Why are men always expected to do all the work to 'win' women?

[Anonymous]

What men need to do to (with the risk of rejection looming after each step):-
1. Approach her
2. Strike up a conversation
3. Ask for the first date
4. Pay for the date
5. Lean forward for the first kiss
6. Ask and pay for the second date
7. Take the lead on sex
8. Buy her the first gift
9. Ask her to be their girlfriend
10. Buy her a ring
11. Get down on one knee

What women need to do:-
1. Just sit around, without batting an eyelid or raising a finger, and wait for the men to approach.

Why can't there be equality in dating and relationships? Why are women so passive, and make men put in all the efforts while they sit back and reap the benefits?

[JudgmentDay]

Don't like the effort required? Then quit and don't bother with it, no point of putting the time and effort into it if you find that there are problems with it being unfair and that you aren't happy about it, such as the risks of rejections.

There's always the just be as selfish as necessary in order to survive and forego all those kinds or types of relationships.

It's always more difficult to get women chasing you if you aren't someone that is like a celebrity or someone that is famous or even well known locally. Looks and physical aspects will always play a role and factor on whom they would want to date and approach. I think most women will chase after those supposedly "tall" and "handsome" guys, though I do not know if that makes them very superficial and shallow or what, I don't really care and I don't really judge. Possibly the athletic types will have their attention first if they were to do the approaching.

You can only do so much and have so much control, just do the best you could, if nothing works then try readjusting and changing your methods and strategies and focus on what you can change, what you can actually do to improve your chances of dating women. And start believing that you actually will find someone, otherwise just throw in the towel and quit altogether. Forget about whining about how it's unfair, as it doesn't really fix or help with the situation.

As in where did you ever get the idea that it was going to be fair when it comes to dating?

Who told you that it will be fair and equal or that it should be?

If anyone told you that, well now you know it, it's never going to be fair. Lack of fairness comes bundled altogether in the shitty package of being just a mere mortal.

Some guys will always have more advantage and is better at dating and picking up ladies, sometimes they have the physical advantages or the personalities and the charisma. While others struggle substantially, and then there are the quitters for what ever reason they choose to give up due to whatever insecurities they have a really hard time overcoming and dealing with.

[Asker]

You do make sense, but yeah I fuckin' HATE putting efforts when the returns aren't guaranteed. If I put efforts into getting a degree, I'm assured of a better job (usually). If I put efforts into learning a new skill, I still get either monetary returns or personal satisfaction. But with tying to win women... it's maximum risk, maximum efforts, but minimum chances of returns.

Money is the key to ultimate happiness. My focus is to amass lots of wealth. I don't need women when I can have cash.

[JudgmentDay]

If I had substantial wealth or money I'd be strategic and save as much as I think and feel I should and will need for retirement years. I think being Single for Life isn't so bad unless you have become Single for Life and completely fucking broke and homeless in your retirement years, as to me that's a real nightmare.

Either that, or I'd save the money and spend it on emergency preparations and realistic practical survival training since in this day and age there are too much unpredictable bad things that can and will happen. And I do NOT want to hang around when the shit hits the fan. For me I seem to always think that my own survival comes first, and as for everything and everyone else, I don't really know, since I know that if I don't survive, then nothing else mattered because that means I'd be dead and done for, and everything that I ever had or own would no longer be mines anyway.

[Asker]

Right, I want to avoid being single AND broke. That's the reason I'll slog my ass off to make a lo of money, then probably retire soon and travel the world. Solo, of course. I don't need a woman. Not worth the efforts.

[JudgmentDay]

See, that's the spirit. But if you had shit tons of cash theoretically you could always spend it on the much better high-class escorts for 1 or 2 dates or something like a "Girlfriend Experience". It's up to you on what you want to do with your life. Long Term Relationships are going to become more harder now thanks to the current state of the world and thanks to worldwide economic inequality and instability.

But what the hell, no women in your life, means no children in your life either, you'd would in theory save more money anyway, in particular for retirement. Just don't go spending all of your money recklessly on shit you really can't afford and do not absolutely need. Avoid shit like developing bad addictions for things like gambling, tobacco and liquor which can quickly drain your financial resources.

[Asker]

Yeah, I might occasionally go for escorts when the sexual tension becomes overwhelming, but I'd never make it 'habit'. Same goes for addictions. I'll be wise with my money. I won't be tempted to try attracting women even after I have money. In case there is a divorce, she'll take away my house, car, kids and half my shit. Too risky.

[JudgmentDay]

Yep, that too.

I once asked if 2 legal citizens of the same country could just get into a fake marriage (no honeymoon, no wedding, entirely just on paper only) and take advantage of the system, make note of that I had said 2 legal citizens of the SAME country and not 1 legal citizen trying to help somebody cheat the immigration system as that is forbidden and illegal in many places in the world.

I asked on whether it would really make much of a difference in trying to take advantage of the tax and financial benefits associated with marriage by going through something like that for short term with some other woman that would agree to it. Right now it's not entirely clear, but it's something to consider if it actually make much of a difference, in theory it might help save on costs of the rent and bills but then they can still penalize both "spouses" if their income level goes over a certain amount :(

[Asker]

What you said might just work, but then again, the risk factor is significantly high. I doubt whether I'll tread down that path. I have always been risk-averse, and a law-abiding individual as well.

[hliston187]

Women have always been the submissive other to a man, and because of tradition at the least this is why men take the first step and do a lot of the work. If a girl likes you enough she'll want to be with you and make an effort for you to talk to her if she doesn't talk to you first. I personally believe in some gender roles but they overlap at will it seems and there is a lot of confusion today in relationships partly stemming from the sensitive emotions which come from giving oneself to another. For example if i were to take a girl out to dinner and pay for the meal, and put time into something romantic for Valentine's Day, even small, a girl should feel perhaps to cook you dinner in another random day and give you something for Valentine's Day as well. Sometimes I wonder about the superficiality of love and it's weird how when you aren't thinking about it into detail and have love if you're lucky enough to have it how it does seem spiritual and how it all seems okay and the small problems couples nitpick at any other time go away, even for a little bit

[Asker]

I agree with you, but is it really worth it for us men to bend ourselves backward just to win a woman, who may still leave us at any point, thereby nullifying the time and efforts we spent 'pampering' her?

[hliston187]

You're exactly right there. It's amazing how people conform when they need their own ideas and personalities and how people are stubborn when they need to be more understanding. Society teaches women today that the world revolves around them and the whole feminism movement that really should have expired long ago has given them all the benefits men have without some of the negative consequences. It really bothers me how a woman seems to change just for their man. How about be yourself and be loyal? Being loyal and into one person and only one person is apparently the hard part, but love isn't there if at the beginning of a relationship you have to worry about your partner cheating on you. I've seen as many women do it than men if not more, yet men are always pigs. If only they would look in the mirror

[hliston187]

Even closer to answering your question, I don't think a relationship should be about how much time and effort a man puts in relative to the girl. If a couple is in love, they will help each other out and worry about the small stuff later. Me just taking what I want and giving a girl money and gifts, etc. isn't love, it's a waste of my time. It's a shame how girls take advantage of a man who helps them out. That's shrewd. But a man should spend his time and money, making the first move and everything else out of courtesy without regards to feelings for a girl. What is frustrating is how society teaches people how men need to bow down to the woman and she's always right, yet we're supposed to be equal?

[laurapalmer]

It's the traditional thing to do. We do the things we do because we learn them from somewhere, and this is no different. We were taught that men are supposed to do these things. Now, it's not to say that women can't do them too. These days you find more and more women doing the things you mentioned in your list. Anyway, it's a hell of a lot easier to just sit back and wait for the opportunities to present themselves which is why most women don't really want to change this particular part of our culture.

[Asker]

So that means, men will always have it hard, and women will continue having it easy when it comes to dating and relationships. Makes me wonder, is it even worth all the efforts for us men? I agree we miss out on emotional and physical intimacy, but we do not have to waste away our years in trying to 'win' women, who have become a lot more picky over the years anyway.

[laurapalmer]

If you don't think it's worth the effort, then don't go after anyone.

[Asker]

Yeah, I have decided long back that my goal in life is to slog my ass off and mass immense wealth. Whoever said 'money can't buy happiness', is an idiot. Money is the key to ultimate happiness. When I eventually have that kind of money, why would I even want women? I'll just travel the world and enjoy my life solo.

[Anonymous]

Many women do approach, strike up conversations, initiate kissing/sex/the DTR talk. And a lot of women also usually offer to pay for dates, but they're frequently denied. Why you haven't witnessed this, I guess, is up to you to figure out.

Also, if you think that women do nothing but sit and wait around, then you really know nothing. I don't think we can help you. If you really don't like it, then just don't do it.

[kaylaS91]

Well... if you had any idea about women's rights, or lack thereof, you'd have your answer as to where many of these traditions of men taking 'initiative' stem from.
upload.wikimedia.org/.../...'s_Rights_Timeline.jpg

[Asker]

I agree with you here, but today, aren't men and women equal, at least in the developed world? Then why are we men STILL expected to do everything ourselves, to 'win' women as if they are some 'prizes'?

[kaylaS91]

yes, there's 'equality' in the modern world but as seen in many other instances of marginalized groups such as LGBTQ, the wrong-doings committed against them are not forgotten just like that after centuries of them having been oppressed to the point that many were killed simply for being 'different' from the norm.

[Asker]

So the men of today need to pay the price and undergo punishment for what men of previous generations did to women. Fair enough. :(

[kaylaS91]

... yeah, I suppose. In addition to how many guys feel emasculated if the girl offers to pay for their meal among other things.

[justbanANNAz]

oh here we go...

you obviously don't understand what a woman of the 21st century is about. go meet one.

[Asker]

Where do I meet one? All I see are lazy, self-entitled women who expect men to do everything, while they just take things easy.

These 21st century women I see are only on the internet, who pop up to refute my claims. In reality, I seriously doubt if they exist in a number large enough to make a significant impact.

[justbanANNAz]

that's what you SEE. it isn't what you KNOW. big difference.

[Asker]

Ok, I agree. There is a difference, but where do I go looking for these 21st century women you mention, when they seem to be rarer than four-leaf clovers?

[justbanANNAz]

well we're everywhere. anywhere u go to meet a woman, u have to give her a chance. the fact that ur meeting them with pre conceived notions about them isn't helping u at all.

it's like assuming a black person is gonna be racist towards you the second they see you.
makes no sense.
you need to clear your mind of these illusions you've set up for yourself and realise that we are willing to do our bit. sure some of us are more traditional, and if u don't like it, leave.

[Asker]

Huh? Men giving women a chance? Isn't it women who decide if they want to give us a chance or not, when we approach them? I mean... the ball is always in the woman's court, when it comes to dating and relationships.

[justbanANNAz]

lol, like i said, it's a 2 way street. u can't just assume u know us without giving us a chance to show u what we're about. u wouldn't want us to do that to u right?

[Asker]

I agree. So the only way for us men, is to keep approaching women left and right, until the 10th, 50th or 100th woman we approach eventually says 'yes'? Is this how it works for men who aren't among the top 5% in terms of looks?

[justbanANNAz]

sorry I'm really not getting anywhere with u and it's exhausting. ur clearly set in your ways. good day.

[Asker]

I'm sorry I exhausted you. I really appreciate your inputs.

Looks like dating and relationships aren't for me. I just need to make LOTS of money, because I have realised that money is the key to ultimate happiness. Want to earn a lot, save up, and probably take a solo tour around the world when I retire! :)

[wegetalittletipsy]

My theory:

-For many women, their percieved value is determined by their beauty as they are very attractive. A lot of feminists get pissed off about this because it means most of their other characteristics (personality, intelligence, etc) are ignored and I guess I can't really blame them.
-For many men, their percieved value is determined by their personality, social status, etc as they are not as attractive.

Interestingly if a guy is really attractive the scales flip...
A gorgeous guy (apparently) gets a lot of attention from the opposite sex and can pick and choose. However at the same time, his personality and intelligence are overlooked because he's gorgeous.

[wegetalittletipsy]

can't really blame them for being annoyed about that*

[Anonymous]

Let us all be fair and admit that girls nowadays take several of those steps normally. And whilst all honest we can also admit that yes, women definitely rule the dating world and it is heavily in their favor for the most part.

Woopsiedoo. Unless you can make all men suddenly go on a dating-and-sex-strike it isn't changing anytime soon. Suck it up and find a girl who takes more initiative. If you've even read a couple of posts on Gag you will quickly find that sitting around and waiting isn't working for a lot of women anymore.

[selmo93]

Excuse me thats stereotypical.
1. I approached him
2. I started the convo
3. I asked for the first date and arranged it and drove there also picking him up
4. Ok we split the bill for it
5. Alright he kissed me first
6. I paid and arranged the 2nd date...
7. I led on sex as i told him to wait.
8. I bought him clothes first for Halloween
9. We didn't actually have the chat.

So no it isn't All men. So id appreciate it if you didn't label us all..

[Asker]

Are you sure that you exist, and are not a fictitious character? Lol, women taking initiative is SO DAMN rare.

[selmo93]

Haha well id hope i exist or I've got debts for no reason...
and really? It is the 21st century. We can buy/ do our own crap...

[Asker]

Yes, you can, but you don't (most women, that is). You're probably just an exception, though.

[Amanda2]

That's the tradition, however, I was the first one to kiss my boyfriend, and I gave him the first gift. No relationship is the same, they are all unique but do go by a few general rules. Also, you need to step outside from your negative thinking, or else you will not keep a woman. You sound just as bad as the women you are describing.

[Asker]

It isn't about me, I have realised that I'm not capable of doing the things I described, and hence, I'm not good enough for women. I'd rather focus on making a lot of money, travel the world solo, and enjoy my life. Money is the key to ultimate happiness. Not blaming women, but I am not up to women's standards, and I don't have it in me to 'compete' with other men to win a woman's affection.

Whoever said 'money can't buy happiness' is an idiot.

[idkwtftoputhere]

This is true and it's because it's traditional and it's basically how things have always been but I definitely think more women should start taking more initiative with their love life. Don't go for traditional girls if you don't like doing all the work though

[Anonymous]

because gender roles is better and equality is bullshit, women have to be always pretty, put on make up, can never act natural and have to act girly, wear nice dress and high heels, be quiet and submissive, do all the house work, work like a man and have a carreer and also be a perfect mom. be a woman is a lot more difficult. all guy want to split the bilt now if the girl don't do it she'll never see the guy anymore

[Asker]

You seem to be existing in a parallel world.

[Opinion Owner]

no, at least women don't approach guy because they feel less manly and would reject her always even if it's only for ask them a week later

[Kylesar]

Besides your extremely exaggerated notions that aren't even true, it's predictable and typical to blame the men

[Opinion Owner]

@Kylesar no, that are true, you said men to do all but it's not true, women should be married, have a career, have children, take care of the house, her husband, her children, her career and do all perfectly. If a woman say she want to be a housewives she's bad consider, and if she said she does't want children or just want to focus on her career she is bad consider too. Men just had to ask the girl out the first time and ask her if she want to marry him. It's all they have to do, when woman do all the other stuff. men and woman always split the bill now, because if they doesn't it's bad consider, so and I'm not exaggerate anything, i tell you the brut verity

[FilthyPervert]

If you care so much go be a tranny, the world is not meant for pussies to run it.

Men dominate the world even after feminism happened because we are more efficient and capable of putting effort in than women are. Stop being a pussy and enjoy your dominance.

[Kylesar]

If men start demanding equal effort in dating, women will push them away
Then the men stop giving chase
The women then start chasing the men to start back chasing them
Repeat
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...159326eeeb.jpg

It's a big game of tug-o-war, and questions like this fuel the gender war

[Anonymous]

i promise not all women are like that. i am married now but when i was single i thought it was just as thrilling to make a move or take the lead as vice versa. if a woman expects this list to a t, they are either very old fashioned or insecure (not necessarily both).

[dwiller943]

Can't relate. I must not be what MOST guys go for.
Which is superficial gold-digging skanks.

[Anonymous]

yeah well women do a lot of work to keep a man. ever thought about that. :/

[ihatethiswebsite]

I won't do all that. Either she puts in equal effort or I'm gone.

[Anonymous]

Because of feminist/feminazi society that has developed as a consequence of women's liberation...

[Terrell456]

Ask out 100 women and at least one of them will say yes. Don't believe me? Try it.

[Anonymous]

That's not always true.. not always.

[Asker]

Of course, not always true. There are always exceptions. But usually this is how things work.

[Opinion Owner]

Men and women are different, what we contribute to the courting, and to the relationship are just different, our wants and needs are met differently, and is our contributions to a relationship.
You are not expected to do and say everything. That's like saying in marriage a women normally loses more than a man.

[Asker]

So you mean to say, men have to contribute before marriage, and women do so only after marriage?

[Opinion Owner]

No, I'm saying it's always have been 50% 50 when you are interested in a person, and the efforts in trying to make a relationship work, ... yes both sides do have their shallow bad apples.. but if you can't appreciate the beauty that someone offered you and accept it and understanding we are different then how are you ever going to appreciate your relationship with your women.. and understand her?

[Asker]

On paper it may be 50-50, but what exactly are women doimg anyway, except for saying 'yes' or 'no' when men are bending backwards, trying to win their love and affection?

[Opinion Owner]

No, we are trying to be strong women it's what we do, we are fully equipped to handle emotional situation, it's one of our nurturing contributions. . We are patient, we tend to make the hurt go away while you are bending your back making things work we are rubbing your hurting back making it better, we meet half way all the time. . or you and I right now wouldn't be having this conversation, .. it's contribute. Don't you see.. it's for me to meet you half way with open arms saying how sorry I am that this is happening to you and causing you confusion. It's for me to meet you half way to make you understand. . I don't have to do this but, you can't say women we just sit around waiting. . that's not true, you need to open your eyes and stop being angry and think we have it easier cause we don't

[Asker]

What you say makes sense, but it just does not work for all men because we men need to be the best of the best to even have a chance with women. Otherwise, we get kicked to the curb.

[Opinion Owner]

So, do us women or we get fucked a then tossed to the curb..

Everybody has a type, even you. And I'm not talk just physical type, but even personality wise.. you can't help that. Yes their are a few exceptions, but most people are comfortable dealing out side the box

[Asker]

Yes, I suppose I do have a type, but for the women who are that type, I'm not 'their' type. Women's expectations are too high, no way I can even come close to meet all those requirements. Not blaming them, because they're entitled to have their opinions and requirements. I just know that even if I approach 1000 women, no one will say yes to me. I'm a good man, but I can't compete with other men to 'win' a woman.

So I'd rather focus on amassing a lot of wealth, and live my life solo. Money is the key to ultimate happiness. Winning a woman is not in my hands (because the ball is in her court), but making money is certainly within my reach.

[Opinion Owner]

I guess with this energy you have, you will attract exactly what you want. Don't blame us, when she come along in your life and never not once ever loved you the way you want to be loved. If that's what matters to the most, I'm sure you will find just the perfect person for you to indulge in your materialistic world. Just when she do come a long don't go making the rest of us pay for it.

[Asker]

Not really. Once I manage to reach that kind of financial status, I won't even feel the need to be with a woman, right or wrong. Also, it would be too risky to let a woman into my license at that point, because if there is a divorce, she'll take away my house, car, kids and half my assets.

Once I have money, I wouldn't need anyone. I'll just use the money to travel the world solo, and also donate towards causes. :)

[Opinion Owner]

Sounds real cold and lonely, but okay it your life and your choice, I get it. But it's not all about the money. It's the stress and not being able to trust anyone anymore. It's about the lies people will tell you, think they are doing you a favor by telling you what you want to hear, all to get something from you.

[Asker]

Yeah, it is cold, but what else can I do? Women all over the world hate me. I'm not good enough for them. I'm completely worthless in their eyes. I have never been creepy, or behaved badly with women, yet I am the most undesirable man on the planet. I just need to learn to live with loneliness.

I'll be careful with my money, though. Let people say whatever they want, me and my money aren't easily parted! Hehe! :P