Do you think rape was a natural/biological mating strategy for men at one point in time, but a multitude of processes has put a halt to this practice?

[Anonymous]

Updates

+1 y

In other words, have men evolved to use rape as an effective mating strategy, but various processes have halted or seen the practice as harmful? I’ve heard that men have evolved to use rape as a means of mating the greatest number of women, without romantic commitment. This might be why men today are seen as not wanting romantic commitment over strictly sexual commitment, whereas women are the opposite. This also may be interrelated to men seeing women as more of sexual objects.

Updates

+1 y

Possibly why women have hidden estrous, was that rape was so common that it was beneficial for women to not know when they were in estrous.
During antiquity, rape was frequently used against group members to where women were the spoils of war for military men. Biologically speaking, rape was a non-issue, despite whether people think biology is cruel or unfair. It is undoubtedly the case that the purpose of sex is for procreation, so rape was a non-issue, biologically speaking.

@ladsin

[curiousnorway]

Such things like greediness, lust, wanting to take revenge or do violence etc. are probably a combination between nature and nurture. It's not only an instinct, but also something you can be taught by your peers. If you lives in a violent society you're more likely to be violent yourself than if it's not violent because of you're indirectly taught it's an okay thing to do.

Other animals do sometimes rape each other in order to procreate, but usually it's consensual sex and not rape. They may not do it for pleasure like human beings and only do it for procreation, but it's still usually consensual since most animals gets the feeling of it being right and both are just doing it. Often the male animals are trying to attract the females one and competes to get one, and if the female aren't impressed they won't mate and only the most impressive males with the best genes gets children most of the times.

In the past when forced marriage happen martial rape occurred to. Some people had a high sex drive and wanted children. The difference between human beings and other species are that humans are capable to think differently like ethics and morals. Humans had a conscience for several thousands of years, thought over what's right and wrong, asked philosophical and existential questions. Since humans are not only acting based on instincts, but also reasoning, therefor we've more control over ourselves.

Yes, a high sex drive and wanting sex is biological. The temptation and greediness are a combination between nature and nurture, but so is cooperation too. In order to survive both working together and having friendships are important. You doesn't make friends raping someone. It's not all about moral and ethics, but also that you may lose some benefits if someone hates you for raping them. Especially if you lived in a tribe.

[curiousnorway]

In the past when forced marriage was more common...*

[ladsin]

Didn’t you already ask this? Or is this a new question in response to your prior one? Presuming the latter I’ll just continue with my point from our last discussion.

It’s a rather strange phraseology, but my general answer would be that men didn’t evolve to rape per se, it’s just that consent wasn’t a relevant issue. Any mating strategy which increases fecundity is likely to get passed down to subsequent generations via population mechanics. That said rape isn’t a great reproductive strategy for several reasons but two in particular come to mind. Firstly the child born will have a lower likelihood of survival by either being murdered by the mother, her family, or simply be allowed to die due to a lack of resources that’s inherent to a single parent household in antiquity. The second is that due to the phenomena of hidden estrous in human females the likelihood of pregnancy from a single copulation (rape in this instance) is extremely low. A far more reliable mating strategy is repeated copulation over time which is more likely to ensure procreation.

[ladsin]

Hidden estrous, constantly engorged mammaries, and consistent copulation (as opposed to only when in heat like dogs) are all factors which increase the likelihood of pair-bonding. This is particularly necessary for humans as we require massive parental investment in our youth. If a moose gives birth her baby can walk within hours on its own and can outrun a human within the first few days. This is quite wildly different from humans who require almost a year just to get walking and even then we aren’t proficient at it. Past that human children are, biologically speaking, a massive waste of resources until they’re in at least what their mid teens? All of this makes the prospect of a single parent being able to both rear the child and provide adequately for it, particularly in antiquity which was far more brutish implausible if not outright impossible.

[ladsin]

Sorry, one more comment.

This is why we see that strict cultural mores formed around sexuality and coupling to add an additional layer of impetus for pair-bonding. Marriage and the like were ways of ensuring this.

