Sure when someone stares at you unprovoked, it could be uncomfortable as you would not know that the person who stares doesn't have any malicious intends.
However, those who often complain about the male gaze do at least one of the following points:
1. Wear provocative clothing.
A wise woman on this website once the following:
She is very right about that if you're serious about not wanting to get stared at, you will minimize the odds of that happening. We all know that a woman who wears something skimpy will get a lot more stares than a woman who isn't showing off her assets. If I wear a Rolex in a ghetto, I shouldn't be flabbergasted if I happen to get mugged.2. Complain about "male gaze" unless it is an attractive guy who is daring the 'gazing'. Which clearly shows the doublestandards and how flawed their theory of the "male gaze" is.
3. Proceed in gazing themselvesAnother hypocrisy the feminists have is that they complain about the male gaze and proceed in induldging in the same behavior that they criticize men for consciously or not. So men can't 'stare' at women, but somehow they are allowed to stare at the cute stud over there and scan him from top to bottom.
I catch girls looking at me all the time. It's just men's gaze that is bad. Because we are bigger and stronger and some men rape and murder women.
So Male sexuality is by nature evil and violent and scary. Or so they seem to think.
I've learned that men are not allowed to do what women do. Women's sexuality doesn't slippery slope into rape so it will never be something seen from a perspective of fear and violence.
And so regular men who are completely and utterly harmless live their lives terrified of stepping a toe over a line they cannot ever see themselves crossing. But can see themselves as falsely accused of being a creep or worse.
Anyways, the whole "gaze" thing in feminism is not about what a man looks at. The "gaze" is merely a fancy word for "lens." The feminists believe that society has taught all of us to see the world through some kind of specific masculine perspective that sees women as sex objects and inferior and less intelligent and basically women aren't even human in the perspective of people in these masculine dominated nations grow up in.
So you're wrong about what the "male gaze" means in feminist literature. However, it's still true that Male sexuality is demonized such that men who are innocent of sexual crimes and would never commit any sexual crime, fear to merely flirt with a woman.
And women say "why is he scared if he is innocent?" Women really can't understand this. They are blind to it.
I notice that women in general are much more connected to their sexuality. Guys are just horny. Women have a relationship with their sexuality that extends into the non sexual world.
So many women are just ON all the time. Most men are not. Because for a man to be "ON" is offensive. It is scary. It us a threat for a man to be casually connected to his sexuality, lest he lose control and become a rapist.
And I see women replying here, talking about creepy freaks who are like the tiniest representation of men. That doesn't apply to most of us. Not at all.
But as with everything, there are exceptions.
Men are allowed to flirt. To gaze. To be sexual. To do all the things women do.
However, you have to do it right, and nobody ever taught you what the right way is.
If you do it wrong, you risk becoming a creep. A predator.
So men who are innocent of sexual crimes fear to flirt, fear to be what men are allowed to be, because he knows if he does it wrong, he is seen in the same light as a man who is a real sexual predator and criminal.
And so I see this as a big problem. Innocent men who fear to date have sex and seek love, because if he doesn't "do it right" he's screwed.
And women see it as simple. Their minds are boggled why every man doesn't simply adopt everything women want in men.
We can't. Because we dont know the truth. We must be convinced and no woman can convince us what the truth is because women cannot put it in language we understand because men and women speak different languages when it comes to sex and love and dating
Anyways ramble off. Nobody gonna read it and if some did they probably too stupid to comprehend anyways. Oh well...
Because today's feminist who act like that think the world owes them and it's all about them. If I catch a guy staring at me I take it as a compliment. Something about me he found interesting. As long as he's not following me it's no big deal.
And especially if I'm wearing something that shows cleavage then I'm giving men who like boobs a reason to look at me. I mean you can bet I'd glance at a guy walking around shirtless. Especially if he's attractive. Doesn't even have to be shirtless.
If there's something attractive about you people are drawn to that. It could be something unattractive about a person someone might be looking at too. Point is it's not wrong. It's human nature.
Thank you for your opinion. I'm and orthodox christian, so actually I'm sure that looking at somebody with lust is sinful and kills us from inside. (I've experienced that many times)
I've started this topic just to show everybody how literally ABSURD feminism is. Feminism really has no logic.
I agree
Opinion
82Opinion
A bloke slant on this from the football last night.
a couple of my team were out at the pub watching the English game last night.
they had some of the young software Dev girls with them.
over about 30 minutes a guy kept looking at one of the younger devs, she was getting really uncomfortable.
So Dave, should we call him, wanders across to this guy and says look your checking out our colleague is not really wanted.
the bloke was very much it’s a free world, true.
half time comes , the bloke is found outside having fell a few times against a lamp post.
Moral of the story, yes it’s a free world to look, however lamp posts are sneaking fuckers and often jump out at people when not expecting it.
Similar with a guy I knew when I live near Birmingham, he was on holiday and a guy was staring a bit too much at his daughter, no warning given, just pummelled the shit out of him, police where there pronto and the bleeding guy cautioned.
it’s not actually a feminist thing, it’s more of a when sitting watching the day goes by watching the skirt go past (we all do it) turns in to a leery sex pest of a weird.
For those that say it’s okay, what are you going to do if it’s directed at your wife, girlfriend or daughter at 14,16, 18?
I assume as it’s a free world and you will just let it happen and do fuck all.
But then if you feel it’s wrong, then the person you are letching at, is actually someone’s daughter, wife, girlfriend…
just food for thought.
Yeah; they consider everything men do as "sexual harassment." ... Unless they find the man hot. Feminists are also dumb sacks of sh*t and hypocritical about everything, so no one should take them the least bit seriously, anyway. You have the correct train of thought here.
Nailed it!
@mcheetah Salute to you bud... That is the whole point with less extreme feminists. The more extreme ones, the so-called feminazis, who form the majority these days, do not even want attractive men. They either want a fucking pussy (and we as men must unfortunately accept that most men these days are just too compliant and pussy due to the cultural hegemony and indoctrination of feminazism) to have control over and treat like a second-class citizen, or they are well on their way to become a fucking pissed off crazy cat-lady.
@A_Bell Not just a lot of truth, it is The Truth, at least when it comes to less radical feminists...
@TruthBringer Exactly!
First, is it feminists or women? Second, it depends how they stare. Do they look like they want to rip your clothes off? Are slyly taking pictures while "glimpsing"? Then I can see why they'd consider it harassment. Sexual harassment, I don't know, but I can see that can be irritating for anyone. If they just look for a couple seconds, that's one thing, but if someone, anyone, is following you down the street starting, that's not fun. I was at a restaurant recently and there were these two guys that stared at any woman that walked by their table. Didn't matter if they were 18 or 80, they stared like they've never seen a woman before (me being one of them). Once I started staring at them as they were at me, they stopped, for I don't know what reason. I guess my creepy glare like theirs scared them. Lol. Anyway, one of the waitresses in leggings walked by their table and one of the guys turned around, and kept staring and kept turning around and kept staring, he actually tipped out of his chair and fell. It was hilarious.
Victim politics. Its really only a problem if they don't fond you attractive. Fortunately there are 3 rules to get around this. 1. Be handsome. To be attractive. 3. Don't be unattractive
https://www.youtube.com/embed/PxuUkYiaUc8
There's tactful ways to do something.
Doing a double take or being genuinely taken aback by someone's appearance is sometimes unavoidable.
But you can always determine whether you're subtle or a total creepshow.
Mouth agape, body lean, following with your eyes? Creepy. Any sort of cat call? Harassment - you've now interacted and you didn't need to do that.
A subtle look, maybe a smile and nod if you catch her eye, a wave and back to your convo/coffee/phone/etc? Ok, you're probably fine.
Basically, you can look - but be subtle, be considerate, and don't openly stare.
Woman's just out doing her regular shit. She doesn't need or want your attention. Your body, your choice? Her body, her choice - it isn't your free show. If you wanna oogle, go watch porn.
But don't try to turn the streets into your personal peep show. That's just desperate and sad.
Actually, girl can wear what she wants, if it's just her body. And guy can rotate his head and his eyes to any direction he wants, they're also just parts of his body. He can look at the girl's body unless approaching, chasing, lewd or vitriolic phrases, or sexual harassment comes in.
This is one of the many places where modern feminism devolves into a female supremacy movement. There is no equality in your position.
Why do you get the right to control another's non verbal actions? We have no right to control what you wear or do... why do you get the right to control what we look at?
This taken to the extreme will have men always looking down and perhaps following behind a women who can do as she pleases... as is the custom in the Muslim world for women in public in some arab states.
