Who Are the Indigenous People of North Africa? (Part 1)

[ElissaDido]

Amazigh flag: The blue symbolizes the Mediterrenean sea, the green is the Atlas mountains, the yellow is the Sahara desert and the center symbol symbolizes the free man.

Hi! I have decided to write this MyTake for multiple reasons:

- First, it’s to shed some light on the indigenous people of North Africa since not many people know about us. Indeed, I have already been asked “You’re African, how aren’t you black?” in my DM’s here on GaG.

- But I have also came across many Afrocentrists online who share historical fallacies about ancient North Africans and North African personalities, and as someone who is passionate about ancient history and antiquity, it bothers me because it feels like those afrocenstrists are stripping us modern North Africans from our ancestry and history by claiming it as their own (they claim that Ancient North Africans look more like them, than they look like us Modern day North Africans).

- And last but not least, it’s to tackle the fact that Americans tend to have a dichotomic view on this matter, it appears that they believe that every white skinned person is European, and every dark skinned person is Subsaharian.

North Africans/Amazighs are their own ethnic group, on average, they are neither Black, nor White nor Arab (semetic). On average, we are brown Caucasians. Darker than Europeans but lighter than most Indians, most Native Americans and obviously Sub-Saharian Africans.

1. North African indigenous people are called Amazigh (we prefer this term) or Berber

Depending on where you are in North Africa, those Berbers got mixed with different peoples, including Romans , Arabs, Spaniards, Phoenicians, Germanic, Sub Saharians and Ottoman/Turkish. Nonetheless, we are still mostly Berber despite our racial mixing and mosaic.
"Pure" berbers can still be found in some regions in the mountains of Morocco , Algeria and Tunisia.

2. A lot of us, including me, are in fact Arabized Berbers/Amazighs

Which means that we are genetically Berbers but adopted the Arabic language (just like how native Americans adopted the Spanish language).
But many of us still hold into their languages and didn't get Arabized ,especially in Morocco and Algeria (not so much in Tunisia).

3. Amazigh people are mostly concentrated in:

Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and to some extent in western Egypt and Mauritania, as-well as some nomadic tribes in the Sahara.

4. There are different tribes of Amazigh people, who share different physical characteristics and genetics.

Amazigh people look very diverse and can go from the lightest to the darkest depending on:
-The tribe and region they come from (but variations also exist within the same tribes).
- The foreign peoples they eventually got mixed with, including Arabs, Southern Europeans and Blacks.

The different Amazigh peoples are linked by their languages that are part of the Tamazight language family, more than they are by their genes. In fact, Berbers at the south of Tunisia , Algeria and Morocco look quite different from more northern Berbers (they are more influenced by Sub-Saharan Africa than most modern day Algerians, Tunisians and Northern Moroccans).

5. Some berbers are black like the Tuareg people

The tuaregs are a nomadic people who live in the Sahara desert. Mostly in southern Algeria, southern Libya, Mali etc.

The Sahara Desert and Atlas mountains played an important role as a genetic and cultural barrier between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africans

The Sahara Desert and Atlas mountains played an important role as a genetic and cultural barrier between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africans but the Tuaregs were the brave traveller of the Sahara Desert. They are a nomadic people and genetically an intermediary between darker sub-Saharan Africans at the south, and lighter caucasian Berbers at the north which explains their dark skin, but their more Caucasoid features compared to sub-Saharan Africans (they are semi Caucasian).

But when Afro-centrists claim our history (Moors and Carthaginians), they are claiming the history of the peoples who live in modern day Tunisia, Northern and Coastal Algeria + Morocco who weren’t black but were Olive-skinned Caucasians (Chaouis, Kabyles, Tunisian Berbers, Riffians etc...).

The Egyptians painted the North African "Libyans" (which meant the people to the West of them in North African) for example like this:

The order is: Berbers (or Libyans), Nubian, Levant People (where Phoenicia would be later in history), and Egypt.

5. Modern day north Africans don’t look much different from ancient north Africans:

Yes, this is how most ancient carthaginians (and Hannibal) looked like ^^^

Not like this (as Afro-centrists claim) :

The claim of afro centrists that North Africa was initially black but became white with European, Arab invasions and white slavery is completely wrong and far-fetched. Pure Berbers were never black/Sub Saharian.

If anything, they got darker from slavery after 700 AD and from the fact that some North African kingdoms most probably had darker Berbers and Africans fight for them in their armies, especially in Morocco (which is why they have more individuals with Sub-Saharian features than Algerians and Tunisians).

If anything, we got darker from slavery after 700 AD

Same could be said about Pheonician and Arab civilizations. Although Arabs and Phoenicians influenced, to a small extent the genetics of some North Africans, especially Tunisians, it’s important to note that there was never a mass immigration from the Levante to Carthage. A few merchants arrived and inter-married with the locals. As for the Arabs, they also intermarried with Berbers and never replaced the original inhabitants who are still to this day mostly Berber and not so different from the ancient population.

