Did God create the devil to do his dirty work?

[Anonymous]

Is Satin there so God doesn't 'get his hands dirty'? God wants hell to exist, he wants the devil to tempt people and lead some astray and he wants them to suffer eternal torture for their weakness. God clearly wants the devil there for his 'plan'. But being omnipotent surely God could administer heaven and hell without need to create Lucifer, so did God create the devil to keep his hands clean? Or perhaps the devil is just another manifestation of God, rather than a trinity he might be four?

Yes

No

Both

Neither

All of the above

Updates

+1 y

Should we really hate/despise the devil if he's part of God's plan? Perhaps we should respect the job he's forced to do. God gets to come across as benevolent, while Satin his pawn is tarnished with a bad reputation just for doing what God wants.

Updates

+1 y

Should we consider God to be a trinity in four parts... The father, the son, the holy ghost, and lucifer.

[Insignis]

Think of it this way. God is love, so in order to be love then that love must be shared. God then made His son to share that love with, and the love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. After that God made the angels so that they could also receive God's love. But in order to experience love it must be mutual and voluntary, therefore God gave the angels the gift of freewill since love is never to be forced.

One day the Father shows His creations what His plan his. God's plan was to create humans that would be saved by His Son, who would be birthed by a perfect woman without sin. The Son would defeat sin and return to the right hand of the Father, but the woman would also rise to heaven when she died and would help the Son redeem mankind through her intercession.

Lucifer didn't like the idea that a woman would one day be greater than him. Some of the angels grew gloomier everyday and eventually decided that they did not want to be a part of the plan. Lucifer then said that he would rise up and be higher than God, ascend above His throne. About 1/3 of the other angels followed suit.

Then a cataclysmic battle ensued between Lucifer and his cohorts against God's loyal angels. When defeated one of the good angels yelled out, "Michael!" Which means, "who is like God?" During Lucifer's and his cohorts last moments in Heaven they were given a chance to repent, one of the many chances they had beforehand. In their pride they decided not to amend their ways. Then the devil and his angels were thrown into Hell where they took their anger out on each other; there was nothing left to do and no desire to repent since it was too late.

You see the lesson here? God made Lucifer to share His love with. But the devil had other plans in mind. Yes God knew it MIGHT happen but He also knew that it might NOT happen. He still believes in us. If we are damned then we can only blame ourselves. You're still alive aren't you? You still have chances, do your best!

[Mesonfielde]

Definitely, it's so that people would blame the Devil rather than God, even though every act of the Devil is indirectly the act of God. Voted A).

Although I could have gone for D) and claimed that it's all superstition, but alas, this works too.

[Asker]

For people that accept the bible, you need to conclude that God created Adam and Eve with the intention being for them to disobey him. He designed his creation to break his arbitrary rules, and then decides to punish us for doing what he intended us to.

Glad he doesn't exist...

[Mesonfielde]

Exactly, God is a psycho control freak.

[Mesonfielde]

Thanks for MHO! :D

It wasn't too long until auto-selection, too. Nice timing.

[Asker]

Yes, there were quite a few opinions to choose from so it took me a while to get around to it.

[bijinbijinbijin]

i was wondeirgn this too so i googled it and found this website

praise.com/.../if-god-all-powerful-why-doesnt-he-destroy-satan

accordig to this website. Satan is a tool used by God to scare people into wanting to follow God that is why he doesn't destroy him. People would not understand God's love if there were no Satan.
Although in a way it pretty much sounds like Satan is really just another part of God which is why he can't destroy him. Like without satan there can be no God. Thats pretty much how all opposites work anyway. you can't know what is really hot unless you experience the cold. You can't know what good is untill you see bad.

[Asker]

So it's good cop, bad cop is it?

There not really opposites though, are they? God flooded the Earth and allowed most of humanity to drown, including children and infants in, some of whom had presumably never heard of God. I think that's pretty bad, God's capable of bad things too. (Unless he remodelled the continents afterwards.)

[bijinbijinbijin]

lol maybe the bad stuff he did was before he decided to separate his personalities. Before it was like one person could do good and bad things. now it is God does good things and satan does bad things.

[Kiwedin]

I don't believe in the devil or the christian god because all of the contradictions like this in the Bible. If god is all-good and all-powerful, then why would he allow evil to exist? If he's so powerful, then why can't he just make evil disappear? Lucifer is just a fallen angel, and God is, well, God. It's a fallacy, and it doesn't make sense.

[Vinvei]

If God can do anything he would have destroyed Satan long ago in the Bible. But when there's an evil there's a way for 'God' to dictate what is bad and what is good. Satan makes God look good.

But this video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrtdLukslY

- makes Satan look like the lesser of the two evils...

[Asker]

Indeed

[Anonymous]

I don't think there is God and Satan/Devil/Lucifer. I do believe that a looooooooooooooooong time ago some creatures (nowadays called aliens or unidentified life forms) visited earth (maybe even created us from the animals DNAs that they collected and gave us a little bit of their intelligence?) and people just couldn't understand what they were. Never seen creatures come down from the sky with sounds of thunder, light as bright as sun, things never seen neither heard of about... Then to understand what it was people decided that they are Gods (that's why there are so many different Gods in different cultures). Or maybe the creatures themselves introduced as Gods? Satan/Devil/Lucifer could be the bad creatures. It kind of makes sense, since we never seen a God and I remember reading somewhere in the Bible about how God approached the earth. There was said something like "The sound was as if thousands of thunders were striking at the same time and the light was so bright it was almost impossible to look" or something like that. Doesn't this sound a lot like a spaceship? That means God isn't all mighty thing that created everything. He may be an alien or even a creature like us, humans? These aliens may be the reason why we have religion. Maybe they were so intelligent that they decided to make us like a perfect race by saying that we MUST be religious, yet we aren't. Religion may be the answer to create Utopia, but if those aliens made us they did a mistake somewhere which makes us so different from each other. So yeah. In my opinion religion and God is just a way to make life easier and better.

