Should we promote "chivalry" and being "ladylike," or should we just promote being polite? (Page 2)
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I hold the door open for my boyfriend sometimes because I have always been very adamant on holding doors open for others and doing chivalrous things even though I’m a lady. I also like paying for my own food because I know he works hard for his money and I don’t want him spending it all on me.
The thing is when you say "chivalrous" it insinuates it's an action done by a guy.
You're not being chivalrous in my opinion, you're just being polite :)
Oh yes I know it’s a male term but I do the actions that come along with chivalry which is what I meant my bad!
Oh alright, well if you see it that way fair enough, but personally I'd just call that polite behaviour :)
i think politeness sends the right message because it means everyone is treated with the same respect
Yeah I agree, another reason why I'd teach my children "politeness" over "chivalry" and being "ladylike".
why should we promote a behaviour just based on the person's sex?
If everyone was just both show etiquette it'll be great.
Totally agree :)
gender roles and stereotypes and expectations r fucking stupid. It's ok if people want to do those things but just stop pushing those expectations based on the person's sex please, humans.
Exactly.
There's nothing wrong with traditional gender roles, if it is your *choice* to follow them, then who am I to tell you, you shouldn't? I'll never tell someone that they should not follow a traditional gender role if that is their choice, however, I will give them my reasoning as why I don't believe in following the "traditional" roles, for me personally.
What I have a problem with, is when people push following traditional gender roles or even reversed-traditional gender roles, upon society. Just let people do what they want.
yes I agree
I think I'd have to agree with this. These are good points. Although there are certain etiquette rules that do go for each gender. Like, I do agree with the thing about a man should walk on the side of the sidewalk next to the road and the woman should be on the inside. And a woman shouldn't sit with her legs open like a man.
"Like, I do agree with the thing about a man should walk on the side of the sidewalk next to the road and the woman should be on the inside."
But why? What does it matter at which side of the road you walk on? I've walked on the side closer to the road before, it hasn't killed me.
"And a woman shouldn't sit with her legs open like a man."
To be honest, I find "man spreading" annoying in general, like I'll be sat on the bus and then have no space because this dude just decides to more or less squash me smh, but if we're going to make it okay for guys to do, I can't see the problem with girls doing it either.
It's just decency on the street to be sort of protective.
Funny, cuz when I used to take public transportation the majority of people who 'spread' about are women. They put their bags on the bus and train seats so no one else can sit next to them until you actually get up the courage to say, "Can I sit there please?"
Meh to me it's just walking at a side.
Hm, maybe your experience is just different to mine, people have different experiences I suppose, but in my experience it's been dudes who "spread" more, I've seen girls who spread too, but they've never like squashed me on public transport lol.
I've done the bag thing before too though, but the bus is filling up I'll move my bag, especially if it's an elderly person or someone coming to sit. But if the bus is virtually empty I'll keep my bag on the seat next to me, though once there was literally like one or two other old people on the bus, plenty of other empty seats and this guy just asks me to move my bag when there were loads of other places he could have sat by himself, but I moved it not wanting to argue.
How about we all strive to be decent human beings and teach our children to be decent human beings... so that they can teach their children to be decent human beings... Picking up what I'm putting down here?
Yep, and I like your approach ;)
Thank you...
Pretty sure that's what replaced the both of them as most people are not taught that these days anyway simply fought to be respectful and polite
Yeah I do agree, that more people are adapting the "polite" approach, but I do see a number of people still promoting "chivalry" and being "ladylike" I mean, each to their own and all- but I'm just interested to see what people say here, given some users on here are quite traditional and all- it'll be interesting to hear their perspectives.
Ah that's fair enough I would say though it's more so online I hear them type of comments and never irl
I've heard the more "traditional" comments irl, however, I don't hear them often and I do agree that I hear them online way more.
But don't get me wrong lol, I'm not here to be whiny and act like a victim or anything- I know, that nowadays most people just teach their kids to be polite rather than those gender roles, I'm just curious to see how many people would actually prefer the more traditional route than the modern one, and I'd like to hear their arguments for/against and stuff.
It's just interesting to see people's views on things like this, hence, one of my favourite YouTube channels is Jubilee😂😂
Didn't think you was lol seems completly rational
Haha, okay- just wanted to make sure😂😂
Thanks for the response anyway man :P
No problom keep up the good questions 👍🏽
Chivalry in the colloqial sense is vastly different to how it was meant to be, it originally was a knights code of conduct, however, as it knights were also of high social standing it got blended into the way they behave in social events of the time. Personally I think having a concept of ladylike is potentially damaging, and the term chivalry tends to be used by guys who (a better way of putting this currently escapes me) are a bit incely and want to big up small actions of kindness and imply that as a result women owe them something. Personally I think both terms should be socially abolished, and go by the tried and tested rule of don't be an asshole.