A reconstruction based on the body and DNA of an ancient Carthaginian man from Tunisia

6. Our origin is quite unknown.

But we know that Caucasian Berbers have been living in north Africa for at least 22 000 years.
Many different theories exist surrounding our origin. Some people claim a Eurasian ancestry from the East, or a levantine and Middle Eastern origin while some claim an east African ancestry. Others say that we moved back and forth between north Africa and the Iberian Peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal).

7. A few examples of the different tribes and different looks of North Africans

- The Kabyles of North Algeria (known for being some of, if not the lightest Native North Africans).

- My Ethnicity, the Chaouis (Western Algeria and Eastern Tunisia)

- Chleuh (Morocco)

- Riffians (Northern Morocco)

- Berbers of the Tunisian Desert/South

8. Other samples from the Football teams of North African countries

Tunisian team

Algerian team

Moroccan team

Thank you for reading. I will do a Part 2 about famous Native North Africans!

Here is the Part 2: Some Notable Indigenous (Amazigh) North African Figures (Part 2)

[front2back]

I had an argument with a friend about this some time ago. He solemnly believed everyone from Africa was Sub-Saharan black. I had to explain to him that, no, North Africans are a completely different background in terms of genetics and culture. He still didn't believe me until I showed him what a Tunisian woman looked like.

It's why "White" people are also considered to be North Africans and some from the middle east, not just Europeans.

[Dcmining]

It's "Caucasian" people who are considered to be North Africans, Middle Easterns, Europeans. Caucasian does not mean "white" as race has nothing to do with the color of your skin, but the shape of your skull. There are white or European Caucasians. There are also none white Caucasians who are the Indo-Caucasian from the Middle East, North Africa, Pakistan, and India and the Afro Caucasians who are from the Horn of Africa. The white and lighter-skinned North Africans today are descendants of invaders from the Middle East and Europe. The natural feature of Africa is black so the native North Africans would have been black.

[Femdomina]

Wonderful article, it reminds me of an old historical essay I had a few years ago, during the Culturology seminar on my University. Very educational, once again, fantastic MyTake 👍

[Femdomina]

Thanks :)

[Anonymous]

You did not mention a lot from Libya: pictures & info. Many times when I see anything relate to the Maghreb, I notice that Libya gets forgotten? Anyway... I'm from Morocco. We certainly share similar backgrounds to other Maghreb nations. We share similar food, similar traditional clothing, similar ethnic groups, same language, same religion, and same culture, but that doesn't mean a thing! It's only ancient history after all, and what matters is the present and not the past. Ancient history is all about the birth of ethnic groups, country's religion, culture... etc. The present is about important matters like politics, economy, and a country's overall stability. In this day and age, unfortunately Morocco's position in the Maghreb is very weak. I don't care about the other North African countries, I naturally only care about mine. I never will understand why hasn't Morocco remove itself from the Arab Maghreb Union since a while ago. It is in fact the worst union in the world. northafricapost.com/...g-demise-maghreb-union.html
www.eurasiareview.com/.../ Morocco keeps suffering from Algerian supremacy. We have our political leaders get beat up in Algeria, and Algerian soldiers shooting Moroccans near the borders. There is no fair cooperation between Morocco and the other North African countries, because they're Algeria's strong allies, therefore, you support having Morocco's other half get taken away from it, which is bad. The irony is the North African region except Egypt is referred to as المغرب العربي
"المغرب" another name for Morocco, yet we feel like the third wheel. We go through the most damages and our country is the least developed. It's mainly due to bad foreign relations with Algeria, a Maghreb country :), lovely right? You've wrote about the historical aspects of North Africa and I feel like pointing out its current situation. I say No to Maghreb United because there is no peace, there is no love, and there is no brotherhood.

[Opinion Owner]

and there is no support too, I forgot to include it.

[Opinion Owner]

The first is a wrong link
http://www.mena-forum.com/28306-2/

[JustindeDior]

The Y-haplogroup (paternal lineage) is an important part of human genetics. It not only reveals migration patterns of ethnic groups but also the social dynamics associated with it, such as conquest and power. Generally speaking, when a people are conquered by another ethnic group, the male conquerors insert themselves at the top of the mating pecking order. This is usually accomplished through rape, sexual coercion, the exclusion of men from the indigenous population (aka killing them), the hoarding of resources, the wielding of political power or a good PR/propaganda program (aka 'we are the best thing since sliced bread).

The most common paternal lineage (Y-haplogroup) in North Africa is E-M183 (E-M81). It is both so prevalent and specific in North Africa that it is referred to as the 'Berber Marker'. So, it essentially distinguishes Berber people from other populations.

A research paper was done exploring it's time-frame of origin:
'Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)'
Posted in: nature. com/articles/s41598-017-16271-y

It concluded that it spread throughout North Africa during two possible points in history.
1) From the Near-East during the Islamic Expansion in the 7th Century (approximately 1300 years ago)
2) At the end of the third Punic War (146 BCE), when Carthage (in current Tunisia) was defeated and destroyed, which marked the beginning of Roman dominance of the Mediterranean Area.

