It would necessarily need to be. Either an individuals god claim influences the world in tangible, detectable, measurable ways... or it could never be asserted as real because the believer would have to concede they had no way of... somehow knowing this thing apparently existed.
Like if I said I believed in my God X - but it doesn't influence the world in any tangible way... well how could I therefore be in a position to have the belief? My god would be indistinguishable from it not existing.
That aside, it's very telling that prior to the invention of cameras and all manner of measuring tools, that miracles and direct god-interventions apparently happened all the time, and only now that we have such tools they don't occur anywhere.
Well I guess it all depends on who you think God is and how he works. But it is a fact there there are forces in this world that science and nature can not fully explain. So it that the hand of god playing his part in this world? There will always be this aspect of the unknown when comes to God so to some degree the unknown comes down to what you choose to believe i. e. faith. And there is plenty of evidence and prove of faith in the this world.
I say yes there is prove of God, but how to do you prove what can't be proven? To many God is a mater of faith... so as long as people have that faith in God then he does exist as long as people are out there living their lives in accordance to the teachings... and there is plenty of prove of that happening in the world today. So to that extent yes it can not only can be proven it has been.
Yes, I claim to know what you perceive to be unknowable.
I absolutely know that God exists, and his name is Yahweh, and the Ten Commandments are the gist of His law, but they may be derivable from the silver rule and golden rule. And no, rebuking a sinner doesn't violate either of those rules..
Do I believe in the Book of Genesis? No.
Do I believe in most of Exodus? No, but the ten commandments are derivable.
Leviticus? Yes. It's verified by medical science.
Deuteronomy? Yes
Numbers? I suppose so, but it hardly ever read it, but it does say "God is no a man" so remember that.
You confuse me, you said you have faith, but don't have faith in the validity of Genesis, Exodus Deuteronomy? That makes no sense. I myself had faith in those, then later on, decades later on saw the proof in it. Maybe you simply haven't seen it yet, but should of course have faith that if one part of the Torah, tanakh and or King James Bible is accurate, then the rest must be also.
I believe God might choose to hide Himself just enough to give people a choice about whether or not to believe him, I have constant proof that God is real but when I first became a Christian my religion was a guessing game because I was not sure.
Opinion
30Opinion
Of course. All it would take is any verifiable sign, at all, that magic exists. I suppose that wouldn't necissarily prove the existence if a god, but it would show that life does have a supernatural element, which from there at least allows for the real possibility of some entity in charge of it. Sadly it wouldn't have any impact on determining which, if any, of the religions guessed correctly about the nature of that god, but it's moot anyway as there is no verifiable sign of magic. Even the existence of religion doesn't require a magical explanation - it could just be that people are afraid of death.
Of course it could, were it real.
So far there is no evidence what so ever, so currently there is no reason what so ever to believe in God.
What that means is that any and all current claims to have any knowledge of such a being are nothing more than some bullshit some asshole told you and should be treated as such.
If you are not doing this then you should also not concern yourself with proofs because these things have no meaning to you and wouldn't know it even if you saw it.
Nope. It can't be proven that it doesn't exist, either.
If an omnipotent god wanted to prove its existence, it could do so anytime it wanted, instead of leaving cryptic hints in an ancient, man-made book that only "the enlightened" find believable.
So either this god doesn't exist, or it doesn't want people to know. And if it punishes people in the afterlife for not knowing, it's a sadistic demon.
God is not a hypothesis to be proven or disproven.
Also, "existence" is the wrong word to use, as it implies "something with a beginning and thus an end" neither of which God can have.
As for the premise : Deniers will deny, regardless of what is placed before them - it's why they are classed as deniers and shunned.
if god exists, his existence can be proven. if he doesn't, it can't. plus if he doesn't exist, you can not proof that, cause you can generally not proof the negative of something, if you have no information as to where or how to look for that something to beghin with... so yeah. that's why assuming there is a god BEFORE it was proven is and always was stupid.
I'd be happy if you also check out the link. I guess you posted your opinion in one of my posts, I guess part 1.
yeah i did and you didn't add anything new in part 2. cause it just continues to build on that non existent foundation with the false premise in it that i critiqued in the first part. you're just demonstrating in your option 2 in your second part that you can't grasp the concept of infinity. which i don't blame you for. human brains aren't built to grasp that concept. cause for all we experience, everyhting is finite and has some beginning and some end. however as i stated in the first part: there is something that "for all we know" was always there. and that's everything there is. and when i say "everything there is" i mean the matter that makes up everything. matter is never destroyed. just rearranged.
