Should it be a bad thing if Christians aren't owning slaves or stoning their kids?

[BCRanger10]

Over the last couple of years, I've seen and heard comments that Christians don't really follow the Bible because we don't own slaves, don't stone disobedient children, beat unfaithful wives, or other things like that. To which I reply: Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Do the people who say this WANT us doing these things?

If not, then the criticism makes no sense whatsoever (not that it does anyway; it never has, at least to me).

One of two things is true. Either these are positive objective goods that Christians are blatantly disobeying or there's a bigger picture better explained by actual biblical scholars.

Or am I missing something?

[lightbulb27]

Christianity is about love, for God loved us first and we do so in like kind for others, for we are His body in the world, but the spirit of Christ that dwells in us.

When you frame questions from that viewpoint... love, things make more sense.

Owning a slave can make sense... if doing so out of love for them and the Bible supports that... e. g. they work for you 7 years during which time you train and prepare them for the world, and then they are free. Not allowed to abuse them. Otherwise, what chance does a hopless person have... with no resources, training and such. There are many today that would benefit... but the world is too corrupt to do what God... love... proposes. So people go on suffering for much longer and trauma propagates.

Stoning kids... hard to believe that was ever love and Jesus stopped people from stoning a woman at minimum. But then again, there is discipline... and that can be love. See the men stoning the woman were just a bunch of over done apes following their programming. Jesus, saw the repentent human being. Some kids need "straightened out". God is a disciplinarian... has to be...

[Anonymous]

Those laws are a part of ancient Jewish law. Christians, and especially Gentile Christians, are not bound by these laws.

Ephesians 5:25-29: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church

Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord.

Romans 7:5-6 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

[dreamstar72]

Anonymous just curious why are some of God’s laws now ancient, but other old laws are not?

[HelpfulWoman]

i think its more of a "who gets to pick and choose which parts of the bible you follow" argument...

[BCRanger10]

I get that, but it still plays back to what I said at the end of the original post. What I usually tell people for instance is first of all, the Church precedes the Bible. For that, if no one else, you'd look at Saint Jerome (spent 20 years translating the Bible at the request of the pope at that time).

The next thing I usually say is that Jerome and the other early Church Fathers and councils were closer to the times, languages, cultures, and styles of writing in which the books of the Bible were originally written. As with the alleged "inconsistencies" in the Bible, they would be better equipped to explain the reasons for the things I mentioned here.

[HelpfulWoman]

but thats the point. you're either saying the bible isn't accurate because old men have to "translate it" and therefore make it irrelevant for any arguments. or you're again saying that bible bashers get to pick and choose what they follow, again making it irrelevant

[BCRanger10]

No, that's not in fact what I'm saying. Full disclosure, I don't know the complete history behind it; I'd listened to an interesting presentation on it a while back, several years ago. However, if I were to add two and two, four would be that the original texts were written in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and a couple of other languages from before the coming of Christ. They were translated into Latin because Latin was the language of the Roman Empire, where Christianity took root.

Plus, there's also the fact the nowhere in the Bible does it say "this book has the final say on EVERYTHING, no questions asked". In fact, it says the opposite in a few spots, like appeals to the Church (Matthew 16) or appeals to tradition (2 Thessalonians 2).

That doesn't mean the Bible is wrong or irrelevant. It just means that there are other sources for Christian belief and practice.

[DrPepper12]

Ex Catholic here and historian with some experience in biblical studies. I've read the Bible cover to cover several times and it's all bullshit. Hell, The Bible we know did not even come into being until around the 300s CE and it was by a vote. Many other books were excluded. Many interpretations from the original Greek Hebrew Aramaic Latin etc sources are entirely corrupted, misinterpreted or in conflict with each other. Absolutely none of the New testament was written until about 60 to 90 years after jesus's death. As far as Leviticus, the book of Acts, and Judges, which is where most of the "rules" come from, they are a creature of their times and best looked at as a theocratic guidebook for living communally as humans urbanized around agriculture. It is FANTASY land. It IS however a BEAUTIFUL and GREAT source of literature and parables but it's just that. It's no more the word of God than the menu at a IHOP. Take it figuratively, not literally and your good to go. Plenty of "cafeteria" Christians do. It's the Bible thumping evangelicals you should be keeping an eye on who take it literally.

[BCRanger10]

"The Bible we know did not even come into being until around the 300s CE and it was by a vote." Yes, I'm keenly aware of this. And if there's to be a scandal about that, I'm not sure what it is or supposed to be.

[DrPepper12]

No, no scandal. Just that it is a work of humans, not God.

[BCRanger10]

Would there be a problem with that? Or should there be?

[Staximus]

"It's no more the word of God than the menu at a IHOP." That's a good one , I might have to start using that

[DrPepper12]

Well yes! If it's claimed by some to be the word of God and it manifestly is not then yes, that's a problem but all religions have never had any reservations about being contradictory.

[yulbsari]

BINGO!!!

[BCRanger10]

What would make it the Word of God then?

[DrPepper12]

@BCRanger10. Nothing. God doesn't exist. If you must have a diety for our very limited time here on this "pale, blue dot" look no further than the mirror. YOU and all our brothers and sisters are divine! Consider ethical humanism, Shintoism, Buddhism (the ORIGINAL from Siddhartha Guatama) or Stoicism (Marcus Aurelius) if you agree with what I've said. ANY of them are a much better and authentic guide for living IMHO.

[worldscolide]

People also fail to take into account when it was written.. So much of that stuff was common place back then.

