Rape as an evolutionary adaptation/phenomenon? Your thoughts on this fact, according to evolutionary biologists?

[Anonymous]

This is NOT to say it is good or that it is justified and needs to be continued.

Just because something is evolutionary does not mean it is immutable, good, etc.

Updates

+1 y

My thoughts? Well, rape most likely served as a method of impregnating many women for hundreds to thousands of years by all sorts of men. Whether in the military, raiding force, citizen, etc. It may have been the most efficient manner of spreading ones genes/ensuring ones genes persists over lineages. As a man, you choose who you want and then proceed to take action. The woman, wouldn’t and couldn’t resist you, so forcing yourself upon her would be easy. I think tribes, countries, and other

Updates

+1 y

groups of men figured this out and used this to their advantage. It still goes on today. I think consensual sex is more a novelty today, whereas something approximating RAPE was more commonplace for the existence of humanity.

Again, this isn’t necessarily good. I’m just giving my opinion or take on a fact pill that people find generally hard to shallow

[OlderAndWiser]

Why not consider rape to be a lack of adaptation? Animals do not go on dates and get consent. A male wolf sees a female wolf, says to himself "I wanna fuck that bitch," sneaks up on her, and fucks her. If he was human, it would be called rape. Men who continue to engage in such primitive behavior are those who have NOT adapted.

[Asker]

Well, I think TODAY you would be right.

For the majority of humanity’s existence, I unfortunately think rape was the prevailing flavor in many respects in many cultures.

Even today, a lot of parts of the world aren’t as progressive in rape/sexual rights as we are in the US.

[ChrisMaster69]

Back in 2008 out in Balad air base, at approximately 2am a male walked up behind a male soldier in a guard Sanger, put his pistol against the back of his head and proceeded to rape him.

Then you have Reynhard Sinaga jailed for raping 136 men.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/06/reynhard-sinaga-jailed-life-drugging-raping-men-manchester

what’s missed in a lot of reports about armed conflict is the rape of boys by soldiers, it happened in WW2 and throughout history.

Then there is basic abuse, I spent about 8 years dealing with young people of both genders that had been raped by family members, often starting when under 12.

Rape is simply abhorrent and I really hate how often posts on here trivialises it.

The emotional impact is staggering.

[Asker]

1000% correct.

What does that have to do with the post I’ve put up though?

Saying rape was an evolutionary adaptation does nothing to minimize the harm it has caused to people, populations, lineages, etc.

We can be honest about the facts but that doesn’t mean the facts are correct, right, or morally good.

Agreed? What do we disagree on exactly?

[ChrisMaster69]

Literally everything you put.

It was focused on how it was the strong person impregnating the woman.

In reality Rape is abuse

Rape as an evolutionary adaptation Exactly where does that fit in with the rape of males and children unable to be impregnated?

If rape was part of evolution, you can bet females genitalia and both genders anus would have teeth or similar defence mechanism.

Exactly where in the male evolutionary chain, is there a bit about the rape of other males and children?

You cannot simply look at the rape if one gender of child bearing age and say yes well the male get out of rape is it’s part of our evolution.

This is yet another of those posts on here trivialising rape and looking for excuses as to why it happens.

Women also rape guys and children.

There are so many holes in the entire question.

[ChrisMaster69]

@embracethepain thank you for MHG.

However the credit goes to @Aimée__LJ for her masterclass

[Aimée__LJ]

Why thank you 💅🏻

[Asker]

It’s all random.

I just wish more people would’ve answered this question to get more nuanced opinion.

I think, naturally, people answering are more likely to find disagreement with this rather than agree.

Those who do agree, feel some sort of guilt so they just ignore the question entirely. Even though they know it’s not supposed to be that way, there’s too much poison attached to this topic, it’s not justified a response.

[Aimée__LJ]

You realize people can see when it's a randomized most helpful opinion and when the OP has actually selected it yeah?
But why did you only feel the need to reply to Chris after I did? 🤔

[Asker]

Well, I was meaning to when he said “thank you for the MHO” but I hadn’t the time.