[Asker]

I hope you don’t mind that I quoted from one of your responses to one of my questions. If I misrepresented you in anyway I’ll take it down

[ladsin]

You’re fine. I apparently was feeling rather repetitive when I wrote that which rather frustrates me because it’s poor writing and dreadful to read. That said the information is accurate as I know it and if anyone is interested in disagreeing or discussing the topic they’re welcome to do so. 😂

[Asker]

I actually think you write pretty good man.

[Asker]

By the way, I didn’t write word-for-word your response because of the word count limit. I tried to be as close and honest in my slight paraphrasing though, so I wouldn’t misrepresent you.

[ladsin]

I think this one was written far better, but for example, “rape was frequently used against group members to where” I completely boofed and forgot to say “out-group”. Then in the next sentence I said the phrases “biologically speaking” and non-issue” back to back which is just piss poor. Alas, life goes on.

[Asker]

Yeah, I understood it as you referring to an “out-group.”
I agree that this most recent response was better written.

How do you know a lot about this?

[ladsin]

I like reading, and when I find a topic that interests me I learn what I can about it.

[Asker]

And here I thought you had a PhD in bio lmfao

[ladsin]

Haha no. I have a bachelors in psych.

[Izumiblu]

Well it was obviously a strategy.

But then my cat has strategies for getting food. Some of them are good ones and some of them could end up with her dead in the street.

So seeing as how the rule of law and ethics are considered one of the foundational success of western civilization it stands to reason that men incapable of evolving with society will be left behind.

Sure there may be some transitional costs but ultimately the stragglers will be ostracized from society , their genetic lineage slowly but surely turning into ash , cultural and societal learnings of old will be lost in the rubble and humanity will continue to evolve beyond its origins.

[Some_Goof]

I agree. I think so too. There was a time when rape was not really "rape" but just a means of procreation and sating sexual hunger. Most of the time it had nothinging to do with love.

[Asker]

GOOF!! How are you?

[Some_Goof]

I'm okay i guess... nothing much going on. How are you doing?

[Asker]

I’m good now that I’m talking to Goof.

Lol, I’m good. I’m going to get blood drawn soon so I’m not too happy about that. The most unpleasant experience I’ve had with needles would be when they stuck a needle into me and were moving it around while it was inside me...

[Some_Goof]

Thinking about it is making me tickle inside...

[Asker]

Yeah, that’s kind of how it felt, but much worse than a tickle.

[OlderAndWiser]

Your brutal honesty about our animal nature may engender a few hate responses, however. . . I suspect that, in the days of knock-a-woman-over-the-head-with-your-club-and-drag-her-back-to-your-cave, consent was not an issue that was ever considered. I don't know if this strategy led to men mating with many women rather than having longer term relationships. I am older but I am not that old! But it is certainly possible that guys would try to drag a different woman back to their cave every night.

I wonder if, in those days, a woman being fat made her more desirable, because a fat woman could probably keep a guy warmer through the night.

[ladsin]

Being overweight was frequently a sign of affluence and beauty in medieval Europe at least as it signified that you didn’t have to worry about food. Similarly pasty white skin because it meant you didn’t have to labor in the sun. It’s kind of funny how norms of attractiveness can change.

[JimRSmith]

If it ever was, it must have been a long, long while ago...

[LogicBomber]

What you "heard" was wrong. Men don't "use rape" for anything.
Less than 4% of the entire population of the planet are rapist.
Less than 1 in 1000 women are actually raped (which includes the fabricated, I mean estimated, 90% that don't come forward. But doesn't exclude the 40% of accusations which are false. So it's even much lower than that)

AS PER the Bureau of Justice Statistics (The gold stat in crime stats)
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv15.pdf

Men don't want commitment because we aren't biologically programmed to be monogamous and mentally fucked up feminist have added to that by turning men and women on each other with false bullshit like the 1 in 4 statistics.

Women are biologically programmed to look for a mate, a provider, a protector.
Which is why their body releases tons of oxytocin (the bonding chemical) during arousal, intercourse, and orgasm. Estrogen enhances its effects. *IN males we only get a small bit during orgasm and testosterone nullifies it.