[BiffWebster]

i will say that the Devil is far more interesting character than god is. I mean think about it, he's a rebellious teenager that didn't want to listen to dad, and frankly if your read any of the three holy books, you'll find that God is the leading cause of death, destruction and genocide compared to the devil.

maybe the devil is the good guy ^^

[Asker]

They say the victor writes the history books... the bible's hardly one of those, but still...

[BiffWebster]

nah the bible was written by 2,000 years after the supposed events and passed down through word of mouth by illiterate people. Not to mention that god only seems to talk to one ":chosen" individual when there is absolutely no one around, and then having the events being recorded as if they happened the day before 2,000 years later

-_- that is a lot of speculation and empty spaces if you ask me

[godfatherfan]

So you are wondering in an invisible "good guy" created an invisible "bad guy"? and neither has given proof of it's existence? ARGHHHH...
this world would be a peaceful place if all religions were completely done away with.
think for yourself, don't let your up bringing dictate who you are.
if your an educated person, and you never had heard of religion until say 20 years old, then someone told you about any religion at all, you would call bullshit and tell that person to hit the road. there are so many holes in all religion it is horrible.

[Asker]

I'm an atheist, just trying to gauge what others think...

[godfatherfan]

Thank God

[godfatherfan]

by the way... if you an Atheist, you believe in nothing. Since you believe in nothing you believe in something. Thus you are not an Atheist. Really everyone is at least Agnostic. Even I can't say there is no possibility that there is some kind of "god". I just don't believe if there is one it is so full of itself it needs to be prayed to constantly.

[Asker]

Being an atheist doesn't mean believing in nothing, it means that there's nothing in which I believe. (There's a difference.)

Anyway the definition of atheist I use is "One who rejects belief in god/s", rejecting belief isn't the same as saying gods don't exist. I'm an agnostic and an atheist as I can't prove there are no gods and I don't believe in any gods (and reject belief in them).

So you were mistaken.

[Ouroboros]

Atheist here, but I know a bit of this.
1. Satin is a cloth. Satan is the devil, also known as Lucifer.
2. If I'm remembering correctly, Lucifer was an angel before he was cast out of heaven, so it's unlikely he was created to do dirty work.
3. I'm much fuzzier on this, but I seem to remember Yahweh wanting the angels to love humans more than him, and Lucifer couldn't bring himself to love the imperfect creatures more than his father, and as such, was cast out of heaven into hell. (I know I'm missing something somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of things.)
4. A trinity is a TRInity. Tri- means three an -nity means one, so a trinity means three as one, or one made of three. You can't really have a four-part trinity. Plus there's also the satanic trinity, which is Lucifer, the dragon, and something else that always escapes me.

So yeah, there ya go.

[UrHomie]

Holy shizit you blowing my mind! I'll ask Him when I go to heaven and somehow post the answer here. But u make a goodpoint. Everyone says God makes no mistakes but in the bible it says God regreted making man. Oh The Contradictions.

[hswhis]

If God regretted making man why did He sacrifice His only son so that we may be redeemed?

[UrHomie]

@hswhis bruh it says that in the old testament not the new.

[Asker]

Keep me posted...

[hswhis]

Wrong. There are still over 365 prophecies in the OT that speak of the Messiah. If God was so dissatisfied with mankind, why redundancy of foretelling His plan on saving it?

You didn't answer my question posed and your statement was incorrect.

[Asker]

@hswhis Clearly he wanted to sacrifice his son. He could have just forgiven us if he wanted to. He sacrificed his son to himself so that he could forgive us for breaking his rules. Do your really think that makes sense?

[Pmnm-325]

He did flood the earth and kinda started over

[hswhis]

Yes, it does because God cannot contradict Himself. The price to be paid for sin has always been a blood sacrifice under Levitical law.(Lev 16:10, 20-22). Therefore for all of mankind to be redeemed, a blood sacrifice was required. If it was so in the past, it must be so in the future otherwise He wold have contradicted Himself. Jesus fulfilled this requirement and it is through His blood that we are redeemed.

It makes perfect sense.

[Izzy2102]

Satan or Lucifer was an angel once but then decided he didn't want to do what god tells him anymore. So he got kicked out of heaven. That story always kinda reminds of Marvels thor, a bratty space god who gets kicked out of heaven/valhalla
So to answer your question no he didn't

[Asker]

But he knew all of that would happen when he created Lucifer, didn't he? God chose to create an angel who would rebel.

[paulsweis]

Even if he didn't know at the time, he knows now, he could remove Lucifer if he chose

[Random_chick_2384]

We created the devil so only the strong believers will make it to heaven. And not the weak. The strong almost always survive. No matter what it is. In the animal kingdom the weak will die. In crops the weak plants or bad plants will die. Humans the weak will die ( unless an accident happens ) it's the same with spiritual. The weak Christians will die.

