Should we promote "chivalry" and being "ladylike," or should we just promote being polite?

[SpiderManFan2002]

Inspired by a question @ultimega just asked: Have any of you heard this rule before?

But seriously! What's the point in telling boys to be "chivalrous" and girls to behave "like a lady" when instead we could just cut the crap and tell everyone to be polite?

Like if a dude opens a door for me, that's cool, I'll say thanks but I'm not going to expect him to open a door for me, or wait for him when he's miles behind just so he can open a door for me- and chances are if he's behind me, and I'm in front then I'll hold the door open for him, not because I'm trying to make a feminist statement and he's not opening the door to be chivalrous for me- we're both just being polite.

And then as for all this "lady-like" stuff, I hear dumb things like that rule above, because firstly that's just rude not to finish your plate and it's wasteful too. Secondly, I hear things like: "don't chew with your mouth open, it's not ladylike" but that's just stupid to say, because it's rude and off putting for a girl or a guy to chew with their mouth open. Again, if I chew with my mouth closed I'm not trying to be ladylike and if a dude chews with his mouth closed he's not trying to be "feminized" or whatever, we're both just being polite.

Honestly, if I have a son or a daughter I'm not going to fill their heads with those labels, when I can tell them both to just be polite, decent human beings.

So do you think we should promote chivalry to boys and being ladylike to girls or do you think we should just promote being polite to both boys and girls? And why?

We should teach boys to be "chivalrous" and girls to be "ladylike."

We should teach both girls and boys to just be polite.

[Oram52]

Politeness is general behaviour, its common to treat everyone in this specific manner. Chivalry and ladylike are specific characteristics correlated with gender.

Being chivalrous is not just being polite but treating your partner as someone special, and treating the opposite sex as a gentleman. For example carrying heavy things. Women are not as strong as men so a gentleman should aid a lady and help her carry that heavy load. I would carry my girlfriends bags if they are heavy, pulling chair for her, giving up my coat when its cold. Its not merely politeness but chivalrous, a way gentleman acts and treats his special lady.

Being a lady is not merely being polite, its a way of presenting herself. Being poised, having class, way she behaves and carries herself. Its gender specific characteristics and not just politeness. French women for example. Being a lady does not mean being submissive or weak.

Chivalrous behaviour is seen as more masculine and being a ladylike makes women more feminine. Many men and women still find chivalry and being ladylike attractive.

In one research they were attempting to study "benevolent sexism"(Chivalry). So they made a list of chivalrous characteristics and behaviours women find attractive in men. They also had option to identify as a feminist. Result of that study showed even feminists found chivalrous behaviour attractive in opposite sex. If you call it chivalry feminists and some women would say no, yet remove the label women still find chivalry attractive including feminists. Romance novels are still full of chivalry.

Same way of course men find ladylike behaviour more attractive, its more feminine, they way they carry themselves makes them more appealing. You can be strong, independent, ambitious and still be feminine & ladylike.

Chivalry is dying that's for sure, even if majority of women are complaining and want men to be more chivalrous. Which also means women start being more ladylike. So should we be promoting chivalry is up to women, like I said chivalry is dying.

[SpiderManFan2002]

" For example carrying heavy things. Women are not as strong as men so a gentleman should aid a lady and help her carry that heavy load."

I don't fully disagree, on average men are physically stronger than women that's a fact. But just because we're not as strong as you doesn't mean we can't carry heavy things. If I need help, and a guy offers it to me, I'll gladly take it, but if a girl also offers to help me, I'll also take her help. It's not about him "coming to my aid" because he's a big strong guy who needs to help me, it's just the fact I need help, and I'm willing to take anyone's help I don't care if you're a guy or girl.

And equally, let's say I see a dude carrying a huge pile of books or something and he is struggling- I'm not going to walk past him, and think "he's a guy, he should be able to carry that" and think that I'm entitled not to help him, instead I'll go up to him ask if he needs my help, if he says "yes" I'll take what I can carry, and if he says no I'll leave him be.

"I would carry my girlfriends bags if they are heavy, pulling chair for her, giving up my coat when its cold. Its not merely politeness but chivalrous, a way gentleman acts and treats his special lady."
That's cool, you do you. But one thing that annoys me about the whole concept of chivalry is some guys feel they *must* do this, like sometimes, I've been okay carrying things on my own- but guys have insisted on helping, as if I can't do it by myself, and it comes across as more condescending if anything. Fair enough, ask me once, that's being polite and if I say "yes" help me, if I say "no" don't insist that I need help when I've just told you I'm fine on my own.

