people also want to tell you gender is a social construct.

That's exactly it! Men aren't just after physical sex. They actually want to love and care for a woman. Sure, some men are shallow. But some women are shallow as well.

There are so many things wrong about all of this 😔 But how do we go back?

[VioletHaze]

@cth96190 That's disgusting. Do women really stage domestic violence? 🙈🙈 What is solutions to this? Besides men missing out on family and loving relationships. Cause that's not a good solution.

[Heiniken]

Yeah women really do stage violence to get men in trouble.

The solution is to hold these women accountable and for divorce/family laws to drastically change so that they are less sexist against men. Until these laws change the only women that I will sleep with are going to be pro's who know and agree what the money is being used for.

[cth96190]

@VioletHaze
Yes, women do make false allegations of domestic violence and some go so far as to injure themselves and claim that the man hurt them.
Under the academic fraud known as the Duluth Model, when the police and/or other arms of the state become involved the state’s apparatchik’s are required to make an automatic assumption that the woman is telling the truth and that the man is guilty.
Police I know have told me that at least half the domestic violence complaints that they received were false, made by angry spiteful women.
Lawyers who work in the Family Court nightmare have told me that most of the domestic violence allegations made in that court were false.
Police have also said that most rape complaints were false.
The difference between that and the 2 per cent false allegation figure that is claimed by Feminists is because the Feminists are referring to the cases that make it to court, not the initial complaints that a police investigation finds to be false before anyone is charged.
I do not know how to stop false allegations.
False allegations are not new. I refer you to the Biblical account of Potifar’s wife, who claimed that Joseph (coat of many colours) had raped her.
The only defensive measure to date has been for men to separate themselves from women, so far as that is possible. Hence, the appearance of Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW).
I have not been with a woman for 20 years.
Every day, I die a little more inside, because I have a hard-wired biological need for a woman.
The risk, however, is too great. A divorce rate of 50 per cent, a court system that has been engineered to favour women and a pre-emptive assumption that all men are abusive raping psychos.
That is a battle that I cannot win, so, every day, I sit alone in the big house on my rural property and die a little more inside.

[VioletHaze]

You are a man of faith? The story of prophet Joseph is one of my favourite! Is there no woman who values marriage and Abrahamic principles in church? Not lying and slandering for wordly and material gains etc. Such behaviour is, at least in islam (which share a lot of the same values as Christianity) distasteful to the core.

[cth96190]

@VioletHaze
I could be called a man of faith.
I could be called a freelance Christian, who is closest to the Baptists.
I have made a serious study of the Bible (among other things) since I was about your age.
In each Christian denomination, I have found teachings and/or practices that are contrary to what is in the Bible.
Hence, these churches are apostate and God will not be found there.
When my work situation permits, I do attend a Baptist church that is close to where I live.
I own and work in a business that works to a 24/7 roster, so there are frequent clashes between work and service times at that Baptist church.
I am in Australia, where the Christian church situation is rather different to what can be found in the USA. It is unusual to find anyone who is an active Christian any anyone who expresses faith is regarded with extreme suspicion.
With the exception of the evangelicals, the age demographic in Christian churches here causes them to be described as God's waiting room.
When I attend the nearby Baptist church, or any other that the invisible hand on my shoulder urges me to visit, the older females acquire me on their targeting radar. After military service and a near-lifetime of martial arts, I look good for my age and I look good in the basic black suit.
Most people think that I am late 40s. God has been kind, in terms of my genetics. - lol

[cth96190]

@VioletHaze
Continued. . .
I have not encountered a female who has impressed me sufficiently to do anything. There are, however, frequent invitations to 'coffee' to talk about God. . . or whatever.
There is something about those women that does not feel right, something that feels like an ill-fitting shirt. They also tend to be fat, frumpy and as sexually appealing as roadkill.
I also have a huge load of pain inside, which causes me to look upon females with extreme suspicion. I feel as though they see me as a retirement plan. The same women would have probably told me to FOAD when they were 20 and looking for Harley MacBadBoy, not a journalist who had a reserve commission in the Australian Army, which caused him to yo-yo in and out of service.
Perhaps I should wear a cheaper suit and drive something other than my German SUV. - lol
When I was around your age, I tried dating the girls at the church that I attended at that time.
Those girls wanted the bad boys, too. The stories that I could tell.

[LionKing65]

Secured a man? Does this subsequently imply ownership of this man as you have secured him?
My ex-wife said the same thing to her friends shortly after we married.

[VioletHaze]

@LionKing65 Hahahah no

[PBandJ_Nerd]

Whether to say I like it or not I'm not sure. But personally, I think if you're just bettering yourself for your future partner, then you don't need any type of movement for that. However, this is what I got when I typed MGTOW: "an anti-feminist, misogynistic, mostly online community advocating for men to separate themselves from women and from a society which they believe has been destroyed by feminism." That's only a small part of it so I'd have to say it probably isn't a good thing. Unless the movement itself shows to actually have more positives than negatives that is. But what positives would you get?

[Boromir]

I don't know, in general I go by 'live and let live' and _your_ specific version of MGTOW sound still 'reasonable'. I understand your point of view, and could even see the benefit of it.

To me, most MGTOW is based on unhealthy idea's that women are evil or unhealthy, many MGTOW 'followers' have been rejected some times in their lives by a female love interest and as unhealthy psychological reaction they put the blame on 'women as a gender in total'. That's in my opinion a ridiculous attitude which _you_ specifically don't seem to have, but most other MGTOW's seem to.

Depending on country and region there's more or less 'leagues attitude' in courting, that's something that I don't see too much here in Europe, the real 'MGTOW' frustration could also be partly fed by that attitude, because to me it's something really 'limited' to the region of the planet where people think that way.

