Children throughout millennia screaming and crying out in fear and terror as they are abused, tortured, murdered, mutilated and nothing has ever happened.
a child, woman, man, living in abject terror for years with an abuser, locked up and tortured daily, screaming in a dark room, all alone, and no matter their religion, crying out to their God to save them, but silence.
For me the most compelling argument is the purpose and reason.
let’s say they did the entire 7 days thing and then pretty much left.
No matter what you do, God will not save you, it’s been proven.
go back to any of the genocides throughout history, the serial killers, the cannibals, nothing.
literally the most serious reason where you would expect them to step in and save someone, nothing, that 9 year old girl caught by the serial killer dies alone and in abject terror calling out to god to save her, as she’s been taught this is what happens.
then wait, he is there as Mrs Smith with her kidney infection, she prayed, and her prays were answered and no kidney infection….
There is stronger evidence that Earth is actually Hell than of God existing.
Survivor's bias plays a part in this. People who are fortunate to be born in the right place and not have to suffer the random horrors that can afflict most people on the planet can say "see, God is real, look at me!". The ones who don't survive are not around to say "no he ain't, look at me!".
I have no argument I do believe in God and God did not let evil happen God gave everybody the gift of choice when we were born it's more powerful word Than Love every breath every step we take we make a choice we choose who we want to be by the things we say into when we as a people choose the wrong choice evil things happen it was everything evil that we don't like it's up to us to stop it not up to him he wants to see who the fuck we are what are you made of what did what do you believe in when evil is around you are you going to stop it can I let the guy just stopped and said to you somehow it was created around you or around me it's up to us to stop it it's not his job to bail us out now I do and just because somebody thinks that got you just don't show up snap his fingers and take care of business you're wrong who knows that he doesn't divert things to take a different that the Wiz people are so fucking stupid sometimes dancing right in front of her face we walk right over the top of it look at our government look at the manipulation did they do they are taking this down the wrong path because CDC has bought their way through everything so we the people slowly get killed off the rich the very smart Richie Rich people they're dumber than fucking locks will end up killing themselves ride along with all of us poor people and the meek shall inherit the earth there is a bigger plan that we both would ever even think of but when something happens on this Earth and people are the cause of it it was a choice that was made we the people have to deal with it or change it not God
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I lost IQ points reading all of the replies. No one could really answer your question, but that didn't stop them from replying. The simple fact is... none of us know one way or the other. I'm not religious, but I absolutely believe in a higher power. You can call that higher power what you want, but that doesn't change anything. What created the universe and all the planets? The big bang? If so, then who created the big bang?
411 opinions shared on Religion & Spirituality topic.
This quote sums it up:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus
This plus an entire host of reasons I left Christianity.
@Hispanic-Cool-Guy - I think that's actually pretty good conditional reasoning. I think it questions what we think we know about a God. Like how we define one.
And the fact that life & how we describe a God don't morally align, maybe even if the God did exist, we shouldn't want to worship it. I know I wouldn't worship anything that willingly caused or was able to prevent suffering but didn't.
• If God is beyond human reasoning, then why do humans constantly apply their reasoning to the God? And they do that by specifying the qualities of the God.
• I don't agree that humans are inherently evil. I just believe that we're all inherently capable of malevolence. A baby isn't capable of premeditation. But it will be.
• Pointing out contradictory elements in something isn't a way of telling the thing what to do.
@Sonorous: Humans are indeed inherently evil. Just the fact you walk around God's territory (earth) and breathe His oxygen, enjoy His sunshine yet decide to ignore God and be unthankful shows what kind of heart and mind you have.
Besides, the fact all the evil thoughts that have ran through your mind shows what's in your heart.
I'm not gonna reply to this with an argument or my reasoning in the form of a question because... logic & reason has left the chat.
But I will say that... After reading your opinions of humans... It reminds me that it's not a very uncommon thing for us to reflect our parents/creators... 😂
@Hispanic-Cool-Guy - I have mentioned before in other posts that I wasn't always an atheist. The journey I took in writing a book that would explain why God was real and verifiable brought me to so many dead-ends with my belief that I just couldn't sustain them.