In regards to "seeing women as sexual objects"... both men and women see women objectively to the same degree.
netnebraska.org/.../unl-study-says-we-view-women-sexual-objects-and-men-people

[normalice]

In a way. Much as dogs "rape" each other all the time. There is no consent, as dogs cannot speak. You could argue body language, but the point is how would you ever be able to tell the difference? They are animals, just as we are. And before civilization became a thing - before we became capable of thinking of ourselves objectively - it's quite possible the concept of consent just wasn't something anyone thought about. But now that it has, we get to be better than animals, like we keep saying we are.

[hellionthesagereborn]

No. Rape is not a valid way of reproducing as the dependency of the offspring. In short a man could rape a woman but she has the capacity to abort (striking the abdomen repeatedly can kill the fetus and cause her to miscarry) as well as the capacity to simply abandon any offspring that was the product of rape. This would make rape as a means of reproduction all but worthless (which is why its not particularly common amongst mammals due to our greater dependency at birth).

[SarahsSummer]

Unless you are referring to the stereotypical cave man who clubs then drags a woman to the cave, Yours is a ludicrous and offensive belief to suggest men don’t want romantic relationships because rape was easier. Thoroughly offensive.

[Asker]

I’m afraid this goes far beyond the cavemen. I believe that this was a biological inclination and mating strategy for past men, but as social processes have spawned, this became less and less a viable or even moral option. It’s a sad fact that rape could’ve been a mating strategy for men in the past for a long long time, but biology/science doesn’t care about what makes us happy.

I’m not an expert in the slightest, just a curious person who has some limited knowledge. If anyone is reading this, please correct or educate me if one is more knowledgeable or an expert on the topic at hand.
This is meant to be a curious inquiry, and I accept that it will offend some people.

[SarahsSummer]

since before medieval times, rape was considered a crime.

[Anonymous]

You do realize rape is not done by people who are horny and need to get off right?

People rape for power, control, domination, violence and to see a person suffer and be under their control. It is about sodomizing and degrading another.

That is rape.

It has zero to do with sexual commitment, romantic commitment, mating etc.

[aa180]

And yet it's the number one female fantasy.. smh.

[Asker]

See, I don’t think that’s necessarily the only or main reason why rape is committed. I think people who say it’s strictly for power, control, domination, degrading, etc. might be in denial of perhaps another reason, something more sinister than that...

I think people who commit rape truly have some sexual attraction towards their target and either (1) don’t care about the consequences, (2) don’t think they’ll get caught or ( 3 ) the commission of the crime is worth more than the consequences. I think in some instances rape is down out of control, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the main reasoning as to why people commit the crime of rape in my opinion.

[Opinion Owner]

You are disgusting if you think any woman or man wishes to be raped. Sick in the head.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah because people raping babies and elderly people do so for sexual attraction. People who rape women are so sexually attracted to them that they wish to see them cry, scream in pain, be helpless and have no control. Very sexually stimulating and pleasing to see.

[aa180]

I'm saying it's the number one female fantasy, which is true. Girls will say, "Oh, but it doesn't mean I actually want to be raped!", which just makes them even more retarded for fantasizing and getting off to it in the first place.

[Opinion Owner]

@aa180 What exactly makes you think a woman wants to be forced to have sex against her will? Have you ever encountered a woman who has been raped who said she loved it and will want it again? I mean, how fucking sick can one human being be.

[aa180]

That's exactly my point! Women know it'll hurt them if it were to happen yet they still get so turned on thinking about it. They think about it when they masturbate, and they write countless stories romanticizing it, and these always become best-sellers. So I don't know why you think it's me who's sick and not them..

[Asker]

@Anonymous
The majority of rapes are done by someone the victim knows, usually some sort of intimate. What does this mean? It means that usually there’s an intimate connection between the two or there WAS an intimate connection. The whole purpose of sex is for procreation and sustainment of the human species, but since it felt so good, humans found ways to take the procreation out of it and use it only for the pleasure. Now, it’s hard to really delve into the mind of the rapist, but saying it’s only about power and degradation, which you seem to suppose that it is, does not take into account a plethora of factors. It’s not so obvious that the rapist is doing what he is doing because he wants to see the woman degraded, but that can be a by-product of what he is doing. Meaning, this person might not want to degrade the woman, but by default of him raping her, she will undoubtedly be degraded. I think there are other factors at play hear, something deeper. I think it relates to rape possibly being a mating strategy for men of the past, attraction, poor self-control, narcissism, power, love, etc.