Pulling the chair is polite, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't pull the chair out of politeness either.

[SpiderManFan2002]

And the whole "giving up his coat" thing, well unless he's my height or smaller I doubt anything of mine would fit him, most guys are taller than me and wider than me lol- and if I'm cold and he's not, I don't mind him giving his jacket to me, again, in my eyes just a polite gesture. But I don't expect that jacket off of him, especially if it genuinely is cold outside and he's got something like a t-shirt on underneath, and because of "chivalry" he gives me his jacket and now he's suffering when he really doesn't need to be. Chances are, if it's cold outside I'll bring my own jacket anyway.

"Chivalrous behaviour is seen as more masculine and being a ladylike makes women more feminine."
See, I hate these labels. What's masculine about opening a door for someone or helping someone carry some stuff? It's not masculine it's just basic manners. If I was close the door on someone because I'm a girl, and I believe it's a "man's job" then that makes me an asshole. Or if I'm going to ignore some dude or girl who needs help carrying some books or something I am able to lift because I believe "a man should be able to carry their things" or "a man should come to her aid" then that makes me an asshole as well. The way I see it, if someone needs your help, you give it to them.

Equally, if a dude is going to expect a girl to chew with her mouth closed because it's "ladylike" but then not do so himself because it's "behaving like a lady" then I'm sorry but he's an asshole. I don't want to see mushed up food in a girl or guy's mouth so what's feminine about chewing with your mouth closed? Or I've also seen "cleanliness" being referred to as "ladylike" but how is cleanliness feminine at all? If you're a girl or guy and you're not clean, it's gross either way, so why do we slap a label like "ladylike" on it and suggest it only applies to women?

"Its gender specific characteristics and not just politeness."
So what are these specific gender characteristics?

[Username737]

Your mom did good

[dantetheexplorer]

I don't see the point of "chivalry" - why not just treat every single person with respect and kindness? I don't care what you have between your legs - I will accord you the proper respect and kindness another human being should be minimally expect to receive. For example, I don't care if it's a woman or man struggling with the door - if you're struggling with the door, I'll help you. Doesn't matter whether you're a man, woman, a kid, a grandpa, grandma, or a Martian - I'll walk over and help you out.

I mean, what is someone who is steeped in "chivalry" supposed to do? Help a woman who has difficulty with something or other, but go completely blank or not bother if it's a man? Seems pretty silly and one-sided to me. Just be a decent human being and help people out, regardless of age, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc.

I personally think the world would be a better place if we just instilled decency in everyone. Doesn't matter what biological hardware you have, just treat everyone with respect and decency, and always remember to think about how your actions may affect others (not just yourself). In my opinion, how advanced a society is can be measured with that last one: being able to see how your actions may inconvenience or endanger others. Being aware that your actions may have repercussions beyond yourself.

[Alpha09]

Being polite and considerate is far more productive. It cuts out those extra expectations that some people have of the opposite sex, that honestly make no sense to me. Why should a man be expected to help me fix my tire just cuz he's a man? First of all women need to learn that shit to begin with because if Kyle isn't around to help then your fucked. And why can't I open doors for a guy, or have a "man's job?" All this separation and labeling is destructive. Obviously there are things that men can do more efficiently, infantry for example. But a few women can because they meet the qualifications. Not many. But a few. Some men like to cook, and be in a kitchen while thier wives are the sole breadwinnners. As long as they are happy and give 100% percent to each other in the relationship what is the problem. Gender roles work for some and don't work for others. Being polite and treating people with respect regardless of gender, helping others if they need it and just giving a basic fuck in general is far more important then gender roles and tradition. There's a time and place for that if it is what works for those involved but it should never be pushed. We have progressed from that as a society. We now get to choose.