The Epicurus quote is just one of very many reasons I don't believe in any god.
I think humans are ego centric dumbasses who think life revolves around them. The universe is MASSIVE. So massive that some parts of the universe are completely unobservable, because light hasn't reached the place yet for us to see.
And by the time light does reach those places, our solar system would be dead because of our sun's lifespan ending. Put that into perspective for a second. This is LIGHT we are talking about. It's physically impossible for us to fully experience and grasp the vastness of this world.
We are so so so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. A grain of sand has more significance in the desert than us in the universe.
And lets say the creator does exist, to think that the creator of this mind numbingly huge, complex and intricate world gives two shits about me sleeping with another man, me eating pork, me doing literally anything is weird. To think the almighty creator just exists for us to worship so we can go to heaven and live happily ever after sounds like the most narrowest and selfish ideas about a literal all knowing all powerful GOD.
=============== The question is: have I learned anything about life? Only that... only that human beings are divided into mind and body. The mind embraces all the nobler aspirations, like poetry and philosophy, but the body has all the fun.
The important thing, I think, is not to be bitter. You know, if it turns out that there IS a God, I don't think that He's evil. I think that the worst you can say about Him is that, basically, He's an underachiever.
After all, you know, there are worse things in life than death. I mean, if you've ever spent an evening with an insurance salesman, you know exactly what I mean.
The key here, I think, is to... to not think of death as an end, but think of it more as a very effective way of cutting down on your expenses.
Regarding love, heh, you know, what can you say? It's not the quantity of your sexual relations that count. It's the quality. On the other hand, if the quantity drops below once every eight months, I would definitely look into it.
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I don't need arguments for God's non-existence. There are an unlimited number of things that can't be proven to not exist, like Bertrand Russell's teapot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot ). So far I've seen no convincing evidence for God's existence. Old books are just words someone made up. I need something observable that cannot be explained without God. Even if I agree that there is a God, so what? What can I do with that? The one thing we do know is that prayer and other religious practices work exactly as well as doing nothing at all. In countries where people enjoy freedom of conscience, believers are no better off than non-believers.
I don't think it's possible to prove a negative. I will say though that most Christian philosophers take the problem of evil seriously. In fact, they take it so seriously that there even exists a term for arguments that seek to counteract them; "theodicies". So I don't think it's fair of you to ask a question and then dismiss the most well-known and serious objections to it with a condescending emoji.
As for my answer, all I can say is that I'm ignostic. I don't believe that the idea of who or what a God is firmly settled. If a Christian and a Pagan ask me if I believe in a creative deity and then start bickering among themselves over what it means, I'm just going to be on my merry way.
There's no argument to prove God does not exist. And if you say science, I gotta say science can neither prove nor disprove his existence.
Through logic you can easily prove his existence. First through cosmological argument, you prove the existence of a first cause and later on, with further arguments founded on the conclusion you get from the cosmological argument, you can easily prove his attributes, that he's needless, omnipotent, omniscient, just and etc.
God letting evil happen is not really an argument to disprove his existence. It's just an argument to challenge his justice. But if you go step by step from the cosmological argument to arguments for proving his attributes, it's easy to clear the fog for people and prove them that the evil things that are happening in the world does not contradict the fact that he is just and caring.
• No humanly proclaimed God has been observed to be scientifically studied.
• Things that exist can usually be observed and studied using tools & our human senses.
Conclusion: We can't definitively say that God doesn't exist, because the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And it's like that with everything. However, since we can't observe or study a God's existence, we can conclude that the God's existence or lack thereof really doesn't & shouldn't matter to us since it will remain speculation due to lack of valid grounds for a pro-God argument towards the existence of God.
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You need to be able to present falsifiable evidence for god before you can construct an argument against it.
So I don't have an argument for god not existing because I don't need one as the burden of proof lies with the side making the positive claim which in this case is theists.
So far, a valid and logically sound argument which shows god does exist hasn't been made. No credible and reliable evidence has ever been presented in favour of god. Until that has been done, I need no case against it.