Also, I didn’t know people could see that it was randomized until today.

[CrazyGirl2]

Rape is an act of VIOLENCE, not an SEX ACT! You trivialize it, by MAKING EXCUSES FOR IT! And, asshole, when YOUR uncle holds you down on your 13th Birthday, and shoves his cock inside YOU, THEN you can say whatever the fuck you want! Until then, SAY Nothing…just LISTEN FOR ONCE!

[CrazyGirl2]

Sorry @embracethepain I forgot to tag you, so you understand that I am taking to YOU!

[Ellie-V]

It is apart of nature. One aspect.
But i would agree with someone else who said it is more of a lack of adaptation in human history. It is primal. But being human is being able to balance biology and psychology. We still have a long way to go when it comes to evolution. I don’t think we’ve had much time here on earth so have a well rounded understanding of who/what we are.

[Smashingdoozy]

Nope there's too many unanswered questions about the social and cultural theories for this to be an explanation. There are far better explanations in social science.

[Aimée__LJ]

I second this

[Asker]

Social science?

Culture follows genes.

Really, everything is about genes, reproduction, fitness, and persistence.

Social science exists because of the grounding of evolutionary science, aka the hard sciences.

[Smashingdoozy]

You don't actually know what you're talking about so I'm not going to bother.

[Asker]

Again, this is a fairly common thing for people to say because they find this pill hard to swallow.

You can’t describe one thing I’ve said that is wrong. Again, I’m sourcing this from EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS.

Just because something is evolutionary doesn’t mean it is good or right.

We can and should tailor and change what we’ve done or acted like in the past because as humans we adapt and change due to our environment.

What was good or efficient back then, may not be now.

[Aimée__LJ]

There is far more evidence that rape is a social behavior rather than evolutionary. This theory has been well talked about and criticized because of the lack of evidence. There are many social and cultural links to rape perpetrators so it being evolutionary just doesn't make sense.

[Asker]

Well, there’s not really a lack of evidence. I think it’s just more taboo, so less scientists want to talk about it, but there’s a lot of taboo or “ugly” truths within evolutionary biology that are both talked about and not talked about.

You’re right though, it is a social behavior technically.

The social behavior is due to evolutionary adaptation though.

Why men act machismo or bouts of bravado to impress women?

It is technically a social behavior

But it is so much more evolutionary due to the circumstances and environments that men found themselves amongst women, where this behavior was essentially passed down within and adjacent to other lineages.

It still persists today.

It’s strongly evolutionary.

Women’s reaction? Well, women like men.

Men acting manly or more like what is characteristically masculine and looking masculine attracts the most amount of women.

[Asker]

Not talking about some feminine-looking man like Justin Beiber or Harry Styles. A lot of women like these men TODAY.

But for the majority of society it’s been men like a Henry Cavill that have succeeded in attracting the most amount of women ACROSS MULTIPLE domains and times.

[Aimée__LJ]

Think of it this way. Rape being evolutionary would mean there is a biological desire to cause a pregnancy. Yes? Why are 70% of reported sexual abuse cases in children under 17? A lot who are prepubescent. That's doesn't make sense. They can't have children. Why do men rape other men? Why does anal rape happen at all? Why are elderly people raped?

Rapists don't often share the desire to get someone pregnant. Some even use condoms. Their desire is often rooted in causing pain, getting revenge, sexual gratification, humiliating the victim and many more social behaviors.

[Asker]

I don’t think consensual sex in general was something that was commonplace back then as it is now.

I don’t know all the answers to your questions, as I’m no expert, but I have heard experts talk about rape being an evolutionary adaptation.

Think about it this way.

You’re a man in a time where there is no DNA testing, no extensive law enforcement, etc.

You have power to take what you want and do what you want to women.

The women may not know any better, having been raised in this environment, they may think this is all normal.

Today, women in Islamic countries live in slavery basically. A lot of them actually believe it’s normal.

A man would find that rape can be an efficient and essential way to get sexual pleasure, have children to carry your legacy, etc.

It has zero costs as well, because the women won’t and can’t complain.

Everyone else is doing it too.