[UrHomie]

Good comment. I'm sorry I accidentally down voted it. I meant an up vote

[Random_chick_2384]

Thanks and it's on ☺️

[Random_chick_2384]

*ok.

[paulsweis]

So you are agreeing with the premise, that God needs Lucifer in order to do his dirty work?

[Curious-koala]

I just think it's funny that religious people need a god and a devil to encourage them to be a good person.

[Asker]

It is indeed.

[Jerusha]

This has been an argument since forever, my answer is: unicorns.

[Asker]

Invisible pink unicorns, or any unicorns?

[Jerusha]

Fluffy unicorns, particularly.

[Jerusha]

I like your poll.

[Asker]

So do I... Thanks.

[cipher42]

But why couldn't god destroy him? Or predict that satan would do that?

[cipher42]

Shoot, sorry. That was supposed to be a comment. No idea how that happened. I blame my phone being idiotic.

But to answer your question, your idea certainly makes more sense than God not being able to control lucifer, or to predict what he would do.

[cipher42]

(Though I don't personally believe in any of it. In part because of this very issue.)

[Asker]

I don't believe either, but I think it's interesting as a thought experiment.

[Anonymous]

God loves all his creations, so he gives the living ones free will. Lucifer wanted to be like God (like with all the power, be in charge, know everything), that wasn't happening, so he was thrown out of Heaven and took it upon himself to turn people against God, therefore becoming Satan.

[Asker]

But surely God knew that would happen when he created Lucifer, just as he new Adam and Eve would be unable to resist temptation. He wanted them to take the forbidden fruit. It's all what God intended. He creates an imperfect creation so he can punish it.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah, he knew what would happen; but He loves his creation so much that he allows it to do what it wants, after all, we were created in his image. Doesn't God have free will? What kind of God would He be if he dictated every thought and action? Of course, there are rules and punishment (Satan's going to spend enternity in the lake of fire with all of the unbelievers/disobedient people), because He is our Father, and that's what good parents do.

[Opinion Owner]

I can give you biblical references if you need them.

[Marstalk]

Who is this Satin you speak of? I never heard of it. No God did not create satan. Satan simply means accuser. There is no need to imply a heavenly being to the idea. Lucifer is a mythological construct. More to due with religions outside of Judaism/Christianity than with it.

[Asker]

Your claiming that Christians don't consider God to have created Lucifer, who then became satan/the Devil?

[Marstalk]

It's a mythological character. Christians now consider Satan as a being. But that necessarily was not always true or even true to some Christians today. Lucifer is his fallen name in mythology, Satan or devil is his alternate name by mythology.
While yes I stated God did not create him. I state that as my opinion and not necessarily the consensus of the whole. Probably should have separated the two.
I am saying that nothing became Satan or the devil. That the Satan is a word used as accuser in the Christian bible.
Also you need to understand that for the Hebrews in the Old Testament. Everything came from God. Whether it was good or bad. So what we consider mental illness to us they would have said God is punishing them for their or their parents sins. Just as the question posed to Jesus in the New Testament.
Revelation is a book used for some of the aspects given to the devil/Satan. I would not look to that book for many answer on the devil or the future.

[Marstalk]

The parallels between Roman rule and the concepts in Revelation are pretty strong.

[Asker]

Indeed, God can't take credit for roses or wine without taking credit for genital herpes as well.

[Marstalk]

Lol, well maybe we developed them both. Or at least evolution did.

[Anonymous]

Satan was the chief angel known as Lucifer, he was created perfect as the other angels. But when he decided to take God's place he was given opportunity to repent; he rejected it and was expelled, not before taking with him a third of the angels. They came to Earth where they lied to the first humans, this is how sin appeared here.

He and everyone who follows him will be destroyed on the judgement day.

[Asker]

But God wanted all of that to happen, right?

[Opinion Owner]

No, he didn't

[Asker]

But God created him knowing that all of that would happen.

[Opinion Owner]

Ever played a video game with multiple endings? The creators know all the endings, but they don't know which one will the player get first.

[Asker]

You're saying God isn't omniscient?

[Asker]

And no I haven't actually...

[SillyQuirks_]

This. 👍👍 well said

[Insignis]

How could the devil "descend" to earth if he was already in hell before the creation of man. The "sons of god" were humans not angels. An ethereal spirit has no desire to mate with a corporeal body.

[paulsweis]

Even if god isn't omniscient and didn't know, he knows now and could change it at any time, it sounds ike you are agreeing with the premise that God chooses to have Lucifer there to do his dirty work.

[Opinion Owner]

@paulsweis God gives everyone the freedom of choice.

[Anonymous]

Evidently not.

whanethewhip.wdfiles.com/.../kill-count.jpg

[Asker]

So he evidently he isn't doing God's dirty work, but perhaps his role is to be seen to be the bad one so God can pretend he doesn't have blood on his hands.

[Zango91]

According to Christianity, God created 4 archangels. Lucifer, Gabriel, Michael and Rafael. (Somebody make sure if the names are right). Lucifer was like his right hand. The Angel of Light. But Lucifer felt that he is no different from God and he went against him. So God Kicked him to a lower place and created hell. I don't want to comment on the rest of the question. But Thor and Loki are more fun :P

[HappyToBeAlive]

God created lucifer as part of a new race that like humans, has free will. Once god created adam, the first human, god asked all to bow to him however lucifer did not. He thought he was better than adam and humans. So because satin has free will, he chose to be evil. God didn't create him to be evil. And because he hates adam and humanity, he takes it upon himself to corrupt humanity and prove to god how bad humans are.