Either of these two time events calls into question the indigenous nature of the current Berber peoples to North Africa. Both of these events represent a conquest by an outside group of people. So if they were defeated by a different ethnic group of people in both cases, how is it that 'Berber men' were proliferating more afterwards than before the conquests? If anything the paternal 'Berber marker' should have had a sharp decrease. As I have stated earlier, the mating pecking order changes after a conquest, and the indigenous males are often subjugated.

Therefore, the research reveals a fairly recent origin of the paternal 'Berber marker' that is associated with current modern-day Berber populations. And given the evidence, to say that 'Pure Berbers' are not so different from the ancient population is erroneous at best.

[Anonymous]

One thing that outrages me about this article is that you call black people who speak the truth about their history Afrocentrists, but since you're white, what comes out your mouth is true. It's not us who you call Afrocentrist who are taking history that is not ours, it is you white people who are whitewashing black history.

Now if I myself, a black man were to tell you that the original North Africans were black, you would not believe me, you would call me an Afrocentrist. Fine, if you won't believe a black man then you will believe a white person. It is important to know that the original and natural color of entire Africa is “BLACK.” Nothing more nothing less. Every other white human in Africa today came from Europe-Asia.

Aristotle described Egypt as "excessively black." Alexander the Great described the Egyptians as being dark-skinned with wooly hair. So the Egyptians were black. Even looking at the way Egyptians depicted themselves in paintings, they were black and not white.

When the Roman invaders conquered Egypt and Maghreb they found so many black people that they called them Moors meaning dark-skinned. Mauritania means black people country and the name Morocco is possibly derived from the word Moor meaning dark-skinned.

In summary, North Africa was natively black, over years of invasions and religious conquest North Africans became lighter-skinned. Most indigenous black North Africans fled south into Sub-Saharan Africa. The ones who stayed were mixed with the invaders. Today the Lebus in Senegal can trace their DNA back to Libya where they originated from. The Nilotic people who are VERY dark originated in Egypt and moved south into Sub-Saharan Africa. It was also confirmed that the native Carthaginians were negroid or black. French anthropologist Stephane Gsell, the director of Alger museum had this to say: … the anthropological analysis of the skeletons found in Carthage proves that there is no racial or ethnic unity… the Semitic type (white Berber or Arab) characterized by an oval face, an aquiline thin nose, was not found in Carthage. On the other hand, the type with a more stretched out body than the legs is common to the skeletons found in Lebanon and Tyr (it corresponds to Phoenicians who were also Blacks)… the majority of the Carthaginian population was negroid”. There are even black North African tribes, like the Tuareg people, who are indigenous to North Africa. Today North Africa is a melting pot of different cultures and races- European Caucasian, Indo-Caucasian, Afro-Caucasian, and Negroid. However, if we are to ask who was there first, it would be black people. The lighter-skinned North Africans today are descendants of invaders from Europe and Middle East.

[RamsesIII]

These people are insane not to believe that there was a time in the world where all of Africa was black.

[Opinion Owner]

@RamsesIII IKR

[Opinion Owner]

At first, I thought North Africans were originally black but now I realized I am not correct. Science shows that most Berbers have a near eastern origin and are more closely related to Southwest Asians. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t any Sub-Saharan input before the slave trade as most Berbers have the haplagroup E1b1b which originated in East Africa. The Amazigh are not “white.” Most Berbers are brown or Middle Eastern with a small amount of black mtDNA. They are a mixed people.

[RolandCuthbert]

I have posted this before and I will post this again. You cannot decide what the cultural bond between Africans from North, South, East or West. If you don't feel you have any thing in common culturally with "Black" people, then speak for you. If you know a certain group, then speak for that group. But don't claim to speak for people who do not agree with you.

I have known several ladies from North Africa. I used to date a lady from Morocco. You don't decide whether or not we have a cultural connection we decide that.

"This short article is dedicated for all the Africans that said I’m not African and all the Arabs who said I’m not Arab.

The question of the Moroccan identity seems to be a debate that I always have to explain whenever I travel, especially when I meet some of my Africans and Arabs fellows, so Africans would ask me “where are you from?”, me” Morocco”, them: “Ah, you are an Arab who don’t admit the African origins”, then Arabs ask the same and then say “Oh you are the ones who don’t speak Arabic only French”. I’m not saying all the Africans and Arabs think the same way, but these answers and questions I’ve heard from many of them. Then I had to explain that Moroccan identity is mixed between the Arab, African and Amazighi culture, which make Morocco one of most diverse countries, with different languages, ethnics, cultures… But for some it seems not easy to understand."

sanaafouaizblog.wordpress.com/.../

sanaafouaizblog.files.wordpress.com/.../...4_n.jpg

[ElissaDido]

It’s not about admitting or not admitting, it’s about facts. You can clearly see the cultural and physical differences between north Africans and subsahran Africans. You are talking about the exceptions which are some Moroccans who most likely come from southern Morocco and/or have some black in them.
North Africans are Africans it’s not the point of myTake and I’m not even disputing this, everyone knows this, but North Africans are THEIR OWN PEOPLE who have their OWN CULTURE and LOOKS that is distinct from both Black Sub Saharians and White Europeans. And North Africans are Caucasians.