[btbc92]

Chivalry and being lady like IS being polite and tea hing politeness. Telling a person to be polite is not the same thing as showing and teaching the same thing. Lots of people don't understand the meaning of the word of being polite. Just like a lot of people don't know the meaning of the to of the word being kind. We are just talked to be nice. And this is why a lot of people are not held to accountability because they haven't been taught. It is expected to be nice, but lots of people are nice to me because they don't want to not just because they need to. But kindness and being polite or traits not everybody everybody. Being chivalrous and polite fourth of June that no matter what you feel, no matter what you think, you are still to be kind and polite to others. It is however what you choose to do with it. I choose to be ladylike because I know that's what I'm called to do as a woman. If other one is choose not to do it that is their business. But I care about how I choose to be seen. And it made me to become a better woman. And respect men.

[MzAsh]

Just being polite. That’s exactly how I see it.

[SpiderManFan2002]

Coolio :)

[torgor67]

Polite should be a given to me as if we have to promote politeness then it would get in the way of promoting other stuff. Chivalry is good and is a admirable trait which can be used very good although many men can act that way just to get women's attention and not actually care about being chivalrous rather actually being secretly selfish. Ladylike is a bit more debatable but to me I love a woman who is ladylike but not if it used for selfish ways such as using it for attention or riches and stuff. But interesting question!

[SpiderManFan2002]

Thanks for the response :)

1. What "other stuff" would it be getting in the way of and how?

2. I do agree, chivalry can be a good thing, but it can too easily become annoying, as can being "ladylike" for both genders. My problem is when you start labeling things like: "this is a chivalrous" thing to do and this is a "ladylike" thing to do, it's like you're automatically suggesting that the other gender shouldn't do this, like opening doors, or chewing with your mouth closed- when really both are just polite things to do, and it's inconsiderate to not to do them, and actually becomes you rude if your excuse because "girls don't do that, it's chivalrous" or "boys don't do that it's ladylike." We should help people regardless.

[torgor67]

Well in terms of the stuff it would be such as mature behaviour or how to handle dangerous situations which can also provide politeness with them so its like a double package as say if you were handling maturity then you could be tackling many different things at once such as politeness, organisation and health among may others. This is why teaching politeness while not bad could be done in many different ways and it should grow from the experiences you have rather than from people telling you all the time. That goes for how as well since its such a specific thing it can easily be bunched up with say being an adult as that way you can tackle many topics at once. In terms of the chivalry thing I agree that if you make assumptions then its not good but as long as it doesn't grow into an obsession as in you constantly seek out to ridicule people for not being chivalrous which is annoying. So as long as its well maintained is when those attributes shine the brightest and thanks for the questions!

[Drowningkingfish]

Chivalry and etiquette are gender role placeholders than somewhat segregate both roles from being equal and cause a stir of movements from each side because one side feel oppressed and the other takes advantage of their chivalry. Politeness is broad behavior that goes for anyone regardless of gender. So I'm for politeness.

[SpiderManFan2002]

I mean I agree with you. Both things can work for/against each gender, which can lead to the feeling of oppression. Another reason I am also for politeness. :)

[Nmalinova]

Oh god I'm sure my comment will probably not be appreciated by many people, but I do think chivalry and femininity is important... I also agree that anyone should open the door for anyone don't get me wrong, but there are things that separate the teo genders! And it still is important to value these difference! It is nice to have men help with heavy duty things in the same way that men will appreciate the emotional support from women! It doesn't mean that women cannot carry heavy things... one dors not exclude the other, but why not optimize the effectiveness of each gender... 😊 just my opinion!

[Inbox]

@Nmalinova You're one of the few who can see through all this gender wars BS. Good for you!

[Yads_Is_Back]

Politeness should be a given for everybody.

Men who are chivalrous and women who are ladylike are better than common good - yes, BETTER.

Because... being proud of being your gender and respecting it is not asking anyone to be something they’re not. It’s the same with being polite. Anybody can say, “I’m not a polite person and shouldn’t have to be” just as easily as they could say it about being chivalrous or ladylike.

Respect to people in general is a given, but respect to each individual is earned, and therefore a chivalrous gentleman and a ladylike woman usually generally get more respect when people know they are that way.

Just being polite? Welcome to being a baby lol That’s a given, and not so many people nowadays are actually ladylike or chivalrous. It’s too much to ask of them, just like not killing people and keeping legs closed is too much.

[Yads_Is_Back]

As for my kids, they would stand out for the better and not just be polite but also be proud of who they are and to treat everyone the best they can as well as show respect to both genders.
I would teach my kids chivalry and ladylike behavior.