The men suffer no physical damage.
They don’t take care of the child (no pregnancy)

Etc.

[Asker]

Think about this too.

Why do so many women find people like Ted Bundy attractive? Even knowing he’s a serial killer that has raped and killed many women?

Why do many women stay with and many a times fall in love with their abusers? Rapists?

Boyfriends that rape their girlfriend, why do the girlfriends stay when they can leave?

All of this doesn’t make sense unless you can talk about all of this in an evolutionary sense.

Even then, it still is NOT GOOD and should be halted for obvious reasons. Our ancestors may not have known what harm or immorality they were causing

[Aimée__LJ]

Nothing you said holds any basis to right now. Like Smashingdoozy said there's too many unanswered questions for this to be a plausible theory. It also is a theory that undermines victims of SA. Plays into the "it's natural" card. Rape has social ties and this theory has been criticized 10x not because it's a hard pill to swallow but because of lack of evidence.

[Asker]

Again, there is plenty of evidence for this.

I’m sure you understand why a lot of scientists and biologist would touch this topic more even with a 10 ft pole.

Everything I said makes perfect sense, but I don’t think I can say anything that will convince you because you just said “undermines victims of SA”
“Plays into ‘it’s natural’ card”

THAT is why you don’t like what I am saying.

Same with smashingdoozy.

That’s the crux of your disagreement and same with her

It’s fine, I totally understand.

[Aimée__LJ]

I literally have a PhD and studied this shit for years. There are reasons for everything you said. there's social reasons, psychological reasons. Even you'd know that if you took some time and did a little more reading about this topic instead of believing and trusting in one article with no scientific basis.

[Asker]

It’s not an article.

Look up “A Hunter Gatherer’s Guide to the 21st Century” by evolutionary biologists Heather Heying & Bret Weinstein.

I’ll source you the page if you’re able to get some copy.

All they allude to is that rape is something ugly within evolutionary biology that many people want to think is a defect.

But it looks like it wasn’t a defect for a long long time. It was an evolutionary adaptation for the times it was adapted to.

Why are you so difficult in convincing this is true?

Really, no evolutionary biologists would disagree with this.

What they WOULD disagree with is that it is needed today and it is right because it is evolutionary

WRONG.

[disgustingweebtrash]

S O C I A L S C I E N C E

Haha its fucking over, social science is the worst enlightenment period ever

[Asker]

@disgustingweebtrash

I was trying to be nice and not just be outright honest lol

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said though.

People only like science or agree with it when it turns out “good truths.”

[disgustingweebtrash]

Social science is about taking evolutionary behaviours and slapping a social reason on it, social science is not a real science as its focus is not on truth but what doesn't offend.

[Asker]

Yes, I believe that is true.

Everything boils down to the genes, reproduction, fitness, and persistence across lineages

Hence evolution

[Smashingdoozy]

A paper with no scientific research to back it up is merely an article 🤣

[Asker]

Well, no…. but honestly, I don’t see furthering this convo.

You don’t like what you hear and it makes no sense to continue something that you’re deeply/inherently at odds with.

[Aimée__LJ]

Could say the same for you dude... You're making shit up that has no basis to justify a theory that's already been heavily criticized for not meeting its own criteria...

[Asker]

1000% not making any of this up. This is literally science/fact.

I don’t know if anyone in the evolutionary biology community disagrees with this.

Again, they would disagree with this being good because it is natural.

Which is wrong,
Naturalistic fallacy.

Just because something is or was natural means it ought to be continued or it ought to be good.

[ChrisMaster69]

@embracethepain has anyone fully agreed with what you have said?

With all proving of science, you need to look at it all, then hold up everything against your statement.

In Ancient Greece and other ancient and medieval cultures including Europe, it was common for men to have small boys as lovers, sex toys for want of a better word. With Pederasty, rape was very common, this culture entered the early church and flourished.

Exactly what part of male evolution was that full filling, is there some evolutionary secret that guys can get pregnant from Anal rape?

[Asker]

Well, that’s another fallacy.

Who cares how many agree? At one point, the entire world believed sacrificing to the gods caused all sorts of good stuff.