@Smoke-n-Growls
Why should someone else being "creeped out" essentially be illegal according to you? Like what others have said, it's feminist level thinking to assume anyone needs to kiss a woman's ass just to make her feel good, or go out of their way to give a woman what she wants, whenever she wants. When men say women shouldn't dress half naked or inappropriate, women say men shouldn't tell women how to dress. But now, these same standards don't apply here when it comes to men's own VISION!
Most men AREN'T being intentionally inconsiderate or rude, but you're saying its a problem, regardless, and that they shouldn't have autonomy to their own eyes and bodies. You can say it's not polite, but you don't have to any right to tell them they shouldn't be "allowed" to do it, just because you "don't like it" (as politeness is a courtesy, not a requirement in society).
It's a shitty double standard.
If you don't want to be oogled then don't wear things that let men stare at that time don't say my body my choice as well.
Our society is biased in these things it's a women who does it it's offer but if guys do it they are lofers 🤣.
But I agree there can be subtle ways.
I agree with all what you said except for my body I can do anything , but you can't do with your body what you wanted to do.
For example in a train if a guy had boner for natural reasons and some girl would think it's bc of her and calls out on him for no reason at all the guys in soup bc the girl thought it was bc of her.
If you make me uncomfortable and It’s clear I’m uncomfortable then it is definitely harassment and even a form of abuse in some cases. If it’s someone that has power over you in some way, like a teacher, boss, or just that you are in a vulnerable situation, like taking the train/bus home alone at night - then it is definitely a form of abuse. Men need to realise the terror and fear women live with. It might be just a gaze to you but to a woman it can feel like the prelude to something horrible. I can’t even tell you about the amount of panic, anxiety and fear this so called “just a gaze” has caused me. And how many times the “just a gaze” has led up to a man following me or full on harassing. Stop with this bullshit. If you are interested in a woman just be upfront. Look her in the eyes and smile, or introduce yourself. Be mindful of the setting and power dynamics as well!
@Juxtapose Talk for yourself… YOU talk bullshit.
Oh yes. I’m sure a quick gaze at you is just terrifying. Another female victim. 😂
What if looking her in the eyes and/or introducing yourself make her feel uncomfortable?
@devilman666 That gives her a good chance to show you she’s uncomfortable, or that she is not interested, or maybe she is. In any case it makes the whole situation less intimidating. And it’s respectful. You create a human connection. I always respect and appreciate when a man comes up and talks instead of being creepy, even if I’m not interested we can still have a good conversation.
Alright, well just be careful looking at and flirting with men, because it's a two way street, so don't surprised if men accuse you of sexual harassment and abuse. Learn the signs of an uncomfortable man and never make the mistake of thinking a man is comfortable when he isn't.
This is a trap. If you're a low value male, you have no right to stare, cat call or make a woman scared or have to deal with your creepiness. She should get to feel comfortable, even if her rear-end is hanging out of shorts, all kinds of skin showing and breasts nearly falling out or very little left to the imagination. She is empowered to do that.
If you're are a high value man in her eyes, you get the priveledge to call her out, and that's why she gets to show it off. If the wrong man notices, it's his fault. If the wrong man makes a big deal about it, cops will be called.
These women that do this, have intent.
Only the feminist handlers know why. Feminism, a sub-cult of full-blown Cultural Marxism is about disruption and destroying the relationship. That is the handler’s objective. As far as the useful-idiot level everyday feminists, they are just following orders. The bottom line is divide and conquer. Another apparent sub-level objective is to dismantle the male sex drive and put the woman in charge of selecting her slave.
I would feel uncomfortable if someone stare at me directly for some time but i dont consider it as harrasment at all.
Many girls should admit - "if someone NOT GOOD-LOOKING OR HOT EVEN OR WHO I LIKE stares ant her directly..."etc.
Im kind of shy and introvert so i would feel even more uncomfortable if the guy is attractive. Both cases but more if he is good looking.
Ty for having common fucking sense!
They don’t actually… You can look, you can even smile, the moment you’re in a group of men starting to yell lewd phrases, whistle or make monkey noises with sexual gestures you lost it.
Don’t invent stories.
You can look around, catch a look and a smile, if they smile back you can talk, if they turn away their head and don’t look back, leave them alone. It’s the lack of understanding for the latter that’s causing the trouble. And I don’t blame them. Oh, ogling only chest area’s and not looking in their eyes is a good disqualifier too.
I'm a feminist and I don't care when guys gaze or glimpse, as long as they don't touch and don't throw nasty words my way, I'm fine with it.
If women consider it sexual harassment then they need some therapy.
-D-
Wow you actually admitted women can be wrong sometimes. Thank you. Maybe you should reconsider calling yourself something else besides a feminist.
@rounddablock Being a feminist doesn't mean you're always right, each person (Men and Women) can be a feminist their own way, there are no GROUND RULES. Mine are plain and simple, and people that never admit when they do something wrong have issues... everyone makes mistakes... being a feminist doesn't mean they hate men, absolutely not.
Women that are radical feminists have issues and need therapy...
The phrase “feminist” itself is now so tainted and politically charged most people think of radicals when they here it. There needs to be a new phrase that doesn’t denote the radical element.
@natured well there needs to be a new term to discern between classic feminism vs. modern feminism. Remember the phrase itself contains the Latin subroot “fem” which focuses on women. Maybe that was necessary 50 years ago but definitely not today.
Many guys get a bad gut feeling when they hear a woman voluntarily label herself as a feminist. We usually assume the worst.
They don't. There's a difference between respectfully glancing and oogling over someone. We don't care if you just look (respectfully) we do it too but we don't make it obvious. It's when you open your mouth we have an issue.
“It’s when you open your mouth we have an issue.” So we’re not supposed to talk to a female we find attractive? Got it.
Should you talk to a woman because you think her ass looks good? No. I don't walk up to guys to chat because his bulge is looking great that would insincere of me. I would be talking to him purely because I find him sexually attractive and that is objectifying.
You girls like being sexualized. You just won’t ever admit it
We like being sexualized when it's on our terms. When we choose to be. When we give you consent to sexualize us. Nobody is denying that. You're just missing the point.
What point am I missing exactly?
Just because you think we look sexy doesn't mean we want to be sexualized by you. You have not been given consent to be sexual towards us. Wait for consent. consent is the point.
Well sweetheart if there’s certain times you don’t wanna be sexualized then stay at home in sweat pants. If you dress sexy, we’re gonna have sexual thoughts directed at y’all. U can’t dress sexy, then expect us not to be guys. If you had a dick, you would understand it from my perspective.
like I said. You can think that we look sexy but just don't say anything. It's not hard to keep your trap shut. It's not hard to be respectful. Honestly think about it. Your own mother has probably dealt with this. How would you react if you saw someone approach your mother calling her sexy because she's dressed up nice? You would seriously be okay with that?
I never said I disagree with being respectful about it. Really? U had to bring my mother into this? Wtf
All women are asking is for you not to cat call us, not to be disrespectful. Yes walking up to someone calling them sexy is disrespectful and makes us uncomfortable and scared. It seems like you are defending this behavior, that is why I asked if you would be ok with that happening to your own family members. A lot of people don't think of it that way. They think it doesn't happen to people they know. It does. It's fucking terrifying how blasé women are when it comes to talking about sexual harassment. It happens so often that we are use to it and we talk about it like it's not a big deal.
If your initial thoughts about someone is based on sex then you probably shouldn't be seeing if there is anything more without her knowledge of that. Especially if this is someone you just saw on the street.
@Smashingdoozy I find the conversation interesting here and the point that women liked to be sexualised on there own terms ok but the question is men are not robots you click a button oh now you can sexualised, click button now you don't I understand this is a complete paradox.
Also why do gals do these in any conversation they get personal like your mother lol did any guy says oh your father does the same he is probably staring at someone else now it's funny 😂 .
Sorry 🙂 but that's kinda weird.
I do agree constant staring could be bad but then some girls give signals it's too much authority on one side so coming on same ground is almost impossible with things.
It's always the girl has more power in these things it's confusing bc some girls think it as spontaneous and intresting and ok with it while some are creeped out also it isn't equal to all guys it changes on how smart or handsome the guy is this bias confuses and everybody wants to try there luck.
And sometimes it's just simple glance and more overthinking
The girls who think it's okay have probably never gotten attention in an appropriate way. They probably think it's the only way to get attention. And yeah I know for a fact that my father has done this, and I taught him that it was wrong and he understood.
Yup that's what I am saying it's hard bc of that some women women want this someone women want that and it's always what the women wants.
And I was giving an example I really didn't point out your dad might be doing that.
Some are male traits some things are female traits
Its at the end chance and consequence
Being a creep is not a trait.