It's all about how you pericieve the intent.
Some girls think chivalry objectifies them and others approve of it.
I think the key is for both guys and girls to be chialrous in their own way and accpet that the other is doing these things because he likes you and not because he wants to be superior in any way (he implies both guys and girls in this context)
Chivalry is sexist. Ladylike is also sexist. The false notion that everyone of the same gender should be absolutely identical with same preferences in Hobbies , careers, strengths, talents is all false.
But if you want to make a girl fall in love with you, it’s best to be chivalrous. It shows you care
Aww thanks for mentioning me💕
I would most certainly agree being courteous and polite to others is must if we are striving for equality. No matter what gender.
No prob :)
And I completely agree with you, if we want to promote equality, we should teach people the same levels of manners and respect for each other regardless of gender <3
Chivalry can come across as fake to me. Any penis jerking asshole can use chivalry to fool a female he wants to clap skin with. People should just be real. If your instinct is to get the door for her, do it. Dont force it though
Yeah exactly, I agree.
Chivalry is dead. I was brought up to use chivalry, but it only got me treated like a door mat. Ladylike? Feminism eliminated that as sameness to men in all regards are sought by women everywhere. Chivalry is now officially a relic of the defunct and obsolete. Not saying I agree with it, but this is just the reality of the situation.
"Chivalry" as we know it was formed off the back of the conduct of high ranking men at social events in the medieval period, during which the social atmosphere was very different. Now, quite rightly so, women are not expected to stay home and simply perform a housewife/mother role, and the man is not expected to be the breadwinner for the household. Same goes for the idea of being "ladylike". Both concepts were founded on social expectations in a time when genders were far less equal than they are today. To be chivalrous today would most likely be found to just be condescending and irritating rather than anything good or heroic. Not the actions themselves, more the thought process behind them, opening a door for a woman is fine, but opening a door for a woman because you are a man and that's what men do for women is formed from an inherently sexist place. Neither concepts have a place in today's society, and that is for the better. People should just be nice, regardless of gender. Gender should have no bearing on what is or isn't considered nice, or how to go about being a nice person.
Well a lot of girls aren't very nice or lady like. Cause they are independent and don't need a man.
And girls seem to show more interest in the bad boys. Therefore more guys behave like assholes.
I know there's girls out there that want a good guy, but when it appears the majority wants the bad boy well what'd you think is gonna happen?
"Well a lot of girls aren't very nice or lady like. Cause they are independent and don't need a man."
Lmao.
"And girls seem to show more interest in the bad boys. Therefore more guys behave like assholes."
Lmao.
"I know there's girls out there that want a good guy, but when it appears the majority wants the bad boy well what'd you think is gonna happen?"
Lol how much Wattpad fan fiction have you been reading?
I don't know what Wattpad is. And you quoting and laughing at my opinion kinda proves my point.
It really doesn't. You're the one generalising that's why I'm laughing. I'm aware a number of girls are as you say, but it certainly isn't "a lot" in my opinion.
You see a girl being independent as taking away her "niceness" but I know many independent girls who are nice. I prefer to be more independent myself, but if a guy offers me help, I'm not going to bite his head off and call him sexist- if I need it, I'll accept his offer, if I don't need it won't.
Secondly, I and many girls I know don't show interest in "bad boys." Personally, I don't show interest in any boys as I'd rather focus on my studies and the girls I know who do show interest in dating don't go for the "bad boys" and often go for guys who are nice, sweet, funny etc and they don't act like assholes at all.
You claim a majority want a "bad boy" when really you don't know that, because in my experience the majority don't, but at the same time, I'm not going to take my experience and pin it onto all girls or guys and generalise. I have met the occasional guy who is an asshole, and girl who is an asshole, but I have met far more guys and girls who are decent and polite, and we all just like to get on with it.
Mmhmm you claim you don't want to use your personal experience and generalize yet you're giving personal experiences and referencing your friends.
If you and your friends don't go for bad boys well that's nice. Still doesn't prove that a lot of other girls feel the same way.
And I don't know you laughing at my opinion and then asking if I read fanfic. Doesn't exactly come off as being nice to me.