Many religions are actually in a way "copied" from some other so called religions which raises a valid concern in existence of thier deistic entities and validation of data supporting their beliefs. It's still really hard to prove that god doesn't exist but its even harder to prove his/hers existence.
Religion introduced us to God, so It's possible it made up one as well. All this is philosophical aspect of argument tho cuz of lack of valid proofs by both sides.
I have thousands of reasons, the most compelling of which depends on what *you* think is God, and the fact that every single person has a different interpretation of what and who God is, is an argument against God in itself, but anyway, the answer is that there is no such thing as free will. No free will, no God.
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Because religion and all it's dogma are man-made tools created long ago and meant too control ignorant and gullible people through fear and intimidation which still continues to this day and age. Any one who has not drank the dogma Kool-Aid knows the supreme power in the universe is nature. Or at least The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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i won't argue with a non believer i don't see the point. if however a disbeliever asks me question i try to show whats written. seldom have i ever talked with a disbeliever who's spent any time reading the Bible.
Figurative language my dear. I'm saying you can clearly see God's power and glory in creation unless you just desire to be delusional and lie to yourself.
I might prefer to lie to myself. I respect god whoever and wherever he is though. But my priority is being a good person, doing good, thinking good, having good perspectives. That should be enough, For the rest. idc
The idea that “we see his fingerprints in everything” requires very selective vision. God exists because we subjectively think a sunset is pretty? children starve. People live a short life before dying of disease or heart failure if they don’t reach the paltry age of 80. 99.99999999999 percent of the universe is uninhabitable. you were one of the lucky few born into a place of privilege and don’t have to fend off poverty, disease, and starvation. Lucy you.
because the simple way to go here would be... whichever argument you have to deny, dismiss or discredit all other 9,,999 gods except for yours... that same argument... they could use it to say that yours is the one does not exist...
so if I were to "argue" with you about these things (which I won't) that would be "the best"
Evolution can and has been proven. God has not. The christian bible (I only mention this because it's the only one I've really studied) contradict itself a million times over.
“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30
“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18
“… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26
“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19
“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20
“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5
“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30
“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18
Jacob is talking about the Son of God Jesus Christ as Jesus always existed and he is physical image of God.
No one has seen God The Father nor His image which is Spirit.
Judges 1:14-19
Now the children of the Kenite, Moses’ father-in-law, went up from the City of Palms with the children of Judah into the Wilderness of Judah, which lies in the South near Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
And Judah went with his brother Simeon, and they attacked the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it.
So the name of the city was called Hormah. Also Judah took Gaza with its territory, Ashkelon with its territory, and Ekron with its territory. So the LORD was with Judah.
And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.
*Context matters. Plucking out scriptures like you are doing distorts what it actually is saying.
And Judah went with his brother Simeon, and they attacked the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it.
So the name of the city was called Hormah.
Also Judah took Gaza with its territory, Ashkelon with its territory, and Ekron with its territory. So the LORD was with Judah.
*God helped the soliders only to a certain limit to defeat their enemies and conquer only a certain amount of land at least til that point, not everything they wanted, in this case the lowlands as well.
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20
“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5
A son or daughter shouldn't be punished because their father is a murderer, rapist or thief, however again you ignored the context.
In the context it clearly says to those who hate Him (God) God will punish the sins of fathers unto the 3rd and 4th generations; it's basically saying one generation after another is following in the same sins as their forefathers therfore God is visiting them with punishment.
Riddle me this though. I assume you believe the great flood actually happened? Noahs ark and what not. They saved all the land animals yes? What about all the sea creatures? How did they survive? After all the flood was so great that it covered the entire earth, oceans running into rivers and lakes, they all become one, right? So all the fresh water fish and critters would have died from the salt water, or all the salt water fish and critters would have died from the lack of salt considering the sheer amount of rain it would take to flood that much the salt content would not be enough for them to survive. So how did they survive? 🧐 We will ignore the fact it's physically impossible to fit a pair of every single land animal on a boat and have the boat stay afloat.