Also the majority believed the earth is flat.

[Asker]

What I’m saying is and I’m tired of having to repeat things that are rather simple and not really debated in the scientific community today,

Is that there are ugly truths within evolutionary biology.

For whatever reason, these truths were adapted and spawned out of the niche or environments they found themselves way back when.

It doesn’t mean it’s good.

It could simply mean one lineage beat or killed off another and had a lot of members to pass on this adaptation over centuries.

Again, doesn’t mean it’s good.

Rape, for example, is simply non consensual sex. It’s taking without asking.

This was quite common the farther back you go in time.

Yes, it was primarily men the aggressors and women the victims.

Of course, for reasons of neurology, differences in biology, etc.

You have same sex rape, animal rape, etc.

There is without a doubt diversity within human being sexuality.

Although, the majority are heterosexual,

So, what’s your disagreement? Or are you just disagreeing just to disagree?

[ChrisMaster69]

@embracethepain what’s a fallacy that men cannot get pregnant from anal sex?

Are you keeping something secret from everyone?

You have proof that guys actually can get pregnant?

Was it in the same ‘evolutionarily report’?

[Asker]

It’s not about impregnation, 100%.

It carries onto other aspects of sexuality, society, etc.

Heterosexual people rape
Homosexual people rape

Etc.

Either way, rape adapted, evolutionarily, to become accustomed to when it was adapted.

Not today obviously,

[Aimée__LJ]

"For a trait to undergo positive selection, it must have two characteristics. First, the trait must be beneficial; in other words, it must increase the organism's probability of surviving and reproducing. Second, the trait must be heritable so that it can be passed to an organism's offspring."

Both missing from rape as an evolutionary trait.

[Asker]

Heritable doesn’t have to be genetic/genes.

Culture/religion is effectively evolutionary in newly every way.

It is an extension of a system within a lineage that has benefited so many for so long.

Even today it exists quite strong still.

[Asker]

Either way, I’m tired. I understand why you don’t like this topic, so it’s counterproductive for me to force it on you to agree with even though it is indeed true.

It benefits no one to know it’s true.

Because…. rape is just bad.

Evolutionary or not.

We do better with less rape in society.

So, I’m tired. Have a good day Aimee

[Aimée__LJ]

You're arguing with what scientists have said. You're not arguing with me. I'm just stating things I have learned with very minimal reading which you have failed to do. You are not a evolutionary scientist, you have no place writing these things as "facts" when they're not. You can theorize all you want but don't act like you know what you're talking about when it's incredibly evident you have no idea.

[Asker]

Scientists don’t disagree with what I’ve simply said.

Just because it is evolutionary doesn’t mean it is good

Naturalistic fallacy

There are many things about humans that aren’t good that were adapted for during their time.

I don’t know any scientist that disagrees with that.

No scientist does.

What they do disagree on is “rape is right, because it is natural.”

No one agrees with that, unless you’re a rapist.

[Aimée__LJ]

"Culture follows genes."
Quite the opposite actually. Genetics can be influenced by our culture. For example humans shouldn't be able to drink cow's milk. Nearly 10k years ago our bodies weren't even able to process it but they kept drinking it so our bodies developed the appropriate enzymes in order to break it down. Lactose intolerant people lack that enzyme.

"Social science exists because of the grounding of evolutionary science, aka the hard sciences."
The fact that you insinuate that social science is easy is funny... Since you never studied it. But again no social science and evolutionary science go hand in hand. It's called Anthropology. If evolution wasn't how we came to be, as some people believe, we still have culture and societies. If evolutionary science never existed, social science would still be there.

"You can’t describe one thing I’ve said that is wrong. Again, I’m sourcing this from EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS."

I just did two.

[Aimée__LJ]

"Just because something is evolutionary doesn’t mean it is good or right." Not exactly true. In order for something to be evolutionary it has to be beneficial to humanity.

"Men acting manly or more like what is characteristically masculine and looking masculine attracts the most amount of women."
This is actually influenced by culture. Jamaican women show a stronger preference to masculine men than women in the UK for example.

