What's your definition and which of my definition fits you most (poll)?
My definitions:
Pro-choice: Don't necessary see abortion as positive, necessarily or negative. They may think it depends from case to case, but believes it's not their business and that women should be allowed to choose by themselves.
Pro-abortion: Are also for legalization of self-determined abortions, but thinks abortions can affect the society positively.
Both pro-abortionists and pro-choicers believes it's up to the woman, but pro-abortionists sees abortion as a more positive thing. E. g. less disabled and poor people in the world because they gets aborted away.
General pro-life: Are against legalization of self-determined abortions and thinks abortions in general speaking should be illegal and is immoral. But thinks some exceptions are okay like if the mother's health and life is in danger or a child is pregnant. If a child is pregnant, the parents and other adults should be held responsible.
I don't consider people who supports abortion in rape and incest cases as general pro-life.
Total pro-life: Against legalization of any kinds of abortions.
Half pro-life: Thinks abortion is okay when it's incest or rape. May also have other exception rules like general pro-lifers. They thinks other types of abortion are immoral, but some of them thinks it exists other solutions on the problem than making it illegal by law. They've often similar views on it as cheating.
I'm Pro-choice, and it's because it's not immoral to me to rid of something that's not a actual living thing yet. Yeah it's slowly growing but until major organs and etc have developed into a working functioning process I think abortion is fine.
Now of course there should be limits, people should be more wary of protection if a baby isn't something they can afford to have at the moment. But not everything is so clean cut and shit happens. Abortions are needed sometimes and it depends on the case. And for minors, the parents aren't always responsible for what their kids did in their own time. Teens will be teens and they're stuipd sometimes. But if it's a literal child a trial in court should be held for the parents because something is wrong.
The thing is that once a sperm and egg cell fuse, they form a zygote, which is instantly a separate biological individual to the mother and father, even though its survival is basically depending on the woman. Other than that I agree with your opinion.
Based on your definitions, I'm pro abortion. But, only up to a certain point, the first trimester. After that, I become more half pro life. I guess after the second trimester, I think it should be reserved for emergencies.
Before the 2nd trimester, I don't care if you're aborting it for financial reasons, you had a train ran on you without protection (btw thats gross in all aspects), you aren't ready for kids, etc. I find it odd that people are more against women aborting if she had 1. multiple abortions - I mean, if she's having many abortions, she clearly doesn't want kids. Why would you want to impose a child on her when she obviously doesn't want it. 2. if she didn't use birth control, I mean again, she's aborting because she doesn't want the baby. Yes, she should be smarter with her body next time, but why force kids on people who dont want them?
I'm a general pro-life and I'm not against people not wanting having children, but I thinks they should use contraception, abstain from sex or simply not penetrate if they don't want it. If they still gets pregnant, they should at least put the child up for adoption if they don't want it. Not abort it. That's irresponsible. As an abortion-survivor I thinks it's important people take care. I don't have less right to live than you or anyone else.
You're definitive pro-abortion, not half pro-life. Regardless if it's the first, second or third trimester - as long you're supporting this, you can't be pro-life.
Birth control can fail. Also, why should women be reduced to a brood mare or human incubator. Being pregnant is difficult and takes a toll on their body. Not to mention that nearly every woman says giving birth is one of the most painful experiences, that doesn't sound like a great idea to just "put it up for adoption" after not even wanting the damn thing in the first place.
I'm going by your definitions. After the first trimester, the fetus can feel and is more responsive, so I don't think abortion should be legal unless it's an emergency. It should be severely restricted then and only then.
I didn't say you don't have a right to life, you're born now. But that's because you're not in someone else's body. If you were, and weren't even sentient yet, then it's up to the host to decide what they want to do with their parasite. And yes, I was a parasite to my mom too.
1. Abstain from sex. 2. Using contraception. 3. Having a sterilized boyfriend.
4. Having a sterilized boyfriend and using contraception. If the woman is on the pill, the man use a condom and he's sterilized, it's a very low chance of getting pregnant.
If people simply decides someone aren't humans, it's easier to both end their lives and treat them as inferior to us. That's what humans have done through history.
