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As a Muslim, Islam gets demonized so much and let me just say it's because when God created Adam, the devil said I hate this creation of the human being you have created, he is clay and I am fire. The devil said I will lead your people astray until the day of judgment. God said very well, those who are good-hearted and repent and believe in me I will provide them heaven in the hereafter for eternity. Those who go against God rules, will go to hell. God saved Islam for last and that's why Israel a Zionist state by illegal territory wants to destroy the Al-Asqa mosque in Jerusalem. That's why the western countries HATE Islam because they know the truth but they (ignorant, the corrupt politicians, etc) are being led astray by the devil whispering into their ears. Where does this tie into women and girls wearing a hijab or covering her body it's because God created women/females/girls as a beautiful, gentle species. When people say Islam hurts women, read the Quran and you will see how women should be treated with respect and dignity. I'm not saying a woman should walk around in a burqa, but if a nun wears garments or clothing that covers her up why is that looked at as a saint, but a Muslim woman is looked at as oppressed? As a guy, I have no right to tell a girl I date or marry to wear a hijab and it's her choice completely. This stupid narrative of ALL MUSLIM MEN OPPRESS THEIR WIVES is bullshit because it doesn't matter what colour your skin is or what race you are or where you are from if people do bad things it's based on their actions not narrowing in one group of people.
This is why all the stupid shit happening in the world today will eventually make this world a terrible place one day. World War 3 will happen, 1/3 of the world will die due to disease and 1/3 will die due to war so thats 65-66% of the population where 7.6-7.7 billion currently exist. This will eventually lead the way for the 12th imam and Jesus to return and finally spread the real truth since every imam and prophet has left the world has gone in a different direction with self-thought, individualism, and just awful things. Religion will be the main focal point and be established once again by God whether people like it or not. Non-believers won't care because they will probably stay in their own ignorant ways unless something changes and sparks something in their hearts. But when the advent of their returns happens, this world will be filled with peace, justice and unity. It won't be a perfect world but just as this world is filled with greed and hate and evil, good will prevail and overlap with good, kindness, generosity and so forth being the dominant pillars of life on earth, God willing.
Below ins a video that talks about what happened when God created this world. I am not forcing Islam on to others, you can believe this or not. But I have to state the truth and me stating this truth is not a lie, I am not deceiving others or being hateful. As a Muslim I can't speak on behalf of 7.6 billion people on this planet. I can't speak on behalf of the near 2 billion Muslims that are here today. I can only worry about my actions, I respect different religions. I don't mind helping Christian organizations. But I tend to find that Christians often attack Muslims because they to can be hateful and think everything lives and dies by Christ. No, that's false if Adam was the first man created by God personally wouldn't that make him the son of God? Jesus was a prophet and when Jesus returns he will shock the Christians and Catholics and Jews and others the truth. Jesus was Muslim, if you look at history all these Middle-East territories was where they were born in, which are Muslim states, that's fact not fiction. Even a Jewish professor admitted this,
Whoever disliked my comment stating truth, it's obvious it's only shaped around your narrative.
Their body was created by God and naked and should be revealed to be adored and stuff. Hiding your physical form for no reason doesn't honor God.
I pray for the day women can walk around naked, like the indigenous tribes in South America, and not be harassed by evil men.
Do you know clothing does not prevent rape and murder and such? The indigenous population in South America has the lowest rate of rape and murder of any civilization in the world. They also marry when boys are 12 years old and girls are 14 years old, with Elder approval anyway, and they can have up to three spouses each, both men and women.
So some men blame women in western civilization for wearing too revealing clothing and say that's why they get raped. This is "blame the victim". If men were righteous, women could walk around naked if they want to and not be harassed and raped... and we'd all get along a lot better too. And if women were righteous they wouldn't falsely accuse men of sex crimes when they don't commit them.
I choose other. I have no issue with women choosing what to wear, I wear things I like. But when it comes to Islamic body coverings I think there is a question whether the women is really making a freewill choose to wear them or has been brainwashed by men and older women around her into thinking that she is a whore if she doesn't. In Islam, body coverings have always been a form of oppressing women. In Iran, women are jailed and killed for protesting the forced wear of hijabs but in free countries women still wear them and it really makes me question their choice. I also don't like seeing a group of Muslim men walking behind their wives in full burka as if they own them. I don't think being brainwashed growing up can mean you are truly making the free choice.
I knew a girl in school who always wore coverings and I once asked her why and she said that her father beat her if she didn't. when she was like 13 she disappeared and we found out later that her mother and father took her to the middle east to get married. I think that is messed up and it shows there are huge issues in the Muslim communities.
You'll heat most of that from men. Their thirsty men who wants to lust after you. And she theu can't they call you religious or a prude. The women who agree will shame her just because they know she will most likely find a good man over her. Since good men don't lust, they respect women. Or theu find it highly oppressive. I personally think it's a good thing to cover up. But if that is part of their tradition and it technically would be part of a Godly tradition anyway, I personally don't see anything wrong with it. I can do it if I want to, but I would do it for myself and it's got called me to do it. But other than that, I'm okay with or without it. I honestly don't see why other people have to try to dictate what you wear when you're not even exposing yourself. But when others choose to expose themselves, they want to know why they get called out the way they do. It's the entire thing. Racism, Prejudice, stereotypes, it's just all into one.
Opinion
55Opinion
From what I've gathered, it's mainly people misinterpreting a woman's choice as her being forced and oppressed.
While of course I condemn women being forced to wear the hijab in the name of Islam, because it is wrong and that goes against what the Qur'an says, al-baqara 256: "Let there be no compulsion in religion."
But at the same time if a woman chooses to wear the hijab there shouldn't be any controversy about it. And anyone who wants a woman who chooses to wear the hijab to stop wearing it, is just as bad as people who force women to wear it.
I agree 100% but some people just can't get their mind and make stupid conclusion when it comes to muslims women and their hijabs, they just can't get it- they can accept the nuns covering on faith but can't when it comes to muslims lmfao- disgusting
Completely agreed with you.
I genuinely feel that the angriest most ill informed people when it comes to this subject are the least open to meeting people outside their comfort zone. In my (pre-lockdown) lifetime, I've met enough people from all religion and races to realise a dickhead is a dickhead regardless and a good person is a good person again regardless of any race or religion. What the issue is and what is relevant to this question is when people have pre-conceived ideas/opinions without knowing the full facts, so if a person of religion chooses to wear clothes to cover their body then that's none of my business, if a person is forced to wear clothes/act in a certain way then I'm entitled to a opinion. That logic transcends religion, transcends age, transcends race and is relevant to any subject.
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Well the one Muslim female I banged said her family does that stuff because of where they are from. Even though she's Muslim and has been to the middle east like three times she considers herself American and dresses that way. It's a culture thing.
So to answer your question people are probably scared of cultures unfamiliar to them.
I agree middle east culture do seem stricts about hair covering cuz Muslim in my place aren't like that tho 🤔 I heard in Saudi and Iran they have laws about it, I don't know if that apply to non-Muslims as well but yeah that's kinda true 👌🏻
In Saudi Arabia they just now are able to drive. So yeah. Hell I can show you pics of her. She wears American clothes. Her family doesn't. It's just a where you're from thing.
Yes I did heard about the female drivers issue in Saudi lmfao whatta joke 🐒
Yeah it's sad. I feel sorry for those people.
I'm a libertarian. If a woman chooses to cover her body, that's fine with me. I don't want her FORCED to cover her body, or her hair, but if it's by choice, no problem.
My only exceptions are that no one should be allowed to cover their face for an official ID photo, or at your job if that job requires security (for example, I worked in IT for a bank/credit card company, and even though I wasn't at a bank branch [no cash on the premises or anything], we were required to wear photo badges and the photo had to match the face).
Other than that, wear what you choose.
That you have the choice to isn't the primary issue. It's that you don't have the choice not to. Honour culture is a serious issue when it tries to integrate into western society. We've had scores of murders here in Sweden pertaining to it. Girls and boys both slain by family members because they did *not* want to cover themselves or because they did not want to marry that person.
Western society is founded on Judaeo-Christian ethics of personal freedom and responsibility. Islamic totalitarianism has no place here.
When Syrian villages deep in ISIS territory were liberated a few years back, hundreds of women threw off their Niqabs and Hijabs and Burkhas.
As for Catholic nuns, who are the only Christians to do this, their coverings are a uniform for Church service. It's not permanent nor obligatory to wear at all times.
"That you have the choice to isn't the primary issue. It's that you don't have the choice not to. Honour culture is a serious issue when it tries to integrate into western society"
The hijab has nothing to do with honour culture- that's what a minority of people have turned it into. But if you look at it from an Islamic perspective Islam promotes modesty for both men and women. And a number of men and women feel most modest when covering their head so the women wear a hijab and the men wear a topi. Force is not Islamic as al-baqara 256 states: "let there be no compulsion in religion."
I know there are some cases where women are forced to wear it, and I as a Muslim don't condone this. But there have also been cases of modern day slavery in the West where a number westerners keep vulnerable people like immigrants as slaves- and in many cases those slaves are made to wear short revealing clothes they don't feel comfortable with. Does that mean we see wearing revealing clothes as an issue? No! Because even though, some women have been forced to wear that kind of clothing, not all women wear it because they forced to they wear it as a choice. I'm sure the woman who was kept as a modern day slave by westerners would throw the revealing clothes off once they got the chance and get changed into clothes which made them feel comfortable.
That doesn't mean we have an issue with women wearing revealing clothes, nor does it mean we see revealing clothes as a symbol of oppression does it? No, it doesn't- and the same should apply to the hijab.
"As for Catholic nuns, who are the only Christians to do this, their coverings are a uniform for Church service. It's not permanent nor obligatory to wear at all times."
The hijab not obligatory for us Muslims to wear at all times either- I don't wear the physical head covering at all times, only when I pray. And I know many girls like me who do the same, and the girls I know- wear it out of their own choice. I have known some in the past, who wear it because their parents are forcing them to, but I know far more girls who wear it out of choice.
Why is it people think the minority with a problem who don't know their religion properly speak for us all? We don't let modern slavery cases speak for women who want to revealing clothes, do we? So why let cases of oppression speak for the hijab?
Oppression is wrong whether someone is forced to hijab, or forced to wear revealing clothes and we do need to weed it out of society. But don't blame the piece of clothing, blame the person's mindset. Because many women happily wear the hijab out of their own choice.
Quite a while back, on my old account, I wrote a MyTake about the hijab and what it really is- I think you could do with reading it, so here you go: What The Hijab Really Is ↗
@SpiderManFan2002 I had a feeling someone would go off on a tangent.
It does have to do with it. Because we've had countless cases regarding its obligatory wearing here in Sweden. I am an aquaintance of a Soheila Fors, an Iranian born Swede of the same political party as I. She has devoted herself to fighting honour culture among our immigrants. Many cases pertain to what they are forced to wear, and she's even held lectures on how the women, regarded as second-class citizens in traditional Islamic countries, (this you cannot deny, until recently women couldn't even drive in Saudi Arabia) are indoctrinated from youth to pass on these traditions of compliance. Time and time again she's been contacted by young Muslim children in Sweden seeking an out from their religion or from their family's rigid control or arranged marriage, but apostasy is violently punished in Islam and many have been killed by their families, others have narrowly escaped.
I'm sorry spider, I have no qualms with you personally, but I simply do not believe you and so many other moderate muslims who incessantly claim it's a minority. Studies on the Quran speak against that claim. I'm not saying I'm dismissing your arguments entirely off-hand, I just dispute them from experience, observation and other learned men's words, which includes ex-imams I have listened to.