[Opinion Owner]

Please tell me where a woman tells a story of how she is raped and enjoys it.

[aa180]

Go on Literotica and see for yourself how many stories there are of a woman getting raped but is secretly enjoying it. Rape is one of the most popular categories on that site.

[Opinion Owner]

I am not going to bother by going on some disgusting sex website that who knows what dwells on there. There is child porn websies too. That does not make all people fans of child porn. There is all sorts of disgusting shit online. That does not make it normal. If you have to refer me to a sex website that could be written by any sick fuck to prove your point, then it just proves that there is no evidence that real life wome go around wanting to be raped. Fact remains, in day to day life no NORMAL woman wants to be raped. It is not common, normal or a "thing". Go speak to any professional if you do not want to believe it. Or go speak to actual rape victims you sick person.

[Opinion Owner]

Go ask your mother and sister if they want to be raped. Someday when you have a daughter I hope you tell her how much she wants to be raped because according to you that is what we all want. Sick.

[aa180]

🤦🤦🤦

You do realize that Literotica is one of the most popular and well-known websites that women visit, right? I have no idea why you're comparing it to a child porn site. Literotica is to women what Pornhub is to men. It's completely legal and completely mainstream. It's where girls go when they wanna masturbate. You acting like it's this almost unheard-of niche website is absolutely ridiculous and obvious that you're just trying to dodge the issue. SO many of the rape stories on that website are written and submitted BY WOMEN. That's what I'm trying to tell you but you keep pretending like what I say isn't true.

If it wasn't true, I wouldn't say it. Period.

[Opinion Owner]

I do not visit it nor heard of it. Once again, I guess one day you will teaching your daughter how much she will enjoy be raped. You have no evidence that women enjoy to be raped besides a sex website. Have you ever actually spoken to rape victims sir? Have you ever spoken to real life women asking if they want to be raped? Go do me a favor and ask women in your workplace and see what their reaction is. Or better yet, go to the police or hospitals where victims of rape were and go ask them if the rape was enjoyable for the victim. You are a sick human being. If you think a sex website is a indicator that women enjoy rape (and fyi you have NO idea who is reading or writing stories) then you are completely delysional and need psyhiatric help to draw that kind of conclusion. If you truly want to know if women enjoy rape go and speak to actual rape victims you sicko.

[Opinion Owner]

I seriously you never breed and that your mother knows you advocating how women enjoy rape. I hope if your mother gets raped ever you will also tell her she must loved every minute of it.

[aa180]

Exactly, you've never heard of that website so therefore, it must not actually be popular or well-known, right? 🤦🤦

And I know that rape victims don't enjoy rape, that's why I always point out how idiotic women are for making it their number one fantasy. If they know it'll damage and traumatize them, why do they get aroused when they fantasize about it?

That's my point.

[Opinion Owner]

Go ask normal women in day to day life. You have no evidence women enjoy rape except for a sex website that you have no proof of is even written or read by women. You also have no evidence that most women even go on that website. If SO women enjoyed rape so much, then how come there is NO rape victim that has ever testified to enjoying it? Seems pretty strange that according to you MOST women love it but yet there is NO woman who has been raped who enjoyed it.

I think you confuse rough BDSM sex with a trusted partner for something very very very different. You seem to be under a false illusion that any type of aggresive sex is rape. Actually there is a massive difference and plenty of couples can enjoy rough sex but not actually want rape.

[aa180]

"If SO women enjoyed rape so much, then how come there is NO rape victim that has ever testified to enjoying it?"

That's exactly what I'm trying to say! The number one female fantasy is rape, even they they KNOW that they would never enjoy it in real life. They think about getting raped when they masturbate, then say, "Oh, but I don't actually wanna be raped!". They just sound completely idiotic and nonsensical to me.

"I think you confuse rough BDSM sex with a trusted partner for something very very very different. You seem to be under a false illusion that any type of aggresive sex is rape."

Nope, because "Rape" and "BDSM" are two SEPARATE categories on that website, and they're both equally popular as each other. And please stop pretending that just because you don't use that website, it means that other women don't. Like I said, it's a popular and mainstream website that is very well-known.