@curiousway a man can't really speak on the behalf of what a woman does with her body because men dont understand what we go through. Birth control and condoms are not 100%. also , what if the girl does want to get pregnant but ends up with a child that's a vegetable? its a no I refuse to keep a child like that just to milk the government of resources
1. Birth control can fail. I'm not against advocating birth control, I actually think nearly everyone should be on it. But not everyone is, it's expensive and it affects our bodies. Sure it isn't as expensive as having a child, but it still costs money. Which is why I love PP, I'm on birth control for free since I qualify for low income, it's not paid out by the government, it's donations. Also, abortion is a form of birth control.
2. Abstain from sex, in an ideal world, we would. Just like in an ideal world criminals would stop, but we live in a realistic world, and that won't happen since sex feels really good.
3. Not many men want to be sterilized in their 20s and 30s, at least not until they've had kids yet. My boyfriend and I plan to get sterilized when we're done having kids, but for now, on Nexplanon.
Regardless, I'm still pro abortion in the 1st trimester, after that, it should be restricted in my opinion.
@SouthernGirl23, I don't think our gender should determine if we've a say in this or not. This is not a gendered issue, but a moral one. As an abortion-survivor myself I've a say and the right to voice my opinion. I'm allowed to advocate for me and other adoptees right to live - and saying that adoption is also an option. I would be against abortion regardless of which sex could get pregnant.
Abortion isn't a birth control and shouldn't be treated as such. Condoms and pills are birth controls. Abortion is often used by people who are too selfish to take responsibility for their own actions. Birth controls prevents impregnation happening, but abortion happens when a woman already is pregnant with a child in her own womb.
@curious, yes, it is a gendered issue. The day a bio male can carry a baby, then he can have a definitive say whether it should be kept or not. Don't get it twisted, I'm not saying that the man's word has no value in the decision, especially if it's his sperm that is in there, but ultimately, it is up to the woman since the damn thing is going to be intruding in her body. I do advocate for having sex with trusted individuals so it doesn't come down to your wishes vs hers. She has a right to her body in my opinion. Talk to pregnant women, many will tell you it takes a fucking toll on them, lots of preggo chicks even have to stop working because it ain't easy. Men will never have to experience that, so it's not their issue when it comes down to the determining factor. It is birth control, because if you abort, you won't have a birth, which is thus controlling a birth aka birth control. I don't think it should be the first or only form, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be legal.
Let's say only one gender was capable to do violence, and the other one wasn't. Would violence suddenly be acceptable? I don't think it should be. Same thing applies to denying someone the right to live. Regardless if it's a man or a woman - it shouldn't matter. What's matter is the value of a human being's life. Regardless if it was a man or a woman who got pregnant, it's still all about a child with it's own body. They can't claim they can do it just because it's their bodies - since it's not. The child has it's own DNA, body and identity.
"but I thinks they should use contraception, abstain from sex or simply not penetrate if they don't want it." None of which are 100% effective. So, it's not being childless that you have an issue with, but how they remain so? Do you want so much control over other people's lives that you would dictate how much they risk to have sex?-
@curious go have a baby then? go start your period, go buy tampons, and birth control. then use it. go get a pap smear. since "gender"doesnt determine anything. Until u can't do those things stfu
@SouthernGirl23, I don't think name calling is necessary here. I thinks the right to live is a basic human right and that no one should be allowed to deny anyone that right. How we should control theft, scamming and other criminal actions - we should also have laws regulating these things to protect people's lives. No man or woman should be allowed to decide who has and hasn't the right to live.
@curiousnorway 'abortion survivor'? If my mother had aborted, I'd NEVER have known it. Just like my daughter in law's fetus: she had a miscarriage at 3 months, now 3 years ago on Dec 28. That fetus just CAN NOT know it happened. And every time you dump a load of cum in a Kleenex, nobody can tell you later 'I could have lived' A sperm or a fetus are not conscient, don't feel it.
@jacquesvol Survived getting an abortion, not being aborted, seems the more likely meaning. Although, a truly late-term abortion COULD result in a viable fetus; medicine is very good these days...
@jacquesvol, not every murder victims are very conscious or aware either since a killing can happen very quickly. Same thing applies to none-conscious individuals in coma if someone turned off the life-support.