[RolandCuthbert]

? There are clear physical differences between Africans and African-Americans. Why is it our fault that you are only obsessed with the part of our genetic code responsible for skin color? There are no "exceptions" here. Clearly Africans and African-Americans have totally different genetic footprints when it comes to physical stature. Africans are made more for endurance. African-Americans more for power. Because for hundreds of years we had evolved along different cultural/genetic lines. Africans weren't really mixing with Europeans. African-Americans were. Africans weren't in the fields picking cotton as slaves.

sites.psu.edu/.../Kenyan-runners-300x190.jpg

4.bp.blogspot.com/.../sprint_athlete.png

"Spencer Wells, director of National Geographic's Genographic Project, explained to me that the African Americans they've tested range from 53 percent to 95 percent sub-Saharan African, 3 percent to 46 percent European and zero percent to 3 percent Native American. "

[ElissaDido]

Yet African Americans claim the North Africans as their ancestors "We was kangz", ironic.

[RolandCuthbert]

Look, throw your racist nonsense in the garbage. Don't blame us because racist "White" people reject you. Leave us out your self-hatred and self-loathing.

wsimag.com/.../21017-morocco-returns-to-the-african-union

The King said that Morocco, which withdrew from the AU, has never left Africa. It simply left an institution, in 1984, in very special circumstances, stressing the fact that Morocco's passionate relationship with the Continent explains why the recognition of a pseudo state "Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (SADR)” was understandably too hard for the Moroccan people to accept. "The time has come to reject manipulations and funding for separatist movements and to stop sustaining timeworn conflicts in Africa in order to concentrate on one course of action, that of promoting human and sustainable development, combating poverty and malnutrition, ensuring healthcare for our people, providing education for our children and raising the living standards for everyone," the King said.

[ElissaDido]

I made it clear in myTake that we aren't white , so I don't know what you're on about. If anything North Africans seek more validation from Arabs.

[WhistleForTheChoir]

When I lived in Morocco, I remember there being three distinct ethnic groups: Arab, Imazighen (of different tribes) and Andalus (from Andalucia in Spain). It seemed to me that Imazighen weren't a racially homogenous group as much as the Arabs and Andalusians. When I was in the northern part in the Riffi Mountains, they looked caucasian, but when I went to the south-eastern parts of the country in the Sahara Desert they were black. My French professor also was an Amazigh and identified as a black man (although if I just met him on the street in NYC, I would guess he was South Asian or Arab). So, I think trying to racially catagorize the Amazigh people is futile. It's an ethnic group, not a racial one. And also, side-note, the Amazigh people are a great illustration of why drawing lines between who is "white" and who is "black" is largely arbitrary and meaningless, based merely in cultural perspectives and historical injustices.

[jacquesvol]

@ElissaDido The problem seems the American way of wanting to put a label on everyone (Africans=black , Caucasians= white , Asians=yellow ) It just isn't possible to classify the whole world in such a simplistic way.

[RolandCuthbert]

@WhistleForTheChoir I don't get it. Non-"White" people keep trying to use this classification of race. And it is something that non-"Whites" traditionally never worried about. I don't worry about being a member of the "Black" race. I am a member of African-American Culture and I will find cultural common ground with any person who is open to defining that with me. I don't care if they are "White", "Yellow", "Black" or "Green".

Culture is the only meaningful standard when it comes to discussing human beings and how they think, how they behave and for understanding what is important to them.

I dated a Moroccan lady who in terms of racial appearances, looked no different than a "White" American woman. But she claimed deep cultural connections to sub-Sahara Africa. However, she acknowledged no common ground with African-Americans. She considered us un-African.

[RolandCuthbert]

@jacquesvol Well, I will acknowledge this. The people who use race, should have the right to define their group. I don't why Elissa keeps trying to tell me what every North African thinks, when it is obvious at least some do not agree with her.

Raciologists always claim the members of their supposed race, whether or not they agree with them. Elissa would claim Sana. . . even though Sana disagrees with everything she stands for.

Just incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_1tckvvB3s

[jacquesvol]

@RolandCuthbert Anthropologists don't believe in 'raciology': www.americananthro.org/.../Content.aspx

[ElissaDido]

You are obsessed with this sana chick
She doesn't speak for all north Africans
North Africans outside of North Africa are more likely to define themselves as Member of "THE" African culture because they are a minority and most minorities stick together against the majority.
Sana cooks couscous in her house , not Foufou, sana wear a takchita or Caftan to events , not an Africa Pagne, Sana speaks Berber or Arabic at home, not sub saharian languages.
Saying there is a culture bond between North Africans and sub saharian Africans is like saying there is a culture bond between Chinese people and Pakistanis because they are on the same continent.
You clearly have little to no knowledge on north African culture and society. If anything north Africans claim more a Bond with middle easterns and Arabs than other Africans. This is why the Arab league is a stronger notion than the African Union.

Your claim can be partially valid if the Moroccan in question comes from a semi nomadic Berber

[ElissaDido]

Tribe that is partially black

[RolandCuthbert]

@jacquesvol Oh, we know the AAA statement on race.

WHEN DID THEY MAKE THIS. . ?

BEFORE ELISSA WAS EVEN BORN.

MAY 17th, 1998.

