Texas has enacted a law banning abortion at 6 weeks or more. What do you think of this?

[msc545]

Updates

+1 y

The law also allows virtually anyone to sue the abortionist at the clinic or anyone who aids a woman in getting an abortion.

[Not_Average]

I agree with it. Religious beliefs aside, killing a baby/fetus, or stopping a human life just seems so barbaric to me. It’s a strange phenomenon that this is accepted by society. There are so many methods of birth control available at this point to where it seems almost inexcusable.

[OlderAndWiser]

I am opposed to abortion on demand for the convenience of those who are too lazy or too stupid to use birth control, so I have no problem with the concept of this bill.

[On_cloud_wine]

I agree with you completely, but what about women who can’t have children because of their health? Like having a baby could kill them. One friend I know says she can’t use birth control for her health either but I don’t know the details of that too well

[Juxtapose]

Yeah but what about when the pill fails?

Forcing somebody to carry a baby is fucking evil.

[OlderAndWiser]

@On_cloud_wine She can't use a diaphragm or an IUD or oral contraceptives or injectable contraceptives or spermicides?

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose Killing an innocent child who is waiting to be born is not evil? If those are your morals, then I understand your conclusion.

[On_cloud_wine]

If the pill fails” when you have sex, you risk getting pregnant overall. I still agree with older n wiser on that situation. Maybe wear a condim too

[On_cloud_wine]

I’ll ask her and see if she even thought about it. She’s not dumb, but she’s known to lie and make excuses

[Juxtapose]

@OlderAndWiser and having the government force a woman to have a baby isn't evil?

[On_cloud_wine]

@Juxtapose nobody forced her to have sex. Take extra precaution. And there’s always that morning pill too. Ugh this topic disgusts me. I’m done

[Juxtapose]

@On_cloud_wine Yeah, it disgusts me too.

It disgusts me to know that people care more about a zygote or a fetus than an adult woman.

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose t disgusts me to know that someone refers to an unborn child as a zygote or fetus and dismiss its life as meaningless.

[Juxtapose]

"Rigorous scientific studies have found that the connections necessary to transmit signals from peripheral sensory nerves to the brain, as well as the brain structures necessary to process those signals, do not develop until at least 24 weeks of gestation. i Because it lacks these connections and structures, the fetus does not even have the physiological capacity to perceive pain until at least 24 weeks of gestation."

You're going to call a thing that can't even think and feel human? A person? Should I also feel bad for all the sperm cells I kill every day?

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose "Most reports on the possibility of fetal pain have focused on developmental neuroscience. Reports often suggest that the cortex and intact thalamocortical tracts are necessary for pain experience. Given that the cortex only becomes functional and the tracts only develop after 24 weeks, many reports rule out fetal pain until the final trimester. Here, more recent evidence calling into question the necessity of the cortex for pain and demonstrating functional thalamic connectivity into the subplate is used to argue that the neuroscience cannot definitively rule out fetal pain before 24 weeks. We consider the possibility that the mere experience of pain, without the capacity for self reflection, is morally significant. We believe that fetal pain does not have to be equivalent to a mature adult human experience to matter morally, and so fetal pain might be considered as part of a humane approach to abortion."

https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/1/3

Once again, when medicine and politics intersect, politics always wins. "Scientists" have agendas and biases. Listen to whoever you want to believe.

[Juxtapose]

That is just scientists being honest and trying to find the truth. All that link you sent me really says is they can't completely rule out the possibility of fetal pain.

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose If you think that all scientists are just dedicated to finding the truth and political beliefs do not influence them, you are incredibly naive.

[Juxtapose]

The scientific method takes care of your concerns via international peer review.

You can't lie about making an anti-aging potion because your results have to be replicable. You can't lie about how gravity works because someone is going to check your math, etc.

The scientific method is beautiful and tears apart bullshit.

[Juxtapose]

The world as we know it would not be functionable if science was not trustworthy.

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose Again, you are naive. Read the article cited below. Here is an excerpt:

"The investigation was conducted by a team of researchers led by Piotr Sorokowski, of the University of Wroclaw in Poland, and described in Nature by co-researcher Katarzyna Pisanski, who is affiliated both with Wroclaw and with the University of Sussex in the U. K. The goal of the sting was to expose so-called predatory journals — science publications that charge fees to publish science, accepting all comers with all manner of papers provided there’s money to be made. And the way the world of academia is set up, there are plenty of desperate scientists for the hucksters to woo."

time.com/4706774/science-journals-fraud-study/

[OlderAndWiser]

Or this one:

"Sato, a bone researcher at a hospital in southern Japan, had fabricated data for dozens of clinical trials published in international journals. . . . Three years earlier, Japanese stem cell scientist Yoshiki Sasai had hanged himself in the stairwell of the RIKEN Center for Developmental Biology in Kobe after he was caught up in a stem cell scandal."

www.science.org/.../researcher-center-epic-fraud-remains-enigma-those-who-exposed-him

[Juxtapose]

The exceptions do not disprove the norm. No system is flawless but peer review weeds out the frauds in due time.

[OlderAndWiser]

Or try this one, which discusses the motivation for research fraud:

www.tandfonline.com/.../13538322.2020.1820126

Or this article, which discusses an attempt at "fact checking" scientific publications and the response of the scientific community:

www.theguardian.com/.../high-tech-war-on-science

[OlderAndWiser]

Here's an article to give you a perspective from Australia:

documents.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/pubs/92prom.html

or China:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43152270

Another about Australian research fraud:

theconversation.com/research-fraud-the-temptation-to-lie-and-the-challenges-of-regulation-58161

or Dutch science fraud:

journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1745691612460687

Do you need any more citations?

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose

[Juxtapose]

Like I said, exceptions. The vast majority of scientists just do their jobs & weed out bad faith colleagues.

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose It's not a problem. . . I don't believe it. . . okay, but it's not a big problem. . . walks away whistling in the dark.

[Juxtapose]

I'm sure my biologist friend will get a chuckle out of this when I show her.

[OlderAndWiser]

@Juxtapose Go for it. Doesn't change the facts. FYI, I did research in biomolecular genetics when I was an undergrad. I've been there and seen it from the inside.

[OlderAndWiser]

Thanks for MHO!

[OlderAndWiser]

@On_cloud_wine If having a baby could kill her, why wouldn't she just go ahead and have a bilateral tubal ligation?

[msc545]

She could but she won't

[OlderAndWiser]

That makes it difficult to feel much compassion for her position.

[BCA6010]

The ban itself is good... Not a big fan of letting basically anyone insert themselves into a legal matter that they didn't have any part in, however. That role should really be spearheaded by fathers or family who wanted to keep the babies.

It's very likely that the supreme court will strike it down. Only two of its conservative justices are adamantly anti-abortion, and they will likely use Roe v Wade as their precedent even though Roe v Wade itself doesn't really hold water because it uses "right to privacy" as its justification even though no such part of the constitution actually exists. On that note, I'm not convinced that the alleged biggest supporters of abortion access actually want abortion access... With a majority in the house under their control, and almost 30% of Republicans being pretty squishy or even supportive on the issue, the liberals could probably just sign an actual law protecting abortion and put the matter to rest once and for all in their favor. It seems they'd rather keep it an issue for their own gains, however.

[Stoner710]

I think it should be 1 week this your have apmany ways of not getting pregnant beyond the obvious don’t have sex. You have condoms you have the pill you can also use a morning after pill as a back up. Killing someone isn’t a good option. Think what if your boss is a inconvenience to you, do you have the right to kill him/her? Of course not same logic applies to abortion

[Justneedtokno]

Unfair. They’re always trying to put laws on women’s bodies. In forcing people to be mothers when they’re not ready Or not even in a stable situation. Or have a child in a horrible situation such as rape.
people already complain about taxes and now You’re creating more problems by having women lean on the government more. Other places don’t have these problems like this

[karaspara]

Most women won't even be aware they are pregnant at 6 weeks

[Neko911]

Hate it. What's inside a women at 6 weeks to a certain date isn't a baby. It's the potential to be. Yes it sucks some women abort. But she's not aborting anything alive or that can feel. It's not this horrible thing people want it to be. It's more cruel to make a women have a baby she doesn't want, And that baby either get killed or abused by a women who doesn't want it. Or to end up in foster care and potentially be there for years with no one who wants it

[exitseven]

Just asking hare but if it is not 6 weeks, how many weeks before it becomes a person? I truly do not know.

[msc545]

@exitseven It is a person from the moment of conception. Women make excuses like this so they don't have to feel guilty about murdering it.

[exitseven]

I am not sure about this question. everyone thinks I have all the answers but with this one I do not know. At the moment of conception all we have is two cells swapping spit. I am pretty sure there is nothing close to conscious thought going on. I know Biden should not make the decision and neither should the Pope.

[msc545]

@exitseven How can you know for sure? Can you define "conscious thought"? I can't.

[exitseven]

Conscious though is me asking you how can you be sure that those two cells DO have conscious thought.

[msc545]

@exitseven How is that conscious? What exactly is consciousness?

[exitseven]

@msc545 Because it shows awareness I think.

[msc545]

@exitseven Ok, not to be a reductionist, but please tell me what "awareness" is and how you identify it?

[msc545]

Also, why is "awareness" or "consciousness" a requirement for being a person?

[exitseven]

damn, I guess a person does not need to be self aware to be alive. I do not know the answer to how far along the pregnancy to have an abortion. Six weeks is a detectable heartbeat. Maybe there should be another criteria or maybe not.

[msc545]

@exitseven I don't think it's possible to define "consciousness", "awareness", or any words like that. So the safest and most conservative thing to do is to not murder things that might grow into people.

[TrueConfection]

I knew I was pregnant long before 6 weeks. All these abortion excuses of rape and medical reasons are crap beyond 6 weeks.

[Anonymous]

It appears they are effectively banning abortion while not stating that in law. Which weakens their conviction.
If you believe abortion should be banned, then you presumably are happy.

[exitseven]

I am not sure that 6 weeks is the right amount of time but it a good way to open a dialog about it.

[NorthwestRider]

Another stupid cultural war crap why our Healthcare is the worst among developed nations

[NorthwestRider]

People should focus on the economy, Healthcare, the infrastructure, etc not what someone else is doing with their body

[Iron_Man]

Abortion should be banned always even before six weeks

[Darklydarkened]

Dumb, it probably takes 5-6 weeks for a woman to make sure she's pregnant

[NerdyAndTall]

Archaic but I'd be more worried about the whistleblower program taking effect as well

[EnglishEuropean]

As I stated elsewhere it's clearly unconstitutional and will be struck down if tested in a court of law. But that hardly matters because the law exists therefore abortion clinics in Texas will cease to operate.

[DaveToo]

There are no thumbs-down buttons or I'd hit it several times.

[Juxtapose]

We will see how long that lasts when the Supreme Court examines it lol.

[goaded]

It looks like SCOTUS is quietly choosing not to examine it, at the moment.

[Juxtapose]

@goaded Texas & other southern states have been trying to subvert the federal government at every turn for a looooong time.

It didn't work for them then, it won't work for them now. "My body, my choice" should be something they are defending anyway, since it's the only thing standing inbetween them and "the jab."

[msc545]

For the last 200 years or more.

[Rangers]

I support it, but I'm more interested in getting approval from a federal judge on other legislation that became active

[Anonymous]

all abortion should be legal except for when it is a verifiably proven rape or could kill the mother.

females now see abortion as another form of birth control which is fucked up

[OddBeMe]

Unconstitutional. And if SCOTUS doesn’t want own it that mean the Judicial Branch ain’t doing their job.

[Twalli]

It won't stop abortions. It will hurt make them more dangerous

[ToastyOats]

Thats plenty of time!

[anylolone]

It can be as early as 6 weeks. It's not six weeks.

[Anonymous]

Rednecks must be in charge 9f Texas

[msc545]

No, it's the cattle. Even Cattle get things right occasionally.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Don’t like it

[White_Boy_506]

I approve