@taleswapper An embryon can be kept alive without too much problems from the 5th or 6th month. Christian researchers COULD work to develop a method to salvage the fecundated egg of a girl who wants an abortion , to nurture it in a test tube until it's viable, and once they have a baby, that way, give it up for adoption. But I didn't hear that suggestion yet. Pro life is mainly a pro birth movement which wants to punish girls for having sex.
@jacquesvol, so if someone protests or not is what determine if someone are worthy living or not? Sounds pretty scary and messed up.
But I do support the test tube thing. If it works, it would be a more humane option. The child don't have to die and the mother can take it out from her womb - everyone happy.
@jacquesvol "But I didn't hear that suggestion yet." Maybe not in this thread, but it's been floated many times. You're talking about an artificial womb. Lots of folks working on that; not just Christians.
"Pro-life is mainly a pro-birth movement which wants to punish girls for having sex." Agreed. Which is an insane approach to the issue...
@jacquesvol "If tomorrow a cop mistakes me for a criminal and shoots me in the head, I'm dead too. But my family will protest." Your family may protest, but they won't succeed in passing a law disarming cops.
I'm very much Pro-Choice. I believe in a woman's right to choose what is best for her. I'm not pro-abortion as in using abortion as a means of contraception. To me, pro-life = Pro-Birth. Where a woman's choice is taken away from her regardless of her circumstances, how she got pregnant, and in the event of FFA. Pro-Birth reduces the status of a woman to that of a brood mare, or a machine, an incubator. It demeans women.
For me pro-choice is reducing the status of the child. It's not seen as a human being anymore and not worthy enough to live. People can decide if it should be allowed to live or not and that's more property like than a human being. The child's right to live is taken away, but a woman can choose to have sex, use contraception etc. The child didn't have any choices.
So being pro-choice is also problematic, more than "pro-birth" or pro-the right to live.
There's no child until it's born. Most abortions take place in the first trimester. At that stage it is a fetus, not a baby, not a child. I abhor the Pro-Birthers and their fascist intent for all pregnant women.
I'm pro-choice. My first wife died because she DIDN'T get an abortion at the recommendation of her doctor. Women have miscarriages (spontaneous abortions) quite a lot, so it can't be argued that it's unnatural. And the vast majority of so-called "pro-lifers" are actually anti-sex and see pregnancy as a punishment.
@jacquesvol Okay, this is a straw man argument. Unless you are the entirety of either the Tea Party on the Conservative Caucus, please do not put words in their mouths.
It's a difference between one survive or two dies cases - where it's a choice between saving one or let both die than the self-determined abortions where the woman is perfectly healthy and fine, but still undergoes an abortion because she doesn't want the child. In most cases it's healthy people who had consenting sex and didn't need to undergo an abortion. But because they choose to have sex, they became pregnant.
Ahh. the "pregnancy as punishment for sex" crowd. The problem with this viewpoint is twofold. One, the choice is never binary. Women don't get abortions on a whim. They're not thinking to themselves "Today I'll have wild sex with someone inappropriate, and if I get pregnant, no worries; I can have an abortion!" Nor is the woman's physical health the only factor. And just how did you reach the conclusion that the majority of procedures performed were NOT medically related?
People have sex all the time without getting pregnant. And raising a child is a life-long commitment, not something you should do just as a consequence of having sex. "Oh, well; the sex was good; I guess that means I should be a parent!" is the consequence of your thinking.
@jacquesvol Those aren't citations, Jaques. They're just names. Certainly, neither the National Review and Mr. Williams don't speak for the Tea Party as a whole, nor for Conservative Caucus.
@jacquesvol Interesting. When asked for a source for your assertion, you gave an article about your source, rather than actually quoting your source. I think I see the problem with your thinking.
I don't know about others but pro-life is pro-life. Pro-life means that I am pro life. Life is valuable. Pregnancy, wanted or unwanted, is formation of a new life, and it is cruel to abort it.
When it comes to rape or accident. I think that the mentality of justifying abortion of such a baby is equivalent to labeling a child as illegitimate and justifying abandoning him or her, it's 2018 but our attitude towards 'illegitimate' lives did not change. The father did something wrong, so you're gonna do another wrong thing? My husband cheated on me so I'm gonna slaughter my 5 year old son and throw his bloody corpse in the river because he resembles that cheater so closely in appearance. Excellent. The value of a baby decreases by how he or she came into existence? Uhm excuse me?