But in this strange age. . . scientific fact is being supplanted by the science fiction of raciology.

"With the vast expansion of scientific knowledge in this century, however, it has become clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e. g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred."

[RolandCuthbert]

"She doesn't speak for all north Africans".

So are you just going to repeat everything I have said? I told you this when you first made this take. North Africans speak for themselves. Some agree with you. Some agree with Sana.

So now you are reaching. . . Sana isn't really from Morocco, because she disagrees with you? And what makes for cultural similarities? Are you an anthropologist? No. You don't hold any scholarly degrees. Anyone having any basic knowledge of Anthropology knows that culture is purely a subjective standard. There is no objective standard for claiming who or what has cultural common ground.

Objectively, "Whites" and "Blacks" in America have more in common culturally than with any other group. We have been together for centuries. Yet, there are many people who disagree that we are culturally similar.

That is the thing about culture, there is no such thing as an objective standard for defining human groups.

[RolandCuthbert]

She is partially "Black"?

What does that even mean?

Like I said, take your racist nonsense and throw it in the trash. That's where it belongs. Take your race hating, your race baiting and bury that nonsense under the trash can.

[ElissaDido]

As i said
Most don't agree with sana
Moroccans are on average darker than other north Africans but even every Moroccan I know doesn t feel culturally connected to other Africans unless they are some pan africanist communists or some shit (which is rare). In fact Moroccans can be some of the most racist people on earth and I know this from experience considering that most my friends are Moroccans.. Your average Moroccan especially from cities will feel more connected to a Palestinian than to a Nigerian.

[RolandCuthbert]

You don't know what most or all agree with. You have not interviewed them all. So speak for the North Africans who agree with you. Again, take your raciology, get a shovel and bury that garbage under the trash can. I am African-American. I don't speak for all African-Americans. Some African-Americans actually embrace the fiction of "race". That is their burden and their problem. I don't worry about speaking for them.

But when I create cultural bonds with North Africans, the last thing on my mind will be your self-loathing and race confusion/hatred. I will form bonds with Moroccans, Algerians, and whomever feels the inclination to form those bonds with me. If that gives you pain. . .

too bad, so sad.

"The Berber languages constitute a branch of the Afroasiatic family. They were traditionally written with the ancient Libyco-Berber script, which now exists in the form of Tifinagh."

Source;

Cabot L. Briggs

[ElissaDido]

AfroAsiatic language because Berber in Africa duh, if anything it proves the origin from the Middle East.

You can also form a bond with Japanese people if you want, it won't change facts ;)

[RolandCuthbert]

"You can also form a bond with Japanese people if you want, it won't change facts."

Let me explain something to you. I am not a racist. If you are, that's your burden. I don't form bonds based on skin color. I form bonds based on cultural connections. Again, the Morrocan lady I dated claimed deep cultural connections to sub-Sahara Africa. If your racist insanity wants to try to deny her that right, you are perfectly welcomed to try.

You do you. Let us do us. And if I form a cultural bond with a Martian, no racist insanity from you can or will change that.

The human race is connected genetically and culturally. Where it divides itself into groups is merely a social matter. But racists have never understood that. And unless you have a life-changing event, you never will.

It is so funny sometimes to see you guys twist yourself into knots. . . just to keep from being "Black".

"Black" was never about being a skin color. It was always about being a member of a culture.

Good luck!

[Curmudgeon]

"Let me explain something to you. I am not a racist."

Like hell you are not, Hotep.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Curmudgeon Why do you racist weirdos always project on to people who are not racist?

There is only one race. It is called "Human". Seeing humankind as one big family is called being "unracist". I will never claim that racial differences are real. And I will never claim that one supposed racial group is better than another. Nor will I be a friend to such a creature.

Now you can spin that until the end of time. But if you consider that to be racist. . . then quite simply, you are not playing with a full deck.

[RamsesIII]

I don't know why it is so hard for you guys to understand that there is no single white person indigenous to Africa. You guys are INSANE not to accept the fact that there was a time in the world where the whole continent of Africa was BLACK. Demining was right on his point that the native North Africans were black. Under MANY historical testimonies, North Africa was originally black. I don't know why it's so hard to fathom that North was fricken black. Genetics can debunk your claim that North Africa was indigenously black. Most North Africans have the haplogroup E1b1b which originated in the Horn of Africa. So how is it possible that a black person magically turned white once they reach North Africa? THE ONLY WAY IS THROUGH MIXING. North Africa has undergone over 1,000 years of mixing. Their skin did not turn white through adapting to climate. Look at the Eskimos, they have lived in cold climate for thousands of years and there skin is still on the darker side. Now mind you E1b1b is only a paternal haplogroup. Even people like the Kabyles, who are white have this haplogroup. A lot of the lighter-skinned North Africans have maternal DNA from Western Eurasia which links to a migrant that happend 12,000 years ago or DNA from Europe which would link to the white slave trade. The Tuaregs have the purest Berber DNA because they have paternal and maternal DNA from Africa. When it sais “North African” on a DNA Test, it is a distinction made for a migration that happend 12,000 years ago from Western Eurasia into North Africa. None-black people have been living in North Africa for 12,000 years. For example, there was this woman who was 95% North African, but her haplagroup was found in Ireland and Poland. So no matter what you Eurocentrists think, North Africa was originally black. Facts speak louder than lies.