This video I found interesting, Mr. Shapiro evaluating the minority claim. https://youtu.be/g7TAAw3oQvg
I should add that my collegue Soheila, is also under constant threat to her life by muslims all over our country who do not like her meddling in their honour-culture. Many a time she's been forced to flee from public places because of harrassment and near-altercations.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard Firstly, I never said people aren't forced to wear the hijab. I know a number of women are but where a number of women are, a number of women aren't. Why put two women who wear the same piece of clothing for different reasons under the same category?
I'm not going off on a tangent at all. It feels like my points towards a double standard have been ignored. At school once, I watched a video about modern slavery, in the UK. The video was about this lady who was an immigrant who had been kept as a modern slave, but was now rescued. One of the first things she said when she got rescued was something like: "I didn't like the clothes they made me wear, like short skirts." And there are thousands more like her.
Now, there you have it, a woman forced to wear a piece of clothing she doesn't want to wear. So should I assume every girl wearing a short is skirt is wearing it because of oppression? I mean there will be thousands of women kept as modern slaves forced to wear revealing clothes that will make them uncomfortable and if they choose to wear anything else they will also be threatened with violence or even death. So why don't people view revealing clothes the same way they view the hijab when force occurs?
I'm not denying force in the name of religion doesn't occur, it does and lots of girls are forced to wear the hijab. But that's not Islam. That's Muslims. There's a difference. Islam is the religion, Muslims are the people following it. And believe it or not but many Muslims are actually misinformed about Islam- that's not the fault of the religion that's the fault of the people.
I don't deny the oppression of women in *Muslim* countries, note I said Muslim, not Islamic. Because if those countries were actually Islamic they wouldn't regard anyone as a second-class citizen.
And moving on to what you said about children in Sweden, firstly I think you are mistaking an arranged marriage for a forced marriage. An arranged marriage is simply where, the parents will pick potential partners for their child, and the child will happily pick one partner out of their choice and be okay with it. An arranged marriage is consensual and many have turned out just fine my parents had an arranged marriage and they're doing fine.
A forced marriage is probably what those children are running from. A forced marriage is where, parents choose someone to marry for their child (the child could be of any age) and force them to marry that person against their will.
The key difference between forced and arranged marriage is an arranged marriage is agreed between the parents and the child (again of any age, my parents were almost 30 when they had theirs) and a forced marriage is the parents forcing the child against the child's will.
And there have also been many cases of forced marriage in the UK. But we have many organisations here, setup by Muslim women teaching people that forced marriage is not apart of Islam.
Nor forced or arranged marriage is apart of Islam. Forced and arranged marriage is more of a cultural thing than a religious one. My parents are British Pakistani and their parents are immigrants from Pakistan. They didn't have an arranged marriage because of Islam, they had an arranged marriage because of Pakistani culture.
And for what you say about apostasy being punished in Islam, that is false. In Islam people are free to leave, without punishment. It's Muslims who create punishments not Islam and I as a Muslim completely condemn that
"Studies on the Quran speak against that claim."
Which studies exactly? I'm not putting you on the spot, I'm just curious to see what content it is you're looking at.
And as for your video on Shapiro, I watched it, listened to him and found immense flaws. Firstly, I agree with him on some points i. e. honour killings and terrorism- those views are radical. But calling people radical because they want strict Sharia Law in my opinion, is ultimately biased and false. There are a lot of misconceptions about Sharia Law as a Muslim author once taught me- and that author also taught me that many Muslim countries do not carry out Sharia Law correctly, but simply calling someone a radical because they want Sharia Law is absurd. Secondly his point about 9/11 being at fault of the USA- I don't see how that makes somebody a radical either because many people including non-Muslims do believe 9/11 was an inside job, I've seen non-Muslim people on G@G who even believe that, so I don't see how that makes someone a radical.
Thirdly, what Shapiro does not state is that the study he didn't state that the study was based off of samples not the general population, nor did he state that the study was conducted in 2010. So that video was uploaded in 2014 so at the time he made the video, the study he was using was already 4 years old, and given that now it is 2020 and the study was conducted in December 2010 that study is almost 10 years old, so we don't know the people's views today in 2020 while I disagree with a lot of the people's views in that study, we don't know if they still hold those same views today almost 10 years later.
And if the majority of them still do have similar views, then what do we do? You educate them about Islam properly.
And another point about that study, the study was said to have been done in samples- so where were the samples taken from? Were they all selected at random, or were they taken from specific areas of the community? Was the study diverse enough? We don't know.
Moreover, I believe Shapiro's video was biased, for many reasons stated above.
And if your colleague's life is under threat then that's the fault of those Muslims who threaten her life, not Islam. In the UK we do have a number organisations setup by Muslims in an attempt to stop honour-culture and Islam, maybe she could get in contact with one of those organisations and talk about setting up a Swedish organisation similar to the British ones we have here?
Honour-culture has no place in Islam, despite the fact it is indeed practiced by a number of Muslims. But instead of blaming Islam and the Muslim community as a whole (I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just talking about generally now) we need to think of ways to combat extremism and educate people. In order to do that, you need to understand firstly, the hijab itself has nothing to do with honour-culture for a number Muslim women it's main objective is modesty, but also for a number of Muslim women they have been forced into wearing it due to extremism. That is wrong and needs to be identified and stopped, but don't tell the ones who choose to wear it that they shouldn't wear it either. You need to distinguish Islam from so-called "Islamic" extremism if you really want to abolish honour-culture.
Now many Muslims, like myself, would happily help you with that because we don't believe in honour-culture or extremism either- but you have to listen to us and our point of view as well, and you have to understand when you accuse "Muslims" of something a lot of us do feel like you are also putting us under that same category, and when you accuse "Islam" of something it feels to many of us like you're trying to portray our religion in a bad light. Even though, that might not be your intention you have to consider how others may interpret it.
And you have to acknowledge the women who choose to wear the hijab as well as the women who are forced. You can't tell every Muslim woman she doesn't have the choice when a number of us do, you're only highlighting the ones which don't- and that's no way to attempt to end honour-culture because once you dismiss the Muslims who aren't wearing it due to honour-culture- the whole Muslim community feel like you're not representing us all. You could use those women who wear it out of choice as an example, and you could get them to explain why- but by dismissing them, you miss that opportunity and therefore make it harder for yourself to combat honour-culture as it looks as if you're not willing to understand the difference between Islam and honour-culture itself.
Had this been two years ago and I was a little younger, I probably would have viewed you as Islamophobic. But now I'm older and I have a better understanding, what I really see is just like extremists, you are misinformed. So if you want to learn about Islam or have another perspective on the Muslim community, my inbox is always open and I will answer your questions to the best of my ability and I will direct to sources that could perhaps explain it better than I could.
Your flaw is you don't learn directly from Muslims. You always "hear" things, or learn from a second or third hand source like Ben Shapiro who in my opinion does have an agenda. You have your Muslim colleague that's one Muslim, so why not try and learn from another? There's 1.8 billion of us in the world, not all of us are going to think the same the way.
I'll be willing to teach you, so feel free to ask any questions. You have to understand the other side, if you want to have any influence over them.
@SpiderManFan2002 Geez Spider, 8 replies all at once. Too much! Try to comprise shorter and more concise retorts or in all honesty I won't have the energy to go through it all. But I'll do it with this one, but let's try to shorten replies in case this debate draws on. My reply right now will likewise be in parts.
But in any case. Firstly you make the "modern slave" comparison and I honestly wasn't informed on such a matter, I don't know about thousands of cases, you'd have to provide solid proof.
But regardless, you're making a false comparison as it were regarding double standards. I was commenting on the forceful nature of Islam and traditions that encompass its teachings with regards to clothing, this "slave" issue, if you can call it that is a separate, secular matter. Actual slavery does still exist, but then we're talking the underground criminal slave markets in Libya for example. Where people are herded and sold like cattle much like they were centuries ago. I'm just wondering if the cases you have mentioned concerns slavery or if that title is an embellishment on your part.
@SpiderManFan2002 Right, so you do not deny that it does transpire and that it is a problem. Then the question becomes is this simply the works of a few rotten adherents or is there a fundamental flaw in Islam. Regarding apostasy, we know, it is a well known fact, that countries such as Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, all Islamic countries, pursue state law in the killing of apostates to Islam. I have acquaintances in Sweden from respective countries who have experienced this persecution first hand. So that is simply case closed, it's not a lie, and given your age Spider, might just be that you've been told it's false by parents or your local imam and taken it for fact. So why is it then, since you so staunchly deny that true Islamic countries do not practice this, that every single Islamic country does? How can there be so many counterfeit interpretations at once? Does that not imply something inherent within Islamic teaching that leans towards oppression? What other factors can we speculate on to explain this clear pattern?
As for proof on this matter, take this evaluation by an article. "Converting from Islam to another religion is punishable by death" www.theguardian.com/.../where-in-the-world-is-it-worst-place-to-be-a-christian
@SpiderManFan2002 Arranged marriages, forced marriages, semantics. Your part on that really doesn't say anything. The argued point is the same. Children are being compelled to marriages despite Swedish law against it, and flee from it to people like my colleague.
Now as for the Quran claim you inquired on, we have this for example, www.asma-lamrabet.com/.../
A quote from the source: "When we go back to the origin of the term Hijab, which means to "hide" or "separate" (...) The "Hijab" was imposed on Muslim women as a way of "separation" in order to show them their place in society, and exclude them. Indeed, to substitute the Khimar with the Hijab is to confuse two different registers. While Khimar remains, according to the Qur’anic vision, a sign of women’s social visibility, Hijab undoubtedly symbolizes their relegation to the private space."
The Hijab, the Niqab, the Burkha, Khimar etc. They aren't just garments, they are Islamic tradition exemplifying women's status in such a society.
Alright, I just do not buy for one second that Sharia law is misunderstood or "not that bad". To mention but one excerpt of principles therein, shoplifters loose their entire hands if caught. Sharia law would also mean that men wouldn't be obligated to even shake the hands of women in the workplace thus implying a disagreement on equality between them as colleagues. We've had such a mishap here once when a politician in a rather disreputable party refused to shake the hand of a female journalist.
Whether, "not that bad" in your eyes or not, none of that has any place nor automatic right to exist in Western society, you desire such laws, you travel to Islamic-centered countries. In essence, Islamic principles on many a count is a direct antithesis to western values.
@SpiderManFan2002 While it isn't my wish to make you uncomfortable nor come across as aggressively accusatory, inevitably this kind of discussion will elude to speaking plainly. I'm a Christian. I follow Jesus Christ with all my heart, my conviction is that Islam is a false teaching of the Devil to challenge the truth of Christ. And I value honesty above what many would deem to be, "tact", in avoiding expressing what you truly stand for. I have listened to ex-Imams, ex-Muslims, ex-Iranian citizens, they all have the common theme. Islam is not a religion of peace, its adherents lie on what it entails, and Islam has an agenda of domination where they gradually infiltrate the politics of their host nations with Islamism, "laying low" until they are "strong enough to strike" these are not my words, but that of a former Imam who took part in brainwashing young people to fight the US.
@SpiderManFan2002 Your point on Shapiro's video is valid however. It's an old study, but old studies aren't automatically invalid. And if we are to judge by the remarkable rise in Islamic terrorism these past years with ISIS, your argument of changed values doesn't hold up.