The difference is, I'm giving an experience that directly conflicts yours, to prove we're not all the same.
But I'm not taking my experience and saying: "most girls are like X and that makes most guys act like Y" because truthfully there's no such thing as "most girls" or "most guys" because we're all individuals who in certain ways may behave similarly but in reality there are 3.5 billion of us each in this world, it's impossible to define how "most" of us act, given that we are all unique individuals who act differently.
Maybe it doesn't, and I apologise if I hurt your feelings. But trying to define "most" of us based on your negative experiences isn't exactly nice either.
I'm not comparing all women in the entire world. Just those in the USA since that's where I live and those are the women I've been exposed to.
There's a bunch of guys complaining about the same stuff I have pointed out. There's women admitting they prefer bad boys. Just look around GAG...
And let's not forget high divorce rates. I'm sure they're divorcing cause everyone is so nice to each other.
So it's definitely not just my experience.
Still there's millions of women in the USA, just to see a few on G@G (and yes it's a few compared to the entire population) it doesn't mean they speak for all. And just because a bunch of guys complain doesn't mean it's 100% true, sure some may be telling the truth or just what they feel the truth is, but some may not be.
Still basing defining all the women in the USA off of what? A few more people's experiences that you don't even know are 100% true?
There's women that complains about it and the high divorce rates. I don't know what else you want me to say.
You want me to run a research facility to get actual statistics?
And don't twist my words I didn't say all I only said a lot. For some reason you think I'm talking about 99% of the women.
Yes there's women who complain about it too, I never disputed that. But you're generalising here.
If you can then that'd be great to back up your claims, but if you can't then I guess you shouldn't make those claims.
Are you serious? Ok so if I say a lot of men have Dick's is that generalizing too?
I already gave examples and where I based my opinion. You're the one that keeps saying I'm generalizing because I used the words a lot.
every civilization in history has had gender roles. nothing good comes from getting rid of them.
think about it this way; do you really want ANOTHER sense of purpose and identity removed from your life in a time like these? isn't it comforting and reassuring to know YOU have a role expected of you?
Yes! Thank you for this!
"nothing good comes from getting rid of them."
Actually, good has come from not conforming yourself to certain roles based on your gender. I like to study, and I want a career in the computer science industry- had we been living by traditional gender roles I would have never found my passion for the subjects I study, and I would have been told, to stay at home and be a housewife. Now there's nothing wrong with a woman staying at home, and being a housewife as long as that's her choice and it's what she wants to do with her life. But forcing these roles upon women and men, because people believe it is their "role" is wrong and so much potential and passion can be missed out on.
Women and men have been able to rise in so many different roles and industries because we've moved away from assigning these roles and that's unlocked a lot of passion and potential within our society.
"think about it this way; do you really want ANOTHER sense of purpose and identity removed from your life in a time like these? isn't it comforting and reassuring to know YOU have a role expected of you?"
Honestly, if my "role" requires me to wait for men to open doors for me when it could be quicker and easier if I just opened the door if I am the one infront, if my "role" requires me to not at least attempt to try and carry something heavy myself, or refuse help from another girl when she's offering because "it's a man's job" or ignore a guy struggling to carry a huge pile of books instead of helping him because it's not "my role" then no, it's not reassuring at all, and it makes behave like an asshole if anything.
that's small potatoes compared to all the women who feel pressured to find a career when they would rather just stay home
and who knows. you might end up just like them when you're 30 and realize you don't want to do the things you think you wanted to do. maybe you were pressured into fighting gender roles when in reality it won't make you happy. you might be too young to really tell when a decision is yours vs when it has been pushed on you
She may end up like that at 30, or she may not. That's up to her. But it sounds like she'd rather have a choice in the matter and create her own purpose, instead of having it chosen for her. That's the beauty of choice and clearly most of us prefer to have one. I definitely do. Pressure to conform is very real, but once again that's where choice comes in and if people really want something they are going to get it wether or not others don't approve. She's damn near an adult, she's old enough.
"that's small potatoes compared to all the women who feel pressured to find a career when they would rather just stay home"
Firstly, I do think you are highly over exaggerating when you say "all the women" unless you can prove me wrong, with a legitimate study supporting your claim.
That said, I don't dispute that there are a number of women I have seen who do feel pressured to follow a career instead- and again, the problem is still gender roles, only this time it is reversed. Instead of saying, "staying at home" must be for women, and "going to work" must be for men, you get people saying and if not saying, certainly implying "staying at home" must be for men and "going to work" must be for women but that's still equally as wrong.