[Knighted2170]

I would say we promote being ourselves. Just be authentic with each other.
Don't we have enough rules in this world already?
We just did a show on "rules for women on dating." They were totally stupid but "guaranteed" a husband if women followed all of them.
There's social "rules" for men. There's social "rules" for women. Rules for being professional. Rules for dating. Rules for pretty much everything.
Yes, we need some for a civilized society. But, we have gotten to a point where many do not know who they are anymore. They are different people depending on where they are.
Let's drop the acts and just be our authentic selves.

[SpiderManFan2002]

Exactly.

Rules aren't a bad thing, and of course we need them to an extent- but we can't have rules for absolutely everything or that will limit individuality. But at the same time, we do need rules for structure because if we didn't have rules society would be a mess.

But it's about getting the appropriate balance I suppose.

[sejla]

In Texas men and boys down to 3 open store, etc doors for women. It’s something they are taught from an early age. I don’t remember this happening as much up north even when I was struggling with something heavy but back in the day women took offense to men opening doors for them so a lot of men stopped.

I think I’d go with mutual courtesy.

Post note:
I held open a door for a man older than myself as he slowly walked up to the door and he seem to feel i dinged his manhood a bit by what he said to me. In another case I was offered help by a man and “rejected “ the help which in turn I got a bit of a salty remark back. I told him I just needed the workout and he mellowed out after that.

[blank_expression]

Nah, just dye your hair pink, or bleach it, cut it short, get lots of pierces and tats, and just chant ” I don’t need a man, men are toxic, blah, blah.” That is all we really understand anymore. It is the most effect modern form of communication—middle finger enhances it.

“…we could just cut the crap and tell everyone to be polite” sure, that is the forced version under Marx.

As we become more Marxist, we become more machine like and none of what you are analyzing here will even exist. Over the past say, 10 years I have really noticed the friendly types vanish and are replaced with the modern robot humans. Everyone has seemed to have much of his or her personalities extinguished.

[AlienParasite]

Beign polite. I remember that when a kid I have a book called "good manners" that was from my uncle. He had 3 boys. In my home we were two girls. That book taught basic polite rules that are genderless, and I feel it's more important than chivalry or beign lady like.

Honestly, I felt identified with your door example. It comes as natural to me to hold the door when someone is going to enter behind me regardless of gender. On the other side, I once had a boss that forced me wait for him to open the door for me. Came as a bit creepy and awkard. Every second I had to wait for him felt stupid, ridiculous and uncomfortable... besides it's so inefficient! I could open the door myself in less time and he wouldn't have to stand up from his seat!

[kaylaS91]

I think telling men to be more 'chivalrous' or women to be more 'lady like' is ridiculous and should be left in the past.

For one, EVERYONE should be polite. That has nothing to do with gender. It's simply human decency. I hold the door open for everyone as I'm passing through, regardless of age/gender, and semi-expect the same in return. Regarding things like chewing with your mouth open or sitting with your legs spread widely apart- neither of those are polite for either gender to do. NGL but I have gotten in many heated discussions about 'manspreading' and how offputting, almost rude, I find it when a guy sits like that when he's opposite me. Which my boyfriend kinda countered, saying it's fine for guys to do it because their balls need to 'breathe'. I obviously can't say that's 100% untrue but I'd think that simply sitting with your knees like... 1-2 inches apart should give teh balls of 99.9% of the male population enough room to 'breathe'.
👌:P

[Unknown_User7]

Being polite is a given, just like breathing air. Chivalry is going one step further which is good. Most women love a chivalrous man, which is why men tend to be chivalrous. people have to remember the dynamics between men and women are very different , compared to the dynamics of same sex/gender interaction, which is where chivalry and "lady like " originated from.

[SpiderManFan2002]

So how would you go one step further with chivalry?

In my time, I don't mind guys who are being polite- but when it comes across as them trying to be chivalrous it can get annoying. Like when they're a mile behind you and they're like: "No wait! Let me get the door!" Like I'm perfectly capable of not waiting for you, and opening the door myself and chances are because you're behind me, I'll hold open the door for you out of politeness. Instead of attempting to make me wait, as if I can't do it with you.

[Nalix]

Men and women shouldn't be expected to fall into line with global behavior. Women shouldn't be subject to particular treatment just for being women, and the same goes for men. Treat individuals as individuals with individual preferences.