However, earlier I read news of women dying cause they had some kind of illness for which abortion was needed but they didn't get it because of people being so pro-life, and then the mother suffered a lot. Now THAT is wrong.
Abortion should be done in case of necessity, because then it becomes a necessity duh. If not aborting can cause an illness, worsen an existing illness or even cause death for the mother, baby or both then I see no reason why abortion should not be done.
I mean, are you even pro-life (stressing on LIFE) if you think it more important to let a baby be pushed out of a vagina for the sake of it, even if it is at the cost of another life?
Now don't some at me and talk about finances and things like 'what if it in incest/rape/whatever' honey almost ALL abortions are of babies formed by consensual sex. If you think you can't afford a child or think that you can get away with birth control being completely unaware that accidents still happen, then please don't get laid.
You can't compare a fully functioning human to a fetus... Rape is a traumatic event. You're just making her remember it for the rest of her life by forcing her into an unwanted pregnancy. The only case where I disagree with abortion is when the woman is irresponsible and doesn't use contraception or she can't makeup her mind about wanting a baby. They should think before, not after
So it's the mother... you are putting her through a lot of extra pain just for a fetus that isn't even conscious... don't you get the point. I agree it is a life and people shouldn't have abortions instead of using contraception. But thinking a raped woman should have the rapist's child is wrong from all points of view.
Yes, and it's not fully a child... it isn't conscious yet... Is it better to prolong a woman's trauma by putting her through an unwanted pregnancy, a painful birth ehich she never wanter and ask her to take care of the child of the rapist so that she will remember the event for the rest of her life? Is it better to being into the world a child with no father? And a mother who didn't want him/her? Seriously. Would you want this for yourself and your kid if you'd get raped?
A potential life is just a potential life. It’s only as valuable as you want it to be. Why? Because the fetus requires your body. Developing babies in the wombs are just parasites. And a woman should have the right to choose what happens with her body.
Ellie, but some women actually skip contraception and just resort to abortions... don't tell me that it isn't wrong. It's half premeditated murder to me. They chose to have that parasite...
@Ellie-V But she can choose right? Isn't it better the mother gets rid of her then let herself and her daughter face humiliation from family and society for their entire lives?
Yes. The general mentality of female infanticide is blatantly wrong with only favoritism and outdated patriarchal ideals to back it up. However, it still may be best for the individual mom to look out for her SURVIVAL.
I'm pro choice. It's a woman's body and it's up to her to choose what she wants to do with it. It's also her life that gets changed if she HAS the baby. Men will, sometimes, just pick up and leave and she still has to take care of the baby, or if the guy that knocked her up was only there TO knock her up and didn't CARE if she had the kid, she's also taking care of the kid solo! Likewise, if he's not even gonna be there after he screws her, it's completely her choice, but if he DOES decide to stay with her, baby or not, and she gets pregnant by him, then the choice should be up to both of them. However, there ARE SOME women that will leave the GUY, or want nothing to do with him after they fuck him, but she might end up getting pregnant from him and choose to have the baby, even though she has no intention of taking care of it!! She'll go so far as to have the kid, then go drop it on HIS doorstep!! THAT is WRONG!!! Maybe he DID get her pregnant but, as she COMPLETELY left the decision out of his hands and had the kid, that's HER choice and he shouldn't be FORCED to become an instant daddy because SHE made a bad choice and didn't even bother to include HIM in the decision!! SHE chose to have the kid, so it's up to HER to take care of it!!
I am for the most part pro choice.. Understanding that most women with a conscious and a heart would not get an abortion unless they would absolutely need one. There are some elements of the pro choice movement which i absolutely hate though.. These are the Feminist women that believe that they should have the power to abort their child clear up until the baby is completely out of her body... Meaning if the head is popping out and she wants to abort she can.. Which is disgusting and i see it as an excuse to murder viable children. There are even some elements of pro choice (again feminists are the one i am speaking of here) that believe that she should have the right to abort her child clear up until the last minute before the child's 18th birthday. Granted its a very small minority but its still sickening. Some of these women use abortion as a weapon.. Meaning she will use it to hurt the father.. One of my best Friends went through this. He was with a woman, They got pregnant. She left him because she found someone that made more money. She aborted their child, Then she rubbed his nose in it.. He committed suicide because of it.. I see a woman that would choose to abort for any reason beyond medical or rape or incest, heartless and soulless.
My vote on this is medical necessity, and in instances of rape, and incest only.. Not "oops i made a mistake and i dont want to be a mother" Equal rights equal responsibilities.
Anybody who is against life opportunities is a wuss. For this even to be an issue with liberals is vile to the core. The it's my body, my right is a satanic approach. Anybody with a decent brain knows that the baby is not just part of your body but is another body living inside of you who depends upon you to do your job as a mother. The I was raped so I shouldn't be held accountable for protecting my rapist's baby is satanic approach also. Nobody should be punished for the sins of their father. It's your job as a mother to provide for your baby whether you had a say in the creation of the baby or not. Men are mature enough not to use that excuse in situations where he has no say in certain things so women should be also.
Since when does location or developmental stage give women the right to put an end to life?
If your child who is 4 was living in Turkey or Haiti, is it okay to kill them but not in USA or Canada? No. If your child is advanced in development more than a 3 month old, is it wrong to kill them but less developed? No.
I pretty much agree with your definitions. I’m pro choice. I don’t agree with abortions but it’s not up to me to stop someone else from having one. And making abortion illegal is going to do more harm than good. Those women who cannot afford to travel to have an out of state abortion will do it themselves or go to some black market “doctor” and get themselves killed. But I don’t think pro lifers would care much about that part. So if they get what they want, it probably won’t matter anyway.
pro-abortion. 1. Women's right on their bodies. 2. (I'm sorry but..) It's economically positive for the society. Generally, it is low class people who are in need of abortion, however, they can't do the abortion because of many reasons. In order to abridge the portion of them and to make the society more sophisticated and wealthy, pro-abortion should be effective.
@Estaroze I know a $100k a year lady who needed an abortion. Not low class thus. There are a multitude of reasons for women to want to stop a pregnancy.
Of course there are many people who need abortion, but it's mainly low class people, and especially it's the low class people who can't afford abortion when the law doesn't support abortion.
By your definition I count as pro choice, although I must add that I am for tight regulations around the issue and assigning a minimum waiting period of some time. Not necessarily for the benefit of the unborn, but to that the expecting mother does not make any quick decisions, as it does carry gravitas.
@6942Dom i understand, i never mentioned all men. i merely pointed out that only men tended to support anti-abortion which does not insinuate in any way the notion that ALL men are pro life.
I actually like these definitions. They seem kind of objective. I like that. I kinda assume that there was going to be a false dichotomy here. "If your pro life it means you hate puppies"
I think you should publically shame abortion to stigmatize people from doing it frivolously and legalize it to avoid being unable to perform abortions when it's absolutely neccessary.
In Canada pot smoking is barely illegal. Only stupid people can't smoke pot legally. It looks like you can't but you can. It separates the responsible from the irresponsible.
I am Pro-Choice. I’ve had clients that got pregnant and didn’t want to tell or know what to do... I don’t say go get an abortion I mention each option abortion, adoption, and keeping... with the pros and cons you decide.
Abortion should be illegal accept in the case of rape or sexual assault or medical conditions. Other wise use protection or plan B I don't get what's so difficult in that.
That’s ok what you think it’s your decision. My personal decision and also in my career field it’s unethical to impose my idea onto someone it is ultimately their decision. I offer guidance, non-judgement, and support.
"Pro-life" is the stance that life begins at conception and thus abortion should be legal under no circumstances whatsoever.
"Pro-abortion" is the stance that life begins at birth, and abortion should be legal at any and all stages. It is often paired with the far left view that abortion, like any other health service (in their opinion), should be provided via government-owned programs that are tax-funded.
"Pro-choice" is the stance that life begins somewhere between conception and birth, and advocate for according legislation, as well as abortion being legal under certain extreme circumstances.
I consider sperm-in-egg a 'life.' You've created something so amazing. And to end it so soon, it's such a shame. I know that contraception doesn't always work, but when used right, it almost always does. If you've had multiple abortions, you need to have your tubes tied. It's not fair.
However, I went half-pro. As I dont think abortion should be illegal. The world is massively overpopulated and a lot of people aren't fit to raise a happy, decent person.
I personally wouldn't have an abortion unless the baby wasn't healthy. But can see why the victim of rape/underage sex, or someone with an addiction, may want to abort.