I do also believe that there is something that has always been there. But I don't consider that being matter. You know why? Because we need to know what it really means to have been always there. When we say something has always been there, it means it never came into existence. That means, it does not have a cause at all. And we know that matter has a cause obviously. Why?
This is the definition of matter:
"physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit; (in physics) that which occupies space and possesses rest mass, especially as distinct from energy."
Matter is something that occupies space, so it has volume, thus having dimensions and size. It also has mass. So matter can be divided into its individual parts, and anything that has individual parts and a particular size and mass, can be divided and is limited, and anything that can be devided into individual parts has a cause, its individual parts are the cause of its existence, its tiny bits are the cause of its existence. For example look at your body. Your body has not always been there, why? Because it has a cause. Your body is made up of individual parts. Your body exists, because your hand exists, because your feet exist. Because your individual cells exist.
About the concept of infinity, I'd be happy if you submit your opinion about it in the post related to part 2. I want to have all the responses and questions in one place. 😉
well that's something i often see christians do. like science figures some shit out that we never knew how it worked. and then christians come and say "yeah that's what we meant when we said god all along" xD so i feel like when we figure out how matter really works (which we haven't yet), christians will just come and do that again. like they did with the "god particle" xD
ever heard of the god fo the gaps? if no, that's something to google up.
so as to your concerns with matter, i undersand that. think about a giant container that is almost at 100% vacuum but has a tiny bit of gas in it. so like now imagine how much you can compress this container. so you can fit the particles of gas in a much smaller container. and at some point something happens to that gas. it turns liquid, occupying a tiny fraction of the space it originally occupied.
now if you think like that on the scale of a universe, look at how much "nothing" there is in between all the things we can see. think about how much nothing is again in between the the nuclius of an tom and it's electrons. like there's so much nothing, if you eliminate that by compression, you can fit everything that we can see in a quite tiny space on a scale of "the visible universe".
and then also consider that we don't even know what matter does at the extreme heat and pressure that existed shortly before the big bang. that's the thing we're hard at work trying to figure out.
I may have not got what you really mean. And I may be a little bit confused about how you want to say matter has always been there using that argument. 🤔😅
Can't we say what is fit into that tiny space is also composed of some other tinier bits? If that's matter and has volume and mass, this is again a logical question.
We can even say space itself can be divided, so it's not nothing, you can say one third of the distance between particle A and particle B. Two thirds of that distance!! Whatever!! There' s something that you divide. Even if we accept that this is nothingness, then it is nothing to claim it has always been there. Something that has always existed, is something, not "nothing".
And, no, I haven't even talked about a "God" yet. Plus, I'm not Christian. We're now discussing how matter have always been there, and if it is possible. If I claim that the thing that has always been there is God, obviously I have to prove it, and that's the whole point of this series. And that's where we get at the end of it.
As long as we talk about matter, we know that it can be divided. That's what the definition of matter tells us!! Matter is devisible and thus has a cause, its individual parts are its cause. We may not have the tools to divide an extremely small particle in the lab, but that doesn't mean it's not made up of tinier bits. It is!! When we say an small particle, that means, it has dimensions!! And we can still divide the smallest dimensions, we can divide the smallest numbers!!!
ok then let's leave the particular religions and dieties behind. this is a good idea.
so let's look at matter a bit more. it seems like the "mass" of a given matter doesn't change ever (correct me if i'm wrong). but you probably know that the volume of matter is not a constant right? volumes of matter drastically change depending on pressure or temperature. so is there an argument to say that "in theory" infinite matter can not fit in an infinitely tiny space, as the volume of matter seems to be variable?
i'm not making the claim that "at some point there is nothing". i'm making the opposite claim. saying there's never nothing. like you say "even if we accept there' snothingness..." i say let's not do that. cause i don't see a reason why.
What do you mean by "infinitely tiny space" or "infinite matter"?
If space is infinite, then how can it be even tiny or large?
well maybe i should have made that distinction. i wasn't precise enough sorry. i sometimes forget to make the the difference between "the universe" (as in everything that exists) and "the visible universe", which is the parts of everything that we can see.
so what i'm saying is: what if this thing called "big bang" that leads to the expansion of "everything that we see" into "everything that there is". is actually a normal and common thing outside of everything that we see and that it also contacts again after some time or just expands forever.
so let's say given infinite time, infinite matter and infinite space, there doesn't have to be "a start" or "an end". i mean given that it is actually infinite, there can not logically be a start or an end.
this could of course be bullshit but i see nothing that logically contradicts this.
Again what baffles me is the idea of infinity here. How can you tie infinity to the concept of expansion (space)? How can you tie infinity to the concept of time lapse? How can you tie infinity to volume and mass?