[HappyToBeAlive]

I just realized that i misspelled satan a bunch of times lol. Oh well

[Asker]

"God didn't create him to be evil."

But God created him knowing that he would be evil, didn't he?

[Asker]

So did I...

[HappyToBeAlive]

God gave him a choice.

[HappyToBeAlive]

God doesn't force anyone to be good or evil, he gives all mortals a choice (except angles because they dont have free will)

[Asker]

But God knew the decision he would make and yet created him that way anyway.

[Asker]

So Satan doesn't have free will? How did Lucifer rebel without it? It was God's will that he disobey was it?

[HappyToBeAlive]

I said that satan DOES have free will which is why he is able to rebel unlike angels. However, god, being all knowing, knew that this would happen. It was a test to gods creations. I assume you're being confused because you're talking from a christianity pov right?

[Asker]

You said angels don't have free will, was Lucifer an angel with free will?

So you think God knows everything and has free will? Do you not see the conflict?

[HappyToBeAlive]

Lucifer was never nor will he ever be an angel. Lucifer was of a different race. There are three races created that we know of: humans (children of adam), jinn (lucifer was a jinn), and angels (angels dont have free will and are created for the sole purpose of serving god. Which is why none can rebel). Christianity has satan painted as a fallen angel which is why its confusing. Humans and jinn only are capable of free will and the ability to reason right and wrong. That is why we are better than angels in a sense. Because god can test us, but he can't test angels because they are right by design.

[Asker]

I was talking about the Christian God.

[Asker]

And do you not see that God can't know all and have free will?

[HappyToBeAlive]

He can give free will and now the possibilities of all that you can do. To be honest i can't explain to you how gods will works. No one does. So you are looking for an answer that does not exist. All god tells us is that he is perfect and every decision he makes is perfect. He is always right. I can rest my mind easy at night because that answer is good enough for me. Good luck man.

[Asker]

I wasn't saying can he give free will, but rather does he possess it himself. Do you think God has free will? Because he can't have free will and know everything.

[HappyToBeAlive]

Yes he does. He created the universe. He has no family, no higher being telling him what to do. He is perfection. No one created him to be perfect. God is just there

[Asker]

If he know everything he knows exactly what he will do at every point in time, he can't make any decisions as he already knows what he will do. He can't have free will and know everything.

[HappyToBeAlive]

You just said that he knows everything. Yes. He has free will because he can do anything, everything he does is perfect. He knows what he will do in every point in time but he can do what ever he wants. I dont think what you're saying makes sense. Its like i know im going to work tomorrow but i dont have free will because i know what im doing tomorrow.

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

We cannot even begin to fathom the depths of God's designs or his thoughts, for his thoughts are not our thoughts. All will be made clear on the day of reckoning. A quote that I like and live by as a general rule is this: what God did not mention in the Bible is best left untouched, because knowledge is a dangerous thing, and our minds cannot comprehend the divine.

God created everything with free will, and Satan (or Lucifer, as he was called in heaven) decided to abuse his and attempted to take the throne of God, and so God cast him out of heaven. As revenge, Satan decided to screw with God's plan. I do not know why God does not just incinerate him and make things perfect right now, but for whatever reason, he hasn't yet. But rest assured that Satan's reckoning is near and all of Creation will be made perfect once more.

[Asker]

"As revenge, Satan decided to screw with God's plan."

But surely God knew exactly what would happen before he created Lucifer. He could have designed a different angel that wouldn't want to rebel. He clearly wants the Devil to be there, so how can Satan interfere with God's plan, surely he is part of it?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

Of course Satan is a part of it. Everything that ever happened is a part of it. Is it desirable? No. Is it necessary? Yes. Like I said, God is beyond human comprehension. You cannot bind God to human logic or physical law. God is a metaphysical, divine, extradimensional being. God created Lucifer with free will, and because he created free will, he chose not to stop Lucifer from rebelling because that would go against God's own law. God is all-powerful, but because he is benevolent, he is bound by that benevolence. He only allows Satan to exist because he is a good God, not because he wants to. The same goes for all the wicked people in the world. They only exist because of his nature as a benevolent Creator, not because he wants them to.

The wicked and the sinful will suffer in hell. They may get pleasure in life, but in death they shall forever be bound by their sins.

[Asker]

"Is it necessary? Yes." So God is incapable of doing it without him?

Does God have free will?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

That's not what I meant. When I say it is necessary, I mean this: Mankind fell from God's original plan of creating a perfect creation where man was united with God. Satan only exists as a tool through which we are reunited with God. Unbeknownst to Satan, while he may lead others astray, he unwittingly becomes the tool through which sinners are cleansed. The judgment intended for us will be placed upon him for all of eternity because of his wickedness.

[Asker]

"Unbeknownst to Satan" Can he not read the bible, or listen in on conversations between Christians? Surely he would know by now.

Do you think God has free will?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

He does it everyday. Satan is very aware of what will happen, but he still chooses to defy God. Yes, God has free will. But that doesn't mean he will always act upon it.

[Asker]

The why did you say "Unbeknownst to Satan"?

Does God know everything or does he have free will?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

Because Satan is not all-knowing. God is, and always has been. I already answered your question on God's free will.