"I consider sperm-in-egg a 'life.' Opinion doesn't enter into it. It IS a life. It's a unique member of the species h. sapiens. But it's also a parasitic life, feeding exclusively on the host, to that host's detriment. THAT is the reality of it.
"You've created something so amazing. And to end it so soon, it's such a shame." "Created" is a misnomer; "amazing" and "shame" are subjective emotional states, not rational ones.
"I know that contraception doesn't always work, but when used right, it almost always does" is false. The failure rate is about 10% which is ridiculous. If one car out of 10 crashed, causing the occupants to need to spend thousands per annum in medical bills for the next 20 years, we'd ban them. But if 100 women go on the Pill, nine can expect to get pregnant in any one year. (See jaquesvol's citation above). So, not so reliable...
nobody wants to use protection every time they have sex, and its never a 100% guarantee. this argument is lame and hypocritical as if you pro-life people actually give a shit about reproduction when we have something called pleasure
It's both irresponsible and selfish to not use contraception. Modern contraception aren't that hard to use and if you really don't want children, you should use them. If you're afraid of one of them would fail, you can use several. E. g. the pill and the condom. As an abortion-survivor I'm fed up with people not wanting to take responsibility. Is your pleasure more important than people's right to live?
our species is so ugly and deserves to be annihilated, its funny how people care soooooooooooo much about unborn kids that aren't even aware of themselves yet, but y’all support the exploitation of children in sweatshops by buying cheap clothes, once the kid is born nobody gives a fuck anymore
This entire debate comes down to when the fetus is considered a human being. The moment it is, it's considered murder. And in the eyes of most people the ethical question between murder and self-realisation is pretty one-sided.
The question what constitutes life and being a human is quite a bit more tricky. The argument "It's just a clump of cells" doesn't hold up, though. Eventually we are all a clumb of cells. Neither does the "a human life begins with consciousness". By that logic we consider coma-patients not human, either. So do we not consider toddlers human.
And this is where it gets really difficult. What then constitutes as a human life? Why does it matter if it's a 1 month old fetus or a 10 years old child as both are growing up to become adult humans?
No. it has nothing to do with "when the fetus is a human being". The unborn is a human being (a member of the species homo sapiens) from conception. The question is, and always has been, should we require women to be predated upon for the sake of them? A fetus does immediate, measurable harm to the mother from implantation to birth and beyond. for those women willing to put up with that, jolly good. But for us to turn the rest into involuntary sacrifices is monstrous. Calling it "murder" just means you don't know what the word means.
I'll be part of that other segment I think. I don't have a womb. I don't have ovaries. I don't think I'm therefore qualified to pass judgement on something that doesn't relate to me.
I take the same stance on this issue like I do on gay marriage and religion in general - I refuse to form an opinion. It's a thing that exists that will never involve me, so why bother getting all opinionated on it?
Pro choice depending on the circumstances. I've seen parents with kids who were born vegatables just can't walk, talk, eat just brain dead but they keep these kids in order to get money from the government or religious reasons.
Pro-choice: Don't necessary see abortion as positive, necessarily or negative. They may think it depends from case to case, but believes it's not their business and that women should be allowed to choose by themselves.
I'll lead with this. The child is innocent, there is no reason it should die or not be cared for.
The rapist (male/female) should be punished. I believe we can find a way to gift these unwanted children to people that want them. If a human can survive in a tin can for several months on the way to the moon, we can figure this out.
I am Total Prolife. Once a sperm fertilizes an egg, it forms a brand new organism that has it's very own DNA. It is not an inanimate object like a rock. It will develop in the mother's body until it is time to be born. The humanity of a person is not dictated by whether or not that person is convenient to others. Whenever people seek t redefine humanity, it ends in disaster. The Europeans who colonized North America thought that Native Americans and Africans were sub-human. Adolf Hitler thought that Jews were sub-human. Human life should be protected in all of its forms.
I would never date a girl who supports abortion in any capacity. Life is to be protected from conception until natural death (and yes, that means I also oppose euthanasia and capital punishment). No exceptions.
Im pro choice because its not my buisiness to tell someone to have a child or not , because Im not the one who will pay for that baby bills. Its their life.. if people would mind their buisiness life would be easier.
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