Okay here's my proof regarding modern slavery: www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/slavery-uk/
It does exist and there will be many cases on that website you can read about. Of course I can't find the specific case I watched at school, but modern slavery does exist, it was such a problem they had to create the "Modern Slavery Act 2015" in UK Parliament. It couldn't have been a small problem for them to have created an Act of Parliament about the matter. Modern slavery is actual slavery and thousands of people are exploited because of it.
And again, it's not the forceful nature of Islam- it's the forceful nature of particular Muslims- know the difference. Islam states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" so how can Islam be forceful?
". Regarding apostasy, we know, it is a well known fact, that countries such as Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, all Islamic countries, pursue state law in the killing of apostates to Islam. I have acquaintances in Sweden from respective countries who have experienced this persecution first hand. So that is simply case closed, it's not a lie, and given your age Spider, might just be that you've been told it's false by parents or your local imam and taken it for fact."
I am aware that certain Muslim countries do persecute those who leave Islam, and that is incorrect. I am fully aware that is true. But Islam itself, does not promote killing those who have left the religion. And my parents have told me that. But to be sure of it, I've researched it myself, and I can confirm that while in many Muslim countries persecution for leaving Islam unfortunately exists, in the religion of Islam persecution for those who leave Islam does not exist.
" So why is it then, since you so staunchly deny that true Islamic countries do not practice this, that every single Islamic country does?"
I don't know why every Muslim country practices it. If you look to the Qur'an and look to the experts and scholars who analyse it, a number of them will tell you that these countries are practicing wrong- much like the Muslim author told me.
"Does that not imply something inherent within Islamic teaching that leans towards oppression?"
I can see your point, but then no, I can't say teachings of Islam leans towards oppression because if you look to the Qur'an it directly opposes oppression: abuaminaelias.com/.../
"What other factors can we speculate on to explain this clear pattern?"
Well human nature. Muslims are only human after all, and some Muslims will oppress in the name of religion because they haven't been taught Islam correctly, and some will do it because bending the verses suit their agenda- I don't know, I'm not one of those people.
@SpiderManFan2002 The source you listed seem to be speaking of child trafficking, which indeed is a huge problem but it's a slight misnomer to call it slavery and to link it to this debate.
Furthermore the site claims that the UK pursues a, "hostile immigration environment" and neither defines what they mean by that phrase nor substantiates the claim with any evidence. They claim that victims abroad are seen as immigration offenders but do not specify this either. So an activist site like, "anti-slavery" I find hard to take for a valid source.
But back to the Islamic issue concerning adherents vs Islam. You say that you've been informed otherwise so to speak, by a Muslim author but does that not ring like a biased source to solely draw from to you? I have this article for example, where a supposedly "top-Muslim scholar" even states that you cannot deny the link between violence and orthodox Islam time.com/.../
A couple of quotes from the article: "Within the classical tradition, the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is assumed to be one of segregation and enmity. Within the Islamic tradition, the state is a single, universal entity that unites all Muslims under the rule of one man who leads them in opposition to, and conflict with, the non-Muslim world."
"No, it is not. [ISIS’s] goal of establishing a global caliphate stands squarely within the orthodox Islamic tradition."
This furthermore matches what ex-Imams have personally informed me as well.
So you even seem to have inside criticism, as did Islam even when it first broke out around 650 AD by several prominent Arab figures.
@SpiderManFan2002 The point on human nature is perfectly reasonable, but no Christian nation espouses such laws as Muslim ones does. And in connecting the issue back to slavery, Christian nations were the first to take steps against it. National laws against it came to France as early as 1315, decreed by the King that anyone that sat foot on French soil was free. Part of the reason why overseas colony-slavery took on. Christian abolitionists were among the first to oppose it in Britain and the US, and as early as 1833 the British Empire criminalized slavery. And as it happens, the very last nation to abolish slavery, where traces are found to this day, Mauritania, an Islamic Republic.
@SpiderManFan2002 But I will concede that the source you listed do indicate that the Quran speaks against oppression. But this in the most general sense and in this particular verse. It's a long book after all.
@SpiderManFan2002 sheesh Spider I didn’t know you were such a Muslim apologist lol WoW. My roommate is a Sunni Pakistani as well except in sunny San Francisco not the depressing blegh UK. Of course he’s no terrorist but he’s definitely pretty messy ha ha...
@theChineseWASP She's Muslim herself as I've understood so naturally she'll defend her position, I do not begrudge her that. I'm not doubting that she and her family are decent and good people, but there's always exceptions.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "Arranged marriages, forced marriages, semantic"
But they're not. The key difference between an arranged marriage and a forced marriage is that an arranged marriage is consensual between the parents and the child of the parents, and a force marriage someone being forced to marry someone typically, parents forcing a child to marry someone. And note when I say "child" I simply mean offspring of the parents not someone who is under 18. Arranged marriage and forced marriage are two very different things, and if you fail to see this then you are simply ignorant.
"A quote from the source: "When we go back to the origin of the term Hijab, which means to "hide" or "separate" (...) The "Hijab" was imposed on Muslim women as a way of "separation" in order to show them their place in society, and exclude them."
When she is talking about that, she is talking about what Muslim people did in the name of Islam but not Islam itself. She is it you from several angles yet you are only choosing to look at it one way. Note she also said:
"In fact, the first Muslim women put on the Khimar as part of the Qur’anic message of liberation and a symbol of dignity." - So if Muslim women wear it for that reason, then I don't see the issue, as they put it on for a message of liberation and dignity.
She then goes on to say: "The Khimar, according to its original meaning of women's liberation and as a symbol of their participation along with men in the socio-political space, was therefore gradually replaced by the other Qur'anic concept of Hijab to prevent women from participating in the social field." - So what I gather from this, is Khimar originally meant the liberation of women as that's the reason many women decided to wear it, but then people used the term "hijab" to shift it and turn it into something else for their own agendas.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard She then states: "However, given that the Qur’an did not insist on a specific clothing or appearance for women, it would be very simplistic to analyze the few verses on the dress far from the guidance of the spiritual message about the global body ethics for both men and women.
The Qur'an invites both men and women to behave with "decency" and "integrity", both physically and morally. The Qur'an does not legislate a strictly religious "uniform" as it is shown here, and the first spiritual message did not intend to stipulate rigid or "fixed" dress standards once and for all, but rather to "recommend" an "attitude" or an "ethic" regarding the body and soul." So the Qur'an does not have a specific uniform for women or men, and it would be very small-minded to view it that way. The Qur'an promotes modesty for both men and women and we do not have a strictly religious uniform and fixed dress standards like many believe (both Muslims and non-Muslims) we do. Instead it advises us to behave modestly.
Another quote from the article: "But it is really unfortunate that the first intention of the spiritual message of Islam is often neglected or completely ignored at the expense of a literal reading which keeps no more than "the obligation of wearing the Hijab” out of all the Qur'anic teachings about women! This contradicts the principles of the spiritual message and its spiritual ethics." So as I said, a number of people misinterpret and neglect what the Qur'an actually says, and often take things at face value, rather than exploring what is truly meant by the verse and teachings.
"The question of Khimar or scarf is not part of the pillars of Islam, but rather of moral values, behavior and relational ethics." So wearing the hijab is not obligatory, it is more of a cultural thing which is sometimes forced because people misunderstand Islam, or women wear it out of choice because that is how they feel they can be most modest and the closest to Allah.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "The religious faith is meaningful only when it is practiced without pressure. Therefore, speaking about the obligation of Islam to wear a headscarf or Khimar is spiritually unacceptable because the Qur'an said: "No compulsion in religion." It is one of the main principles of Islam." This is similar to what I said earlier. There is no uniform that any Muslim is made to wear, so anyone who forces the hijab upon someone is directly going against Islam so the problem is not with Islam but with the person. Equally, if a woman wants to wear a hijab or veil- even though it is not obligatory in Islam, we cannot say to her she can't wear it because that's her way of expressing she is a Muslim, telling her she cannot wear it when she wants to wear it is also oppression. So we have to let her wear it.
"Reducing the whole global Qur'anic body ethics to the so-called "veil" is to stand against the same message. And this is exactly what happened in the Islamic history by focusing on woman’s dress, and the obligation to "hide" and "conceal "her body. As a result, this spiritual symbol has become a sign of oppression in the Muslim world." - This is the problem you are identifying, but this isn't the fault of Islam it's the fault of particular Muslim people who have interpreted Islam in one particular way, that contradicts the Qur'an, so again the people are at fault for not learning what the Qur'an says properly or ignoring what the Qur'an says for their own personal agendas- both of those reasons are actually very unislamic.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard Alright, I just do not buy for one second that Sharia law is misunderstood or "not that bad"." - Why don't you? You're a politician. You should keep an open mind about things instead of judging them based off of what you have heard. Many educated Muslims have criticised Muslim countries for not practicing Shariah correctly. I have found a number of sources you can read up on to try and understand Shariah better:
https://www.mpvusa.org/sharia-law
www.huffpost.com/.../what-is-sharia-law-and-should-you-be-scared_b_57a55232e4b0ccb0237254a4
www.huffpost.com/.../sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813
www.huffpost.com/.../understanding-sharia-law-_b_844624
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../5-facts-you-need-to-know-about-sharia-law_n_5788f567e4b03fc3ee507c01
And as for theft in Islamic law, here is the ruling on theft: www.islamweb.net/.../the-ruling-of-theft-in-islam
And may I also add about Shariah Law and Islamic Law is that it only applies to Muslims, it does not apply to non-Muslims, so you, a Christian would not be affected by Shariah Law.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "none of that has any place nor automatic right to exist in Western society, you desire such laws, you travel to Islamic-centered countries. In essence, Islamic principles on many a count is a direct antithesis to western values."
I never said it does, but even if it did- it would not apply to non-Muslims as non-Muslims don't follow the Qur'an therefore they do not follow Shariah. As for my personal opinion on the matter would I want Shariah to be implemented in the UK? Not really, the English Legal System works fine for me, so I don't see why we would need Shariah but let's say it was- it would only apply to Muslims, not non-Muslims.
"While it isn't my wish to make you uncomfortable nor come across as aggressively accusatory, inevitably this kind of discussion will elude to speaking plainly."
You're not making me uncomfortable, at all. I take part in discussion like this all the time believe it or not I have done since I was 14, and it's actually been people like you who have negative image of Muslims and Islam who have actually pushed me to look into my religion more than anyone, just so I can prove you wrong so ironically you're helping me learn my own religion better, so again ironically, you're doing me a favour.
"I'm a Christian. I follow Jesus Christ with all my heart, my conviction is that Islam is a false teaching of the Devil to challenge the truth of Christ."
I respect the fact that you're a Christian, the Qur'an actually suggests I should respect you as a Christian because Christianity existed before Islam did. You can believe that all you want, as a Muslim I have to respect your belief but wholeheartedly disagree with it. And it's worth noting that I too, do believe in Jesus, however, I don't believe he is the son of God, or the holy spirit or God himself, (I don't know if you believe that but many Christians do believe in the trinity) but we think of Jesus as one of our prophets- a messenger of Islam, and we call him Isa.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "And I value honesty above what many would deem to be, "tact", in avoiding expressing what you truly stand for. I have listened to ex-Imams, ex-Muslims, ex-Iranian citizens, they all have the common theme. Islam is not a religion of peace, its adherents lie on what it entails, and Islam has an agenda of domination where they gradually infiltrate the politics of their host nations with Islamism, "laying low" until they are "strong enough to strike" these are not my words, but that of a former Imam who took part in brainwashing young people to fight the US."