You are assuming God who is all powerful couldn't keep some water creatures alive because salt water mixed in with fresh water? Lol
Anyways, in my opinion evolution that changed earth and its structure and animals from eating herbs as God originally created them all to be then some became carnivores took place sometime after the flood.
I don't believe sea water had salt in it when God originally created the sea and even it it did God is all powerful where He can keep whatever creatures alive in any conditions.
The earth was only about 1000 years old (very young) when the flood took place.
And to your last point. At most there was probably maybe to 200 to 300 land animals on the ark or less. I'm sure God closed up their bowles and stomach and shut their thirst as Noah and the animals where stuck in the ark for a whole year.
No one can survive living among animal dung for a whole year. It's disgusting too.
So god is all powerful and can do anything. Yet he won’t. He leaves it up to yahoos and a thousands year old book to prove himself. And he loves us but wants us to burn in hell for not loving him back in a strictly Christian way. We are asked to believe that god made animals walk from the Arctic to a desert just to get on a boat. (How big was that boat again?) But then got lazy and used magic on the sea creatures
And all that other magic about god closing up bowels and stopping thirst is not in the Bible. Neither is that incredibly limited number of animals on the boat. “ALL” the animals got on the boat. All 1 trillion species. You pulled all that out of your ass. If you have to lie to defend your Bible maybe you should reconsider your beliefs. Or is bearing false witness no longer a sin?
We brought up several unavoidable flaws in the Noah's story that have never been adequately addressed we are told "god can do anything so shut up" or that he used some special magic never mentioned in the bible.
Why would you need to make invent special cases to make everything fit?
The Noah chapter simply cannot withstand scrutiny. The Bible was compiled at a time when people didn't know very much. They didn't know about Arctic regions, the actual number of species on Earth, or how life in salt water and fresh water is different. The writers didn't treat it as a piece of history but as a story (likely taken from Gilgamesh written around 2112 BCE). They didn't account for eight people feeding and cleaning and shoveling poop. Some of the animals on the boat were carnivores so did they eat the other animals? What did they eat? Was food storage factored into the 300x50x30 cubits? Did god also save fleas and tics and horrible parasites that still plague mankind?
And if we can question Noah's story, just one story in the Bible, how can we accept the rest of the Bible that is supposed to be a complete, accurate, word of god, where everything in it is true. So if we can rip apart one story how can anything else be reliable?
Problems with Noah's Arc: - Where is there enough wood in the Middle East to build a ship that big? (3.1 million board feet) - How did Noah and his 3 sons build a giant ship when the Egyptians needed an army of slaves to build the pyramids? - How just 8 people care for all the animals? - Why did a loving, caring god kill all but 2 of every living creature? Were those EVIL creatures? - How did Noah decide which two of each animals got in? - When killing off every other family, didn't God kill off a bunch of unborn babies? - Where did Noah's Arc go? No one ever found it. - Why does the story of Noah closely resemble the story of Gilgamesh? - Why doesn't every other civilization alive during the flood have a record of it happening? - Were dinosaurs also on the Arc? We know they existed because we have their bones - What did the meat eaters eat if not other animals? A single lion eats 10 pounds of meat a day. That's 7300 lbs of meat over a year, just for the two lions. It would take a herd of cattle to feed every meat eater for a year. - What did the plant eaters eat? - Where was food stored? - How did the food stay fresh for a year? - Where did all the animal poop and pee go? - Did Noah's family get diseases from the huge piles of poop building up? ...
