Why I don't Believe the Big-Bang, Ignorance or Something Else?

[_SOARER]

Many people will quickly laugh or scoff at this. I am just writing it because I was inspired by a question which asked "Why are Christians so Ignorant?" The asker bombarded me with numbers, measurements, theories, forces and things a common man probably doesn't understand. I for sure didn't understand any of it. Its almost as if I was supposed to be convinced by the information, but information certainly doesn't convince most people of anything. the 'Ignorant Christians' he mentioned, probably wouldn't be convinced by his rhetoric and information either.

Explain this shit to me, please haha <3

Its as if accepting all science would make us educated or knowledgeable. But would it make us truthful? And would it make us educated to accept it, even if we couldn't comprehend it?

In his case he was arguing about evolutionary science and origin. The big-bang theory is popular and widely accepted. I don't accept it because it doesn't make sense to me on a philosophical level.

My understanding is that I can't truly understand how our universe was created scientifically. I can't go back and see it for myself and it can never be reproduced and tested. But can such a thing be observed? In my life I have only seen order in nature. Everything in nature serves a purpose and has a function. I have never seen order come out of chaos. The big-bang theory suggests that from chaos order was created. So to accept something on that premise, I am skeptical. I don't understand how scientists came to those conclusions exactly. They can quote massive amounts of radiation, forces, gasses, etc. It doesn't convince me because I am not a scientist. I don't understand what those numbers actually mean and most common people don't either. They accept because the experts agree on it. I don't doubt the measurements and numbers I doubt the conclusions based upon the evidence.

I might accept that the big-bang happened, but I won't accept that its the cause of ultimate reality.

I would like to know your take on the big-bang, what you think about it, what you know about it, and what you think of my opinion on the matter. Good or bad its good to hear what others have to say!

God bless and thank you for reading. If you even bothered to do so. <3

Too grand to understand?

[Jac2424]

I understand your point of view. You have every right to believe what ever you want about the origin of the universe. If it makes you happy and doesn't enchroch on anybody else's human rights, go for it!!
If you are honstly asking my take on this and you are genuinely interested in truth, here's what I think...
It is important to question everything, including science, but in doing so it is important to take the time to try to understand it. And yes, I get that it could be difficult to grasp if you haven't been exposed to fundamental scientific principals (though you should have been at school). If you learn just a little about scientific method and how science actually works you'll understand proof and sciences ability to provide it to everyone.
Science is all about evidence, lot and lots of scrutinized, replicateable evidence. This is why it works, it doesn't rely on oppinion or abstract philosophy. It doesn't even care if you believe in it or not, it just is. And anyone can test it and come up with the same results.
Every piece of food you eat, every medicine you've ever taken, every phone or computer you've used, every mode of transport you've taken, everything... everything is science.
Scientists have spent years and years studying in their field becoming experts and making discoveries. They have demonstrated evolution over and over again, they have dated fossils to pre historic times, they have cured disease, they have sent humans into space, if the incredible things that are achieved by science every day aren't enough to convince you of its validity then I doubt anything will.
As far as the Big Bang goes, it seems plausable. I'm not an astro physicist, but the evidence is there to support it as far as I can see.
But the thing is, science is constantly evolving and changing as we make new discoveries. Science is constantly questioning and challengeing it's self unlike religion which is stagnent. Religion seems to ignore facts and truth in order to uphold itself.
When I question the world around me I find that religion is far less plausable than science.
If the smartest minds in the world say that something is likely to be true based on their knowege and the knolwege of the smartest minds that have come before them I'm inclind to believe them.
And the awesome thing about it is I know that scientists are willing to accept they're ability to be proven wrong, something which religion, despite being proven wrong time and time again, never does. I'm not sure humanity will ever know everything about the origins of the universe. The more we find out, the more there is to know.

One thing I can say for sure - If I am struck by a serious injury or illness I want to be treated by scientific doctors not preyed for by religion.

[_SOARER]

I am not condemning science.
I also am not saying it is not valuable.
What I am saying is that science can never answer the existential questions. Science is important for understanding the material world but not ultimate reality.

You said science is replicable, however we are not able to replicate the big bang, we weren't around to observe it. We can only observe its effects.
Even scientists have faith. Religion has always questioned itself and looked inwards. In 1960 they had 2nd Vatican council. They changed and addressed many thing in regards to the church. Even among protestants there is endless division and scrutiny. So I think you view religion as something dogmatic or overly dogmatic
I can argue science is dogmatic.

To understand the universe is a question of philosophy not science. That was the point of this MyTake.
I do appreciate your opinion though I think it's very sensible

[Jac2424]

Thanks :)
I agree that science can't answer the existential questions. But personally, I don't think religion can either.
And, I've always found it odd that they can just change the bible like that, without god's say so or something... to me it kind of undermines the whole thing.
Actually we can see the light from the big bang still, the light from it has just moved really far away.
The way light, space and time work is incredibly facinating.

[_SOARER]

Also I would never impose on the free will of others to believe in what I believe. I just ask they do the same ❤❤❤

I know, I just want them to admit that something must come from something else 😂😭 you can't just start with nothing and begin creating. There must be something that's eternal ❤

[Daniela1982]

You seem to overlook the fact that 40 years ago, by their research and testing, science put forth their knowledge in the Encylopedia Britannica and other science books as gospel. Now 40 years later they say, oh, we were wrong, this is now what we believe. Forty years from now it will be different still. Science is not infallible and I sometimes I think they just come up with BS in order to keep their jobs because the people paying their salary want different results. Just like in archeology and history. They say some things were created 4,000 years ago even though they hadn't the ability to create some things 4,000 years ago. But they are ignored because they don't want to face the fact that it may be true, that there were more advanced races in the distant past that may have created certain things, like the pyramids, and the Egyptians or other races just claimed/inherited these wonders as their own and used them for their own purposes. It has been shown that different races have built their own cities on top of other ruins of other prior civilizations. We don't even know what is in our own deep oceans as much as we know about the moon. So science is only as good as the men who working in it. You know what they say. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. At least he Bible is the same as it was from day one.

[Regmorus]

@Daniela1982 Someone needs catching up to do. Bible is the same;) 😂🤣😅 Which one, which one? I am not going to argue about science, religion etc. It's just a pointer.

[Regmorus]

Wonderful mytake! That or something like that needed to be said openly!

To me big bang is the best description of origin of the universe for all the practical purposes and scientific purposes we need this description for.
But that's all.
In scientific frame of thinking big bang is very believable. In any other frame of thinking it is not. Why is scientific frame better than the others? The answer is it is not. It has some special positive feature that it allows us advancement in practical applications whereas other frames of thinking are not likely to offer this advantage.

Since the modern reality explicitly fixes on materialism in people's living, thinking and doing it is considered to be the most important thing and is promoted to be the most important thing. To give some justice when it is deserved and to clarify: of course humanity always fixes on materialism - that's life, BUT the fixation was implicit until nowadays.

I personally don't have THE favourite frame of thinking, not the scientific, nor another one.

I won't go into details on big bang because it'd be pretty challenging to read essay like you mentioned. Based on an cosmological theory from university physical astronomy course and on some short appealing to me theory on how it came to big bang.

[_SOARER]

Thank you man, you get it.
Science alone can't explain ultimate reality. I dont think the scientists who discovered it postulated the big bang thought that people would view it as the origin or the basis for ultimate reality

But the materialists, in particular the New Athiests sort of pushed the big-bang to become ultimate reality.

[Regmorus]

There is a very important subtlety in all this. Any explanation is only legit if you accept it to be an explanation. An objective explanation of reality is impossible per se because anyone bases on fundamental assumptions - be they stated explicitly or be they not. One of the assumptions is: legitimacy of the framework in which logical connections and derivations of implications are carried out. The more plausible assumptions are then just the statements, we, or scientists or anyone have to accept as truth made in the frame of the given system. The funny thing is the only possbility to scientifically convince ourselves about /establish their truthness is to rely on their own interconnections and predictability of events or evolutions of different systems which are made again in exactly the same "yet" unjustified frame. Any description of reality is self-referring per se and hence can't be legitimated objectively. Here Steven Hawking adressed the issue of self-referring, albeit with a different aim - to show why it might be that theory of everything is impossible. But it is still an interested talk and I estimate it to be more or less understandable without special background. www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/.../hawking.html

[_SOARER]

Thank you for sharing, that's very interesting
We need faith in even in science
Faith is important because when we make assumptions it takes a bit of faith in my opinion

[Regmorus]

You are COMPLETELY right, exactly this is the point! Cheers! Ironically human beings can't do without faith... Never, even while (if) they are convinced there is not a bit in their doing or thinking:) Of course the particular kinds of faith can be different

[_SOARER]

You put it very eloquently when I get back home I will read the article you linked. Thank you so much!

[Regmorus]

I should confess about the article that I had in wrong in my memory, unfortunately. I looked trough it to refresh if my claim about readability without having special background is justified and it is rather not. Sorry. You can get the idea and more or less the connections, but many things in it probably will be very much black box to you.

[errorgoodnameunfound]

What I think is that the whole universe was in a hot, dense state but then,
nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started, and...
the earth began to cool, the autotrophs began to drool,
And neanderthals developed tools.
We also built a wall (and pyramids)
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries
I think it all started with the big bang. :)

Since the dawn of man is really not that long, as every galaxy was formed in less time than it takes to say all this.
A fraction of a second and the elements were made and the bipeds stood up straight, as the dinosaurs all met their fate.
They tried to leap but they were late
And they all died (they froze their asses off)
The oceans and Pangea, see ya, I would abhor to be ya
and it was set in motion by the same big bang.

It's expanding ever outward but one day
It will cause the stars to go the other way.
Collapsing ever inward, we won't be here, it won't be heard.
Our best and brightest figure that it'll make an even bigger bang.

Australopithecus would really have been sick of us, debating how we're here, they're catching deer (we're catching viruses)
Religion or astronomy (Descartes or Deuteronomy)
It all started with the big bang.

Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology
It all started with the big bang!
IT ALL STARTED WITH A BIG BANG!
:D

[_SOARER]

That's propaganda right there haha
What caused the bang man!

[errorgoodnameunfound]

dude that's the "Big Bang Theory" theme song xD it was a joke.

[_SOARER]

I know it's the theme song
Shows like that are propaganda.

[errorgoodnameunfound]

Lolz again. Never watched it as in general not much a fan of sitcoms, but I know some main premises of the show. I do love how catchy the song is, cause whether or not it may be true, it doesn't change how fun it is to sing :) What in your eyes are "shows like that" and how are they "propaganda"?

[_SOARER]

Well all shows especially ones as popular as big-bang theory are propaganda.
They push different aspects of culture upon the viewer. Its as if the studio makes a shadow-america, which slowly through television and movies becomes the real america.

in the 1950s the American dream was to work, get a fair wage and have a house.
in 2020, its to acquire as much capital as possible and pursue all your desires. It took years of consumerist propaganda through movies, tv, and magazines to make that possible.

in the case of big-bang theory, the intro is the mantra of scientism. The viewers of the show believe everything in the intro. Its repeated every episode for the viewer to keep confirming his or her bias.

[errorgoodnameunfound]

"in the 1950s the American dream was to work, get a fair wage and have a house.
in 2020, its to acquire as much capital as possible and pursue all your desires. It took years of consumerist propaganda through movies, tv, and magazines to make that possible."

Eh life in the 50s likely wasn't that much more glamorous than today as you wouldn't be able to be in this site in the first place. Getting a house and fair wages I'm pretty sure count as capital and desires.

I'm conflicted on attacking consumerism as I'm a minimalist myself but also a free market capitalist libertarian. So though I argue media and such help with propaganda, I blame the consumer, mainly irresponsible parents in that case. I see much more issue with government that give no choice not businesses that do...

[errorgoodnameunfound]

Remember media consumption is a choice. NOBODY forces anyone to consume any media. And there are many media options. Its the consumer fault in that case if they believe all they see. As I said mainly the parents as they are both adults and responsible for children's eyes. Nobody else.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Well first off have we seen the big bang? Well in a way, yes. Remember that light travels at a finite speed so when we look at alpha centauri, you're not seeing it now, you're seeing it 4 years and 4 months ago. If you see a galaxy cluster 760 million light years away, you're seeing it 760 million years ago and when you look 13 billion light years away, we see the light of the big bang (the cosmic background radiation).

And order can come from disorder if other forces besides stochastic brownian motion is involved. For examples liquid water molecules are very "disordered" but if you freeze it, the molecules become very "ordered". This is because said formation wasn't governed by chance but by electromagnetic interactions and thermodynamics:

Similarly ordered stars can form from clouds of hydrogen gas (nebula) because instead of being dictated by chance, star formation is "controlled" by gravity and the thermonuclear force:

[Daniela1982]

Uhhhhh, Whut?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@Daniela1982 What do you mean "Whut"?

[Daniela1982]

Whut = what?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@Daniela1982 Well what do you need clarified?

[Daniela1982]

How you figure that God can't make everything, yet the material for a big bang comes out of no where, from nothing, and suddenly decides to go bang. It is easier to believe that God created everything.

[_SOARER]

@Daniela1982 Not only easier but more reasonable.
Even has sound philosophical foundations.
Faith+Reason <3

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

"Easier", yes. "Resonable", no. All the matter/energy in the universe always existed but always is defined within the limits of time itself. The universe initially existed as a singularity and at a singularity there is no passage of time. So it's not that there was nothing before the big bang, there was no "before the big bang".

[battonjason1976]

I share your thoughts on the matter. It just does not stand to reason that some random explosion resulting from a series of unlikely events happened by some fluke and kicked off all life and existence as we know it today. The more knowledgeable we become concerning the scientific laws governing the universe, the it seems that they are in place for very specific purposes acting like pieces of a complex puzzle giving perfect order to our universe. For example, as a pre-med student I can personally attest to the complexity of our own bodies. It appears as if the universe and all life was created or orchestrated by a form of intelligence of the highest degree. We are still learning about it. You could almost say that the world was created by the most intelligent and advanced scientists and engineers of all time. Although theorically possible, it seems very unlikely that life began by chance or accident looking at it mathematically and scientifically. In fact, Religion and Science are not so much at odds with each other. Some of the greatest Scientific minds to have lived were actually Christian philosophers. Some of which were even Saints.

[_SOARER]

Thank you!
It was the New Atheists who set up the Science V. Religion Dialectic.
I am not saying religion disproves science or vice-versa
Agreed, why too complex and functional to be happen chance.

[Daniela1982]

So where did the matter come from that made the big bang? A bang that big would have scattered atoms every which way and destroyed most of it in the process. I think this cat has the answer to our universe. We are just part of a piece of jewelry on some stray whisker's neck. It makes as much sense as a big bang.

[_SOARER]

Oh geez haha. Thanks for sharing! this gave me a giggle.
I really dont like how the new atheists set up the Science V. Religion dialectic.

Faith+Reason=Religion <3

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The matter always existed but always is defined within the limits of time and before the big bang (when the universe was in a singularity there was no passage of time).

When the universe was in its' early phase the Universe was much smaller than it it now so there was no where for the atoms to be scattered to.

[ChocoBrownieMonster]

How are electronic devices possible, how is wireless transmission possible.
That is mathematics, science, and a whole lot of brains behind it.
You dont have to fully understand something to believe it happened. It's like the supernatural, if you experience it you'll have sceptics and others calling you delusional, ill, liars etc.
The Big Bang theory, came from super-clever scientists who understand philosophy too, they observed mass at the tiniest level to understand how particles behave. I wouldn't doubt them just yet, they can even see further than pluto, which the common person wouldn't think is possible.

[ChocoBrownieMonster]

and by the way i totally believe in the theory of relativety. Sometimes i try to give up on life and suddenly it saves me. If im in trouble, someone i least expect saves me. Every person seems to have a purpose in life that they can't control, it's like destiny. I've even experienced Murphy's law which says something that can happen will happen. So, why can't order come out of chaos. Someone once said to me you can't rationalise when someone is unreasonable, it's best to ignore because they'll get what's coming to them sooner or later. That's order.

[_SOARER]

Ahhh! a very interesting take on MyTake.

Here is the thing though about the wirles transmission and electronic devices. I can experience the outcomes of those things. Just like gravity! I dont discount gravity. Because it effects me. But the big bang? the question become what created the big bang? If something created it, those things must have been created too! and if you want to create something as functional as our universe can it really come out of such a chaotic experience? and I dont think science can ever answer that! It becomes a question of philosophy then.

But that doesn't mean science is incapable, its just to say Science is not ultimate-reality :)

[ChocoBrownieMonster]

I see your point about what created everything? That can't just be science. Had to be supernatural. So I'd use the word phenomenon 😂 like the opposite of nothing occurred. What do you think?

[_SOARER]

I think that's a very art way of phrasing it for sure!

[ChocoBrownieMonster]

It kind of explains why there is so much of everything right. But if there's a god, who created him? Lol I think he was created just like us because it's part of everything.

[_SOARER]

God is a paradox, because he had to always exist. Only thing not to have been created. God is eternal.
I think thats how most religious individuals explain God as the Creator

[ChocoBrownieMonster]

Unless someone can explain how a god came to exist I can only accept he was created like everything else. My idea of God is not so much a being, but dynamic of correctness which manipulates energy to behave in a way that balances the everything so it doesn't become unstable. Id like to know why you think God wasn't created.

[_SOARER]

Because for their to be original creation, their must be an original creator. And for their to be an original creator he would have to be eternal.

[ChocoBrownieMonster]

What if everything was created as a mutation of nothing. Ie. nothing went through an evolution. When there was chaos then there was an evolution of a god complex so that chaos found a path of correctness. Like a path. People believe God is a being, I think it's a field.

[_SOARER]

But something can't come from nothing :/

[_SOARER]

With God being the exception because something, has to be eternal in that case to cause creation

[ChocoBrownieMonster]

When you consider a place of nothing, boredom is the word used to describe instability. It degrades and is unstable, therefore the moment it's weak a mutation occurs, or a leak from a dimension of everything and that everything leaks or blows up all over the nothing creating moving particles and then life. That's why there's a theory of big bang. God may not even exist, it's just our way of trying to suggest a creator. But if it exists they haven't done anything since. So, my view is the formation of planets and life was one event that took place because of instability. When things start becoming instable again it'll happen again and we may not exist again. But that's my opinion

[battonjason1976]

Exactly! It also means that Science hasn't evolved enough yet to fully grasp existence in its entirety. I theorize that as we grow in our scientific knowledge, we may arrive at the understand that our world may exist in ways reaching beyond the natural world we know today and may be more spiritual or metaphysical in nature..

[Anonymous]

I’m having my doubts about the Big Bang after reading physics books during the lockdown and I don’t blame you. Ironically science has become a system of control. Bing bang, Darwinism, Einstein, for example usually when people come out with new research to disprove them or to introduce new ideas is quickly swept under the rug, research taken, books burned or made incredibly expensive. Modern science has failed to explain everything and experts are still searching. if science is tested it has become a protected religion and if the “pillars” of their alleged foundation are challenged people lose their jobs, and blacklisted from history. I didn’t even like Bill bye, or watching repeats of Carl Sagan’s show. They never showed the math so I only take experts so seriously with a grain of salt.

[_SOARER]

Scientism is real. I also think scientism affects real science negatively

[Opinion Owner]

I agree, it’s the cult of the quantum, and scientists busy chasing after imaginary unicorn farts. The book ‘causality, electromagnetic induction and gravitation’ by Oleg Jefimenko is great by the way

[madgoat]

Science is a religion of sorts. It largely describes things in a structured way but only the experts understand the explanation in detail. We all trust that what they've told us is accurate. Sometimes their understand is revised in time, then we believe something new. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't believe, just that science has its limits based on our understanding right now.

[_SOARER]

Very reasonable, thanks for reading!
I dont want to throw out all of science, just want to think about science philosophically.

[AnnT0117]

I don't believe in the Big Bang theory. From what I read (which was awhile ago), the universe was created because it was needed and that's how the Big Bang happened. But I do believe in God. I believe He's the One who made everything. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? This question is easy for me to answer. The chicken because God made the animals first and then He told them to multiply. Just my thoughts 😁

[_SOARER]

Yep! haha I answer the Chicken and egg question the same way!
God made chickens first haha :)

[goaded]

Ignorance. tl;dr: I don't understand it, so it didn't happen.

Do you know how your car works? Down to the quantum level of a spark, or the fluid dynamics of the fuel, or the behaviour of shock absorbers and suspension?

The Big Bang theory might not be complete, but whatever displaces it must explain even more observations.

[_SOARER]

Didn't read man smh

[goaded]

I skimmed what you wrote, including "It doesn't convince me because I am not a scientist. I don't understand what those numbers actually mean and most common people don't either.", hence my 8 word summary.

My point was that you don't believe it because you don't understand it, but the basic idea is simply what you get from the observation that the universe is expanding, and if you go far enough back in time, there must have been a point where everything was in one place.

You don't have to know the details of how a car works to be able to drive one. It's not a great analogy, but I hoped you'd get my point.

[_SOARER]

I regret writing that lmao. Its what people immediately gravitate towards
Nah I got your point completely. man thanks for sharing.

I think science and philosophy need to merge!

[goaded]

They only just split up a couple of hundred years ago! I don't know, but I think it was irreconcilable differences.

It seems to me that today's philosophy is "science you can't repeat tests in".

By the way, just so you know I didn't mean to be mean, I know there's a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity.

[_SOARER]

Its fine bro, I knew this mytake would garner a lot of criticism haha
Its all love

[Ripper_E]

The Big Bang Theory is just that: a theory. Which means it has not been proven. Anyone who calls you and idiot for not believing it are just on a bandwagon. They believe anything they are told to believe.

[Agape93]

Ignorance

[_SOARER]

Thanks my friend :( haha <3
Have you ever seen order come out of chaos?

[Agape93]

Of course. Mother Babalon is the consort of chaos :)

[_SOARER]

I think we have fundamental difference in our understanding of "order" <3
Thank you for always being honest <3

[Agape93]

Yeap lol and welcome :)

[Conspiracy_Theorist]

Great take

[Anonymous]

Its a giant game.

[errorgoodnameunfound]

Yup. We are basically all Sims and G-d is the player, but he had so many sims made he outsourced it to angels, devils, and such. Just like outsourced work that we know of, the pay has gone down over the year, therefore, the quality as well. :)

[Opinion Owner]

@errorgoodnameunfound I've Never Felt So Alive. 2020 is dope.

[errorgoodnameunfound]

I'm still waiting on that cheat trophy to be activated already :)