[RamsesIII]

I had a typo. I meant genetics can debunk your claim that North Africa was originally white.

[RamsesIII]

Another typo: Demining was Dcmining.

[D_Bone_Steak]

We waz kangs theory got blown to bits once they did DNA tests on mummies. Turkish and various European descendents...

Oh well... place "American" after the prior identifier (African) and IQ scores go up about 10 points... as well as their genetics mixed with Europeans. I hate to be racial but it is what it is... I don't expect a golden retriever to behave like a chiwawa and the same goes for humans.

Bottom line... differences exist, and it's time we work around it instead of trying to ignore it away. Otherwise the first 48 wouldn't be filled with just one group of peoples.

[TatyanaTheEmpress]

Exactly, outstanding mytake, with great points. Amazigh people (Berbers, Moors, Tuaregs etc) are not black Africans, nor Arabs, though, lots of them speak Arabic, because of the Arabic invasion and centuries of Arabization. The same thing happened to ancient Egyptians, mostly because they adopted Arabic culture along with Islam. Regardless of that, some of them still speak Berber languages, just like Egyptian Orthodox christians speak Coptic, which belongs to Hamitic language family (same like Berber languages and dialects).
Unlike them, Phoenicians were Semitic, but obviously different from Arabs and Hebrews. Modern Phoenician national movement exists in their homeland - Lebanon (ancient Phoenicia). From there, they were spreading their influence by trading in all three "old world" continents (Asia, Europe and Africa). Of course, Carthage in present Tunisia was their most famous colony.
Congrats, this is one of the best mytakes on the GaG :) ✌

[Oram52]

Well it makes sense. These countries/tribes originated beside mediterranean. Civilizations usually sprung up beside rivers. Climate isn't that drastically different in either side of mediterranean. Personally when I thought of Hannibal go fight Romans I imagined somebody that would be similar to people in Tunisia today.

[Dcmining]

French anthropologist Stephane Gsell, the director of Alger museum had this to say: … the anthropological analysis of the skeletons found in Carthage proves that there is no racial or ethnic unity… the Semitic type (white Berber or Arab) characterized by an oval face, an aquiline thin nose, was not found in Carthage. On the other hand, the type with a more stretched out body than the legs is common to the skeletons found in Lebanon and Tyr (it corresponds to Phoenicians who were also Blacks)… the majority of the Carthaginian population was negroid”.

[Oram52]

@Dcmining Yes of course 🙄 Do provide us some evidence. Just because you want to re-write history to suit specific purpose it is not going to become so. Consensus is too overwhelming for history and archeological date to be ignored.

[Dcmining]

I just gave you evidence from an archaeologist who states history himself.

[Oram52]

@Dcmining You provided no evidence, and we have no idea what precisely he based his opinion on apart from he says it was his analysis of skeletons. Archeologists, Anthropologists and historians overwhelmingly disagree with him.

[Dcmining]

Basing his opinion off of the analysis of skeletons is very accurate. Race scientifically has nothing to do with the color of someone’s skin, but the shape of someone’s skull. The negroid skull has some distinct features like a protruding jawline found in the Sphinx. So this guys opinion is valid.

[Oram52]

@Dcmining Its not valid, one you have not provided us any link to prove that. What precisely did he say, what did he make his judgements on that he disagrees with everyone before him having done same analysis. Not to mention disagreeing with other experts in different fields like I mentioned. Why should take opinion of one expert when other 99 disagree with him?

[Dcmining]

I'm not Xper level 3+ so I can't send you any links. :C

[Dcmining]

I know this is months later but I realize I am wrong. That statement was fabricated by Cheikh Anta Diop. Carthaginians probably didn't look too different from modern Tunisians.

[HighlyQuestionable]

I have generally understood and had a high opinion of the Amazigh Culture. You article was interesting and informative.

I write this to inform you and your people of a great potential threat to your culture. In The USA and Europe (and perhaps elsewhere) a new and disturbing threat has risen over the last century.

They are called "M" or the "Thousands" an extremist organization of Gypsies, nomadic criminals and other denizens of the criminal underworld, all galvanized by their extreme xenophobia against cultures different from their own.

My hometown was taken over by this group. and hundreds of towns worldwide have met the same fate, towns like Fort Worth Texas, Rathkeale Ireland, and others too numerous to count.

I pray for the safety of your Amazigh People and their homeland.

[amel23]

I'm Tunisian and when i try to explain to pple I'm from north Africa they tell me u don't look black lol

[ElissaDido]

Ayyy fellow tunisian
At least you didn't come across people who told you that you are the product of White and Arab people raping native black North Africans haha

[amel23]

They told me u r white bc Europeans raped ur pple and ur crazy side is bc Arabs raped ur pple but I'm used to it I guess they tell it to everyone then

[ElissaDido]

hahah do you live in Tunisia?
Yes the modern North Africans are a product"Rape" theory is common among some people online lmao.