It's all as we see it. But the bias is creep is when the person wants him to see as creep or a flirt that's the difference well you have the power so can't argue with that
I'm literally only talking about people who call someone sexy or hottie out in public, walking up to a stranger and saying that is gross. And if your first thought about someone is sexual you probably shouldn't be attempting to date them. You make it seem so much more complicated than it actually is.
Staring isn't always sexual I am not taking sides saying right or wrong but the situations and the power bias simple things are more complex in nature you try to see it from women's view that's right and I agree points are valid accepted but there is not all fingers are same rule and this was not about cat calling.
Dating itself the thought is based on sexual and mental compatibility often people first see the sexual compatibility than mental but it's a different topic since you mentioned it.
I am just saying that there is no real solution for this as it works for some and some doesn't.
Nobody is like oh she looks beautiful let's make her friend and complement her even still then guys would be judged.
I think everyone just has a different idea of what staring is because actual staring is creepy and that is what I'm talking about. I hope to hell that you know how to read social ques and know when a girl is uncomfortable. I'm not saying don't approach woman at all just saying it's not a good idea if your only thought about her are sexual ones. She will pick up on that and most likely walk away scared for her life. If it's not blatantly obvious a lot of women are scared of strange men. There's too many horror stories and we would rather not take the chance. speaking from my own experiences and experiences friends have shared with me.
That's also true understandable
It has often been said that the difference between flirting and sexual harassment is whether or not she finds you attractive.
Now I see woman. At my gym all the time wearing clothing that is highly sexualized.
Showing lots of cleavage and wearing yoga pants that are designed to explicitly show off a womans butt.
Mind you I am not complaining 😏 .
But it does somewhat annoy me when women who dress like this get annoyed when guys look at them.
I do think many women take this too seriously. I have kept myself in shape my whole life and practiced good hygiene and don't dress like a slob. I have had my share of times at the gym caught women trying to sneak a look at me and I didn't get upset.
I have seen women checking guys out at the gym all the time and those other guys didn't freak out and cry they were being harassed.
Modern women need to come down off their high horses when it comes to this.
How would u feel if some stranger would stare at u... uncomfortable and angry. So people with good manners dont stare on strangers or do it so, that another person woudnt mention it.
U have ur eyes, yes, but u definitely have no manners and brain.
Better give a glimpse to urself in the mirror
I don't care if anyone staring at me until he/she does something.
Not everyone reacts the same, most people find staring to be annoying and bad manners
So are you saying I should charge all the gay men at my work for sexual harassment because they don't stop checking me out?
@jgibsonian1986 i dont care who checking u out. I said that educated people with good manners never stare
I am just gonna debate with this logic ok so when girls show there skin and wear reaviling dresses they make guys uncomfortable and sexually tensed so is it not sexualy harasment against guys? You seducing guys with your body bc as you said a glance makes you uncomfortable so does your body makes guys uncomfortable I do agree with constant stare could be threatning
@Aakash_Hangargi I repeat again, staring isn't what educated person with good manner would do.
Dressing lewdly is also what educated person with good manner wouldn't do.
Ok but not sure what education had to do with it like schools definetly donot teach these things not to stare at men or women
Dude at that time it becomes my body my choice
It's a bunch of weirdo guys on here who can't get a woman in real life because they're ugly. So they stare at you like a psycho
If I saw a girl or a gay man staring at me, depending on the circumstances, I'd probably either feel embarrassed (if I feel like I just did something stupid) or flattered. Why be offended by someone finding you attractive?
@devilman666 if man have good manners he will never stare to the point when he sees she starts to feel scared and uncomfortable or angry.
There's a difference between looking and staring/gazing. Unless you, as a grown man, are socially handicapped in some way (on the Autism spectrum, for instance), you're making a deliberate decision to gaze at a woman instead of just looking at her.
I look at women all the fucking time in public. All. The. Fucking. Time. I look at their asses, their boobs, their faces, their legs. I enjoy all the sights there are to see. Never has it been a problem. Because I'm a grown man who knows how to look subtly. There simply is no reason to gaze/stare, if my only intention is to see her body parts.
So stop bullshitting, you dumb asshole.
I would say just looking at someone is not harassment. We all do it, however, if you stare at someone knowing she feels uncomfortable from her body language and you keep doing it to catch attention or purposely make her feel uncomfortable, that's harassment.
I know a lot of men don't even think of the concept that some men purposely try to make someone uncomfortable, but it happens more than you think.
I also think that you should stop playing dumb and asking us to draw direct lines at what harassment is or not. I think most guys are perfectly capable of knowing where to draw the line and I refuse to underestimate the social capabilities of men.
See the problem is the “you should just know” part of all that. Women expect mind readers while telling men they can’t understand what they go through… if someone stares at me I ask if they got a fucking problem and they either escalate or back off… if your as capable as you claim this should be simple for you no?
If a girl can wear what she wants then a guy can look at what he wants until he starts commenting it, saying something vitriolic or lewd, chasing the girl, or touching her/getting closer to her, violating her private borders.
@VanillaSalt I think we told men enough what we go through. Maybe read into it because there are many stories and examples. Many don't because they don't actually care that much and just want to be explained everything.
Definitely capable to do that, however, there's way more power struggle from men to women. They can get voilent and I'm not ready to be in danger because I felt uncomfortable. That's why women don't always say something back. We have been taught since youth that we are smaller, weaker and we have to be careful with violent men. Also that we always have to be polite, nice and quiet in public. Together with the previous experiences almost every woman has had where a guy abuses his physical power and height over us, we normally don't call out clearly aggressive men.
@Saske_Uchihaa until the looking makes her clearly uncomfortable. A girl can wear what she wants because her body is not inherently sexual. The issue is sexualisation and not her body. A prolonged stare where you undress her with your eyes is sexualisation and therefore sexual harassment. A glimpse at a person is not. It depends on the body language. I don't understand why you want to stare at someone that much they become uncomfortable. Why are you trying to defend that behaviour?
Looking at woman is nothing but just looking. Anything other is in your paranoid mind, it's your dreams.
I do nothing, I'm not following/chasing you, I'm not trying to talk, I'm not throwing out vitriolic comments or lewd phrases or suggestions, I'm not getting closer to you, I'm not touching you.
Anything lewd or 'uncomfortable' happens ONLY IN YOUR HEAD, it's your paranoid dreams. I'm just rotating my head and eyes to the direction I want, I do NOTHING to yourself.
My looking is not sexualized (as your body is), it's just looking. I just like looking at the beauty of the world, everything 'sexualized' is in your head.
Except many girls do experience it this way. That's why it's seen as sexual harassment and just because you don't mean it in that way doesn't mean no other guy meant it in a sexualizing manner. You're not the advocate for how women should feel.
I also don't think you really understand the difference between a glimpse and undressing with eyes/staring. Staring is rude to anyone, however, from man to women it can be interpreted as harassment so just don't stare at people?
@spuitkaas Don't sexualize my sight. When I looking at any point in space, it's just rotating my head and eyes towards this point. It doesn't imply ANYTHING. It's just my body. I don't say you anything, I'm not chasing you.
I don't say to you anything about how you wear - your skirt may be too short or your boobs may be out ant it MAYBE (maybe not) uncomfortable for me. But I keep silence.
Don't sexualize the angle of my head and eyes rotating.
@spuitkaas this would be all fine and dandy if women were expected to approach men as much as vice versa.
However we both know they aren’t and most of them don’t care to take on that “equal” responsibility. . Women still consider it “confidence” if a man approaches. So men have to take a gamble if she’s interested or not.
Most women these days are just whinny cry babies that get upset at almost anything a man does.
Look all I’m going to say is 10 years app before your stupid movement began says stupid shit like #killallmen ide have defended you the random unknown women. Now it’s up to you to fix your own problems…
@rounddablock
What has this to do with anything?
@Stephen_77 very correct. Maybe leave us alone or step up your game.
@VanillaSalt I don't support the #killallmen personally. You don't have to defend me if you don't want to. The whole point of feminism is to empower women. If you don't feel at home in the feminist movement, I'm sorry for that, but that's your own choice.
@spuitkaas it don’t matter what you support. I’ll admit I don’t have much interaction with women because my life’s too busy. But when I do interact I get fools like this how that let herself into my car and having the god damn privilege of not getting the police immediately called on her…she just steps in front of my car and then let’s herself in I spent 10 mins arguing with this bitch before taking her to the bus to get to work 10 mins late… you think a man would be afforded the same privilege? I was 14 when I stepped on a nail in a field. Went to a nearby house to use the phone. Showed her a once white sock blood red. Woman tells me well you shouldn’t have been playing in the field… I walked home with my bike a mile after getting a nail through and through my foot… I hate the world equal. Feminists don’t for got equality they fight for female empowerment. Your equal to me? You haven’t paid enough taxes. Put in enough overtime. I’ve remodeled houses, done plumbing, electrical, hunting, fishing, mechanical, I’m strong, etc… I wonder if you have any of that? I’m 10x what you currently are yet society sees you as more valuable than me. Feminism is a fucking joke.
And ya know what I’m tired of hearing from women well I’m not like that I don’t support that I don’t agree with that… well I’ll ask a man out and I’ll pay for the meal… it seems every feminist I talk to is like that so if your all like that… why is it more and more men are saying you girls do? It seems like every woman’s a unicorn and not like the average feminist.
@VanillaSalt so the thing is, the system that gives women priviledge to get away with things or helps women excessively is the same system we fight against. It's because there's a stereotype that women can't fix their own problems and need to be "saved" by a man. The woman in your car is someone that actively takes advantage of that system, which is not very feminist of her. Men get helped less in everyday life because they're seen as strong and cannot show weakness.
We actually don't want to be infantilized and would give up those priviledges just so we can walk safely on the street at night.
Do I think women should be treated like men and not get helped? No, but I do think we should abolish this priviledge by helping men more and accept that men can"t fix everything and need help too sometimes.
To be fair, anyone who sends away a 14 year old with a nail in the foot is just apathetic weirdo in my opinion. Not sure if that has anything to do with gender.
I haven't done that, because I'm a 24 year old student that has never had the necessity to do all that. If I had to do plumbing, I would probably pay someone to do it or if it's easy I look it up and do it myself. Choose your battles and if you don't like to do those things then just pay someone to do it for you?
@VanillaSalt I think most feminists are like me. The #killallmen group is a very select group but get a lot of media attention.
I"m actually from a country where splitting the bill is the norm on a date and has been for a long time. I ask men out sometimes, but I haven't been in a necessity to do that very often.
That’s why I can’t sign onto your feminism bullshit. “Would give up those privileged just so we can walk safely on the street at night.” You find it so hard to imagine somehow that men face danger in the streets too. It’s men that face violent crime more often then women. It’s men that are murdered more often then women. Yet somehow by taking away your privilege your going to make murder and rape disappear because somehow it’s linked to your privilege… you are throwing illogical arguments around like their fact. I never heard feminist demand an end to alimony until it started affecting women. Never seen a feminist in the light fight for men’s rights to custody of the children. Or for divorce laws to change. I hear all the time that women are asking men out more often but they sure as hell ain’t asking me or anyone I know. And only the ones that nobody seems to want ever offer to pay the bill I assume because they realize their lucky to have a chance to date. Where were all the women when this bitch that falsely accused the man of rape sent him to prison WITHOUT EVIDENCE for 6 fucking months? If it was a woman they’d be out in droves. Feminism isn’t about equality it’s about female empowerment. They don’t give a rats ass about men it just so happens some of the changes COULD positively affect men.
And again how can you claim to be equal to me because you alive? If that’s the case I must be equal to fuck Michael Jordan. And yet I’m not making millions or playing in the nba. Equality is a childish dream. And I’ll prove it. Women wanted to be equal in school. Now women make up more than 70% of college students. Overall they got higher careers hired sometimes just BECAUSE their women for diversity purpose. Now because women make more than most men you see videos popping up everywhere “where have all the men gone” and studies showing women are upset the men don’t out eat them anymore.
You can’t do half what I can but your equal? Right.
Your right you don’t have to ask. All you gotta do is doll yourself up and you get instant praise. As a man I work for 10 years and not an ounce of praise just the accomplishments I notice. But we’re equal right?
I wish I could turn you into a man for a year. Or maybe an ugly woman might be close to the same. But no even land whales get special treatment for being women.
Tell you what if you wanna actually learn and understand being a man… turn off your social media for a week. Don’t talk to anyone. Just wake up head to work get off do your shit limit your interactions as much as possible for a week. See what it’s like when people don’t like your selfie or say hi to you in public. To be so utterly ignored that you might as well not exist.
It takes everything I got not to hate women for their privilege they have and even more than I got to not hate them for having the nerve to demand more.
You don’t deserve more until you give up something.
Just playing devil's advocate here, but if you are going to try and marginalize the "my body, my choice" slogan, this may not be the appropriate way to do it. For example:
"This guy stared at me while I was walking down the street. When I confronted him about it, he smirked condescendingly at me and said "my body, my choice". I smiled at him like the child he was and replied "well this is my body and my choice is for you not to look at it. I also know another saying. Possession is ⁹/¹⁰ of the law" and promptly removed his eyes before walking away."
Actually, girl can wear what she wants, if it's just her body. And guy can rotate his head and his eyes to any direction he wants, they're also just parts of his body. He can look at the girl's body unless approaching, chasing, lewd or vitriolic phrases, or sexual harassment comes in.
🤓 Actually, it is still considered harassment.
Street harassment includes unwanted comments, gestures, or acts directed at someone in a public space without their consent.
Street harassment includes some of the following unwanted behaviors:
Comments, requests, and demands
Commenting on physical appearance, such as someone’s body or the clothing they’re wearing
Continuing to talk to someone after they have asked to be left alone
Flashing
Following or stalking
Groping
Intentionally invading personal space or blocking the way
Persistent requests for someone’s name, number, or other information
Public masturbation or touching
Sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic slurs, or any comments insulting or demeaning an aspect of someone’s identity
Showing pornagraphic images without someone’s consent
Staring
Taking a photo of someone without their consent
Telling someone to smile
Up-skirting, which is taking a photo up a skirt or dress without that person’s permission
Using a mirror to look up someone’s skirt or dress without their permission
Whistling
Oops too many 'required' in that sentence.
Anyway, it might be harder for guys to understand, but remember this much, guys LOVE to brag around here about how women can't outphysical them or beat them at sports. Wanna guess where that puts us? It is very possible for a stare that you wouldn't think anything about because you are big and strong for us to worry about it.
Let me put it this way and I need everyone here to CLEARLY understand I am not calling all men rapists.
If you went to jail and someone who was a known rapist who was much stronger and faster than you decided to start staring at you sexually, how long would you consider too long?
Hmmm why do you feel you are justified in blinding someone for looking at you funny? How is this about equal rights? This seems to be a clear assertion of privilege and tyrannical control. And considering someone can lose a job from an accusation of doing the following from your list:
Staring
Telling someone to smile
Comments
Is it any wonder why men are staying as far away from women in the workplace as possible.
Sry, its just your next idle talke, police in Russia won't even work with 'staring' accusement they'll just laugh. Cause there's no crime.
@b5fan I am not ok with it. The whole example was to show how ridiculous the "my body, my choice" slogan being used was. I have never harmed a soul for staring at me.
As for tyrannical control, whoa there partner. Men have been using these tactics for years to make women uncomfortable in the workplace making women try to keep their head down and try not to be noticed. Men can show up and do their work and not try to use it as a place to hookup. That would be super awesome possum actually. Look at me as a coworker, not as a piece of meat or sexual object. K thanks.
@Saske_Uchihaa Cool story. I'm not in Russia though. Here in the US it can be one though and I am just pointing it out for others here as well.
If you theoretically have rights to forbid men to look at you, men have rights to forbid you to wear open or lewd clothes.
I'm just saying it to show you how ABSURD your logic is. If body is not sexualized (you can do what you want) = eyes are not sexualized either (you can rotate them to the direction you want), it's also just a part of the body.
I'm not supporting staring nor dressing lewdly.
They have no rights over our clothing other than standard just the same as us having no control over theirs.
The difference is, we can walk out in public and live our normal lives regardless of what guys wear. If you can't walk out in public and keep yourself from staring that's a YOU problem and you need to deal with your predatory thoughts. It isn't my job to cover myself in a blanket just because you can't function like an actual human being.
@Ez-Bri-Z I've started this discussion with the only aim - to demonstrate lack of feminists' logic.
Actually when woman shows or highlights her secondary sex characteristics — that's a bad behaviour. When man stares at woman's body — that's also a bad behaviour.
If I'm looking at some point, I'm just looking and it implies nothing. If you think it's "predatory thoughts" - it exists only in your head. I'm literally doing NOTHING and you're saying it's "predatory thoughts".
Ohhhh... so guys can go topless and even though it is still including muscle, fat, breast tissue, and nipples that's A-OK with you.
If I put on a low cut shirt, I'm the devil?
Just asking for a friend.
You have no idea what a feminist logic is. You throw the word around as if you had a clue. You might have a passing of knowledge of radical feminism, but that is just as polluted as radical democrats and conservatives.
At the core, feminism is about equality. I don't want to be higher in societal power than a man. I don't hate all men. That is just angry people spouting stupid things at the extremes.
I want true equality. I want to be able to do things that men typically do without comments about how I am stepping outside of gender roles and trying to make a man obsolete. Maybe I just want to do it? I have no problem taking out trash, cutting the grass, or whatever stereotypical jobs are usually associated to men.
I want a guy to be able to walk to the park with their kids and not have women staring at him like he is some sort of sexual predator because they are so used to seeing other moms.
That's what I am after. True equality. I've said this before on this site and I will say it again here.
I want women to be able to step up and have all the same benefits guys have just for being a guy, but as women, if we can't accept all the disadvantages men have to deal with too, then we don't deserve true equality.
I have no problem with women wearing what they want.
I do have a problem with the tyrannical control over my body that you are asserting. You say where I look is a YOU problem... Could I not also say you feeling uncomfortable because I am looking in a general direction is a YOU problem?
The right I am trying to assert is sovereignty over one's body. No one should be telling you how to dress, walk, move, etc. Unless your movement intersects with another. That is a stance of equality.
Nobody is telling you how to move, dress or walk. The point is to not use those rights to stare at a woman creepily. There are plenty of girls online who willingly post themselves out there for you. Me walking down the street doesn't entitle you to those same rights.
Look, fine. Stare and we have a problem.
"Don't stare creeply" - in this case I could also demand "don't dress lewdly".
All this "creeply" exists only in your head. Don't sexualize or demonize other person's eyes. Don't insult or offend them.
Oh good lord. I never said you couldn't be attracted to someone else. Trust me when I say I 100% never want to be attractive to guys and while I don't think I am, my dm's and others who have shown interest tell me otherwise. I'm not saying they can't be attracted to me. I'm saying don't stare at me like a f*cking idiot because you can't control your libido. Definitely don't message me looking for a hookup cause it will never happen. I am just trying to exist, not for your pleasure, but for my own.
I'd love to believe the two of you are being intentionally dense and just finding any possible way to not feel guilty about what you know is wrong, but I fear I am giving you way too much credit.
My point is the heart of the issue is that you wish to control who is attracted to you.
The 'gaze' is just the signal that you detected and did not welcome.
I am saying that you do not have the right to control what other people think or feel.
Doing so is tyrannical.
You are free to think differently. That's cool.
I am not into dming you either no worries.
No it's not the point and if it is, then you are incorrectly applying it.
Again, I am not saying you can't be attracted. I am saying be mindful in how you show that attraction. At no point am I controlling how you feel and for the most part I'm not even telling you how to think. I am just saying think of more than just yourself and understand the woman you are staring at is a person. It is someone's daughter, mother, sister, but at no point should she be made to feel uncomfortable under your leering eyes
What you don't understand being on that side of it is we don't know which one of you will be the one to escalate it further and try to act on those thoughts you are fantasizing over. In some ways, we may not want to be noticed like that. Yes, there are times where we do like attention and to have someone do a double take at us, but staring takes it into another category. Suddenly you go from a guy who is attracted to the guy I don't want to be left alone with.
That's the kind of effect it has. If you want to be that creepy guy nobody wants to be around without others there as a barrier then just keep staring.
If not, then just be more cognizant of looking vs staring.
I understand the fear that someone may act upon an attraction in a despicable manor. And I will gladly condemn anyone who does so.
However with all due respect I don't think you see the Men's perspective here.
One can lose their job by just being accused of staring. In corporate America there is little to no due process, so this means in essence you will have to find another job on the mere accusation of a crime that, I think, we both agree is a thought crime.
I do not think that is fair.
Nor do I think that is offering equal rights to both sexes.
It is definitely creating toxic cultures in work environments where men live in constant fear of a false allegations. The Mike Pence rule came from this environment.
@Ez-Bri-Z i agree with you about most of this stuff, however, "staring" at someone isn't harassment unless it is in some way directly and overtly threatening. its just really really rude and in poor taste. on the other hand, when you put the goods on display then don't complain when someone checks them out. yoga pants... just... I don't walk around in clothes that display my body that overtly, and i think its in poor taste. I like the view, just think that yoga pants should be worn for yoga. I think guys running around in speedos are in the same poor taste unless they are actually swimming, but you don't see much of that, do you?
actually no, I was stating that it is in poor taste. It is not a slippery slope at all. I once looked at a Monet for almost an hour, but never harassed it. If I admire live beauty in the same way, with respect and appreciation, I don't feel much differently about it. Any form of intentional physical assault or intimidation is quite different. You are effectively comparing aspirin to cocaine and saying that aspirin is a gateway drug. Actually that would be better than your analysis, because you are effectively presuming that touching invariably follows looking, which is not true. Find a better argument.
Ok, let's pick apart your thought process here.
You are telling me that one or more of these options are true
¹"I don't look at women as a person, but more like fine art of a carnal desire within me and so this excuses my leering at them."
²"I am not to be blamed for my inability to control my own head and eyes. Clearly it is the woman's fault for having the right genes stashed in the right jeans."
³"I am unconcerned about how my behavior makes others feel. All I care about is fuel for my spank bank later."
⁴"I am ok with revictimizing women who may have most likely in their lives been sexually assaulted in some manner or worse things. Me staring should make then feel appreciated for how pretty they are despite the previous guys saying the same thing and taking it further than the woman ever wanted."
If I want you to stare at me like a piece of art, I will go hang a photo of my ass up at the Louvre. If I am walking down the street trying to go from point A to point B, then just be a civil human being. Quickly look if you must, but don't stare at me like an exhibit.
I don't say NOTHING about "rape". I'm talking about looking. Just. Looking. Just looking at some point in space. Nothing. Literally NOTHING happens, but everything what does happens only in your dreams.
You think I dream about rape? That's kind of sick of you to suggest.
Then if you are looking at nothing in space, literally nothing, then it won't bother you to just stare at the sun for a while? Maybe a brick wall? Why not pull your shirt up over your head and stare at the fabric?
You and I both know why you won't do that. It is because you have every intent of staring at a woman's body, reducing her down to her physical attributes and forgetting there is an actual person there that your beady little eyes is creeping out.
@ez-bri-z No, I don't think, I'm sure that you do sexualize other person's eyes and their thoughts in advance. If they don't even do anything, just because it has seemed to you.
Yeah, I do look at the sun when I'm outside. Just squinting (did it on yesterday evening), I do sometimes look at walls or at a tree because I like the texture and the appearance.
If I'm looking I'm just looking. Maybe because it's interesting to explore, maybe because I just like the beauty. But in your paranoid opinion it's 'rape' by default. You lack logic.
No, I am just telling you to continue to stare into the sun when a pretty girl walks by and then you wouldn't have a problem.
As for me thinking it is rape to look, well, not even addressing it beyond calling it absurd.
Also, I now realize your reading comprehension appears to be impaired. Is there anything else I can do to make this easier for you? Should I use smaller words? Draw pictures? I have made it into Dr Seuss stories before. Finger painting?
Just let me know how else I can make this easier for you to understand because you seem to be really dense.
Sometimes I do and I don't care about who walks around me and keep looking at the sun, or venus (etc) because I like how beautiful it is. Sometimes I look at woman because I like how beautiful she is. Sometimes I'm looking at ceiling because I just want to do it. It's my choice to which direction I have rotate my head, so don't order me, okay? I do NOthing except just rotating my head and your 'uncomfortableness' exists only in your paranoid mind.
Well, uncomfortable or not, if you stare (and I dont mind if you look, I mean actually stare), don't be surprised if you draw an unpleasant reaction that will make you regret choosing that direction. I don't mean me, because I thankfully will never have to meet you in my life.
Whether you want to admit it or not, we are people and not exhibits for you to gawk at.
@ez-bri-z Well, uncomfortable or not, if you dress lewdly (and I dont mind if you wear just modest summer clothes, I mean actually lewd), don't be surprised if you draw an unpleasant reaction that will make you regret choosing your clothes. I don't mean me, because I thankfully will never have to meet you in my life.
Whether you want to admit it or not, we are people living and society so respect others and don't show errbody your sex characteristics.
@ez-bri-z You're twisting the facts. If you were a little more attentive you would probably noticed - I said that rape is a disgusting crime. I had said that anybody can rotate his head in any direction he wants.
But you decided to offend me cause you're already emotionally overloaded. Just calm down a bit.
In my last message I said NOTHING about rape. And you saw "rape" just in "process of looking".
But actually I just copied your message. Nuff said.
Lol look at you trying to dictate to me what I feel. Pathetic.
In the end it is as simple as this, I can wear what I want as long as it is legal. You can take a glimpse of you need to, but turn it into full blown staring or following or catcalling and you are the one who has the issue with authorities, not me.
Not sure why you feel entitled to dictate to me emotions or how I should dress but my guess is you haven't dealt with women very much. You keep making it sound like harmless glancing. If you were paying attention at all during this exchange you'd clearly see I have mentioned staring each time. For all I care you can rotate your head 360 degrees and I wouldn't care.
Staring makes people uncomfortable. Until you have experienced it from a woman's perspective where it is an everyday occurrence and some guys take it too far, you can never understand the discomfort and fear it can cause. What is worst of all is your predatory mind set of "dress conservatively or you deserve it". That isn't how it works. No means no. You are not entitled to a woman's body by any means.
@ez-bri-z I don't tell you that you have to wear what we want. I've written this just to show you how ABSURD your logic with 'looking' is. Don't you get the irony?
@ez-bri-z I think what you don't understand is this is a rights issue.
How you or women feel in general is irrelevant.
We do not have the right to say you can not have an abortion.
Do you not think that at least some of the men in question wanted to be a father?
However they could not be the father because it's your body and choice.
We are attempting to assert the same right.
You do not have the right to say where we can move our heads or eyes simply because you are uncomfortable or afraid.
If you can presume such a privilege why not just ban men from all public places, because after all we are big and scary.
If you think this is an overblown concept... This was suggested by a UK MP because there was one person out of a town of 100,000 was committing serial rape.
A True feminist realizes that men are people too with equal rights. The gaze theory asserts a privilege that is untenable.
Men are entitled to body autonomy if women are.
D-did you just try to claim equal rights by denying a woman hers? Did I read that correctly?
"I should be able to make a woman feel threatened because I can't control my libido. Muh rights are being infringed!"
Tell you what, I'll agree to you being able to treat me like a sexual fetish for your libido by staring ALL day long if you want and no matter how uncomfortable I am I will accept it. If I get to aim a loaded gun at you for as long as I want to the entire time you are doing it. I mean it is my right after all. I should have autonomy of where I aim my gun at. If it happens to be at someone staring at me and making me feel uncomfortable then so be it? This also helps in case I see you make a move towards me in a threatening manner.
Deal?
Your claiming the same thing. That was my point...
All that sexual fetish stuff is in YOUR mind not reality.
The man is just looking in a particular direction you have zero clue what he is thinking or even looking at you...
If you feel threatened it is your right to use a gun in self defense.
I don't think we will ever agree.
sigh
I don't understand what you aren't getting.
We don't know what is going on in their head and that's the scary part. It is absolutely a reality. Here in the US alone, 1 in 6 women have either been a victim of attempted or completed rape.
1 in 6. That is literally a game of Russian roulette. I don't like those odds just from walking down the street. How can I tell your creepy ass stare vs the next guy who decides to take it a step further?
It's not a fetish in my mind. This IS a woman's reality. You can't grasp that because you haven't lived it. You haven't tried to just exist on social media and have your DM's just randomly get dick pics in them. Have messages of what they would do to you if they were with you in person. You can't possibly understand it if you haven't lived it. So PLEASE don't try to dictate down to me what is rational or not.
1 in 6.
Guess what... 1 in 6 men are sexually assaulted as well. 1 in 6.
1in6.org/get-information/the-1-in-6-statistic/
Ok, even if I am buying that and don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting it I just want actual police statistics behind it... wanna guess what gender their abusers were in a lot if not a majority of these cases is?
So tell me again why people shouldn't worry when a man stares at them too long.
Tell me it isn't a reality that this many people are being sexually assaulted and raped.
Tell me it is all in my head that this could happen to me or any other woman or man for that matter.
I'm not saying all men are bad. Far from it. I know a lot of guys who are excellent friends, fathers, etc. These are the ones who stand up to those who make women uncomfortable with catcalls, staring, intimidating pick up tactics and more. They are the ones who have to suffer for the idiocy of those who can't control their libido.
So which is it? Are you backing me up on the 1in 6 thing and agree that it is a problem that we can fix by calling out guys who do it and making them accountable or are you still riding that "my body, my choice" train?
I'll just say this, if you choose the latter then you are helping to normalize something where a lot of guys took that choice away from women on their bodies.
well since the majority of people that abuse a child are female. www.statista.com/.../
maybe we should be afraid of women?
Also... what kind of leap in logic is that anyway? This was a complete strawman argument considering the topic was about men leering at women. You have failed to really defend your case adequately and instead went "well what about guys being raped?" When I said, yeah thats still guys doing that you said "what about the kids?"
Those two have nothing to do with the topic at hand and although both are extremely tragic, the fact you couldn't stay on topic let's me know you have really run out of steam in defense of guys staring at women and making them uncomfortable so I suppose my work here is done.
https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/canstats.pdf page 6 for government stats.
My objection to the guys staring argument is that it is completely subjective and based on the 'victim' being offended. (ie it is a crime if someone is offended). The problem with that line of reasoning is that many people have irrational fears. And given the ambiguous definition of this crime... This dictate is tantamount to demanding men to look at their feet when a women enters the room. That is not equal rights and is in fact quite the opposite.
Nothing you have said changes my mind on the subject. In fact you have proven that women are very irrational indeed. Define staring versus looking exactly without ambiguity and I may agree with you. Currently the definition you have given is... you make me feel creeped out... Well my very presence as a Man creeps you out from the context above... because after all I could do violence or worse. Way less than 1 percent of men are rapists, please don't judge the 99 percent by the actions of the 1 percent.
Nope. I have no problem with you or any other man on the whole. It is when your specific actions affect me negatively that we have a problem.
Whether you agree or not about it being a crime is inconsequential. It can still be classified as one and that is all that matters.
You can say all you want of it being an irrational fear, but that doesn't make it correct. You haven't lived the experience so you can't really speak to it competently. All you know is "well, I would never do that so they are just overreacting." That isn't how it works.
If you burn your hand on a stove are you just going to keep putting your hand on every stove you see assuming the next one won't burn you?
If you get bit by a snake in tall grass are you just going to keep stomping through tall grass because the fear of it happening again is irrational?
If you say you would then you are either a liar or have 0 survival instincts.
Simple Google search could have saved you the time on this one.
Key Difference: Looking refers to the activity of directing eyes on the object. Visual perception is obtained about the object by the act of looking. On the other hand, staring refers to the act of looking but specifically for a long time and in a fixed gaze. ... Staring refers to the action of looking but with fixed eyes.
Again, you say "don't lump 99% with the 1%" and that is the problem with your mindset. It is that 1% that is the problem. If I have been the victim of a sexual assault or rape, then idgaf if your intentions are purely your libido not being controlled vs your impulse control being controlled. The point is you are staring and that puts people in a fight or flight situation unnecessarily.
The United States has a rape rate of 27.3. As in many other countries, rape is grossly underreported in the United States due to victim shaming, fear of reprisal, fear of family knowing, cases not being taken seriously by law enforcement, and possible lack of prosecution for the perpetrator. Only 9% of rapists in the US get prosecuted, and only 3% of rapists will spend a day in prison. 97% of rapists in the United States will walk free.
So of that 1% if we take it across the world of male population is still 4 million guys.
Those are just the known numbers.
Finally, let me put this in a manner of which you might better understand. You walk up to a urinal trough. You start relieving yourself when another guy stands right next to you despite there being plenty of space otherwise. He looks down and whips his out and catches a glimpse of your junk. Then for whatever reason, he just keeps looking at it. The whole time you are going.
He then leans in with a smile and says "don't worry bro, I am just enjoying a Monet."
My point is that rules like what you propose have been done in the past. And they lead to segregated societies. Case in point Puritan America or various Arab Muslim states. After implementing said strict laws requiring Men to look at their feet when a women enters the room for instance... it is not long before men get to together and say... lets have a space without women so I can move my head and eyes freely. If that is the direction you want to move society more power to ya...
Also that 27 percent figure is complete garbage. If you are saying 27 percent of the us population are rapist... that would be around 60 percent of the male population... simply garbage. If that were the case 60 percent of males would simply take over the government by force (that number is easily enough to do that) and institute whatever laws they see fit.
You provided no citation for or context for 27.3 rape rate... what are you measuring? If it is not a percentage of the population what is it?
I am giving you examples of societies that have criminalized a 'gaze' or 'glimpse' like you say is in place or are proposing. And I am showing you the results of said rules. It is not worth the price to be paid in my opinion.
Men are already not comfortable working with women under the threat of the current rules. The Mike Pence rule is one example of this taking place. It is not a large leap from the Mike Pence rule to segregated work places. In fact segregated women only spaces are already appearing on college campuses. In order to be equal... there will soon be men only spaces. After all Men are a minority compared to women.
To be clear... I do not want to look at any part of your damned body. I want to be free from false allegations of errant 'gazes' or 'glimpses' which are completely subjective and prone for abuse. Unless you are saying no women ever abuses a sexual harassment rule...
If you don't understand rate, I'd suggest you go back to school or research. In this case it is per 100k people.
We aren't in a society criminalizing a glimpse. I haven't suggested it either. Another strawman argument from you.
There are more men than women in the world, but in the US it skews towards women. Men shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable around women just as women shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable around men. The problem is that 1% we talked about earlier, they are the ones who actually went through with it. That number who stare or catcall is way higher than 1%. Men make women uncomfortable. Women complain and fight back. Now men are acting like victims because they aren't allowed to gawk anymore. The men who know how to treat women like people and not objects to be appreciated for their beauty, like you suggest you should be allowed to do, need to call people like yourself out so that nobody has to worry.
Again, this WHOLE conversation wasn't about a glimpse or gaze being an actual problem, it was about staring which is completely different. Well that and the fact that once again, guys without a clue trying to blame feminists for all their problems. I am not blaming all men for being predators, I am blaming the ones who are making it harder for us to feel comfortable as being the problem for both men and women alike.
If you're targeting a gun at me it's not the same. Because you are creating a dangerous situation, you are jeopardizing other human's life. There might be a coincidence - you might stumble, you might accidentally have a crump or a spasm in your forearm or hand and pull the trigger. And due to the accident you can kill someone.
However when somebody rotates their head and eyes towards some direction there's no tragic case can happen.
If no one looked at them/ignored them they would probably be pissed. It goes beyond the "It's my body, I'll wear what I want." What they really want is attention. You see it all the time on here in the "How do I look?" section.
It depends on. Why do men freak out when gay men look at them or cat call them? There is also difference between looking at someone for a short time and looking at someone like a pig. The second one is disrespectful. It is ok to look at attractive people but dont look at them for hours like a pig. I am just curious if you were ok when random men look at your girlfriend/wife like a pig. You would be beaten up if you do that in turkey since turkish men ain't cucks
What complete horseshit. Did you seriously just compare gay men hitting on straight men to men sexualizing women?
If you get annoyed when gay men stare at you and catcall, dont catcall or stare like a pig at women, fucktard. I mention gay men so fucktards like you can have emphaty, piece of shit
Wait oh sorrry
I mention gay men so that some men understand the women's situation since some men dont mind getting sexualized by women but they hate ot when gay men do it. Omg i am sorry i misunderstand you. Omghgg i am sorry
Omg no i am sorry.
😳😳😳😳😳😥
I am really sorry. I completely misunderstand you. At first i thougt you are one of these creep guys. Omgggh i am sorry
You’re a crazy bitch. I never once condoned catcalling. I entirely agree there’s an appropriate way to admire a girl’s beauty or sexiness. Comparing it to gay men hitting on straight men is completely outrageous. You gotta do better than that if you wanna be taken seriously.
Wtf is your problem. I apologize. I explain why i mention gay men. Just explain your point better. Why it is outrageous. again there are many men who even dont mind getting sexually harrassed by on gag. They dont think it is degrading but it is degrading when guys look at them like a pig.
You are too naive, if you seriously think comparing it with gsy men is not ok. It is a perfect comparison, otherwise many guys on gag dont understand our situation
You are the crazy bitch. If you continue to insult me i will block you. You can explain your point without insulting
" I never once condoned catcalling." Do i said you did that? No
" I entirely agree there’s an appropriate way to admire a girl’s beauty or sexiness." I agree
"Comparing it to gay men hitting on straight men is completely outrageous. You gotta do better than that if you wanna be taken seriously." I get taken more seriously, otherwise 4 people would not like my opinion. you dont get it.
Women feel disgusted when they get stared like a pig by men. I know enough women who dont feel the same when they get cat called/stared by girls. We can't control how to feel. So it makes sense to compare it with gay men since both men and women dont mind it so much when they get cat called/stared by women but they feel disrespected when some creepy men stare at them like a pig. I think it has to do with biology. Males chase women and females get chased in the nature. So when women stare at you like a pig you feel like that she fell prey to you on purpose. This does not justify anything but this may explain why feel like this.
You insulted me first, I just fired back at you. Unless you meant fucktard as a term of endearment. I couldn’t care less if you block me dear. Additionally, 4 people liking your ridiculous opinion means nothing to me. It’s far from a perfect comparison, and anyone with a hint of intelligence knows that.
I explain myself thousand times. You can't read due to your lack of intelligence
I don't though. Actually I find it kinda of flattering. I'm not gay but knowing someone thinks I'm attractive is a huge confidence boost.
Interesting.
@Kingofkings1992 she is right, just like I've always told guys that minimalize the severity of rape that they should consider a guy doing it to them.
Classic strawman argument. Comparing gay men hitting on straight men is not the same as men staring or cat calling women.
You've made amazing arguments!
@Louistuman19 stfu. I am done with repeating myself. Read my other posts. Dont be naive. I had to compare with gay men. Would it better for you when i compare it with very old unattractive women?
Please send me a follow request. I'd love to follow you.
I already follow you and i accidentally unfollow you. I send you new follow request
@hi_it_is_me123 thats still a strawman argument.
It is a simile. I did not mean to generalize. It is anecdotal. I know many guys who hate it. This simile may help some guys to understand our Situation So what you say is bs. I also dont why you only focused on this part
@hi_it_is_me123 No its not a simile. Its a strawman. You need to go look up the definition of a simile.
Man wtf. Stop being pathetic. I try to make a point and i explain. Many people understand it. This was directed at some guys. Maybe i should forlulate it better. But who cares. Just fuck off. The whole question is retarded. It is not the same of course but this comparison/simile is there to make a point. I dont want to continue this conversation.
Let me a alone
@Kingofkings1992 exactly about the gay comparison. Fucking ridiculous.
Yes yes yes we all know about the huge rainbow movement. But most people are NOT gay. An aggressive creepy gay man is taking a huge risk and he knows it.
You are the ridiculous one. This is how women feel. Stupid idiots like only understand it when it happens to them by gay men. If a creepy cat call me, my gay friend will care of him
I swear rapists, sexual harrassee should be forced to be a prostitute for gay men
If you hate getting cat called or stared by gay men, then dont do it to women. I will block everyone who keep spamming me.
Oh sorry it was on accident @realDonaldTrumpJr interesting point by the way
@Kingofkings1992 , why is her comparison so outrageous?
It's kinda the same.
@Tstrbrainer maybe they are right. I mentioned so that some guys understand women. If they dont like getting cat-called/stared by gay men, they should not do it to women in my opinion
Treat people the way you want to be treated. What's so hard to understand?
I agree with you
Talking about "glimpsing", a highschool guy walks in on me changing and every one, including mom said it "isn't" a big of a deal since I was younger than him, and his cousin so he won't extactly be "aroused by the sight"... To this, I'm sure you guys will pull out the old visual creature bs on me, but only I know that I'm still scared of changing clothes in front of anyone.
It's in the look.
Wtf. If you are younger than him, then it is a problem. He is probably a young adult. I would not allow any guy who is no kid watch my daughter changing her clothes. I know guys who watch porn with 12-13. Teenage guys ain't innocent
In India, they're considered so
No, I don't see any reason for them to be offended even though your comparison might make a lot of people uncomfortable. You stated a relevant comparison..
And by the way, guys, even younger than 12 are not innocent either, even if they don't watch porn 😉
Don't add a wink in a serious discussion, please. It's rude.
Okay.
I think there is a sweet spot in the brain to balance your thoughts and not look at every well shaped woman as something to tingle your dick a little. I think there is a level of maturity and security to reach in yourself to treat one another as equal components. The locker room talk from both men and women is the most debilitating setback in social structure. And even though it can be considered harmless, it's just pointless immaturity. I think we can all do better, but getting pissed without proper explanation never does any good either.
The problem is that it's almost never a "glimpse."
Instead of taking a quick look, the guy makes a big show of turning directly to the woman and staring directly at her so that she and the whole world knows he's checking her out and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to make him stop.
It's a pathetic display of power. Not surprisingly, it almost always seems to be done by laborers and other low-education jobs -- men with little actual power in their lives who try to compensate for it with this bullshit.
The women are just collateral damage in these guys' struggles with their own impotence.
So if a 6'5", buff dude were to glimpse or gaze at you that way, you'd feel totally comfortable, yes? If men larger and stronger than you constantly stared at your ass when you walked by, you'd never feel even the slightest twinge of worry or discomfort?
I don't care till the one opens their mouth or starts following me or violating my private borders.
Very simple math.
Some people that have mental health problems and have severe insecurity develop attitude to have the right to control their environment. even how people should think.
It's mental health problem for them.
Many of them tries to make their point right of view right and any opposing wrong. even people that question and confront is wrong.
Some tries to make them look like ridiculous wrong. pull absurdum...
They only see what they want to see/hear because their emotions make them both narrow minded and even twist what they see/hear.