... - How did Noah collect the tens-of-millions of insect species that don't live anywhere near each other? - Why did Noah decide to bring along fleas, ticks, mosquitos, lice, intestinal worms, and thousands of other horrible parasites? - How did the insects that last only a few weeks survive for a year? - Who inspected the maleness/femaleness of each insect? - How did Noah get the penguins of Antarctica to come to the Middle East? - How did Noah get the koalas of Australia to come to the Middle East? - Did Noah get bison, polar bears, grizzly's, 3-toad sloths, Galapagos tortoises from Galapagos Islands or kamado dragons from New Zealand? - After the flood, how did the animals get back Antarctica, or Australia, North American, New Zealand, Eastern Russia, or wherever? - How did Noah put back the creatures that only live on remote islands like the Galapagos tortoises? - What about walruses and sea turtles that can't be left if the ocean or left on a boat for a year? - How did Noah get all the animals onto the Arc that quickly? - What happened to all the plants? Did plants make it onto the Arc too? - Did Noah plant all the plants after the flood, plants in every corner of the earth? - What did the anteaters eat? - What did koalas eat? - What did the termites eat? - How is it possible to have just one male and one female termite? Or ant? or bee? - Which animals had lice? - Which of Noah's family brought Gonorrhea? Because that is still around so someone had to bring it. - How did ants survive given they can only survive in large groups? - How is it that we see so much human diversity if we all started with Noah's family? - Why wasn't the ocean's ecosystem damaged by so much fresh water? - How did rainbows not exist before the flood, was there no rain or sun before that? - Where did all the water go after the flood?
I love all of this though I will say, komodo dragons are not from New Zealand. However, kiwis and all the other native wildlife of NZ including hundreds of birds and insects and a species of bat... And the moa even though they are extinct now they wouldn't have been then... There's also a bird type of eagle I believe that was big enough to pick up a Moa... So many questions not enough answers. 😂
I know that Bible defenders have changed their minds about evolution just to create this one special case for the arc before they closed the book again. The claim is that a lion couple left the arc and then their offspring became house cats, panthers, leopards, jaguars, snow leopards, tigers, and cheetahs. And a pair of brown bears became grizzlies, polar bears, black bears, pandas, koalas, and sun bears. Then horses became giraffes, donkeys and oxen. And apes became lemurs, chimps, neanderthals, and humans (oh wait a minute!). All in this in the space of 1000 years. This isn't how evolution works and it has been proven.
How did three sons create a sea-faring marvel of modern engineering of that magnitude out of wood that didn't fall apart? Because of god.
How did Noah manage to put all those creatures back to every corner of the globe? Because of god.
Why didn't god build the boat for Noah? *crickets*
Why did god need a boat anyway? *crickets*
How come the Chinese didn't know their ancestors came from Noah in their thousands of years of writing?
I bulletpointed a pile of issues with the Noah story and all you can say is “god is powerful enough to do it.” You need to create so many special twists and turns to make the story fit into reality and still it fails. I suppose you need to do that because if you don’t everything you invested in falls apart. You can’t possibly honestly face these questions without suffering an existential identity crisis. It’s really sad. I feel so bad for you.
He was the one that caused it to kill off a bunch of violent and wicked devils on the earth.
Genesis 6:5-8:
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Genesis 6:11-12 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
I was taught that Noah’s flood only happened regionally in the Middle East so we didn’t have to deal with the reality of fitting every species into the boat. But I was also taught I could just whitewash everything with “god would work it out”. Since I already believed god could do anything I didn’t need to question it. When I started to doubt things my mind would just shut off so I wouldn’t have to face it. I was also in a congregation where the pastor believed In Darwinism and could explain the Bible in a way that made sense scientifically. And many in the congregation were educated. We thought WE had it right and all the other Christians had it wrong. But when I wanted to go further and start my own studies I ran into many brick walls. The more I learned about reality the less I could sustain my faith in the Bible. I try to remember what it was like being so sure in my -false- beliefs and how I could sustain them for so long. I feel like I must have been a different person so willing to accept the Bible on faith while being a sceptic with everything else. But in the end the only one who could break me out of that spell was me. My mom taught me when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
@BlacklightShade: The whole earth was one whole continent at that point. Modern science would say I'm wrong but it was til Pangaea happened and God caused other continents to develop.
Yes, we understand that Pangea was a thing. There was geological evidence that it existed 175 million years ago. This doesn't work a young Earth creationist. Are you a young Earth creationist @Hispanic-Cool-Guy or do you believe the age of the Earth is what science claims it is?
It's impossible to engage with someone so divorced from reality. Doesn't matter what we say this guy is going to believe his doctrine till the bitter end.
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