By the same token, there should be obvious expectations in place as well. Things like pronouns, for instance, should be assumed to follow appearance unless otherwise stated. Sub-culture expectations should flow naturally in this regard, and may even be cataloged and studied for our convenience.

Ideas of politeness change wildly from one culture and sub-culture to another.

[SpiderManFan2002]

"Men and women shouldn't be expected to fall into line with global behavior. Women shouldn't be subject to particular treatment just for being women, and the same goes for men. Treat individuals as individuals with individual preferences."

Completely agree with this.

"By the same token, there should be obvious expectations in place as well. Things like pronouns, for instance, should be assumed to follow appearance unless otherwise stated. "
By this I assume you mean, that we should call someone he/him if they look like a male, and someone she/her if they look more like a female, unless they state they are non-binary or something and would rather be referred to as something else?

If that is what you mean, I can see where you are coming from, but I don't see any harm in asking in pronouns in some instances. I have filled out many forms where they've asked me my preferred pronouns and as a female I would like to be called she/her and I don't mind stating that, if it makes it easier for other people to be heard.

[Unit1]

I agree. Teach anybody (regardless what is between their legs) proper manners.

One more thing however.
If women want to be treated like a queen, then women should be something respectable for herself (and no, selling your beautiful body doesn't count while probably also leeching off from men). That gives us men a purpose why we would treat you like a queen.

This of course applies to men as well. Want to be treated like a king? Be respectable, get some style, get good looks, lose the fat (if applicable) etc... and don't be a self deprecating degenerate.

[SpiderManFan2002]

I agree on teaching people politeness. :)

But I find the whole saying "get treated like a king/queen" kinda pretentious tbh.

I prefer to say we should respect each other, as long as we give respect we should get it back.

[Unit1]

Whatever you want.

[Mystic_Nova]

I think people just need to have common courtesy. Holding the door and such isn't a big grand gesture, it's a common thing boys and girls should do already. Chewing with your mouth open, is universally gross as well.

[SpiderManFan2002]

Exactly! :P

[sunsetdreamer]

Okay here's what I think about these 'roles'. I think we SHOULD teach anyone to be polite at least, but being ladylike or chivalrous is more like a personal preference. Ladies like to be treated like a lady, by real gentlemen, and vice versa. But if you are not into any of that, just be with someone who isn't either? It doesn't exclude each other..

I would consider myself as into 'ladylike' things, which means I also appreciate a man who is into being chivalrous sometimes. But I would think that men who are not into that, don't look for a 'ladylike' woman as well. So nobody SHOULD do something, it's just what you prefer. Politeness is the only thing that should be done by both genders.

[Aakash_Hangargi]

Chivalry is a tradition kinda thing it was in place because men were considered like rough and tough with less emotions to show the lady whom they love they did some actions kind gestures to make feel there beloved to feel they are care and loved according to me it has nothing to do with being sexiest being said that a few tweeks could be done to chivalry and chivalry is a form of politeness as well being lady like has many diversified variations I am not sure at all a lady is a lady what it means to be lady like?

[motownplayer2000]

Chivalry was never really a thing to begin with in my opinion. Back in the day, men treated women much worse... they were almost to the point as slaves. They were property. Didn’t have rights, expected to do as they were told, etc... (one reason why there is an amendment to the constitution for women). But they had to give women something, so they called it Chivalry. What they thought women would want. A man “taking care” of them. When in actuality, women had no say, and no right to do anything but, be ladylike... which was another term used by them. Being polite is the only term in that whole description that’s actually real.

[Carnivoroustomatoe]

a lot of people don't realize that old fashioned chivalry was a double edged sword. Sure for a woman that meant the man had to pay for the date, hold the door open, help her into and out of her seat, and basically roll out the red carpet each and every date. But the other side of that time period was that a woman's career choices were either stay at home wife or be the personal coffee waitress / note taker for some crusty old CEO. Men were expected to take care of and provide for their wives. Nowadays, relationships and families are a team effort. Going on a date expecting the dude to pay for everything isn't very far off from expecting the wife to stay home and raise the kids and clean the house. Modern day relationships are better off approaching them with a teamwork sense.