[Asker]

So he doesn't everything then?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

No,, Satan does not know everything. Let me point you in the direction of this fantastic book, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Grudem. It can give you much better answers than I can. The book deals with the concept of free will, angels, the crucifixion, spirits and everything in between.

www.amazon.com/.../0310286700

[Asker]

No, I was talking about God. He could know everything or he could have free will, but not both, that would be inconsistent.

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

And why would that be inconsistent? Being all-knowing has nothing to do with having free will.

[Asker]

Yes it does. If God know everything that means he know exactly what he will do regarding everthing at every point in time. He has no scope to make any decisions as he already knows what he will do completely. He can't know everything and have free will, he must lack at least one. Which is it?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

He lacks neither. Like I said before, God does not operate on human principle. I grow weary of this discussion. Respectfully, I end this conversation here.

[Asker]

So you think God can violate logic? And that he attributes can be logically inconsistent?

2 + 2 = 5 if God says it does, am I right?

[InquisitiveMale]

It's contributed to the good and bad we all have inside of us. Man is source of both God and the Devil.

[Asker]

For sure, we created him, and the others...

[InquisitiveMale]

Yes, and at the time we needed it. Someone had to explain why so much bad shit happened in the world. As cognitive beings it's next to impossible for us to believe things happen and yet not seek a reason. When there is not a valid explanation, it makes sense we would turn to a creation of our own minds to answer the unknown.

The day God dies in the minds of humans and is passed off as superstitious beliefs, like we now believe our forebears Gods to be, that is the day humans will advance yet again as was seen with the birth of technology. It will be an age of enlightenment.

Wish I was alive to see that day. Unfortunately that's still some generations away.

[Asker]

"When there is not a valid explanation..." we make do with an invalid one...

[InquisitiveMale]

It will free us as a species and allow us to be everything we can be- I think it would unify us as a species. Then maybe we can truly consider how it is we got to be.

After all, evolution and god are the two main thoughts behind our inception. However, in my mind, god's an insane idea in an omnipresent respect, and evolution doesn't make jumps.

[chocolatedragon]

It's not the devil. It simply the perception of wrongdoing, temptation and guilt that religious people have learned to blame on the devil instead of themselves.

[Asker]

And instead of blaming their God for evil, they can pretend the devil is responsible, even though their God is ostensibly all powerful.

[chocolatedragon]

Only religious people believe is powerful. But I don't think most religious people truly fear him since they sin left and right with no remorse lol. Back in the day, religion wad used to control masses, now it's more about having spirituality in your life. I don't need it, but I don't hate on those who do.

[christen5477]

No.. God created us all with the option to chose right or wrong... the devil chose to be evil. He was once a beautiful angel in Heaven.

[Asker]

But God created him in such a way the he would rebel, God knew exactly what Lucifer would do and yet created him like that anyway.

[Pmnm-325]

Lucifer was taken over by jealousy that god was more powerful and how god like humans more than angles. Satan just wants to be like god. God gives humans a choice of right or wrong. We have free will. God wants to see who is worthy to go to heaven.

[GoldenSunshine]

I don't believe in the devil or a hell, so I'd say no :)

[Asker]

Do you believe in any god though?

[GoldenSunshine]

It depends on your definition of God. I don't necessarily believe in the God in the bible, but I do believe that someone or something brought us to this world

[Heathrowguy]

I don’t believe in any parallel power to God, like Satan. Satan and ‘evil’ isn’t a person, it’s a type of behaviour and attitude. No person is evil, only their actions can be. I never worry about Satan or the devil.

[madhatters4]

if you are to believe the bible and therefore you wouldn't question it satan is a fallen angel. essentially a rogue he fell from heaven. so he/she was not created but CHOSE the wrong path. so in this situation if you choose to believe in the devil it means you choose to believe in the bible which means you'd say that god did not create a devil just like he didn't/doesn't force people to sin

[Asker]

Is the Christian God not omniscient (all knowing)? And omnipotent (all powerful)? He created an angel intentionally knowing he would fall and reek havoc - it's God's plan for the devil to be there.

[madhatters4]

he is omniscient and omnipotent but it doesn't mean he uses those abilities. I mean being all knowing doesn't necessarily mean bad things can't happen. and being omnipotent means sure he could know and do something about evil but he also gave beings free will which... again this is all if you follow the bible, supersedes his omnipotence... he doesn't create beings with an ultimate fate, that is the free will he instlls

[Asker]

I know it doesn't mean he needs to act on his knowledge or use his power; that was my point. The Devil exists because God wants him to be there.

[madhatters4]

no the devil exists because god let's him exist. because he has for the most part created a world and let it run based with his hands off... if you believe the bible, aside from the rare exception (noah and the flood, the pestilence, and a few other situations) he/she has let the world operate free of his/her influence. the same reason hitler, bin laden, or whomever is able to exist is the same reason satan is allowed to exist not because God wants them there but because God lets them exist

[Asker]

Are you saying he's just lazy not evil?

[madhatters4]

nope didn't say that.

[Asker]

*meaning

[madhatters4]

it seems to me that you have in mind that god condones evil (satan or any other forms). I think there is more than enough proof in the literature to say that he/she doesn't condone it but also doesn't put a stop to it. free will is a privilege that, as is written was given to humans during their creation. so evil is allowed to exist since god, according to scriptures, has more often than not intervened in the world.

but I'm not going to really argue it. I'm not a bible thumper I just know what it says. I could make the argument that based on the book there is credence to the idea that god doesn't condone evil but allows beings to do as they choose... presumably with judgment being determined once they are dead... but if you personally feel that god condones evil, by not wiping it off the earth, I think that's a fair personal belief to hold

[Asker]

Stopping someone from killing there neighbour isn't restricting free will. Free will is about being free to decide what you want to do, not being able to accomplish what you want to do. Being paralysed doesn't mean you lose free will.

Anyway if God can do anything surely he can intervene without restricting free will.

[Asker]

Or is he somehow bound by logic in your mind? Many believers don't seem to recognise that as a constraint on God.

[madhatters4]

Free will is about being free to decide what you want to do, not being able to accomplish what you Free will is about being free to decide what you want to do, not being able to accomplish what you want to do. Being paralysed doesn't mean you lose free will.

you seem to suggest (at least in this statement) that free will is entirely associated with physical action. it isn't. free will is the ability to think for yourself and act according to what you think and feel. the devil for all we know could be paralyzed, what I mean is paralysis doesn't stop someone from being evil if that's what they choose. free will is choice. the choice to believe and feel and act if capable. God would be intervening on free will if you had a thought and then somehow had that thought eliminated from your mind.

[Asker]

That's what I've been trying to say free will is. God can stop someone doing something without restricting their free will.

[madhatters4]

if god were to restrict free will then it wouldn't be free will. in America you have the freedom of choice in many matters. you are allowed to read any newspaper you want. if the government came in to say that this newspaper was not allowed then you wouldn't have free choice. true freedom, as it is defined, has no limitation or restriction aside from what the person exercising that freedom chooses to do with it. you know what I mean?

If I said you had the freedom to eat anything you want. you said you wanted steak and I said well not that. then you didn't really have freedom to eat anything. according to the bible humans have absolute free will to decide what they want. now those decisions may be based on plenty of things but ultimately the decision is, per scripture, 100% up to the individual

[thechica]

The devil was an angel 😇 but he did not want to praise the Lord. He wanted to be more than God. So now he is no longer an angel, but a fallen angle we call him the devil.

[Heyjessie15]

God lets him tempt us but the Devil doesn't make us do anything God lets us make our own decisions so if we fall in sin it's not because of God.

[Asker]

But he designed us so that we would, then after we break the rules he knew would he intends to inflict eternal torture on us.

[Heyjessie15]

No he didn't he maid eve and Adam perfect but they sinned and since then we are all sinners since we all came from them

[Asker]

Exactly he designed Adam and Eve in such a way that they were prone to sin, and the decided to punish the and their descendants for a flaw in his design.

[Heyjessie15]

Lol No God said they can have any fruit, but from the tree of good and evil, satan tempted eve but she didn't have to eat, it God lets us make our own decisions, he won't stop us and eve maid her decision she didn't have too but she did.

[Asker]

He designed Eve in such a way that she would yield to temptation, he knew she would before he created them, and yet he created them like that planning to punish his creation for doing what he knew it would.

[Dandeus]

I love this silly belief. The idea that man is special because we have free will and angels don't. If our free will is what makes us unique, then why is Satan to blame for rebelling against God?

[Heyjessie15]

Yes God knew it but he also knew he was sending his son to die for our sins but no matter what God still gives us a chance.

[Heyjessie15]

Because he still wants to be better than God and he will never want to repent.

[Asker]

I don't get how he had to send his son for our sins, he was sacrificing himself to himself so he could forgive us. If he wanted to forgive us couldn't he do it without torturing himself in human form?

[Heyjessie15]

A sacrafice is when you give up something to someone else. In this case, Jesus gave up his life for humanity... to who?
For humanity, to humanity.
I can sacrifice my morning toast to a starving person. It's for them and to them. It doesn't require anything else. Look I'm not going to start a religious fight it is really silly to this is just my opinion

[Asker]

That's not my main point really. God's the one doing the forgiving, so why does he need jesus to be sacrificed, surely he could just forgive us without jesus being crucified.

[Heyjessie15]

Because no one is perfect but God that's why and God, Jesus, and te Holy Spirit are one so you can't say God is the one that forgives is because Jesus is God as well.

[Asker]

But couldn't he just forgive us if he wanted to? Why did Jesus need to die first?

[Heyjessie15]

Many people do not understand why Jesus had to die on the cross. They say, "Why couldn't God just forgive us? Why did Jesus have to die?"

The reason why God could not "just forgive us" is that He is absolutely righteous. This means that He always does what is right. God has His way of doing things, and His way is always righteous. The Bible says, "He that justifies the wicked, and he that condemns the just, even they both are abomination [hateful] to the Lord" (Proverbs 17:15). I used some of this from a book but I agree so there it is why.

[Asker]

How does the crucifixion make it alright for God to forgive us if it wasn't alright to forgive us otherwise? Aren't these rules all God's anyway?

[Anonymous]

I'm not a believer of any religion, but my question: shouldn't Satan be the one prayed for most, since he is in need of redemption and forgiveness the most? Why the polarization of such a simplistic "good vs. evil" arrangement?

[Asker]

Exactly! And what happened to rooting for the under dog...

[Opinion Owner]

I don't think it has anything to do with "rooting for the under dog", but everything to do with practicing what you preach. Since the beginning of time, people have used stories to provide discipline, order, and structure for people. One obvious theme of this is to provide the backdrop for a supremely powerful being that you must obey in order to be "good", or else you'll suffer horrible punishments with another supremely powerful being for being "bad".