You have listened to one type of person. People who are against Islam, and I have listened to them too, and they are the ones who make me also look into my religion and learn about it, and once I've gotten to what I believe is the truth, my faith is stronger than ever. And though I disagree with ex-Muslims, ex-Iranian citizens, ex-Imams views on Islam, I do respect their view and I do believe they have the right to their belief.
And as for the imam again, you are looking at one imam and allowing him to speak for the whole of Islam. Firstly, I would not consider that man to be an imam just because he says he is one does not make him one. I have no problem with the West. I am both Western and Eastern. I am born in the West yet I am of Pakistani heritage. There are many imams who also preach good, so why don't you hear what they have to say? There is good and bad in all communities.
In the South of America, there are some Churches with which I believe extreme views i. e. I heard one banned interracial marriage at one point. But I don't allow that one Church to speak for the whole of Christianity for me, because like I have met good Muslims I have met good Christians too, who tell me about their religion and I listen to them directly.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "But no Christian nation espouses such laws as Muslim ones does."
Are you sure about that? Russia? A woman had her arms chopped off in Russia as a result of domestic violence www.bbc.co.uk/.../russia-domestic-abuse-my-husband-chopped-off-my-hands So arguably domestic abuse laws in Russia a Christian nation need to be evaluated. That's just one example I can think of but I am sure there are more.
"You say that you've been informed otherwise so to speak, by a Muslim author but does that not ring like a biased source to solely draw from to you?"
Well nobody to an extent is completely unbiased. You are biased towards Christianity, and against Islam and you say you have gotten your information from people like ex-Muslims, how do you not know they are biased against Islam? We are all biased to an extent but can only try not to be, and what the Muslim author taught me he backed up with quotes from the Quran, so I didn't believe he blindly- he presented me evidence.
"So you even seem to have inside criticism, as did Islam even when it first broke out around 650 AD by several prominent Arab figures."
Of course we do, as I stated previously there are 1.8 billion of us in the world not all of us think the same way- of course people will criticise it and I'm open to listening to those views, like I am yours and challenging them if they conflict with my own.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "But I will concede that the source you listed do indicate that the Quran speaks against oppression."
Thank you.
"But this in the most general sense and in this particular verse. It's a long book after all."
Yes it is a long book with many verses, note I also provided you with al-baqara 256: "let there be no compulsion in religion" and many verses which seem violent are often taken out of context. You have to understand the Qur'an is translated from Classical Arabic, and it is not the same as Arabic spoken by many Arabs today. It's like old English and English spoken today, the two aren't the same, are they? And quite often people mistranslate things, or don't translate them accurately enough so it's important we look into these verses rather than just reading them and making a decision about them.
@theChineseWASP Well I'm a Muslim, the way I see it, if I don't correct misconceptions about my religion, who will? And lol yeah, UK weather is bipolar one minute it's sunny the next it's rainy- I swear one day it was sunny, snowy and rainy all in the same day.
Lol I don't know how I got to talking about that but whatever yeah hi lol
@alexanderbrunnrgaard And also I'll have you known me and my family are not the exceptions, all it is, is people like me and my family often aren't highlighted by the media because we get on with our lives and practice our religion.
@SpiderManFan2002 sorry Spider but I think you’re going to have a hard life if you fight so hard for something the rest of your society does not sympathize with. I’ve been there too and it just saddens me to see a 17 year old embark on a losing lifelong battle.
@theChineseWASP Well, it's better I try than not try. If I try and it falls upon deaf ears, especially if these debates are recorded and written online- history will see I tried my best yet not many people listened or were sympathetic. But if I don't even try and engage and give up before I started nobody will ever hear the opposing side to these people who are unsympathetic towards us in society, so people will only ever see one side to the story told.
In many instances in history at the time things were fought for i. e. womens' rights, POC rights, the Jewish people in Nazi germany- they were all losing battles at the time they were fought because society was unsympathetic towards them, but look at how we today view all those matters in history, so while they may have appeared to be losing at the time they were fighting, did they really lose?
I'd like to think not, given how we view all those issues in history today.
@SpiderManFan2002 You're making the claim that any arranged marriage by virtue of having that name means it's fully consensual. That is a flawed argument. It can be entirely forced upon young children who are merely being obedient because they've been taught to, not because they wish for this union.
I meant that it's semantics in the way that you're speaking as if all these cases of fleeing youths does not pertain to an element of force, when it does, otherwise they would not be fleeing. Call it either of the two, but it concerns unwillingness.
Right. But the point is that the tradition with the clothes and hijabs exists, whether contorted from the original or not this is what permeates it all, not the first intent. By highlighting an original meaning and contrasting it to what it became, the author, perhaps unknowingly, is admitting to the problem.
Being a politician does not mean I "have to be" anything, but loyal to what I believe in and fight for in my country. And my distrust of sharia being bad comes from discernment and observation, not simply because I'm not open minded. And the last source you provided does prove the fact of the hand-chopping.
You come back continuously to it being a matter of simply a few bad eggs. But these people comprise nations. And while it is true that not all religious Muslims are radicals, there is a clear over-representation of Muslim radicals.
So every single example are just people who are biased and possesses an agenda? Whenever Islam is talked of negatively in however great quantities it's just untrue and misinformed at every count? That argument does not work as an excuse in the long run. Not when examples grow too numerous.
@SpiderManFan2002 yes but religion is not one of those things that history will look kindly on. I speak as a religious person myself (Christian) but history will never remember religion fondly that I’m pretty sure...
@SpiderManFan2002 You have also mainly stated but one "Muslim author" who's apparently taught you everything on the falsehoods people hold about Islam, on the topic of, "one kind of person". So I'd say you're being a bit hypocritical there. And you furthermore do not know whatsoever to what extent I've listened to people nor in what variety. I gave you examples of ex-Muslims and people who've lived under Islamic rule because they're credible sources, far more credible than Ben Shapiro just talking about it, in the big picture. Obviously, devoted Muslims themselves won't ever speak poorly of Islam in any way nor admit to any fundamental flaws. But the article I linked with a top-Muslim academic isn't even a convert or defect either. But even he advocates for honesty concerning Islamic teaching, yet no matter how many examples you seem to just want to fall back on a minority and falsehood argument that grows weaker every time you regurgitate it.
Yeah, there's good and bad *aspects* of everything. That doesn't make the whole right. There were perfectly rational arguments against ending slavery, such as toppling the economy which under-girded society at that point, that didn't make slavery right on the whole. Gen. Robert E. Lee of the Confederacy was documented to be quite ethical in approaches to war at times, that didn't make the confederacy the right side in the civil war.
You're not being very intellectually honest with the Russian example Spider. This concerns a singular criminal act, it isn't tied to Russian laws on what a man can and cannot do to a wife nor does Christianity factor in anywhere as a motivation for it. You make several false comparisons when arguing.
I'm glad you look positively at the exchanges you have, but don't be haughty. I wouldn't say at all that I've been proven wrong in any way as of yet. You rather seem to me to just talk around the issue.
Not to mention that Russia is hardly a Christian nation. They simply have an Orthodox Christian cultural legacy.
I don’t blame all of Islam though just the fundamentalists circling around the holy cities in the Middle East. The rest of the Muslim world is pretty innocuous I’d I’ve to say.::
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "You're making the claim that any arranged marriage by virtue of having that name means it's fully consensual. That is a flawed argument. It can be entirely forced upon young children who are merely being obedient because they've been taught to, not because they wish for this union."
If it's not consensual then it's not an arranged marriage it's a forced marriage. In an arranged marriage the parents simply pick suitors from their offspring to choose from- like in my parents case, my dad chose my mum and my mum chose my dad- but it was arranged because it was my grandparents who found them for each other and introduced them to each other. They both happily married consensually and had two children.
"I meant that it's semantics in the way that you're speaking as if all these cases of fleeing youths does not pertain to an element of force, when it does, otherwise they would not be fleeing. Call it either of the two, but it concerns unwillingness."
Youth flee forced marriages not arranged ones, if their marriages were arranged then they'd be happy with it- but they're not happy with it and don't consent to it, therefore, it is not arranged it is forced.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "By highlighting an original meaning and contrasting it to what it became, the author, perhaps unknowingly, is admitting to the problem."
Of course she and I are both going to admit a problem when a problem exists. But as well as highlighting that problem is important we also should acknowledge that not all girls who wear the hijab face that problem, and we should have those girls help us, help the girls who do face that problem and people who do have those misconceptions.
"Being a politician does not mean I "have to be" anything, but loyal to what I believe in and fight for in my country"
I suppose that is true, you don't "have to be" anything but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "And my distrust of sharia being bad comes from discernment and observation, not simply because I'm not open minded."
I don't want to disrespect you, so don't think I am trying to when I say this but, I don't believe you have good judgement when it comes to Shariah. Because while many Muslim countries claim they practice Shariah, many Muslims do believe they do not practice Shariah correctly and I agree with those Muslims who say they don't practice Shariah correctly, because those countries miss out key points in Shariah stated in Islamic texts like the four credible witnesses rule. Those Muslims make up better arguments in my eyes therefore I side up with them.
"And the last source you provided does prove the fact of the hand-chopping."
Yes it does, we do have hand chopping for the most severe cases I never stated we didn't, but it also shows that it has to be a very very serious case and every box needs to be ticked in order for that punishment to take place, again something which many Muslims don't carry out.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard " But these people comprise nations. And while it is true that not all religious Muslims are radicals, there is a clear over-representation of Muslim radicals."
Again true to an extent, but I assure in the nations where radicals exist good people also exist. And it's important we help those good people amplify their message to educate the bad in my eyes.
"So every single example are just people who are biased and possesses an agenda?"
Not completely biased, but you can't deny everyone has their own biases. Like are against Islam, I am for Islam, so of course we will lean to arguments suiting our opinions. But over the years, I have learned that it's important we listen to the other side, and try and understand things from their point of view if we want to oppose their arguments. And ultimately even if they are disrespectful towards you and disagree with you- you have to respect them.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "Whenever Islam is talked of negatively in however great quantities it's just untrue and misinformed at every count? That argument does not work as an excuse in the long run. Not when examples grow too numerous."
It depends how it is talked about negatively. If someone disagrees with the true teachings of Islam i. e. men and women being modest in all ways and they talk about that negatively because they disagree with that, then it isn't wrong because men and women are told to be modest in all ways in Islam and Islam promotes modesty- so that is true, and if someone disagrees with that then that's not a case of misinformation in Islam that's simply someone disagreeing with a teaching of Islam.
If someone talks badly about Islam because they believe the hijab is obligatory and women are forced to wear it then yes that is untrue and a misconception.
And it is possible for masses to misunderstand an ideology. Especially when their actions contradict quotes from the Qur'an i. e. quotes about oppression I provided earlier.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "You have also mainly stated but one "Muslim author" who's apparently taught you everything on the falsehoods people hold about Islam, on the topic of, "one kind of person". So I'd say you're being a bit hypocritical there."
I never said he taught me everything, he just taught about Islamic Law. And as I have said in previous replies, I have listened to arguments from people with similar views to you, but I oppose them with the Islamic teachings I have been taught.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "And you furthermore do not know whatsoever to what extent I've listened to people nor in what variety. I gave you examples of ex-Muslims and people who've lived under Islamic rule because they're credible sources"
True I don't know that, so I shouldn't assume, and neither should you. I apologise for that. But I don't believe the rulings practiced by those countries are Islamic because they go against what the Qur'an says about oppression and compulsion. I am truly sorry that those people have had to flee those countries due to oppression and if I had it my way, everyone regardless of their religion or non-religion would have their rights, because to deny anyone of their rights is oppression and that goes against what the Qur'an says.