[geonator]

I don't so much have a problem with people advocating Chivalry and lady-like-ness, as I do have a problem with people trying to push it into people and teach selfish attitudes by it. I've heard people say "open the door for a woman, not because she can't open it for herself, but because she shouldn't have to." I will open the door for a woman, but that statement sounds like another way of saying "she's entitled to having the door open for her." Just because she's beautiful and special doesn't mean I don't expect her to be unselfish while not having an entitled attitude

[ecfresh]

I still choose to believe that chivalry isn’t dead and would teach some aspects to my son. Polite is obvious.

[SpiderManFan2002]

Okay, that's interesting.

1. Where would you differ politeness from chivalry and being ladylike, to you?
2. What aspects of chivalry would you teach to your son?
3. If you were to teach aspects of chivalry to your son, would you also teach aspects of being "ladylike" to your daughter?

[ecfresh]

Thanks for the questions:

1. For me being polite is something that requires little to no effort. Thankfully my parents drilled it into my and my brother and it’s habitual at this point. So please, thank you, you are welcome.. they flow without thought. Other aspects of being polite and showing respect are similar.

Chivalry and being ladylike seem to require more forethought and energy. These are more intentional and are meant to help others.

2. The old school opening a car door for a lady, pulling out her chair, walking between her and traffic, holding her hand when walking through a crowd; the small intensional behaviors often shown on a date to treat her well.

3. I would like to teach a daughter some aspects of being ladylike but I’m not up to speed on many of them and would have to rely on others to help; hopefully my wide would have knowledge. Some behaviors would match the behaviors of a gentlemen so she would show appreciation for his actions and in turn treat him well in a romantic setting.

Obviously we live in 2020 and progress means many behaviors have become antiquated and others thankfully abolished due to their results. But while I know that women and men can be equal partners and share so many things in life, I still see value in chivalry and acting ladylike in certain situations. Ironically I’m also quite laid back so out of the public eye and safely at home I’d probably revolt against a lot of that behavior because I’m down with just chilling and cutting loose.

[ecfresh]

Oh no bad typo Gag.. *wife not wide.. calling your wife a wide wife is an example of not being polite at all :)

[ecfresh]

And as I often say I am a feminist and proud of it. There is still work to be done to promote rights of women in this world. Everyone should be given equal opportunities for success. I take it personally because as an uncle my 6 year old niece kicks ass in everything she does and I want no barriers for her to follow her passions. Currently that’s a professional software player but if she runs for president one day she has my vote. So the aspects of chivalry and being ladylike that promote oppression and objectification I’m oppose.

Does that gel with your thinking?

[SpiderManFan2002]

No prob, thanks for answering :)

1. I agree I don't think being polite requires much effort really, it's just basic human decency.

But I do think in some cases, being polite can require more thought and effort when it's more than just the basic "please" and "thank you" and you intend to help someone. But I don't think we should label that as "chivalrous" and "ladylike" because it implies a certain type of politeness is for boys, and a certain type of politeness is for boys, when really we should help each other in anyway we can regardless of gender.

2. Hmm, interesting. See I'd want to treat my son or daughter to treat their SO well on a date too, but you see, sometimes, traditional things perceived as "chivalrous" while they can have the best intentions, it can often come across as annoying when it oversteps the mark of just being polite, and starts to become more condescending. See I'd tell both of them to that it's good to open doors for people, pull out chairs for people, because it's just the polite thing to do. And the same applies to a date for either of them, I think a date should be less focused on "gender roles" and more focused on the personality of the person they're dating. And as for the crowd thing I'd teach either of them, if he/she needs that kind of help walking through a crowd, help him/her but if they don't, don't do that, because it can easily come across as condescending. And the same goes for the traffic thing.

3. Again, I'd rather just teach them to be polite, because I personally believe just teaching politeness promotes equality in terms of respect, and there are different levels of politeness that we don't have to assign a gender to.

I do respect your viewpoints though, even if I do disagree. :)

[ecfresh]

Thank you for following up and I kinda knew we wouldn’t see eye to eye. Ironically I was much closer to you years ago and understood the value of being gender neutral and not wanting to be condescending. My hope is with my jovial nature and good intentions if the behavior was questioned a strong man or women would speak up and I would be able to explain. Ha ha see that’s one aspect of being ‘ladylike’ I wouldn’t teach my daughter; we all have a voice and male or female we all should speak up and not feel like we need to just accept things. Good discussion, cheers:)