"I don’t think consensual sex in general was something that was commonplace back then as it is now." Misconception. People think that children were being raped and abused through history. Which is true for some. But most relationships and marriages actually happened with people in their 20s.

"Today, women in Islamic countries live in slavery basically. A lot of them actually believe it’s normal."
Because that's what their society is like. It's basically a culture.

[Aimée__LJ]

"Why do so many women find people like Ted Bundy attractive? Even knowing he’s a serial killer that has raped and killed many women?"Hybristophilia is a type of paraphilia in which a person “gets sexually aroused over someone else committing an offensive or violent act,” . pedophilia, zoophilia, and objectophilia... There's a lot of narcissism involved too, they wouldn't do that to me, I can fix them type energy. Basically these people have likely experienced trauma in their life and this has manifested itself as a coping mechanism.

"Why do many women stay with and many a times fall in love with their abusers? Rapists?"
We're hardwired to forget pain. Basically these people hold onto the good times. They're being manipulated by the abuser. Often it's not easy to leave for not only mental jumps but physically not having money to leave, access to resources, somewhere to go. In relationships like that the abuser tends to isolate you from your friends and family. They will cause you to ruin your relationships so they are the only thing you can rely on.

I think I've proven you incorrect enough for you to now understand you have no idea what you are talking about. Have a good day.

[disgustingweebtrash]

We are part of the animal kingdom.

Your answer lies in other mammals. Look to the apes.

[Asker]

That’s all this is saying.

We are part of the animal kingdom.

There are ugly things within evolutionary history

doesn't mean they are right

A lot of people still don’t want to believe this is true and find this to be a hard pill to swallow

It minimizes nothing of the sexual abuse or rape survivors

It doesn’t say rape is good and needs to be continued because it is “natural.”

It just what was

And hopefully what isn’t today.
Although, a lot of places on earth still share similar sentiments

[disgustingweebtrash]

Humans will always try to separate from the animal kingdom and rightfully so in the way that the only thing that separates us from others is that we have the ability to change the environment around us to increase our chances of survival, combining that with something as simple as thumbs and you have a being that will constantly improve technology and survival with each generation unless there are outside factors such as an extinction event.

But even with all this, deep down those primal instincts are there. Civilization has existed for 6000 years and humans like 2 million. It can't be rid of so easily.

[Andres77]

to me its arrogance and selfishness and cruelty all wrapped up into a man's mind.
it doesn't matter if the victim is a woman, girl, boy or another man.
it's arrogance and cruelty in it's most pure form.
rapists deserve death.
all of them.

[RolandCuthbert]

@embracethepain

So why would you lie and claim you are not a eugenicist?

[Asker]

No idea what that is.

I’m just talking about evolutionary biology.

Facts are not always happy or good
Positive

We all need to go the moral and good path to benefit all.

Doesn’t matter what biology says, because as humans we can adapt and change/tailor our lives to go beyond basic instincts and what was “natural.”

It’s the human and moral thing to do.

Be good. Be fair. Be just.

[RolandCuthbert]

Not sure what this has to do with anything you actually posted.

You seem to be confused. Do you believe that genetics determines human behavior and that humans cannot overcome their predispositions/supposed limitations or not? It is a simple question.

[Asker]

Read my post. Explains everything.

[RolandCuthbert]

It actually explains nothing. You are ascribing morality to an act.

I am asking you about the mythology you believe when it comes to genetics. And I don't understand why you are scared to state what you believe.

[Asker]

I explained what I believe and what my opinions are already in the post.

Read it

[EnglishEuropean]

Rape is a human concept. In a biological sense it's all just sex.

[cloakofdeception]

I think its silly to attempt to explain an issue through only 1 way.
that limits the scope so significantly.

[Asker]

Everything has its roots in biology, fitness, adaptation, and persistence.

You can only truly understand something once you understand it’s implications in these domains

[Gwenhwyfar]

I really don’t like this

[Snakeyes7]

Maybe that's true for some species but mating rituals exist among most species.

[Neosporin]

Rape is not an adaptation sex is.