In some cases do they look like they have some sort of personality disorder.
No feminist is upset if you simply stare it’s the Gazing that’s a whole issue, men are creepy ass shit and will follow you or even kill you or rape you and that’s why it’s not something we welcome, fuck men; we value our lives and selves enough to not force ourselves to interact with men or pretend we’re okay with them staring us down when we’re not and it’s Alarming.
The only way I get if it’s acceptable if you’re trying to “catch eye contact” with them and see if they smile and are approachable other than that nope.
You're just paranoid in your own mind. Head and eyes are just part of the body so don't tell anyone to which direction they must rotate his body okay?
Yea that’s why I was almost shot pregnant in public for rejecting a 60+ year old tweeter as a 17 year old.
No I’m not paranoid & most women aren’t either, most of us learn eventually how foul and disgusting men.
No if you’re just STARiNG at a woman on public making her uncomfortable you’re doing something wrong and deserve to be called the fuck out for it and out on blast like women do today :)
When a woman wears short or lewd clothes so her secondary sex characteristics are out she makes ME feel uncomfortable and I don't want her to appear in my field of vision in this appearance
You can't control the rotating angle of my head and eyes either.
@roxi-2ox Nobody can punish anyone for that, Police in Russia will just laugh cause there's no crime itself.
I'm not following nor chasing anybody, I'm not getting closer to them, I'm not touching them, I'm not saying anything to them, I'm not taking photos/videos, nothing vitriolic or lewd, etc..
So there's doesn't have to be a law for men to consider a woman dressing lewdly as a w... harlot.
It has, unfortunately.
Nobody is telling you how to move, dress or walk.
Have you not heard of MANspreading?
Also moving one's head to look in a particular direction IS controlling how one moves.
Feeling uncomfortable because someone looks in your direction is a YOU problem. The line between look and stare is massively ambiguous and prone to abuse.
Because their fucking emotional wrecks that know their doing bad things they feel it but they don’t want to feel it so they have to invent some bullshit to stop the bad feelings… these feelings are called regret and if you think feminists hate being judged by men imagine how much they hate it when they silently judge themselves the same lmao
Can you show examples where this has happened?
Also, if someone like this does indeed find it uncomfortable due to whatever reason (example: they or someone close to them had been assaulted in the past) what is so hard about it to just not stare. One or two glimpses are fine, but dont get mad if they call you a creep for staring at them for a minute straight.
I dont think its a feminist reaction. Most women are repulsed by advances from men they find unattractive. Theyre uncomfortable because when they like you they will give you signals to talk to them. If she isn't attracted to you it'll make her think she needs to work more on her resting bitch face
I sure don’t. It becomes harassment when we tell them to stop staring at our tits and they continue to do so. But gazes, glimpses or even checking someone out (provided they haven’t been told not to) is not in the least bit sexually harassing
It is a crock of crap. Nothing wrong with seeing any part of a woman's body. Most Feminists look like male truck drivers and no one would want to look at any part of them. They are jealous that good looking women, (and that include pretty much ALL women other than the Feminists) get attention.
It's harassment if you are consistently looking a woman up and down until she is uncomfortable. I don't know why men like to play dumb as if they don't know what to do or what not to do. You guys know what's inappropriate but like to test the waters. Instead of continuously gazing like a weirdo or psycho path approach her and introduce yourself
@Saske_Uchihaa believe what you want but just know you'll be behind bars getting wanked in the in 🍑 by Bubba. Not my problem
@cleankix8 exactly!! I don't understand what part of being normal don't these guys get. They're pretty much telling on themselves in the comments
The guys who disliked are incels
@Lemondrop699 absolutely and want to make excuses for their poor behavior
I have no idea, but I do know that if you totally ignore women when they have dressed to be attractive it annoys the hell out of them, if they walk passed a building/construction site and there is no cat calls or wolf whistles they get pissed even though they say that its objectification or/and sexism.
Guys cannot get it right either way, we're always in the wrong.
With your logic it’s ok for pedophiles to look at children inappropriately cause it’s their eyes their choice? 🗿
That's called a strawman argument.
@TruthBringer nah, it’s called a joke
A joke can be a strawman lol
In a way yes, we can't control their thoughts.
Then stupid answers get a stupid reply. Oh don't worry i'm just following your logic. I pretty much agree with the fact that your logic is a strawman argument.
Ok if you're joking then i'm joking too. Then what? It's so easy to contradict everything in the end
You can have it since you're begging for it from the start
Great to know your logic backfired.
Staring at someone in a hostile or sexually hungry way can be harassment
Because just like LGBQ / just like BLMS all these groups are made to destroy masculinity and men.
Any society without men won’t be hard to conquer or destroy.
I trash feminism hard!
And I watch them look for ways to get offended then I say “wtf are you goanna go?”
So pleasurable to watch
They don't. They just want a way to put men down. The thing is, if men started diverting their gaze instead, feminists would make that sexual harassment as well.
I don’t. I don’t notice who’s looking at me because I am not looking at anyone.
Well - staring bluntly at someone can be a bit too much (though it in fact is a matter of how good looking you are - but girls in relationships who don't feel loyal but want to appear as such - complain even about a good looking guy gazing).
For the construction workers/builders - staring at someone pretty is offensive to her, yes. She might have a degree or simply value intellectual or emotional work over the physical - something those people struggle to understand.
Most feminists aren't that far gone, most are more reasonable than they get credit for due to a small subsection of idiots/loudmouths who just want attention. The ones you are talking about fall into the latter category.
Ok this is a simple sign of guilt from masterbation. Women basically assault the box weekly for sure. Then act like nothing has happen. Just imagine having a big O then carry on with your own business then the gaze from a dude. The feeling must be horrific.
Because some guys don´t just take a glimpse they stare.
Would you like to be stared at for a longer time?
I don't care until someone comments me e. g. in a vitriolic or starts to behave agressively.
vitriolic way*
I wouldn't mind being stared at for a long time. And even if I did, I don't have any right to tell someone they can't look at me. How entitled and spoiled do you have t be to tell someone that? There have been people who have recorded me on camera without my permission in the park, and all I could do was not make a big deal out of it, because I knew it would only make the problem worse. After about 7 seconds, they moved onto someone else. Men are used to this kind of thing. Special snowflake, entitled, First World women, are not.
This question, while I think is valid, is going to turn into a forum of guys cherry picking examples of hypocrisy as it if disproves the whole notion of societal pressure based on gendered expectations.
Try to phrase your questions more as a discussion rather than an accusation if you want actual discussion on it rather than a parade of angry people.
Feminists are mostly man-hating dykes, so they’ll do or say anything to make a man look bad. They can’t be reasoned with. The rest of them are just dumb, brainwashed useless puppets to be used to further the destruction of society through their godless, Marxist agendas.
Extremists rarely make sense, plus squally are massive hypocrites too.
Im a people watcher, so looks don't bother me, but the cat-calling does, but i normally ignore it & carry on with my day.
It's the woman version of "I don't like how you look. Time to die."
There is no reason. Just being an ass about it. The woman version.
Feminists are angry women who basically hate men - so anything they can complain about, they will use.
It's actually quite IRONIC, and almost FUNNY!! What Straight guy looks at them?
Maybe wishing, hoping someone might look, when nobody wants to, or cares!
They've probably had a bad experience and don't want it repeated. Has nothing to do with being a feminist. If this doesn't effect you, mind your business.
Might be they think their poo don't stink, their snobs, they think they are better than us. They think it's demeaning to feel feminine and sexy by a guy.
Everything for them is harassment. Or sexism. Or anything that affects them in any way
Staring at someone’s chest or such can most certainly be a creepy action. Obviously, it’s not formally sexual harassment, but creepy nonetheless.
I don't know some people are just a bit mad
It depends on how discreet you are about it, they think if you look at women thinking they are hot you are "dehumanizing women".
I think it's stupid also, but I am always discreet when checking out females.
My body my choice obviously doesn't apply to men. Women can be so sensitive and 'creepy' is the word that best describes their mindset; completely subjective reasoning and anxious of intent.
If feminism is about equality then it has to admit the equality.
Any person's body is this person's choice.
It depends on a lot of things. But most people try to push you and see how far they can go. If you ignore the crazy shit they have no power over you.
We don’t, it’s the cat Calling that comes after. Just appreciate and marvel in our presence, don’t cross the line :).
As long as they aren't openly staring at a chick's boobs, or staring 'down there', I really don't see much of a problem.. Unless they're a stalker.
Ewww this full of creeps, Trumpsters and fat-right extremists
That's all I have to say
*this site is full of
**far-right
That's mostly a stereotype but it makes them feel insecure IF you're clearly staring at their tits. Otherwise... meh.
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