To me, modern religions haven't caught up with society itself. They try to blend thousand year old stories into a society with values that have changed by leaps and bounds since then. The usefulness of religious stories are being gradually squeezed dry due to our own civilization and understanding of the world we live in.

[Opinion Owner]

So to have a religion created with the original theme of obedience, an unquestionable authority, wrath and punishment... which then changes to a more merciful and admirable being... which is now trying to be further changed into a story of charity and almost unnatural goodwill...

It just doesn't make sense when you have all these conflicting themes (old, new, and newer) all trying to taught and followed in some sort of linear, consistent manner. Just makes little to no sense at all.

[Insignis]

They say that Obedience is written in large letters in Heaven. Obedience to who though? What do you believe the message is?

[Opinion Owner]

Me personally? Religion is nothing higher than a man-made organization.

[Anonymous]

I think the real culprit is the tooth fairy. It's just crap that I got one dollar for each tooth when I could have sold them to Steinway for much more.

[Klaatu51]

devil is a creature created by christians' minds

[Asker]

I think the Jews had him first...

[Anonymous]

There are theories that suggest that God and the Devil work together as a team, to keep the balance... yin and yang kind of thing.
No idea how many people believe it...

[strateguy632]

The devil tempts and punished. God personally does his own dirty work. In bible: Plagues on Egypt and sinners etc.

[sketchy]

Man created the devil, because a carrot and a stick work better than just a carrot.

[Asker]

That depends on what you do with the carrot...

[Anonymous]

God doesn't exist, neither does Satan. They're both stories people made up so they could control other people, and to have something to excuse their own evil behavior.

[Asker]

I agree more or less. But I think it's a worth while thought experiment to consider why there would be a devil if God is Omnipotent. If God and the devil were to exist it would be because God wants the devil there.

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

Hands clean? That implies righteous judgement is dirty. It's not :)

The devil is just an angel. Angel don't have many limits. The only one is they must obey God. They can easily "play evil" and "do harm". Who do you think the 4 horsemen are?

The only ones who need to fear or hate the devil are the ones currently in Hell.

Angels don't give a shit about "reputation", certainly not from humans.

No God is not 4 parts.

[Asker]

So why does God need the devil for his 'plan'? Surely God could administer Heaven, Earth and Hell all by himself, why does he need a sidekick? People like to thing God is good and the Devil is Bad, yet the devil is doing God's work, so is he there so God can be seen to be good.

[Asker]

"That implies righteous judgement is dirty. It's not :)"

God creates humans with imperfections and then punishes them for the flaws in his design, he intentionally created humans to disobey his arbitrary rules so that he could condemn them to eternal torture. You think that's somehow clean and it brings a smile to your face. This is what's wrong with religion...

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

Because it would be boring. God can do anything. Why "work"? That's a dumb human failing.

In human terms, God is like CEO with infinite VP angels ;)

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

Ya you're still thinking with a human brain. God can do literally anything. Humans don't even need to exist if one day he feels like it. ANYTHING. NOTHING IS BAD IF HE SAYS IT'S NOT :) Think on that.

[Asker]

So you think "God is good" is a tautology?

[Asker]

So he doesn't need Satan, he wants him.

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

I think "God is whatever he wants to be" is.

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

Correct. Satan's job could be done by any angel.

[Asker]

"Why "work"? That's a dumb human failing."

But surely he could just decide that things would happen and then they would, why does the devil need to be there? It's not like God would need to do any work to achieve that - if he can do anything, he can do whatever he wants without doing any work.

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

He probably does lol. He just does whatever is fun or makes sense at the time :)

[Asker]

So 'good' is completely meaningless then, if it has no meaning independent of what God wants. If God wants innocent children to be raped then that's good. - This is what you mean, right?

"Correct. Satan's job could be done by any angel." Why would he need an angel at all? Is he unable to achieve seemly by wanting it to be? Why must an angel be involved?

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

That is correct. See you are just a tiny mote of life in a scenario that is infinite. Yet you seem to think, with many people, that your rock solid beliefs are sound. First, understand God. Then you will understand how limited you once were.

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

An angel doesn't NEED to be involved. How do you even know the names Satan and Lucifer are God's names for anything or anyone? Fucking humans.

[Asker]

You said any angel could do it, implying that for whatever reason the presence of an angel is required.

[Asker]

I have no interest in speaking further with someone who thinks rape is alright if it's condoned by an invisible authority figure.

[Shut_Up_And_Marry_Me]

lol ok

[Anonymous]

... and then God gave Lucifer his real name, that name was- HUMAN!

[Asker]

Humans are definitely capable of evil all by themselves... that's God's design for you.

[Opinion Owner]

there is no "God".

[Asker]

Oh I'm speaking of the character God as seen in Christianity. I'm an atheist.

[Opinion Owner]

then interesting...

[Asker]

You're not religious, are you?

[Opinion Owner]

no im not.

[Asker]

I didn't think you were... just curious though.

[ButtHearth]

According to the Bible, yes, that's exactly why he created Satan.

[Asker]

Which verse (s)?

[Anonymous]

the devil was created to excuse god's mistakes and to put the blame on him in instances like various disasters and atrocities in history where god was nowhere to be found.

[Asker]

He's God's scapegoat...

[greycadillacs]

Humans created both. People shouldn't do evil actions because of a fear of hell. They should do it because it's right.