"Ben Shapiro just talking about it, in the big picture."
He labels people radicals simply for believing in Shariah when he doesn't even not what interpretation of Shariah they have. And bare in mind those people were taken from samples, not the general population like he insinuates.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard So while he is free to have that belief, I do disagree with him on that instance. But on the teachings about honour killings and terrorism I agree those are radical beliefs and non-Islamic beliefs because both of them promote oppression something which again goes against the teachings of the Qur'an.
And note the study is from 10 years ago, in 10 years who's to say people can't become educated realise their faults and change their beliefs?
"Obviously, devoted Muslims themselves won't ever speak poorly of Islam in any way nor admit to any fundamental flaws."
No, I won't speak poorly of Islam but I will speak poorly of people who claim they are Muslims and misrepresent Islam. I don't agree with Muslims who oppress or force in the name of Islam, as that is wrong and goes against teachings in the Qur'an.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard
"But the article I linked with a top-Muslim academic isn't even a convert or defect either. But even he advocates for honesty concerning Islamic teaching"
I do partially agree with what he has had. I do think the extremism does have something to do with Islam, but I believe the extremist view of Islam is distorted- because the Qur'an directly speaks against oppression, and against compulsion. So when the extremists behave in an extreme manner in the name of Islam, it goes against what the Qur'an teaches which contradicts Islam.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "That doesn't make the whole right."
When did I claim "the whole" of the Muslim community was "right?" Of course we have bad people in our community like you do yours, I condemn those people and don't agree with them and I challenge all forms of extremism because extremism leads to oppression and the Qur'an teaches that oppression is wrong, so it is my duty as a Muslim to challenge any form of oppression.
"You're not being very intellectually honest with the Russian example Spider. This concerns a singular criminal act, it isn't tied to Russian laws on what a man can and cannot do to a wife"
Russia is a Christian nation. Orthodox or not it's still Christian. And read this article here: www.opendemocracy.net/.../
@alexanderbrunnrgaard The Orthodox Church called to boycott the domestic abuse Bill one Russian politician proposed: “It has an obvious anti-family orientation, reducing the rights and freedoms of people who have chosen a familial way of life and birth and the raising of children,” the statement read. “By unjustly overburdening families and parents, the draft law effectively introduces ‘punishment for family life’.”
So religion does definitely have an influence on Russian law to an extent, so my example, still stands where there is extremism in all religions and in some instances that can affect the Law.
The Russian Parliament also dropped penalties for domestic violence and domestic abuse cases in Russia have been increasing because of that, so in actual fact it is tied to Russian laws, so there is a problem there too.
But I don't let extremism in Christianity and in a Christian country speak for Christianity, no, I believe Christian extremists should be challenged just like the Muslim extremists should- and both should be educated about what their religions truly stand for. I don't paint Christians all the with same brush.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard With being a Muslim and being stereotyped, I have learned that it's important you stereotype nobody no matter how many people in their community seem to be doing bad things- and you certainly don't stereotype a religion. I have heard violent verses from the Bible, but I won't judge that because I don't believe I am knowledgeable enough to. And if a Christian fundamentalist's tried to tell me about Christianity of course I'd disagree with his or hers views but I wouldn't let them speak for the whole of Christianity because that conflicts with what many other Christians have told me- and they've presented evidence to me too, so I agree with the non-Extremist arguments towards Christianity. I don't believe Christianity is an extreme religion.
"I'm glad you look positively at the exchanges you have, but don't be haughty. I wouldn't say at all that I've been proven wrong in any way as of yet. You rather seem to me to just talk around the issue."
I apologise to you, if I do come across as haughty, but that isn't my intention, but none the less, I am sorry.
I believe I have proven you wrong however, in several instances but if you feel you're still right that's okay with me you are entitled to your belief, though I respectfully disagree with it. I hope you have a good whatever time of day it is in Sweden, thank you for engaging in this debate with me. Even if we can't come to an agreement I've had fun debating with you, and if you do have any questions about Islam my inbox is always open to you, if you want another perspective that is, and if you don't that's also okay, whatever floats your boat. :)
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "I wouldn't say at all that I've been proven wrong in any way as of yet. You rather seem to me to just talk around the issue."
Oh and to add to this, I'll tell you how I've proven you wrong.
1.) I started by bringing to light that not all Muslim women are forced to wear the hijab. Whilst I acknowledge a number of them are, many are also not and many *want* to wear the hijab. Some wear it to get closer to Allah, some wear it to make a statement that they are Muslim, girls who choose to wear it, wear it for various reasons. And to say to those girls: "You don't have a choice" as you said to the OP is simply false, and wanting to take that choice away from them just because in your eyes it "has no place in the West" makes you just as bad as the men who force women to wear hijabs. The correct thing to do is to give women a choice to wear it, and a choice not to.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 2.) I brought up the modern day slavery issue. Call it "human trafficking" or what you want but it is also referred to as "modern day slavery" because people are kept against their will, in some instances forced into sex, and wearing clothes they don't want to wear, and labour. It is modern day slavery, even an Act of Parliament states that. If you really want more sources, then here you go:
From April 2020: www.theguardian.com/.../number-of-potential-modern-slavery-victims-in-uk-rises-by-52
A 2019 annual report on modern day slavery: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/.../...t_2019.pdf
An organisation against modern day slavery and human trafficking explaining the two terms: www.unseenuk.org/modern-slavery/modern-slavery
And yes, in many cases women who are victims of modern day slavery have been forced to wear revealing clothes. But that doesn't mean we view revealing clothes as a symbol of oppression because some women choose to wear revealing clothes. Just like some women are forced to wear the hijab and some women wear it out of choice.
The two points link because they're both about women being forced to wear an item of clothing they don't want to wear yet in other instances many women will wear those same items of clothing out of choice. So we shouldn't see either piece of clothing as controversial or wrong, moreover, they should only be seen as wrong when a woman is forced to wear one against her will. As long as it's her choice, then what she chooses to wear should not be an issue.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 3.) Your Ben Shapiro video. Firstly it's flawed because of how he manipulates the then four year old study, and now ten year old study. Secondly the topline of that study states:
"Data based on national samples except in Pakistan where the samples are disproportionately urban"
So it's not based off of the whole Muslim population in those countries like Shapiro leads people to believe, it was based off of *samples* in those countries and we don't know how big those samples were. Not every single Muslim in the country participated in those studies so he can't say there are X amount of radicals. So that study is flawed. Not to mention, the study is 10 years old now and was 4 years old then so who's to say, that the *samples* didn't have different views on certain matters when Shapiro made that video, or now in 2020?
4.) I have quoted verses from the Qur'an i. e. "let there be no compulsion in religion" and linked you to a source where the Qur'an speaks against oppression, so that proves when people force in the name of Islam and or oppress in the name of Islam, it goes against the Qur'an which goes against Islam.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 5.) Forced marriages and arranged marriages. I've told you the difference between the two. I don't see what is wrong with parents picking out potential suitors for their adult child, and their adult child choosing one of the suitors their parents picked- and if there is nobody the adult child likes, then they simply reject them all, but if that adult child happens to like one of the suitors their parents picked for them then they will happily consensually marry like my parents did.
Forced marriage is where the parents force a marriage upon a child that is under or aged or over 18, and that goes against Islam given what al-baqara 256 says.
So no, forced marriages and arranged marriages aren't semantic like you keep on saying the two are very different.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 5.) Shariah- I provided you with sources explaining Shariah, even one with the ruling about chopping hands off, and how that can only happen in severe cases not the way it is carried out in many Muslim countries. In fact I'll provide you with them again:
https://www.mpvusa.org/sharia-law
www.huffpost.com/.../what-is-sharia-law-and-should-you-be-scared_b_57a55232e4b0ccb0237254a4
www.huffpost.com/.../sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813
www.huffpost.com/.../understanding-sharia-law-_b_844624
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../5-facts-you-need-to-know-about-sharia-law_n_5788f567e4b03fc3ee507c01
And as for theft in Islamic law, here is the ruling on theft: www.islamweb.net/.../the-ruling-of-theft-in-islam
So to call someone a radical who states they believe in Shariah is wrong, and it's important to know that not all Muslims want to implement Shariah Law in non-Muslim countries. I have no desire to do that, and nor does any Muslim I know. The English Legal System works fine for us, I'm a law student for crying out loud and there are many Muslims who study law in my class too and elsewhere. If we really wanted Shariah we wouldn't be studying English Law. We're just normal people, getting on with life.
And let's say by some chance Shariah was implemented in a Western country, well, it wouldn't apply to non-Muslims as Shariah only applies to those who are Muslim. But Shariah is highly unlikely to be implemented in the West, so really, it's nothing to worry about.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 6.) Even in the Asma Lambert source you provided she makes many of the points I made previously yet you choose to focus on one bit of her text, reflecting how the hijab has been used to oppress then claiming she may have mistakenly put it in there. No she didn't, she's acknowledging while many Muslim women wear it out of choice, that in history and even today it has been used by some people as an oppressive tool, but she also goes on to say how in Islam that isn't right, but I didn't see you quoting that part of the article.
7.) I and many other Muslims acknowledge in a number of instances people have oppressed people in the name of Islam. And in a number of instances the hijab has been forced upon women- we don't deny that, because if we deny it we're ignoring oppression. However, we also acknowledge that many women choose to wear the hijab, something which you don't seem to be acknowledging. If you're against Muslim women being oppressed by wearing the hijab, then I stand with you. However, if you fail to acknowledge that a number of Muslim women wear the hijab out of choice, and you don't support them in having that choice, and you believe they are oppressed by their choice to wear the clothing which makes them feel their best, then I can't support you, because as I said previously, that makes you no different, in my eyes, to someone who forces the hijab upon women.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 8.) Your "evidence" against the minority claim. Firstly, the flaws in Shapiro's study as I mention in number 3, but also, until you can show me more than half the 1.8 billion Muslims in the world hold radical beliefs, then your point stands. But until then, you don't really have a leg to stand on. In your experience you may have come across more extremists which is unfortunate, but in my experience I have come across far more peaceful Muslims who do practice Islam properly and don't hold radical beliefs and in my opinion, we can't all be "exceptions" as you claim. And I have come across Muslims online from Muslim countries which don't hold radical beliefs as well, they just simply believe live and let live. So you can't really back that claim up by "experience" because everyone's experience is different. You have come across more extremists it would seem, whereas I have come across more peaceful people- two conflicting experiences, both truthful. But the main reason why I believe it is a minority within the community, because if the majority of us were radicals- that's over a billion people, nobody would stand a chance, but the non-radicals don't get highlighted by the media as much because we just fit in with society and get on with our lives, nor does Islam get highlighted as much when it pushes people to do good deeds for the community. Not to mention in that video Shapiro asks questions like: "You scared yet?" which makes me believe he just wants to spread fear more than anything.