[Opinion Owner]

So is there a rape category on this website?

[aa180]

Yes! But they call it "Non-consent/Reluctance" which obviously means the same thing. And as I said, it's completely separate from the BDSM category on that site, meaning that special attention is given to it where it's deliberately distinguished as being its own separate topic.

[Opinion Owner]

And I am guessing it has a million views on each story?

[Opinion Owner]

And about how many stories written each day? 1000? 2000?

[aa180]

No, I think in the thousands.

[aa180]

The total number of rape stories on that website is about 20 000, which I think is the 2nd or 3rd highest on that site (out of about 10 different categories).

[Opinion Owner]

So how does that work then? Most women enjoy rape fantasies but a story has 1000 views? Seems pretty... odd.

[Opinion Owner]

I mean there is about 3.8 billion women in the world

[Opinion Owner]

And 167, 808, 735 women in USA so

[aa180]

Well I'm specifically comparing it to the other topics on that site, and I find it a significant finding that rape, together with BDSM, would comprise the highest number of stories on that website instead of anything else.

And I also base my claims off stuff like how approximately half the top 100 best-selling books on Amazon have rape in them. It's very common for a women's novel to involve rape or sexual violence of some sort, and these are always regarded as "romance" novels, even though they're exactly the opposite of romantic. Also, there are twice as many women watching "rape porn" than there are men, even though women only make up 1/4 of overall porn viewership.

So all these things add up and make me draw the conclusion that I do.

[Opinion Owner]

You are diverting now and you know it. Pick a side. You were the one hell bent that the website proves women enjoy rape. Now you mention 100 best selling books which I am guessing you read all of them? So give me a few titles and tell me where in the book the women says she wants to be raped.

[Opinion Owner]

Rape porn... hmmmm... so now you are changing your story from erotic fiction to porn. I am guessing these videos also have millions of views on them and that you can prove that it is all from women? Please show me your proof. Thanks.

[Opinion Owner]

Last time I checked lesbian porn was the no 1 porn category women enjoyed so I would love to know why your rape porn category is nowhere on the top...

[aa180]

The top 100 books on Amazon thing was pointed out to me by another GAG user on a similar post a while back. He knew what each book was about and went through a handful of them. Obviously I'm not gonna remember all the titles and their specific storylines, but the take-home information was that rape was common in all of them, and that's the point worth noting.

[Opinion Owner]

So I am just supposed to believe you? After you already showed me you are a flip flopper who cannot pick a story to stick by after being caught out that your so called website proving women love rape is not so reliable after all once I showed you the statistics. And you seriously think I am going to take anything you say at face value?

[aa180]

I'm not changing my story, I'm adding more evidence to the already-mentioned ones. Even though lesbian porn is on top, a Pornhub article I read said that women displayed a *strong* preference for domination type videos, so the lesbian porn you're thinking of is not quite what they're watch. They still prefer porn that's violent, even if it's not rape.

[LucyArmstrong25]

I'm sure way way way way back in the past this was a common practice where men just went and satisfied there sexual frustration with this method. Back when people had no idea of justice and a sense of pride.

[Deathraider]

Well while rape may have natural benefit for men, that in no way imply anything about them being moral. Just because something is natural/unnatural doesn’t mean it imply something is moral/immoral.

I don’t think rape is useful for men anymore, or since civilization formed. Two parents raising a child means the child is more likely to be successful and reproduce.

[bangyourhead]

I'm sure that was part of it. As was part of a conquest tactic. IF you conquer a land and rape the women, the children will be partially genetically tied to you and less likely to revolt to kick you out.

[someginger]

Well in the same way killing someone use to be a legitimate survival technique back in the stone age

[VaIiant]

As others have said, unless you’re talking about cavemen and way before any civilization, this is retarded. Rape is morally wrong, and anyone right in the head knows that.

[JDavid25]

No.. I honestly think its apart of the dark fallen nature of men..

[AuroraRoseat]

It could have been used during the time of early humans as well as the fact that monogamy was nonexistent to increase our population. That doesn’t make it acceptable now though.

[ROCKS128]

Rape was common in history, i mean long long ago far far time behind, when they lived in forest and caves.

Nowadays rape is the desparation, porn fantasies, revenge and something else ( rapist's personal reasons).