What I promote is: "Follow what you want, regardless of your gender. Men and women can both stay at home or go to work, it's up to *you*." Because if you say "going to work" must be for women and "staying at home" must be for men, is still forcing those roles upon people just in a different way.
"you might end up just like them when you're 30 and realize you don't want to do the things you think you wanted to do. maybe you were pressured into fighting gender roles when in reality it won't make you happy"
Again, I disagree. I wasn't pressured into "fighting" for anything. I have to just come to the conclusion, that I am being given the privilege of an education, which is something many children in other countries want but unfortunately and unjustly cannot have, so I should make the most out of what I had.
Plus, it's better I'm financially independent, and have my own finances so I can help towards paying the bills, and if the worst was to happen to my husband in the future- it may be a setback, but I'd still be able to support my myself and my children. Whereas if I just make the finances his responsibility and his only, if something unfortunate happens to him, or we split up, then I'd be stuck because I was so reliant on him.
Also, I have passion about my subjects, I enjoy them and I would love to pursue one because firstly reasons I mentioned above, but secondly, I'd be doing something with my life that I enjoy, and I would want to learn further about.
" you might be too young to really tell when a decision is yours vs when it has been pushed on you"
See, you say this to me now- and firstly, I disagree with you, I know what I want. I've researched my subjects, chosen them, and I am certain I do want to study one of them in depth and have in career in one of them. But don't get me wrong, I do want to get married and have a family too, but I also want a career because if I can't support myself, how do you expect me to support a family?
Secondly I feel like you're only saying that to me, because I told you I wanted a career and I was challenging traditional gender roles. However, I feel, had I said: "I want to be a housewife and I want my husband to work because I believe in traditional gender roles" you would not be saying that to me.
@Alpha09 Exactly! I'd rather have a freedom of choice, than someone pushing something onto me, because chances are if it's forced upon me- I'm going to resent it no matter what.
But if I have my choice and soon realise it's a mistake, then I've only got myself to blame for that because it's what I chose in the first place.
Context is key, if someone is nice because it's the right thing to do then I'm on board with them, if someone does something nice because they expect a reward or feel superior to someone (whilst glad they're doing something nice lol) then I'm not so on board with.
In today's time, I believe it's best to be polite.
I used to always open doors for women but about a decade ago I had several women tell me not to do that anymore. They considered it rude. So I stopped doing it.
Yeah it certainly is.
I don't consider door opening to be rude, unless, someone is condescending about it- acting as if I can't open that door without them, but if it's just they happen to be in front of me or open the door first then hold it open for me I don't mind.
But it's good you listened to those women, instead of disregarding their wishes. :)
What men and women respectively consider polite and impolite is different though. Some women think its rude that a man wouldn't offer to pay for her dinner/ticket of admission. No man would ever be bothered by that.
For men its considered disrespectful to not shake another man's hand. I'm sure women would be upset by this too but I haven't ever seen a woman say that they consider refusing a handshake to be a snub. I'm sure there are other examples
I think we should probably promote listening to each other, open mindedness, at least trying to practice non-judgemental discussion and debate. We should promote talking to each other civilly, and respecting each other.
I always say to my children I couldn’t care less who or what you grow up to be or do with your life (obvs will celebrate the good) so long as you are kind and nice to those that deserve it!
The way you describe is old now time for a new start!
I think it is more vital for boys to learn it, given that boys tend to be more aggressive and if he is raised with how to show respect to females, he likely will treat women good in life. Girls have the natural tendency to already be tinder, so it is usually culturally given if women end up being very mean.
I mean I just think, it's how you were raised whether you are a guy or a girl. So we should just teach it to both, and see it as an equal importance.
That's a sort of lopsided way to look at it, by asserting that guys must learn chivalry as they tend to be more aggressive and chivalry teaches them not to treat women poorly, you're neglecting to consider that "chivalry" fosters a toxic sort of one up manship among men where there is social competition to be the "better" man. If this was just a case of it teaching guys to be good to women then that wouldn't be an issue, social competition to be the guy who is the least dick to women isn't bad, but it's the stylised and idealised form of manhood attached to the notion of chivalry which is damaging. It presents the idea that a real man is one who requires this antiquated code to keep them in check, so they are aggressive, and outspoken, and "knightly" in the pop culture sort of sense. If chivalry was swapped with don't be an asshole, then it doesn't matter if it's a guy or a girl, you are taught to not treat them poorly. It also removes the issue of an idealised form of masculinity.