[Hogwheels]

I don't know much about MGTOW so I can't say I definitely support it. I only found out about it yesterday, but it seems like it just encourages men to respect themselves and to know their own value and not depend on women to assign them their value. I think all people, men and women should have a high respect for themselves. I think respecting yourself is necessary before you can learn to respect others.

I've never seen MGTOW content though so I might be completely misinterpretting their stuff. I can only interpret what I've heard.

[Anonymous]

It’s ok , woman can be a distraction if you’re trying to work on a career that takes up most of your time. Maybe once you have your life in order then you can share it with a woman but you don’t seem like an MGTOW , more like just different priorities right now

[Asker]

I’ve had a couple women do me wrong and bad experiences too. I’m not ready to just let that slide when women decide they want me.

[Opinion Owner]

Once you are ready for one again then hopefully you find a decent one

[Asker]

I would be good but I’m not hoping. Hope can be a curse!

[Anonymous]

No.

MGTOW is a toothless, pro-status quo movement. All what these guys want is to obey, to consume and to conform. They just wanna keep themselves away from relationships, or even women in general, to focus better on obeying, consuming and conforming...

They're going to achieve nothing really worth it.

I have a different approach in life. I figured out that white women are what weigh white men down in our society. They make our lives worse. So I decided to give white women the full toxic boyfriend experience. I turned cheating, lying, gaslighting, stalking and gossiping into a political act of rebellion.

When I eventually get tired of breaking white girls' hearts, I hope to find a fine Latina or Asian wife and give her all the love she deserves.

[cth96190]

MGTOW is a rational response to 60 years of hate from Feminists/Communists, laws that are unjust and viciously anti-male and the Feminist/Communist indoctrination of young females in schools and university.
Women, as a collective, have become hateful, insane and too dangerous to be around.
The only effective defensive response that is available to men is to remove themselves from the situation. That is the basis of MGTOW.
The only way to win is to not play the game.

[ThisAndThat]

BINGO! 34 year Monk here. Never going back to the plantation MGTOW-4-LIFE

[slatyb]

It's not a movement. Movements have goals. BLM is a movement, with the goal of reducing police brutality involving minorities.

MGTOW is just a bunch of socially awkward young men blaming their inability to attract a partner on women, society, genetics, whatever while being unwilling to change anything that might make them more successful. Saying "I'm MGTOW" is just whining for attention.

The men who really are going their own way are too busy doing it to talk about it.

[LionKing65]

BLM goal of reducing police violence against minorities? May want to read their manifesto before you make an ignorant comment. The BLM movement is full on Marxist. That won't end well for you folks in the west. May want to buff up a bit on your world history of Communism and the 150,000,000+ dead from its totalitarian rulers.

[Hermes-Paris]

Just realize it suits you at this time in your life but in choosing one path you elect not to take a million others. So be careful which one you choose. And at any time you can change your mind. Life lets you do that as you get older. Good luck with everything.

[Celtero]

Yes, I think both sexes can benefit a lot from realizing being alone might just be the best possible option. Too many abusive assholes, both men and women, are enabled by people who are too afraid to be alone.

I think the mindset can accomplish a lot by forcing the standards of people to be higher and we can strive to become better partners that are actually deserving of relationships.

[AnhEsbRotj]

Women creates "We dont need Men" movement
and its inspiring and a sure sign of progress

Man creates "We dont need Women" movement
and its the most sexist thing anyone can ever do
HOW DARE THEY!! :O


but seriously
people need love
and though I hate the double standards applied here
making all women.. or all men.. the problem
is the not answer

[HikerDude]

I understand where it comes from, but I don't like it. The whole thing is too rife with bitterness to be healthy for any of the guys involved. There are so many bitter guys and girls out there who need to learn to get out of their own ways in dating. If most of them were honest, they'd admit that they wish they had a good relationship with a woman more than anything.

[Ellie-V]

Umm, I don’t care... anymore.
I did but like It ain’t like I’m losing anything or hurting or being treated unfairly by the existence of a movement that has absolutely nothing to do with me or what I go through.

[Fuentes]

I love you

[NoblesseObligeKK]

I dont consider myself to be a member of MGTOW, nor do I truly know their beliefs. I just know who I am and right now I do not want a girl in my life; they complicate things. I get you OP. just do you, OP, allow the girls to be salty - they mean nothing.

[soleil2000]

Well, blacks, male and female, can go their own way (typically to Iraq).

All of the trolls that abuse men online are black women, so it should be black men that are going their own way.

Otherwise, it is the not-having-a-roof-over-their-heads issue, where they expect a woman to work and be loyal, and American law is that she gets paid half his earnings to raise babies at home (which is why American women love getting married)

[Floppy2112]

I don't like it, because it means society is different and to many men, women have become unmarriable. I don't like it, but I understand it. We're all going to figure out we need each other one day, but until that day, I see that this is only going to increase.

[undercover4ever]

I don't like them because they tend to complain about women all of the time. I feel like if they were really going their own way they wouldn't care.

[Random_Guy_Online]

The thing with that is: they're going their own way (AKA not dating women) BECAUSE of their issues with women as a whole.

[undercover4ever]

Well it's okay to have issues just don't be hateful

[ThisAndThat]

Your perception of MGTOW is not correct. What you see as complaining is men warning their fellow man not to make the mistakes they made based on their experiences. Try going to a alcoholics anonymous group that doesn't talk about alcohol or a drug rehab that doesn't talk about drugs. Same thing, they share their experiences to help other both deal with the downfalls and to avoid the situation.