[Asker]

"People shouldn't do evil actions because of a fear of hell. They should do it because it's right." I think there's a mistake in there somewhere...

[ThatGuy98]

Lucifer became satan after he tried to become God and rioted against God in heaven, God won and threw him down to hell. The only reason Lucifer exists is because God want there to be free will, and when Jesus returns Lucifer will have no power anymore.

[Asker]

"The only reason Lucifer exists is because God want there to be free will..." So God is unable to maintain free will without Lucifer? Why not?

Surely God knew Lucifer would rebel, that was his intention was it not?

[ThatGuy98]

Really hard subject to answer, since the Bible doesn't say much about the time before God created us. I do however believe that God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but he has to because he is a just judge. It would be unfair if the people that mocked God and sinned without asking for forgiveness were allowed to go to heaven just as the people that followed God and did his will on earth.

[Asker]

"I do however believe that God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but he has to because he is a just judge." There his rules, he's not just a judge. He designed humans with weaknesses/imperfections he choose his arbitrary rules and he decided to meter out eternal torture to those who don't do precisely what he wants. Is this really a God to respect? Fear maybe, but not respect.

[ThatGuy98]

You have a really twisted image of God and that is sad. The first humans God made were perfect, the only reason they failed was because they misused free will. God gave humans free will because he doesn't want us to be his puppets, we have the power to decide wether we do right or wrong. Humans became imperfect when sin entered the world, that is why there are wars, cancer and hate in our world, it's our fault not Gods.

[Asker]

"... the only reason they failed was because they misused free will." God created them knowing they were prone to 'misuse' it, it was part of his plan for them to disobey him. It's our fault that Adam and Eve ate the fruit?

[ThatGuy98]

If it was you and me who were the first humans we would also have eaten the fruit. But I'll admit you are asking about really difficult things that I with my limited knowledge cannot answer. I recommend you ask a pastor or theologian about this kind of stuff since it is very complex.

God bless!

[protester]

I don't believe in God.

[Asker]

Neither do I.

[Red_Dragon]

God gave free will and I don't believe in the trinity.

[Asker]

Limiting someone's power doesn't mean they don't have free will. I could tie you up in a straight jacket, that wouldn't mean you no longer possess free will. Free will is the ability to want to do something, not the ability to actually do it.

[Red_Dragon]

Free will... freedom, but hey if that's what you want to believe bro by all means.

[Red_Dragon]

It's limiting you from choosing regardless.

[Asker]

What do you think free will is then? If someone is unable to move do the no longer possess free will?

Anyway if the devil's role is to lead people astray how does that fit in with free will?

[Asker]

"It's limiting you from choosing regardless." No it's not. It's limiting you from doing, not choosing.

[Red_Dragon]

I know what free will is and I know what limiting someone is. Regardless within the Christian belief you still get to choose and do as you want. You have that choice.

Who said it's the devil's role to lead people astray? According to the Christian belief it's the devil's own freedom and decision to lead people astray.

[Red_Dragon]

"It's limiting" So you admit that it's still limiting? LOL alright.

[Asker]

What is free will in your view?

"Regardless within the Christian belief you still get to choose and do as you want." Really? I would like to fly and breath fire, yet I can't, is my free will restricted? I can choose to do those things, but I can't do them. Can you not see the distinction?

"According to the Christian belief it's the devil's own freedom and decision to lead people astray." Sure, okay. Surely God is allowing Satan to undermine Human free will?

[Asker]

Of course I 'admit' it's limiting in some sense, "Limiting someone's power doesn't mean they don't have free will." this is what I wrote which we have since been referring to. "limiting" was the first word I used, there's no way in which I ever claimed it didn't limit anything in any respect. SO what's your point?

[Red_Dragon]

Within the Christian belief you can't breath fire and fly because you weren't created to. You were created to make your own decisions though. Do you understand that?

Within the Christian belief God allows the devil to make his own decisions just like anybody else.

[Asker]

That's what I've been trying to get through to you. Free will is about making decisions, not about being able to do anything. Do you get it now? Also can't you see that by giving the devil free will God is not allowing humans free will as the devil leads them astray.

[Red_Dragon]

"Of course I 'admit' it's limiting in some sense," Then I guess the problem is you don't understand what I meant. I meant that the devil can choose to do what he wants.
Free will:
noun
1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

[Asker]

Is God not all knowing? When he created everything he would have known exactly how everything would unfold at every point in time. There is no decision he doesn't know the result of. Does God have free will, because surely he already knows what he is going to do?

[Red_Dragon]

Refer to the definition. Free will is the power to act without constraint.

"Also can't you see that by giving the devil free will God is not allowing humans free will as the devil leads them astray." So you think God shouldn't give his creations free will?

[Red_Dragon]

So because he knows what's going to happen he should restrict his creations? If that's your only argument and you want to believe that God should do that then fine, but don't act like that's a requirement or that there's a error here when really there isn't.

[Asker]

Do you think God can know everything and have free will (himself)?

[RationalMale]

God created Lucifer, but Lucifer used his own free will to defy God and become his enemy.

[BeInnovative]

I love satin pijamas

[Asker]

Not the first time I've done that...

[BeInnovative]

Lololol 😹

[Anonymous]

Yes, the father, son, holy ghost and Dick Cheney

[ThatBritishLad]

He created bankers for that.

[findingdreamland]

No he didn't.

[oldtom188]

Stopped at satin.

[Pmnm-325]

No I don't think so