[amel23]

Yes (soussa) I think all mediocre minds think the same lol

[ElissaDido]

Nice! I love Soussa!

[HighlyQuestionable]

They're ignorant.
Plain and simple.

[DiegoO]

Who are the indigenous people of North Africa? The most racially, culturally, ethnically mixed demography in Africa, easy as that.

Afrocentrist are no different from eurocentrist who claim all Africans are black, and all Europeans are white.

Call it North Africa, call it Southern Europe, both have a history in
common, and they have been connect for thousands of years. In other words, yes, many North Africans are mixed, not only with Arabs abd southern Europeans, they are mixed with with the rest of the African population, much more long ago than you said.

[DiegoO]

So Elissa, by definition you are mixed as a coctail can be. You have native North African, and the rest of Africa in you. Also you are part Arab and probably southern European.

[ImaginativeDreamer]

Fantastic explanation for those ignorant people who think that all Africans are black. Even ancient Egyptian paintings show that Egyptians were clearly lighter skinned, compared to their slaves from Nubia, long time before the Greeks, Romans and Arabs invaded Egypt: image.slidesharecdn.com/.../slide-12-1024.jpg

[ImaginativeDreamer]

@Dcmining Nope, Aristotle was never in Egypt so he couldn't have possible known what Egyptians look like. Alexander compared them with Greeks, of course Egyptian were a bit darker, but that doesn't change the fact they were Caucasians (Hamitic Copts).

[ImaginativeDreamer]

@Dcmining That's what I said, they are Caucasians, not European type, but African Hamitic type of Caucasians... and that doesn't make them black, cause they are clearly not sub-saharans.
You can see white prisoners being tortured in pictures related to any medieval European country, but that doesn't change the fact Egyptians were Caucasians... the same goes for Ramses, he killed possibly some Greek, who were lighter skinned than Egyptians, but that's because of climate differences, and it still doesn't change the fact that Egyptians are Caucasians.
Besides all that, this is my reply to this question, you have your opinion, and I don't care about it, my answer is not a matter of discussion.

[Being_a_good_Indian]

cdn.shopify.com/.../thanks_large_large.jpg

I would be waiting for Part 2. Interesting Take. 😊

[Curmudgeon]

Thank you for the excellent debunking of "Afrocentric" pseudo history. The peoples of North Africa were and are Mediterranean.

[jacquesvol]

Good take but WHY that obsession about black or not black?

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, the poster has some deep issues. She has always claimed to speak for all North Africans. I am sure many don't recognize any cultural connection to as she puts it. . ."Black" Africans. But many do. I am posting my response.

[ElissaDido]

@RolandCuthbert Well, you are going to mention Southern and Desert berbers.
Of course you know more than us North Africans duh.

[Curmudgeon]

Funny you don't ask that of the Afrocentrists.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't claim to know your "culture" more than you. But you do not speak for all North Africans, that much I know for absolutely certain.

And you are going to find a way to live with "Black" Africans and as you term it. . ."Northern" Africans who reject your racial fantasy and who choose to from cultural connections among each other. So do you.

Let us. . . do us.

You guys can go to Sana Afouaiz's blog. She talks about these types of subjects all the time.

sanaafouaizblog.wordpress.com/.../

sanaafouaizblog.files.wordpress.com/.../...1_n.jpg

[ElissaDido]

@RolandCuthbert I speak for most North Africans. You are speaking about a minority. Heck we identify (mistakengly) ourselves as Arabs much more than Black.
I have friends and family from all over North Africa, you can't be the one speaking on our behalf.

[RolandCuthbert]

You can claim to speak for some, most, or all.

It will still just be a claim.

Again, I post because I don't want all African-Americans to think that they have to avoid all North Africans because of what you post about. I encourage all African-Americans to meet North Africans on their own terms. And they will find that many North Africans disagree with you.

Not everyone accepts racial standards or believes in race nonsense.

"Time Has Now Come for Morocco to regain 'its Natural Place' within the African Union

In a message to the 27th summit of the African Union in Kigali, Moroccan King Mohammed VI announced Morocco's return to the African union. “Time has now come" so that Morocco regains its natural place within the African Union (AU), stressed HM King Mohammed VI in a message to the 27th AU Summit, held in Kigali last month.

"One cannot change geography, nor can one escape the burden of history," the Sovereign noted."

[WhistleForTheChoir]

@RolandCuthbert Dude, it seems like you are saying that without people identifying themselves as black, you can have no cultural connection to them and shouldn't bother engaging them. Now, I doubt that's what you're saying, but that's how you're coming across, so you need to communicate. Most Amazigh people DO NOT identify as black. They identify as Amazigh first, and in their culture black/white isn't really such a big thing like it is here in the West.

[Curmudgeon]

@RolandCuthbert "racial fantasies", indeed! Projection does not just happen at the theatres for you!

[jacquesvol]

The cradle of humanity could very well be Morocco: www.theguardian.com/.../oldest-homo-sapiens-bones-ever-found-shake-foundations-of-the-human-story

[RolandCuthbert]

@WhistleForTheChoir Dude, you don't understand what culture is. . . or what it means.