9.) You make points about terrorism and ISIS, yet the group who ISIS kill most- are Muslims. And globally it's actually Muslims who disagree with ISIS who are victimized the most by terrorist groups like ISIS is something studies show: abcnews.go.com/.../story?id=48131273
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 10.) Adding to your points about terrorism, well another kind of terrorism is rising the USA and Europe. White supremacy and far-right extremism. Note that I know not all white people are white supremacists and not all right-wingers are far-right extremists but it is rising, and that too, is a form of terrorism in my eyes, and many white supremacists and far-right extremists are also Christian fundamentalists and extremists but I am aware these extremists do not represent the whole Christian community. Take the KKK for example, that's a terrorist organisation, that believes in lynching people of colour, and marched in Charlottesville in 2017 chanting things like: "Jews will not replace us" and "You will not replace us" and the KKK is inspired by Christian extremism.
Here's an article on Christian nationalism and white supremacy from 2020: www.salon.com/.../
Here's an article stating white supremacy isn't a national issue, it's a global one in 2015: www.pri.org/.../white-supremacy-isnt-just-national-problem-its-global
White supremacy in Poland in 2017: www.theguardian.com/.../white-europe-60000-nationalists-march-on-polands-independence-day
And there will be many more cases.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard
11.) The points I made about Russia. That domestic abuse case wasn't just one criminal case, it was one of many domestic abuse cases in Russia, one of the reasons being, Russian Parliament eased domestic abuse Laws, and it's places like the Orthodox Church which spoke against the domestic abuse Bill due to "family structure". Russia identifies as a Christian nation even if it's not your type of Christian.
12.) I don't deny that there is extremism in the name of Islam. Nor do I deny there is extremism in the name of Christianity. But what I do deny is that either form of extremism is not true Islam nor is it true Christianity. And extremism is in all communities and it kills and harms people. I believe that extremism in the name of any religion is a misrepresentation of that religion, and that community as a whole and I for not one second believe that any religious extremist group holds a majority within that religious community until evidence is presented to me that it does. I have grown up in a multicultural society and have met good people from many different faiths and non-faiths. And I believe regardless of where you are in the world, whether it be the East or the West, that everyone should have freedom of religion and anyone who takes that freedom away or desires to is just as bad as someone who forces religion upon someone.
13.) It was fun debating with you as I stated previously. So thank you, and have a nice whatever time of day it is you read this. :)
@SpiderManFan2002 Nowhere have I ever seen an engraved rule stating that arranged marriages are per definition voluntary. That's why they're *arranged* not freely entered into, the actual definition of them are a union wherein the partner is selected by the parents and/or family members rather than the concerned couple, it says nothing of a consensual factor needing to be present. I'm sorry Spider but you can repeat the same faulty definition all you want, it changes nothing.
The article you linked on Russia says that they have an issue with domestic violence and that the church has made a statement regarding the potential negative effects of the bill concerning the authority of police to remove family members, and that the domestic violence situation isn't what media paints it to be. Nowhere does the Church actively support domestic violence, so still no Spider. A false comparison.
Extremism in Christianity is exceedingly small. In Islam it is extremely significant. That is the simple fact, and that does not mean that I paint every Muslim as an extremist as I previously stated. So the argument you are making to not generalize I have never said I disagree with. But you're derailing the debate there to be about generalization when it only concerns the simple facts of what religion is riddled with extremism.
1, I never said every single Muslim woman is forced to, which invalidates that entire passage you're on about. I was pointing out the problem of compulsory clothing which you too admit to being an issue. So do not try to make it into something I did not say. Honour-culture is an issue, period. Honour-culture stems from Muslim contexts, period. this is a problem. And that is what has no place in the West, period. That is all I said, all I meant.
2,
2, This point is still linked to the first where I repeat that the premise for which you opposed me was an incorrect claim on what I was saying.
3, Sample researches are valid methods to draw on general attitudes because it is very implausible to conduct a scale-study of the entire general populous. And as for the time frame, that's just speculation on your part, one whether or not attitudes have changed, and doesn't really weigh in that much as an argument. As I said, we've had a great increase in Islamic terrorism this past decade, so some aspects speak against changed values.
4, Yes, but still Islam's adherents are a staunchly and traditionally a authoritarian/totalitarian lot. It's somewhat akin to Communism, the claims of what the basic idea means is incessantly made, it's about the withering away of the state and labour-rule, a Utopia. But in every single instance it was attempted the results were the same, dictatorship, elitism, bankruptcy, revolts, starvation etc.
I personally think you need to take the question more seriously, why it is that Islamic teaching has this prevalent pattern of oppression, persecution, extremism and as I mentioned, the very last traces of slavery today are within an Islamic republic, to reflect on that more deeply than just shrugging and saying you don't know.
@SpiderManFan2002 5, the problem here is that you're regaling me with *a* version of arranged marriages, one presumably your parents had, all the while assuming that's how it's always done in every case. I have heard of and read of arranged marriages within India, where the parents select a bride or groom and the child must simply like it and deal with it.
I really don't care how extreme the case must be. The punishment is radical either way. You saying it's wrong to ever call a Sharia-follower a radical is purely subjective on your part.
6, A very convenient criterion to make seeing as we both know you can't make statistics on individually held beliefs for that amount of people. That's not how research is conducted. What we do know is that there is an obscene amount of Islamic terrorist groups. Hizbollah, IRGC, Quds, Hamas, Talibans, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Boko-Haram, Islamic liberation front and many, many more. The center of the debate is the over-representation in Islam, not that every single Muslim is this or that.
7, You also have the problem that you link dozens of articles from BBC, abc and the like, who aren't professional sources, nor do they refer to any such, and are always incredibly angled and politicized. You cannot under-gird arguments by posing all these as facts. And while I have heard before that Muslims are targeted the most by ISIS, this doesn't change the argument. It's still Islamic adherents on Islamic adherents, and Christians have been documented as the most persecuted faith on Earth. The Yazidis of the Nineveh plains were entirely wiped out by IS and the world did not bat an eye.
@SpiderManFan2002 White supremacy is indeed a rising problem in the US. But very rarely and in isolated instances have they been linked to Christian beliefs and if so, it's only a shallow statement the perpetrators make to contrast against Islam and highlight American legacy as Christian, not so much because they claim to be Christian and point to the Bible for arguments.
Conclusively I think I have gotten across my main message so I'll agree it was fun debating with you. But for future reference I should say that a barrage of words and linked sources doesn't make your arguments better, nor does quantity of replies mean you've won a debate, (as I logged in to see 44 notifications from you). That matter lies in the *quality* of your arguments.
Have a pleasant day in the UK to you as well, and God bless.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 1.) I'm repeating facts, look up "forced marriage vs arranged marriage" anywhere and every source will tell you exactly what I'm telling you:
www.unchainedatlast.org/.../
www.highspeedtraining.co.uk/.../
karmanirvana.org.uk/.../
Here even a victim of forced marriage (who isn't Muslim by the way) will tell you the difference between forced and arranged marriages: www.bbc.co.uk/.../772ba2fc-2f1a-4db6-95fd-a58c0f0aca39
The minute either the bride or groom doesn't consent to marriage it becomes a forced one, not an arranged on- there is a reason why *forced marriages* are illegal in the UK but arranged ones are not.
If you're too ignorant to see that there is a difference between the two, and many people get happily married through arranged marriages- then that's on you, and you will continue to be blinded by your own ignorance.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 2. "Nowhere does the Church actively support domestic violence, so still no Spider. A false comparison."
No it isn't "a false comparison." By making a statement against a domestic violence law, then to me, that says the Church would prefer a woman to be a victim of domestic violence, and that story is an example of what a man can do to his wife in Russia, here's another story on the matter:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50493758
Domestic abuse laws need to be stricter in Russia, to improve women's rights, and the Church arguing against that Bill plays a role in them not getting passed because Russia is a religious country and the Church will be a vast external influence on the Parliament.
By arguing against that Bill the Church is preventing women's rights being implemented in that country.
I wonder if this had been a Masjid in a Muslim country would you have viewed it differently. I would have viewed it in the same way.
"Extremism in Christianity is exceedingly small. In Islam it is extremely significant."
Is it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism
@alexanderbrunnrgaard I don't believe it is "small" I believe it is rising. Sure, I believe it's a minority within the Christian community, just like I believe terrorism in the name of Islam is a minority within the Muslim community because if either communities had majority terrorists- we wouldn't stand a chance.
If someone believes people of colour is are inferior to white people, they are an extremist.
If someone believes the West should only be for Christianity, then they are an extremist.
If someone believes that Muslims are actually majority extremists or any religion has majority extremists, then they are an extremist, whether they know it or not.
"never said every single Muslim woman is forced to, which invalidates that entire passage you're on about."
So why is it when the OP said: "why does it consider as different when a muslim woman choose to "cover up her body"?
You said: "It's that you don't have the choice not to."
When she clearly asked why do people have an issue when a Muslim woman *chooses* to cover up her body- you ignored the question, and the fact she had a choice and you told her she didn't. This question wasn't about force- it was about when a Muslim woman chooses to.
I agree with you, force is a big issue and should be condemned in *every* form. But will you admit to me, that if a woman chooses to wear a hijab it shouldn't controversial or an issue and society should allow her to wear what she chooses without trying to shame her for it?
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 2.) I never said your claim was incorrect, I was talking from an Islamic perspective. From an Islamic perspective the hijab has nothing to do with honour-culture if you solely look at religion like I was doing. But from a cultural perspective a number of women don't have a choice to wear the hijab and people do use Islam as an excuse for that, but from an actual Islamic perspective given the verses about compulsion, and oppression- them forcing their daughter to wear the hijab in the name of Islam, is not at all Islamic because that goes against what the Qur'an says. That's all I was pointing out.
I then moved onto comparing two issues where women are forced to wear clothes they don't like against their will. The situations slightly differ but are similar in the woman is forced to wear something she doesn't want to wear- the only difference in that being the clothing she is forced to wear.
You said: "he source you listed seem to be speaking of child trafficking, which indeed is a huge problem but it's a slight misnomer to call it slavery and to link it to this debate." I provided you with a perfectly valid organisation, it is called, "anti-slavery" because modern slavery exists. I even provided you with an Act of Parliament calling it modern slavery.
How we link it to the debate, is that in some modern slavery cases women have been forced into wearing clothes they don't want to wear- yet when a girl wears clothes out of choice that a modern slave is forced to wear- we don't see the clothes that girl chooses to wear as controversial, yet when a girl is forced to wear the hijab, and another girl wears the hijab out of choice- suddenly some people even see the girl who wears it out of choice as an issue, and she gets dismissed much like you dismissed the OP's point of the question in your original answer.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 3. "Sample researches are valid methods to draw on general attitudes because it is very implausible to conduct a scale-study of the entire general populous."
So if that's the case, then why didn't Shapiro make that clear in his video, that this isn't an overly accurate representation of the populations and this is just a general representation so he could have easily been wrong.
"And as for the time frame, that's just speculation on your part, one whether or not attitudes have changed, and doesn't really weigh in that much as an argument."
Of course it weighs in because if people's beliefs have changed it means they have learned that some of their previous beliefs were not okay.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "Yes, but still Islam's adherents are a staunchly and traditionally a authoritarian/totalitarian lot. It's somewhat akin to Communism, the claims of what the basic idea means is incessantly made, it's about the withering away of the state and labour-rule, a Utopia. But in every single instance it was attempted the results were the same, dictatorship, elitism, bankruptcy, revolts, starvation etc.
I personally think you need to take the question more seriously, why it is that Islamic teaching has this prevalent pattern of oppression, persecution, extremism and as I mentioned, the very last traces of slavery today are within an Islamic republic, to reflect on that more deeply than just shrugging and saying you don't know."