To answer your question though, there are some Christians that still believe it's okay.. I directly experienced some of it. I can tell you more if you like.. In any case, I think where Christianity is right now is a good place for the good ones. The ones that believe as you do. I think those that say stuff like in your question are idiots of the highest order. Their ignorance suggests that a belief system can't evolve or change, and to be honest, if it didn't evolve or change it wouldn't exist right now. But Christianity has been around in one form or another for over 2000 years, of course it's changed over time..

[BCRanger10]

HelpfulWoman made a good point that it's allegedly about cherry-picking. I'd recommend reading my reply to her opinion (SOME of it overlaps with what you said).

And I don't doubt that there are some Christians who would say "yes, we should be doing these things". I don't know who they are, I don't know any personally though.

[worldscolide]

It was a foster home I was in.. Their branch of Christianity was pentecostal.. Chapel was required 3 times a day, and if I didn't do as everyone else did, they would drag me out, beat me until I was bleeding and bruised, they injected me with haloperidol and threw me in isolation for weeks at a time without access to a bathroom, and only allowed food once per day in the form of mustard and cheese sandwiches, and a single glass of water. I was forced to sleep in my own waste.. This went on from when I was 13 to when I was 16.

They claimed it was therapy in christ and it was their way of beating the demons out of me and humbling me in front of the lord.. It put a very sour taste in my mouth for a long time when it comes to Christianity.

It wasn't until I met my wife and her family that I started changing my mind. And no I don't blame Christians for what they did, but i do believe that humans are the only ones capable of turning something that is supposed to be that good into something evil.

[BCRanger10]

I think I remember you either telling me this directly or posting publicly about it before. That's heartbreaking to hear about, it really is.

[worldscolide]

Yeah I'm pretty public about it. I'm the reason they don't exist any more.

[NathanDavis]

what I really don't like are all those... who "owned slaves, stone children, beat wives" and other heinous things they did, but then... out of nowhere accept Christ as their saviour and, out of nowhere... now they're all better than you and criticize you for everything you choose although, none of what you ever did got even close to be as worse as they did in life

"born against Christians" Karens are the absolute worst... lol, when they act like this, of course

so, yes... being conveniently selective about these, and other things is very tricky

[handsomelad70]

AMEN, NathanDavis !!!

[NathanDavis]

and let's not even talk about how many versions of the bible are there... that were also conveniently edited and interpreted over and over through different times of history

the bible is a book made by men therefore not so holy

[Daniela1982]

That is what redemption is all about - redeeming those who would be unredeemable without God actually doing the work for you. After all, there is not one single person alive, or has ever been, without sin, except the Son of God himself. The difference is, a Christian knows enough to reach for a life ring when it is thrown to them. Will they be perfect after? No, but their sins are forgiven unlike the unrepentant man.

[Agape93]

It's just rich that they don't follow the rules of conduct that their religion dictates. Like kidnapping virgin girls for personal use after a war, killing people for eating shrimp, slavery etc.

Those who proclaim to be devout are only devout to a modern, more sensible version.

[BCRanger10]

And if the Bible isn't the sole rule of faith (the Catholic Church does not now, nor has she ever taught that the Bible is)?

[Agape93]

I'm more speaking of evangelicals and baptists, rather than catholic or orthodox

[Billlewis]

I'm sure the media will find a way to make that a negative.

[BCRanger10]

My thinking too. It seems to me that people who point out things like this are just looking for things to complain about.

[CheeseMonster]

I think it's about the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law. Usually I've only heard those examples brought up when a Christian is saying everyone has to follow the letter of the law in a certain case (like not having sex before marriage, or not getting tattoos). It is brought up to show they don't follow the letter of the law in other cases, so they shouldn't only look at the letter in this case either. They should look at the spirit or principles behind it, and follow those.

[Dargil]

Your premise is moronic. But fortunately morons aren't sinners. They are just deranged. But here's a non-moronic premise for you.

Would it be a bad thing if Muslims, Atheists and Communists stopped enslaving people or beheading and executing dissidents or castrating and poisoning their kids? Hint: DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH UNTIL THAT HAPPENS.

[Rebecca08]

If that's what you are saying - assuming that it's true that the Bible promotes stoning and owning slaves - basically it would meam that Christianity is good just because people don't follow it.

[BCRanger10]

Not quite sure I follow.

[nawtee_me]

Those who would say these things don’t know the Bible at all. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Jesus took our sins on himself when he died on the cross and paid the price that none of us could have paid.
For Christians it is no longer about works, it is about a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jude’s who is the Christ…..

[AngryCarl]

It depends if you think being Christian should involve following the example of Christ. In John 7:53 to 8:11 Jesus saves a woman from stoning.

[Anonymous]

yeah, the people who point to the OT in reference to homosexuality eat pork, shrimp, and think slavery and stoning people for adultery is wrong because they pick and chooose what they believe.

Same people who say they follow Christ but applaud and cheer when a politician insults or belittles people instead of praying for them.

[dustybiker2]

I think it's more sarcasm. From people who have a difficult time following the good book in only selective sense.

[jshm2]

They aren't burning witches and killing pagans either, what's your point?

[Olgamasha]

No it is not bad

[BCRanger10]

So then why do you think people gripe about this?

[Olgamasha]

Because they want to control other people’s behaviour

[loladevine]

If god told you too then I guess it’s hypocritical to use the Bible to defend other things I don't know what I’m talking about tho

[BarryLiverstone]

• Those that say that are trying to poke holes into the Bible by saying that Christians cherry pick parts to follow

[Staximus]

Religion is all hogwash. Anybody who thinks they know what happens after you die is delusional

[Twalli]

If you're following the bible, those thing are part of it.

[JayBones2469]

Yes. It's a sign of the end of days. We are straying further and further from God's will.

[FunkyMonkee]

According to Jesus, it is.

[strateguy632]

nope