[Repa33]

Not at all. Thats an excuse rapists use when they refuse to accept responsibility

[HOAAH]

No, i think back then it was arranged marriages mostly agreed by the parents.

[Britguy100]

In the early year males probably abused the situation to manipulate woman but in a society forcing yourself on to a women and rape the woman should never be normalised

[bill_towers]

Among common people, maybe. Not in the ruling families.

[Anonymous]

Possibly. Or it's possibly was the only way a beta male could get sex via sloppy seconds.

[ladsin]

I’m not sure I understand your comment. Is it that “beta males” would rape because they couldn’t succeed in the other mating strategies (namely pair-bonding)?

If so a rather interesting note on that we’ve seen from studying non-human primates is in regards to copulatory vocalization in which the female will essentially call to other males during or after coitus to let the other males know. If the male who’s engaged is of lower status he’ll be beaten and the female will be taken by the others.

Not really see if that’s at all related but I found it interesting.

[esotericstory]

Yeah, its a strategy for males who cannot reproduce without coercion, its for losers.

[PrincessGrail]

I really don’t wanna think about this

[Aphrodite801]

It’s a disgusting false theory

[PrincessGrail]

@Aphrodite801 thank you

[NerdInDenial]

Maybe in the Middle Ages or prehistoric periods

[Aphrodite801]

I think that something is wrong with you

[Aphrodite801]

One of the reasons so many people dislike so many men now.

[Asker]

Something wrong with me? Why?

[Aphrodite801]

Yes you have truly disgusted me.

[Asker]

Is it my handsome face or my intellect that has disgusted you?

[Aphrodite801]

A handsome guy would not ask such a question. Neither would a guy who isn’t a beast. Obviously you want this to be believed as natural, because you’ve probably done it.

[Asker]

My last response as a joke, but to respond seriously to you...

I’m just asking a question meant as a curious inquiry into a controversial issue, that’s it. If you’re mad at the question, I understand, but it is just a question.

[Asker]

*My last response WAS a joke*

[Aphrodite801]

We are done here.

[Asker]

We still on for Saturday at 8 though right?

[BronzedAdonis]

Yes.

[Asker]

What’s going on with you man? You finished with school?

[BronzedAdonis]

No, I changed degrees a year ago, so only in sem 2 of my new course

[Asker]

What’s your new course? What do you want to do now, career-wise?

[BronzedAdonis]

Marketing and management, major. Business degree

[Asker]

So, do you want to start your own business or join an already established one?

[BronzedAdonis]

Becoming a marketing professional for a company and climb the ranks

[Asker]

Ah, okay.

[BronzedAdonis]

Yourself?

[Asker]

I’ll PM you

[Ellie-V]

No...

[curiousnorway]

Just because you dislikes a thing doesn't mean it's unnatural. Both rape, theft, murder, revenge, greediness, hate, earthquakes, viruses/bacteria, cancer etc. can be as natural as love, caring, wanting a relationship/relation etc. Things being natural or unnatural doesn't mean you've to like or dislike it.

Cancer is natural, but that doesn't mean I'm obligated to like it. The way we're using electricity, certain medicines etc. may be less natural, but we can still find it beneficial and like it.

[Asker]

@curiousnorway
Exactly. No one is saying that it was wrong of us to discard rape and other “natural” inclinations of the human psyche, but we are saying science and biology doesn’t care about what people think. A lot of the times, biology and evolution is cruel and that’s just something we have to accept about the past. Now, today, we can surely go past our biology and we don’t have to be slaves to it.

[Ellie-V]

Sorry, but I don’t remember expressing my likes or dislikes on the subject of rape under this particular question.
But if I did, feel free to quote me.

[curiousnorway]

How is rape unnatural? I would like you to elaborate yourself more. Sorry for misreading your answer.

[Ellie-V]

To it’s entirety, no I don’t think rape is natural because there’s usually a process of males proving themselves worthy of mating and passing down genes. But I do believe that rape is a natural reaction to frustration whether it’s sexual or something else.

[CT_CD]

I agree

[Wowgirl30q]

Noooooo!!!

[BonnieBunny]

Wtf no

[Poormanscomedian]

I doubt it