If you look to the Qur'an you see will see true Islam, that's the only source where you will get an accurate representation of Islam. And it's funny you talk about Communism yet Russia is a communist state and a Christian country. Islam doesn't have teachings of oppression, persecution, and extremism and Islamic teachings don't either. My source of Islam is the Qur'an. But what I do know, is a number of people who claim to be Muslim, teach oppression, persecution, and extremism. And that is not Islamic given the Quranic verses about oppression and compulsion in religion. I can't tell you why those countries teach that way, when the Qur'an clearly says differently. One HuffPost US author actually said he believes America is most Islamic country in the world as it gives people freedom to choose for themselves rather than forcing things in the name of religion upon them.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard 5.) Your next point about arranged marriages. Those marriages in India may be called arranged marriages, but they're not. They're either forced marriages or if you really want to get "arranged" in there forced arranged marriages. But as I said previously, if arranged marriages and forced marriages were semantic- then the UK would have also made an Act against arranged marriages but they didn't given they have banned forced marriages and not arranged ones- says a lot to me.
And the fact that you mention India, further proves my point that forced marriages aren't religious, they're cultural. In India there is a large Hindu majority, followed by 200 million Muslims, and 28 million Christians. I guarantee you every one of those demographics has been subjected to forced marriages and *consensual* arranged marriages which further proves my point that, forced marriages and consensual arranged marriages are cultural not religious.
"I really don't care how extreme the case must be. The punishment is radical either way. You saying it's wrong to ever call a Sharia-follower a radical is purely subjective on your part."
Well in that instance, should someone call a Christian who believes in the Old Testament a radical because they believe the "eye for an eye" teaching is radical?
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "A very convenient criterion to make seeing as we both know you can't make statistics on individually held beliefs for that amount of people."
Exactly yet you have this belief that it's not a minority of Muslims that are radical which makes me think you believe the majority of us are, yet you can't prove that- you can only make that assumption based off of things you hear and your own experiences.
And you list Muslim terrorist organisations well here are the Christian ones:
The Army of God, Eastern Lightning, a. k. a. the Church of the Almighty God, The Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), TheNational Liberation Front of Tripura, The Phineas Priesthood, The Concerned Christians, the Ku Klux Klan.
www.splcenter.org/.../holy-hate-far-right%E2%80%99s-radicalization-religion
www.salon.com/.../
theintercept.com/.../
www.indepthnews.net/.../2588-why-a-white-christian-isn-t-called-a-terrorist
www.nytimes.com/.../...terrorism-christchurch.html
So if you're going to use terror groups, as a way to justify your belief that most Muslims are in actual fact radical- you don't really have a leg to stand on because I can easily bring up more Christian Far-Right *terrorist* organisations. The only problem is, the media won't report Christian terrorism as Christian terrorism- that I don't why either. You tell me.
@alexanderbrunnrgaard "You cannot under-gird arguments by posing all these as facts. And while I have heard before that Muslims are targeted the most by ISIS, this doesn't change the argument. It's still Islamic adherents on Islamic adherents"
The thing is though, it is a fact. And it's extremist attacks on Muslims, on Islamic on Islamic.
"The Yazidis of the Nineveh plains were entirely wiped out by IS and the world did not bat an eye."
Well I don't condone that either, and every Muslim I wouldn't condone that. And Islam wouldn't condone that because that is a form of oppression.
"White supremacy is indeed a rising problem in the US."
White supremacy is a global issue actually, not just a rising problem in the USA.
"But very rarely and in isolated instances have they been linked to Christian beliefs and if so, it's only a shallow statement the perpetrators make to contrast against Islam and highlight American legacy as Christian"
That's not what my sources above say.
"nor does quantity of replies mean you've won a debate"
I don't believe it does, but in order to explain my points, I use a lot of words. That's just me. I link to sources as forms of evidence because sometimes those sources can convey what I am trying to say, better than I can. I believe my arguments are quality, if you don't, that's cool we can't agree on everything- but I write this much mainly for people who will read them in the future and judge us based on these arguments.
With that said, have a good day. :)
Your poll options do not give all the possible answers, and only push the answers in one direction. Therefore it's not a true fair question, but it's begging the question. And the problem is not that women are covering up. Women can do whatever they want. Or at least they should be able to. The problem is that they are forced to cover up. Do you see this woman? She was arrested in Saudi Arabia for dressing like this. That is the problem
I dont have any problem with who ever is choosing to cover up for their own faith but I do if they are trying to brain wash me in to doing the same. happened to me before while I was with two small girls the age of 6. I had to tell them to mind their own business. So I guess I can ask the same question.
I have no issue with that being her personal choice. It is when that choice is no longer a choice but demanded by some of the radical groups, or sharia law.
Personally, I think that God created women to be very beautiful, and very appealing so that we love them, and want to have children, and live in healthy, family relationships.
I find it personally offensive, that some think that women's God-given beauty should be covered and hidden, because why? Because some men cannot control their lust, and urges? That is on them and their sin, and not the woman's!
It's 2020 and people still don't know what racism is? Religion is different from race. Being muslim is like being vegan/feminist/anti or pro-choice/ anti-vax and so on, not black/white/Asian
Yeah and I bet most of then think Muslims equal to Arabs lmfao 🤡
My answer to the poll was lack of knowledge about culture and religion. I'm surprised to see that the lady in the middle pic is wearing a face-full of makeup. I don't know all the rules of covering up, but it seems like that wouldn't be approved of because it's making her more attractive and brings more attention to her femininity?
Oh really? For me is... let them wear what they want as long as it's on their own will. I've no problem on that wether they wanna be naked, half naked, full wrapped, half wrapped it's none of my business, sorry if it bothers you. 💁🏻♀️
It's a cultural thing, they are pushed by both family and society. If they don't obey, they will be shunned. If you let people choose for themselves, you will find many different opinions for what is the right amount of skin shown, at least in free countries. But somehow all Muslims agree on what defines right in that question, no difference that all. It kinda raises an eyebrow if you ask me.
I hope you know that culture is culture and religion is religion yeah- cuz when it comes to family/natives/society that means the culture is the main problem, because religion is free to follow, but people can't just take care of their own shit by telling how women should and shouldn't wear.
Not all Muslims, just some. You are generalized one fault to everyone and I don't think it's fair isn't it- 🤷🏻♀️
Well, that's a nice ideal, but you are forgetting we live in a flawed world. Laws in most Muslim countries are based off of religion. You can't avoid religion from a cultured which is heavily influenced by it.
Why were women denied the right to own driving licenses for so long (luckily not the case anymore) if it weren't for religious indocrination that women are subservient to men and their needs?
Say no more but vote for "lack of knowledge in culture and religion". I know this happen a lot in the west, its called "ignorance" yet "free speech" is used to define certain stuffs-
I have no issue with women/men who choose to cover their body.
I have issue with people who cover their body not out of free will, but because of cultural/religious pressure and the gender inequality (amongst other things) this perpetuates.
As a Christian, I'm far from an apologist for Islam, but when modesty is promoted I see it as a good thing. (Unless you stone people for immodesty, etc.) If women, of their own free will, choose to cover up, I support them fully.
I notice that Muslim and Hindu women also prize virginity more than women who claim to be Christians.
There's a cultural, familial, societal and patriarchal de facto compulsion in a lot of cultures.
There is not the free will, else one will be shamed, castigated, or even worse.
I support free will. Not subjugation.
I also don't support groups making impositions relating to sexuality. Sex is natural and healthy. A person's sexuality is their own business, and I cannot abide by hypocritical and moralistic impositions from people who get up to their own wickedness behind closed doors. But yes, religious coverings just seems an extension of 'property rights'.
I'm imagining a world with 100% free-will rn. Must be real good huh, no laws, no rules, no one talking about morals, no whatsoever, what a peaceful world... "kay I'm out lmfao" whatta disaster- 🤡🐒
I think every person should be free in what they want to wear. For example, when a woman wears a hat, we do not have any problems with her, but why should we have a problem with a woman who covers her head for religious reasons?
At last.. someone who knows the different between free speech and hate speech, surprising you're just 15 lmfao- adults should be smarter but nah 👌🏻
I live in an arab country so I guess I have an objective opinion on this.
Most of my female muslim friends don't want to wear it or are brainwashed to wear it.
Some though, actually do want it, and I respect their choice.
To be fair I really don't care about how the person wants to dress, it ain't my business.
The reason how this all started is because Muslim men are very insecure and do not have enough confidence to trust their women from cheating and or enticing others. So they cover up the women out of fear and treat their women lower than dogs.
It's the same tactic used from any man who abuses their significant or children. Beat them and install enough fear in them that they must be submissive and bow down to their master.
The only difference here is Muslim women full hardly adopted their fearfulness WORLDWIDE without ever fighting back. This is why distancing 5 feet behind their man is less likely to reach them hitting their men while they walk.
I bet u get the information from anti-islam. com lmfao- this is what happen when you let clowns stating informations, completely false ✊🏿✊🏾✊🏽✊🏼✊🏻
Should start changing your username to 'down' instead of 'up' cuz thats all u do- 🤮
That topic is tricky and may lead to something not nice.
But due to humans being a curious being it's fine to ask.
It's thier religion nuff said.
Like why do other worship cows.
Why you pray to a guy on a cross.
Why worship satan.
It's a stupid topic to begin with and end with.
I have enough on my table to deal with why the sun shines well because.
The whole idea is that the woman's beauty should be preserved only for her man, and nobody else should see it, lest they get perverse thoughts about a woman who is not their wife.
So if the woman agrees with that, I don't see the problem in her dressing in such a manner.
Up until the mid to late 1970's the women in most Muslim countries dressed like Americans or European women. They were very liberated until their governments were taken over by radicalized regimes.
I feel horrible for the ones who are forced to live in fear and abused under these regimes.
The ones who would be considered orthodox would wear them and they have every right to, but it's absolutely horrifying to the ones who seek to be free women when they are considered to be less than a man, physically and mentally abused or allowed to be killed for 'honor' by just wanting to live a normal life.
The media paints the coverings as freeing, but in reality the majority of those women are oppressed. Which is why I cannot believe that feminist organizations don't rally against their treatment
Seems eerily similar.
The difference is that nobody dresses like Christian puritans anymore because that's ancient history. Muslims are stuck in the middle ages.
@John_Doesnt it’s really not that ancient at all. Puritan values still pervade American society. Besides why do westerners get to do it but others can’t?
nobody dresses like that in America
I don't think anybody in Europe does either, at least not around where I am
@CocoBatFloof what about traditional Dutch clothing? 
Nobody wears that anymore either
Everyone has traditional clothing, it was practical then, or had to do with religious reasons, that stuff changes
The only times people wear it is for tradition fairs and such
Same with Americans, they only dress like pilgrims and stuff for fairs
Well okay fine but all your cultures did at one point. Kind of hypocritical I think to blame another culture for doing something yours did previously is all I’m saying.
With the war on terrorism I think most Americans think terrorist when they see anything that reminds the of the middle east yes it sucks but its not going to change anytime soon I really don't think it has so much to do with covering the body as scared they're a terrorist
I think it is only “Catholics” who have “nuns” and who where some sort of hat as part of a uniform which has evolved over the centuries. Frankly, aside from television, I have never seen a nun wear any head dress. Protestant Christianity doesn’t have nuns.
Finally, Ido not think it is a scarf wrap that people have problems with, it’s burkas.
The issue is whether or not it's done through legitimate choice
Can't agree more 👌🏻
The issue is more that they will be punished for not covering in some countries like Saudi Arabia etc.
So it is a violation of human rights.
So just bcs it happened in Saudi and some countries, it should be banned in general around the world? I'm not even sure 🤔
Yes. It's a culture thing.
It's only banned in countries which have an equally oppressive society.
For example, in Australia (where I live) it is not banned not enforced. Which is how it should be. The choice to wear it or not wear it are equal value choices.
The only place you can't wear the full covering (the one which only shows the eyes and sometimes not even) is in banks for logical security reasons.
I do agree, it is a violation to force a woman what should and what should not be wore. I think its a more culture problem, society is sick tho- 🤡
Its not that they choose to, its that in a lot of countries they have no choice in the matter. I personally could care less what a Muslim woman wears, unless she is forced to wear something. same thing with women in general i dont care what they choose to wear, unless there is some kind of force involved.
can't vote by the way because all of your answers are extremely biased and dont apply to my response.
I give you a reality check. Hypocrite Muslim women also exist. during university the ones who used to cover themselves as innocent girls were the first to thriw it away for their careers and attention from male company. Rest I leave to your imagination what sort of things those women do compared to so called sinful women
I think the issue is for women for whom it was not a choice. Many women are forced to cover, and if they don't, it can be as bad as death. In Canada a father strangled his daughter to death for not wearing hijab. This is a common story.
I'm sorry it happened in Canada. I live in a thank God muslim country where honor-killing isn't common omgeez that's disgusting 😑 I don't even remember if it ever happened yeah bcs it doesn't here, period. 👽
I feel bad for women in muslim countries, and when muslim women from muslim countries tell me it isn't bad it's hard to take them seriously because they are brainwashed and don't know the alternatives. Sam Harris has an AMAZING podcast with an ex muslim woman that literally brought me to tears. If you are interested I can send it.
Idc if they do or don't, I probably prefer most women didn't in the right circumstances. Its about them being able to choose to cover up or not to that bothers me because if I was told to do something I'd probably do the opposite just as a fuck you consequence be damned.
Can't speak for whatever the norm is in other countries, but I personally love wavy hair hanging down, a flannel shirt and black jeans. Eyeglasses are a nice bonus.
I don't if this would be popular or acceptable in majority Muslim countries with their girls.
But American girls, you know what I'd like to see y'all wearing! Just my personal taste.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with a woman covering up her body whether it is because of faith or by choice to do so. She has that right. My thing is women wearing to much makeup, but that is just me... Beautiful women are beautiful not because of what thy wear or don't wear, they are beautiful because they are beautiful within...
Look, if you live in a western country, and you legitimately /choose/ to wear whatever, go for it, nobody is going to object.
The only thing people object to is when Muslim women claim it's a choice, when we can clearly tell that they have familial/native cultural pressures telling them otherwise.
So you mean its a culture problem (families/native) and not a religion problem right? Does the nuns claim it's a choice too? Cuz if its a religion problem it means that no women do head covering for their own faith bcs that don't exist, for real some do wear it bcs of faith, I don't see why muslim women covering their heads and nuns covering their heads based on modesty would be a problem. Opression happen in many things, not only one religion, or one aspect.
Culture and religious problem.
I don't know if nuns claim it's a choice or not, but if they do and they would be ostracised for doing so, then the same points apply equally to nuns. The difference is nuns aren't so vocal. And everywhere.
Bcs nuns wearing head covering aren't an issue for most people, that's why I'm pointing out. I don't think religions are problems but anyway, women should have the chance to wear and not wearing what they want, that's all the point.
Nobody said otherwise. I'm on the side of people having a choice.
Its a religion matter or very old times in middle east its to be a culture
I know head covering mostly are religion matter, but society make it looks sickening like forcing people wether to wear it or not- 🤷🏻♀️
Unfortinately some families force to head coverung their daughters. Its sad
It's true. Actually not just based on dresses, some society do force their believers to imply it, and I don't think it's right. And I'm pointing this to all religions. People have to know that religion is "do willingly by heart", not "forced".
You are right but all religions have some procedures. Also islam. but covering head is controversial in islam. Most probably it a arabic tradition. And its transfered arabic tradition to islam
`i asked a Muslem Woman about that, she explained that, in the Keran, they explain it that woman should be covered from head to foot; it is a sign of humility. Shamelessness and deduction to Alha.
Said a clown to another clown- I believe this is a lie. ✊🏻✊🏼✊🏽✊🏾✊🏿
You should add an option F for other. The issue is with the religion not them covering up. If you took away all the slaughtering and murder that happens and they acted as civil as the rest I think most wouldn't give a damn
Ex oppressed Muslim here, they're quick to assume that they've been coerced into covering up. Some do, some don't. Due to the countless of occurrences it has become somewhat of a stereotype.
Because they think making your daughter wear hijab is operation but not vaccinating your kids is 'medical freedom'. Expect nothing better from these clowns.
You're comparing average muslim women to nuns? It's all fine and dandy to those muslim women who can choose to wear a hijab or not. Many are not allowed to choose for themselves.
Nuns are not the norm in western society, nor are girls and women in general expected to dress like one.
Also, consider the reasons for wearing a hijab. It's because women who don't wear it are not respected and seen as women of lower morality. It's all about repressing women.
You can accept one but can't accept the others? Thank you for proving that- and as a muslim hijabi myself, I would say you're wrong, majority of us do wear it by free-will, and you don't speak for me and what I chose. Idc if nuns are not the norm in western society, it's none of my business, actually I don't even care what women want and don't wanna wear lmfao. My point is why can't you guys just accept us as you accept the others, that's all.
So, now you're speaking for my behalf? Wow, *clap* excuse you, I don't wear it by force, I wear it bcs I love my God and bcs of my faith- and we don't see men as superiors, we're all equals, men and women. Don't threw something you don't even know from anti-islam. com and act like it's the main truth-
I’m Christian and I get shamed for not dressing in revealing outfits. I think it’s the culture we live in. It’s seen as either strange or as a sign that the woman hates her body.
Because Western Culture is weird. It is weird when it scold women for showing too much skin. It is weird when it claims women are dressing too conservatively.
It is just plain weird.
Well in the US and pre 911 there never was an issue with the way muslim women chose to cover their body. However post 911 and after the conflicts expanded around the globe many suicide attempts were carried out either with women or men posing as women hiding the bomb device under their garments.
And that garments is? Hijab/head-covering isn't it? If someone want to bomb something, even if they wear wedding gown or dresses or whatever they still can do that, luggage, etc. by the way till now 911 causes still remain theories, and I won't jump into conclusions. 🤨
Because some people are "busybodies" who don't have a job or life.
The problem is that it is quite often NOT a free choice. Either through social pressure by family and muslim community members or actual physical force.
Because covering hair in this century is stupid and oppressing. Just like the all religions. What were women doing in pre historic cave eras? They had no chance to purchase scarves on the internet. Only thinking about this is enough for the understand this.
It's true and I don't know about prehistoric much but I wonder why you are wearing clothes either 🤔 isn't it stupid and opressing? You're absolutely right!!! How can you be sooo intelligent omgeezzz 👌🏻
I wear clothes that are conveniant for the weather. And women don’t need more than i wear. This way It’s logical and not oppressing at all.
So your definition of not opressed and logic are more to "they have to wear what I wear" than "they can wear what they want"?
They have to? No, i don’t force them to anything but it’s mu reaction and my opinion is my opinion the same when i saw something stupid and oppressing.
Take a stand, mister- 🤡
My girlfriend is Southeast Asian Muslim she wear micro bikini, being topless on beach and poolside, wear revealing outfit publicly also pray give times, in public you can't feel she is a Muslim female, micro skirt, shorts, cropped tank top and tube.
Where in the world is this a big issue? I've never even heard about it. Where I'm from, you can do what you want and people mostly don't give a fuck unless it affects them.
i think the problem is tha religion tells you that you should be ahsamed for your body. i think it's perfectly fine to disagree with that.
Sound like an opinion more than a fact indeed-
did you know that the stereotypical weird fetishes of the japanese people, like tentacle porn and their weird censorship laws are a direct consequence of christian missionaries bringing the idea of "shame" for nudity and sex? pornography was a normal thing to own as a "luck charm" in those times and working naked in the field and publicly bathing naked with children and strangers was completely normal.
religion fucks people up. that's a fact.
@Red_Dragon you're right. they wear that due to their families otherwise shunning them. it has nothing to do with their religion at all.
Not all people wear it for the sake of human, some also do believe in faith and wear it for modesty- 🤷🏻♀️
so would you say cristian priests wear the white collar thing for "style"?
Did I mention about style anywhere?🤔 It's cool tho- I don't know what white collar are you talking about, but if he wears it either bcs of his chosen style or faith, it's none of my business. But if he wore that bcs of society, that's fucked up. Anyway, leave him alone, let him wear what he wants duhhh- 😑
i didn't speak about a particular person here :) i'm just saying that certain clothing is very distinct religious. and i don't personally agree with that. that's all i'm saying. i have no issue with modesty. though i do think modesty is very often a sign of insecurity.
Modesty is a sign of insecurity? Are you an atheist? Sound like it, but okay it's your opinion tho- thanks for the feedback, appreciated. 👌🏻
didn't you previously say that it doesn't have to do with religion? :D so why does it now matter if i'm an atheist?
and yes, i happen to be one :) you got it right.
Yes, bcs you talked about "modesty is a sign of insecurity" like you're lacking of believing in something. Not bcs of the dresses. Modesty is more to faith about religion by implying it, how people complaining about how someone should dress is more to society perspectives 🤷🏻♀️. Religion is free to follow or nah- not all religious people where head covering. 👌🏻
ah i just realized that i have mixed up another conversation i had on gag with this one. i thought i had said something here that i in fact did only say in the other question.
so the reason i disagree with religiously inspired clothing, is that i think that religious thinking throws around a lot of unfair shame that leads to insecurity in people, consequently creating a desire in them to dress more "modestly", which i think is not good.
and i think even if you're not religious at all, modesty is still one of 2 things: 1: being annoyed of being obejctified and a consequence of peoples ignorance of who you are or 2: trying to hide who you are, cause you fear that you might not be adequate. both of those things are signs of insecurity. 1 partains to your charater and 2 to your physical appearance.
Hey everybody instead of offering half baked opinions, how about doing some reading and learn about their ways their religion have some facts related to why they wear what they do. Hey who knows we just might learn something!
I guess I wonder if you really want to cover yourselves. It’s a religious thing for women to be blamed for men’s lust. It’s just weird when women place themselves unequally to men in otherwise free countries.
Muslim clothes are traditional dress that may not belong in the country of non-muslims. if its decided like that muslims must not wear these clothes nor call to prayer
Because those women are brainwashed into thinking they're free. I always go anon with Muslims because they get butthurt easily and block when anyone attacks their sexist religion.
Let me ask you a question first why did Muhammad refuse to allow his followers to engage in monasticism. Answer that question and I will answer yours.
For females to cover vast amounts of their bodies, to me, shows a great amount of conservative modesty, which should be applauded
Because it's seen more as an imposition than a right.
It deviates from that to which most people are accustomed
Women should only cover their body if they're fat. Otherwise they should be trying to flaunt their tits and ass.
Open YouTube and search about
Thaker Nike talking about hijab
You will find the answer
If there is nothing wrong with women half naked on street and naked on social media. Ghere is definitely nothing wrong with someone who dresses modesty. Let satan followers burn with jealously.
none of the above, it's women being dictated about what to do because men are too weak.
Because it reflects values alien to the culture we live in. That makes it weird and off putting.
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