If something expands, that means it was for example limited to point A (not infinite) and expanded further to point B (again not infinite, because it is limited to point B).
If we have time lapse, that means there is before and after. The time lapse which occurs during the expansion from point A to point B. Of course this is again not infinite.
Matter also has a specific size and mass, no matter if its volume can change, both words contraction and expansion of volume, have in them the concept of finiteness!!
Things which change, expand, increase, have size and etc. can not be infinite. Because the these words themselves have the concept of finiteness in them. Infinite being does not increase, does not decrease, does not have a size, it does not expand, it does not last!!
You realize that any distance from a to be is completely arbitrary and so to speak just a snapshot. One still picture from a tiny fraction of infinity. Just a concept. Just a frame of reference.
If mass is constant but let's say volume is infinitely variable, that means that "everything we see" could also fit in an infinitely tiny but infinitely massive space. Black holes are such massive, yet tiny spaces. And we don't really understand how those work yet.
I mean a to b. That's a finite measure. Infinity can't be represented with that.
Aliens or God. Who will step forward first? I’m betting neither. We aren’t worth it. I have this theory we’re just a child gods half finished science project, covered by a tarp, in a garden shed, next to the the john deer tractor mower.
By personal revelation. With prayer, scripture study. Having your own relationship with God. Although peers experiences can be uplifting, a spiritual relationship has to be proven spiritually and for oneself. It takes time, commitment and trust. Is it okay not to understand or know everything to enjoy thos journey.
I invite you to learn more at this address:
If a god doesn't just like a poof in the existence and can make I don't know something godly then sorry no. I'm saying a god because since there are an estimated 10,000 distinct religions worldwide I am saying that might be multiple or one or something since I don't know and nobody knows it's better to assume there might be more than one or none to me. Since I’m an atheist I would take that kind of proof because it makes also logical sense.
About as well as proving the existence of Elvis Presley and Bruce Lee being alive and well and residing on the moon!
Which God exactly?
there are a shit load of them.
My God can described in two words, "absolute existence".
Which one is he though.
As I said there are shit loads of them
You really need to name him, a load of the others actually have decent names
If someone where to be dead for a good amount of time and randomly comes back, then we might get the truth. However, there are tons of near death experience stories that are all unique and different so I'd say that God's existence will remain obscure.
No. That's why it's called faith: "a strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."
I'd be happy if you also check out the link. 😉
No. The whole point of religion is to have faith. Because there is no proof.
I'd be happy if you also check out the link. 😉
Faith: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
@Wade12345 just the definition on the internet bud. Kinda more reliable than the bible.
No, you're ignorant of languistic nuances. The word "Pistis" literally has 3 meanings, and none of them agree with the notion of believing something without evidence.
It means trusting in the reliability of a fact.
As I said "blind acceptance" of a claim is foolishness, and the Bible tells you not to follow vain persons nor foolishness, and not to follow prophets nor (false) scientists until they prove they're telling the truth.
@Wade12345 if something is a fact there's no need to "believe" in it.
@Wade12345 in order to have belief in something it is often without facts or proof.
If it is a fact it's not a belief it's a cold hard fact.
believe
/bɪˈliːv/
Verb
1.
accept that (something) is true, especially without proof.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
That's a poor definition of the word "believe". Pathetic really.
Look, I KNOW there is an ALMIGHTY God because I have experienced and eye-witnessed Divine Healing in response to prayer, and I've eye-witnessed Divine Prophecy.
If you want to reject my testimony, fine, you're free to do so, but don't play stupid word games with me. It's not going to work out for you.
@Wade12345 telling you definitions of words isn't a word game. You have every right to believe what you want to believe. But you have absolutely no right to force your beliefs on others. I'll look at the facts that have been presented and you can continue being a gnostic theist. We don't have to argue about it.
@Wade12345 provide a real dictionary? What is a real dictionary to you?
believe
[ bih-leev ]SHOW IPA
See synonyms for: believe / believed / believes / believing on Thesaurus. com
🍎 Elementary Level
verb (used without object), be·lieved, be·liev·ing.
to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so:
Only if one believes in something can one act purposefully.
verb (used with object), be·lieved, be·liev·ing.
to have confidence or faith in the truth of (a positive assertion, story, etc.); give credence to.
to have confidence in the assertions of (a person).
to have a conviction that (a person or thing) is, has been, or will be engaged in a given action or involved in a given situation:
The fugitive is believed to be headed for the Mexican border.
to suppose or assume; understand (usually followed by a noun clause):
I believe that he has left town.
Verb Phrases
believe in,
to be persuaded of the truth or existence of:
to believe in Zoroastrianism; to believe in ghosts.
to have faith in the reliability, honesty, benevolence, etc., of:
I can help only if you believe in me.
@Wade12345 that says basically the same as what I used. "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof "
Cute that you need to use elementary level explanations to understand though 😊
This is exactly why I don't debate Atheists. You're almost always liars and you make up bullshit that is clearly not the common usage of words and try to play stupid word games, or else claim an outright lie that everything either came from nothing or is self-eternal, both conjectures that have been proven wrong.
I'm sick of dealing with Atheists and agnostics. From now on i'm just going to block everyone I think is an atheist or agnostic. You're worthless and never admit when you're wrong.
@Wade12345 I just quoted your definition
Hello you two 👋! The problem is that every false doctrine has blind faith with no proof, that's why this world is going to hell so to speak. They just know they are correct with no proof and no care to seek the truth because of being extremely arrogant. So in other words, you don't care to seek the truth because you have faith, but since you Jesus is truth and is God, what you are really saying is that you don't care to believe in God.
@Wade12345 I have far more respect for theists who understand there is no evidence for thier beliefs, they are choosing to make a leap of faith. The fools are the ones who dont understand what evidence is.
@Wade12345 You claim to know the unknowable.
Do yourself a favour and go and learn what confirmation bias is, that is the extent of your 'miracles'.
The problem with trying to prove something like this is the fact that everyone has a different understanding of the term "God".
another problem is... people have different ideas of what PROOF actually means, lol...
@NathanDavis Yes, that too.
I think one sentence that can sum it up for us what God really means is "He is the first uncaused cause of everything else that exists".
well, that absolutely convinced me...
I heard a rumor that the existence of God can be proven mathematically but I don't know if it’s true (and I probably wouldn’t understand it if it was cause I’m not that good at math)
I think unless God shows up to say hi and perform miracles or throws bolts at infidels out of nowhere, some people will never believe them.
I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Norman L. Geisler
Abdu Murray has written “Seeing Jesus”. “Grand Central Question”
Absolutely not. Unless he magically comes down from so called heaven one day there ain't no proof of this magical being
No more than you can prove Mickey Mouse is a real anthropomorphic mouse.
Throughout history no one has ever been able to prove the existence of a “superior being”.
I'd be happy if you also check out the link. 🙏
I was just answering your question sir. That’s why they call religion a “belief and faith based organization”.
I see. That's why I asked you to check out the link.
The link I sent you is a series of posts through which I'm trying prove the existence of God. I want to see its defects and see if people can challenge it. If it interests you, you can check it out.
I'm a Deist and I approach God through Wisdom and first-hand experience. I've never had much faith, to be honest.
Observe:
The Universe began to exist. (Big Bang)
From nothing comes nothing. (Rene Descartes)
Therefore the Universe was Created by a Pre-existing Reality (Dr. Kaku et al)
Anything capable of Creating the Universe meets the common sense notion fo Almightiness.
Anything capable of being Almighty must be sentient.
Anything that is both Almighty and Sentient meets the common sense notion of God, The True Creator.
Not really. Any experiment you could ever design, and result it could give, you could just say that it was god through some convoluted explanation. In other word, there’s no way of verifying.
About as well as the existence of the Egyptian and Nordic gods.
I thought the whole idea of faith was to believe in something that cannot be proven
If the existence of a god could be proven it would have already happened. And if there was actually a god and he wanted people to believe in him, he would have made his existence obvious, which of course hasn't happened.
Yes and no. Religious people will have proof, but the atheist might not see it as proof.
If that was possible it would have happened 100s of years ago.
@Wade12345 dude u r awesome ;)
There’s an entire book on this titled “The Case for Christ”
Yes, it's called using the brain He gave us and looking at His invisible attributes in creation.
"For those that believe no explanation is needed. For those that do not believe no explanation is possible".
It’s a personal experience and there are believers and non believers. Science cannot prove HIS existence
Like you cannot prove your brain exists , too
@HopefulGuy94 you can say that but I have experienced God several times.
Our nickname reflect the way we see and approach the things in our life already , as your user name suggest , you won't be lucky enough to do so ;)
@HopefulGuy94 im unfortunate due to how the world treats me.
he is above the dome
anyone who says other wise
better learn
before the time
I think it IS proven, but I won't debate about it.
How is it proven?
Nope! Not a chance in hell! There's no such thing.
I think a god could easily show itself
What could proof of God even look like?
Not with today's technology, maybe in the future?
Can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I think that id doubtful
If God exists, maybe. Otherwise, no.
It already has
Nope.
I saw Him yesterday.
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