Because I don't use race. I am not a member of the "Black" race. I am a member of "Black" culture which is called African-American Culture in America.

So tell me raciologist. . . .

Is Sana "Black"? She is North African like the creator of this MyTake. I don't know raciology. I don't do raciology. I defer to you, since you are the expert on raciology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_1tckvvB3s

[RolandCuthbert]

@Curmudgeon And you. . . you just keep posting nonsense.

Do you have anything to say?

Anything to add?

No?

[Curmudgeon]

@RolandCuthbert Keep on projecting.

Thought for you: Deportation.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Curmudgeon Thought for you.

Take your meds.

[WhistleForTheChoir]

@RolandCuthbert I don't know what a culture is? You're the one who seems to want to define people's cultures by the continents they live on and the skin color they have. You're not a part of the "black race", but the "black culture". Africa is the most culturally diverse continent on Earth. To claim, as you have, that there is one "black culture", that all people with roots in Africa share, is functionally the same as claiming there is one "black race".

[RolandCuthbert]

@WhistleForTheChoir You are just talking yourself into knots. I define culture the way cultural groups define themselves. For instance, one of my "life-changing" events was getting to know American Indians. Before my exposure, I assumed all of them claimed cultural common ground.

I was wrong.

Many American Indians while acknowledging the shared history of theft, racism, abuse, rape, and murder do not claim to share the same culture or even related cultures. I witnessed this first hand when a Cherokee woman met a group of Pueblo Indians.

Culture is measured in terms of itself. I know you don't really understand what that means. But I have a suggestion for you.

Take a class on cultural anthropology.

It will take time. Because raciology has screwed up the brains of a lot of you young folks. But the science is much different than what is discussed among laypeople.

www.khanacademy.org/.../culture-and-society

[jacquesvol]

@WhistleForTheChoir black/white is mainly a big thing in the US. Much less in Europe.

[RolandCuthbert]

Oh, Jacques, I get that. The disease was created in America and because America has had such an effect on world culture many people have adopted it. Throughout this conversation, people have gotten confused over "Black" and African. African is African, I could give a flip about what color it is. Now, if you want to say you are not African-related, that's on you. But to claim a relationship based on skin color means you are a beer short of a six pack.

I mean you can do it. But claim it for what it is. . . raciology. People who believe in skin color culture are beyond help. But you and I are kind of old hacks at this game. Racists were always confused about human differences. When they say "race", we just fix the equation for them. We substitute culture. They just think someone's skin color affects their behavior or beliefs. And what is even more weird, they think non-"White" groups believe in their weird definition of race.

[RolandCuthbert]

I just want to add the explanation of "White" and "Black" and why they are in quotes. "White" people. . . my working definition is simply the folks who they they are "White". "Black" people are African-Americans.

You and I know why that is. Because Norwegians don't refer to themselves as "White". They refer to themselves as Norwegians. My fiancee does not refer to herself as "White", she says she is Austrian. My best friend was married to a Polish woman. She never identified as being "White" one day in her life.

And our friend who started this MyTake claims that culture cannot transcend race. I don't know if she has been under a rock for her whole existence or what.

Well, she should read about Soledad O'Brien at "Black" Enterprise

cdn.blackenterprise.com/.../...lack-enterprise.jpg

www.blackenterprise.com/.../

[NineBreaker]

I probably have Amazigh ancestry because I have Moroccan Ancestry on my father's side. I took a DNA test, and I'm almost 1/3 North African, and 2/3 Sub-Saharan African (most of which is East African), with a small percentage of Iberian and Italian.

It's not unusual though, because my mother is Nubian, and my dad is part Nubian.

[NineBreaker]

Anyway, I really enjoyed reading this contribution.

[Tanisha69]

This is one of the best MyTakes ever. I know some Tunisians and they are gorgeous both the guys and the girls. Friendly people too, we had a family from there move into my hood years ago. They always cooked the best food ever.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Anyone that looks at you and ask if you are black is a idiot. Your features and hair texture is no where close to that of a black person.

Besides do these people even realize that Africa is a continent with over 40 countries?

[Anonymous]

Exactly, excellent explanation, Egyptians and Berbers were not "black", they were North African Caucasians, just like Arabs and Hebrews are Middle Eastern Caucasians.
However, the difference is in ethnicity, Arabs and Hebrews are Semitic ethnicity, while Egyptians and Berbers are Hamitic.
In this video, an indigenous Egyptian is explaining why Afro-American supremacists are completely deluded, as you can see by the reconstruction of ancient Egyptian rulers (for example Queen Nefertiti), long time before Greeks and Romans came to Egypt, therefore, it's obvious that black people in Egypt were only slaves, while free Egyptians and their Pharaohs were Caucasians.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/SQ9ZVxWwhYw

[Anonymous]

Nice take! Learnt a lot. I have one small question. Why are Egyptians separately depicted in this picture of yours? Since Libya is the country next to Egypt, does that mean they aren't considered to be North Africans?
cf.girlsaskguys.com/.../...0-a8be-a26d5760f0d7.jpg

[ElissaDido]

Lybian was the term used to describe all the peoples living west to Egypt, so Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco :))