Do you think that instead of expecting everyone else to wear masks and get vaccinated for them, should those at risk of COVID stay home?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

And if so, are you aware that +40% of the population have preexisting conditions that put them at greater risk of dying of COVID? If you think that a lockdown hurt the economy, wtf do you think 2/5ths of the population isolating themselves from the rest of society will do? It would be an economic collapse the likes of which we have never seen and it would take decades to recover from. This is part of why a fight against a pandemic is first and foremost a collective one.

[Levin]

I mean, I'll reiterate what I keep saying on here.

40% of Americans are obese. 2/3 are overweight. And like you say, my understanding that somewhere in the region of around 1 in 2 adults have a chronic or pre-existing condition.

What would you conclude from these statistics?

This is the success of your science and your modern 'health' care system, all of its institutions and structures.

Total fucking disaster.

Wouldn't the logical conclusion, to improve health outcomes, if anyone actually gave a shit about that, would be to ask people to lose weight. Why not mandate people to lose weight? If you can mandate an experimental jab with no long term safety data, and some fairly 'gnarly' side effects reported thus far, from private companies with decidedly dark ethical and legal records; why can't you mandate that people lose weight, and take some responsibility for their health? Maybe we could say you're locked in your house, with the exception of as much exercise as you like, until you lose some fucking weight? Bound to have much better health outcomes than your dodgy jabs.

Each person has an individual responsibility for their health. You can stop with this collective bullshit.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

High obesity rates are the result of the most cost-effective (profit driven) methods of food production being used and that our healthcare system has kept the life expectancy as long as it is in spite of this is a testament to its sucess. And if you're worried about side affects of the vaccine you should isolate yourself because the long-term health effects of COVID are WAY worse.

And how much weight do you expect people to lose because losing more than 1-2 lbs per week would probably do more harm than good so by the time most obese people got down to a healthy weight, having taken them out of the labor force swsould have completely fucked up the economy (way worse than any lockdown did) so you can drop this individualist garbage; it doesn't apply to transmissible diseases.

[Levin]

High obesity rates is indeed one of the disasters of capitalism; and marketing, making food into a differentiated plastic product rather than it just being *food*. You have a rather skewed notion of success. This is what obesity looks like: en.wikipedia.org/.../File:Obesity6.JPG

Is this a success to you? Is there a success with increased risk of diabetes, heart disease, cancer, shortened lives and potential? It is a sick-care management system, everyone is in perpetuity, sick. And doesn't health care account for around 20% of your GDP? Big business eh. The foundation of an economy. You see that as a success? You're obviously a sick one, as is everybody else condoning this kind of warped way of thinking.

As for your comment of so called 'long covid' being way worse, that is debatable. I like to exercise 5 times a week, so I don't really fancy myocarditis. And as the long term implications of these jabs are not known (and may logically therefore include death), we are operating on insufficient data to make such a conclusion.

Also, that wasn't necessarily a strategy I was putting forward as credible, I was making a rhetorical point.

Clearly responsibility exists on multiple levels. Big business, corporations, government, media have a responsibility for the kind of crap they peddle. As do individuals, who have a responsibility for their own health. I don't believe in false dichotomies, but it is clear that health outcomes would be far more favourable if people got within a healthy bmi, become active, and really, transformed their entire lives, rather than being lazy 20 stone fucks who become self righteous when they have god knows what injected into them.

[sawno]

Should they stay home? Nah. We can facilitate society for the fearfull and the compromised. Like a few moments a week where your only allowed to shop with these measures in place so they can do their shopping safely. Like for example Thursday and Sunday morning for a few hours. Gives everyone the space to deal with this the way they want to. Same with transport, you could do a front / back of the bus devide or have a separate train cart with the measures. We can facilitate them within reason until their fear calms down a bit, but let the rest of us life how we want to.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

"We can facilitate them within reason until their fear calms down a bit, "

That's what social distancing laws, vaccine mandates and mask requirements do.

[sawno]

No those aren't reasonable since they disrupt my life and my health. Neither is it reasonably to forcefully inject people with dangerous chemicals. Be happy people like me are still willing to accomodate some measures on a very limited scale. We could also just stop obeying outright and cause problems.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Wearing a mask in public doesn't disrupt your life and the long term impacts of COVID are way worse than the vaccine so if you're worried about the vaccine side effects, you should stay home for fear of getting COVID. And if 2/5ths of the population stay out of work for a year that's gonna ruin the economy of your country for years to come and affect your life way worse than any lockdown did.

[sawno]

Yes it does disrupt my life. I get ill from masks if i wear them longer than 5 minutes because of a health issue that causes a kind if hyperventilation. Omnicron is mild. I am not risking my fertility, myocarditis, or a overly strong immune response. The vaccinated are most at risk, i'm fine as is. Neither does the vaccine stop the spread any more than what i already do.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Well the percentage of the population that suffers from hyperventilation as a result of mask wearing is way less than those who have preexisting conditions and you're more likely to suffer long term health impacts from catching covid than the vaccine:

www.nature.com/.../s41598-021-95565-8

[sawno]

Statistics are irrelevant, i'm not a disposable for the greater good kind of deal. If the mask hurts my health i see harm. in being made to wear it. It should be a choice for everyone.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Well, if you don't want to wear a mask then you can stay home but masks don't prevent you from catching COVID, they prevent you from spreading it so it shouldn't be a choice any more than driving whatever speed you want on the highway should be because you get anxious if you sit in a car for too long.

[sawno]

There is no demonstrable reduction in spreading it if i do wear something. In the mask case my bodily integrity is harmed. In the car example while true for my case (Which is why currently i do not drive for the safety of myself) it normally does not impact bodily integrity to either drive a certain speed or wear a seatbelt for example. Masks impair basic bodily functions like breathing, speed limits and seatbelts don't.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Mask mandates have a demonstrable impact on the spread of COVID than leaving the choice to the individual and getting covid has gar worse health impacts than the mask does.

[Crepe_tart]

That could be a good experiment, but in a society where everybody screams "I have rights!" to any decision or event we go through... no, it will not work

[joeldalton]

Lol, you say “I have rights” like it’s a bad thing.

[Crepe_tart]

@joeldalton if you're saying it for everything that you aren't comfortable with isn't good

[joeldalton]

Bullshit. I have the right to body autonomy. If I can’t even control my own body I’m a slave to the government. That is not freedom. The sooner you learn that the better off you’ll be.

[Crepe_tart]

@joeldalton So you think everybody has to live up to your own desires?

[joeldalton]

That’s dumb. You can live your life however you want. Wear 6 masks and get boosters till your blood clots. I don’t care. Just leave the rest of us alone.

[Crepe_tart]

@joeldalton Alright, I'll leave you with your little tiny brain of yours who can't accept others opinions. Poor woman who has ever had to deal with you. Have a great day!

[Crepe_tart]

@joeldalton I don't want to waste my time talking with someone that thinks retard is a word you can use to attack people. Your true colors and your weak and fagile personality is showing a lot by the way

[joeldalton]

Yawn.

[msc545]

@joeldalton Reported

[joeldalton]

lol, when someone blocks you then replies. The ULTIMATE pussy move.

[Crepe_tart]

Thanks for the MHO, I hope that guy joeldalton is very pissed

[joeldalton]

Lmao. yeah I’m livid that you got some imaginary internet points.

[FunkyMonkee]

Sounds VERY plausible to me!! But, what they should REALLY do is keep taking vitamin D, zinc and HCQ! If every body did that a year ago, this fucking disease would've been DEAD almost a year ago and we wouldn't TALKING about this shit anymore!!! WHY is taking 3 or 4 pills a day such an INCREDIBLE hassle to help save more lives? NO!! They're gonna make ME wear a fucking mask that doesn't do a fucking thing to stop it and take these poisonous shots that could easily kill me or severely fuck up my life!!

[msc545]

Some people are simply infected with hypotheses that are false.

[FunkyMonkee]

@msc545 I know and I feel sorry for you people but, you can eventually learn the truth.

[msc545]

That might be sort of an interesting idea except that all the stuff that you mentioned simply doesn't work. If it did honestly life would be a lot easier for everyone. Just out of curiosity and I'm afraid to ask but what do you think about the new pills that Pfizer has come out with that seem to be very effective against covid?

[FunkyMonkee]

@msc545 I know, you believe in the flat Earth, too. Don't you?
Everything I've mentioned DOES work!! So does Robitussin CF (my neighbor's entire family had covid last year and used Robirusssin CF and Tylenol to get rid of it!), Ivermectin and Interferon!!
I've only just heard of those pills last night and they sound a bit dodgy.
Hey, did ya hear? Boris removed all the mask and lockdown bullshit in England! Partly because he got caught not abiding by them himself at a party! Imagine a virus so deadly and contagious that it disappears when a politician is at risk of losing public office.
And, this just in!!!
https://youtu.be/D70kZDLGr4Q

And, this might open your eyes, if you bother to listen to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu34d82lghA

[msc545]

Actually, Monkee, I believe in Science, but let's not get caught up in that. I think the Robitussin recommendation is kind of hilarious - if only it worked.

[FunkyMonkee]

@msc545 Obviously not!! Otherwise, you'd know what I know!
It DID work! My neighbor's entire family is still alive and well over a year later! He takes me to the store at least once a month!
There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see!! I DO hope you take good care of that dog and keep your white cane handy!

[msc545]

The dog is fine. No worries.

[TheBigGuy9]

There is no pandemic. It’s fabricated. 99.99% recover from it. Do the math. .01% of 350,000,000 people is 3,500,000 deaths. It’s been like this for a long time. People die everyday from everything. That’s life. Stop thinking this is so bad because the media repeats it on a daily basis.


I was born with diseases and I got Covid. I had a sore throat for a day. This is not about getting everyone better. This is about power. Divide us. Get us fighting amongst one another and then move their agenda forward.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

.01% of 350,000,000 is 35,000 dumbass. And given that, 865,000 Americans died of COVID, that means 8,650,000,000 Americans contracted it. Problem: there aren't that many people on Earth.

[TheBigGuy9]

Lol Thanks for correcting me on that. I missed a few zeros. I’m not entirely sober at the moment.

[jshm2]

The problem is that the dipshit, entitled, minority will STILL find an excuse/not care and break the rules.

The reason the pandemic has got to this stage is not only slow acting government policy, but people doing the wrong thing. Had people actually listened and isolated corrected those first few weeks, the pandemic would have been over.

It's like people just "remembered" all the things they can't live without, when they are told to live without for a week or two.

[Snakeyes7]

It's smart for them to do I guess though it doesn't guarantee 100% protection. Because it has been proven that being cooped up in the house can lead to some pretty bad mental health issues I think they should be able to risk it if they think it is worth it.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

But if you do take that approach one of two things will happen:

1. If they all stay home, they're taken out of the work force and the economy collapses
2. They go out and the healthcare system is completely overwhelmed and millions die

Both outcomes are worse than any side affects of coronavirus restrictions.

[Snakeyes7]

All of the people who are at risk of covid? The economy would take a hit for sure but it would depend on what is considered at risk. Comorbidities that cannot be fixed is probably a good reason to stay home if they feel that it is worth doing but unless they can work from home they have to leave eventually to pay for their expenses. Even so, they are not going to instantly catch it as soon as they step outside. It may take weeks, months or even at least a year to catch it. Being vaccinated would help but then again not everyone is eligible to take it. On top of that, some people will think it is worth the risk and some will think it isn't. They are not all going to make the same decision, so really the outcome is all up to their individual choices.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Well, in a nutshell
1. 40% of the population have one or more comorbidities
2. 6% of the deaths from COVID had no comorbidities
3. The average number of comorbidities of an individual who died of COVID is 2.6 (half of all people who died from COVID had more while half had less).

So if we were to have a guassian distribution where the Y axis is the portion of people who died of COVID and the X axis is the number of comorbidities people have, the standard distribution (sigma) would be 1.03 and the mean would be 2.6 (because if you plug in those numbers, 6% of the deaths due to COVID would be those who have less than 1 comorbidity).

homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/.../normal.html

However, if you want to let it rip, the healthcare system would get overwhelmed, people can't get access to treatment and someone with 1 comorbidity now has a similar chance of dying to someone who has 2. Now, if getting access to treatment decreases the chance of dying of COVID by a factor of 6. So if enough people were to stay at home that we would have the same death toll we had, those with 1.6 comorbodities and above have to isolate themselves. Given that 40% of the population have 1 or more, 16% have 2 or more, 6.4% have 3 or more etc... .4^1.6 = .25

So 25% of the population would have to isolate themselves for the duration of the pandemic. That would cause an economic collapse worse than the great depression.

[Snakeyes7]

They might have to in order to have a reduced chance of getting it but I guarantee you that many of them are willing to take the risk and expose themselves. Even if we compare the number of cases to the number of deaths, the death rate is still extremely low like 98.8% survival even if 94% of the people who died of covid has at least one comorbidity.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The death rate is currently around 1% but that's only because we've gotten better at treating it. When the healthcare system gets overwhelmed, it would probably exceed 3.4%.

[Snakeyes7]

How much of a possibility would that be? Maybe the hospitals in really dense areas would be used up but what about hospitals in other areas?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

In other areas you'll have fewer hospitals per unit area and will be smaller. Any way you slice it expecting those who are vulnerable to stay home will crash the economy worse than the lockdown did.

[Snakeyes7]

Ok then maybe they should make the decision to leave the house and be careful of the virus. No government involvement needed, they can just be smart about it.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

"Ok then maybe they should make the decision to leave the house and be careful of the virus."

That's what most of them have been doing and that won't curtail the spread of the virus as much as social distancing and mask mandates did. Any fight against a pandemic is first and foremost a collective one. I know the right likes to portray the "government" and the "people" as separate entities but the whole point of the Revolution is that the people as a whole decide how they're governed.

"E pluribus Unum; of many one"

[Snakeyes7]

Yeah but those people are always going to agree with how a country should be run. Just like what we are talking about.

I think it is better for the government to leave the people alone because I don't think there is anything they can do and will only make life overall worse with new and very likely permanent changes; you want their involvement because you believe that they know exactly what to do to reduce the effects of a pandemic, even if it means ignoring our rights.

I don't understand why this pandemic needs to be a collective thing when it is the individual that gets sick. It's not like if one person gets sick we all do. Everyone has a mind of their own and getting everyone to march in lockstep to solve a pandemic is impossible even if you kill those who step even the tiniest bit out of line, there is a reason societies like that don't last all that long.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

No one knows "exactly what to do during a pandemic" but we do know that acting collectively against a pandemic (because while individuals get sick, they spread the disease to others) results in less deaths:

Did you read the report that showed COVID death rates (deaths per/100000 people) were 6 times lower in those with mask mandates? ↗

And this affirms what simulations have demonstrated time after time: that while the more people who social distance, the slower the virus spreads BUT the correlation isn't linear and even if say 1/4 of the population acts carelessly, the spread rate of the virus could be 1/2 of what it would be otherwise.



https://youtu.be/gxAaO2rsdIs

And COVID restrictions like mask mandates and social distancing rules don't take away our rights any more than indecent exposure laws and fire codes do.

Everyone has a mind of their own but you don't live in a cave; your well being is dependent on the well being of the community and disagreeing with COVID safety laws doesn't give you a right to violate them any more than disagreeing with a speed limit gives you the right to violate it. If there was no speed limit, too many people would be afraid to drive on the roads, disrupting commerce and tanking the economy. Similarly, without social distancing rules and mask mandates, too many people would be afraid to partake in the economy causing it to crash.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

And yeah, these are all "likely permanent changes" while county after county ends their mask mandates as omicron signals that COVID-19 is becoming endemic and the new case rate plummets. Well know we can see that all this propaganda about government overreach was just fear mongering.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

But I looked into it and it turns out that there is a historic parallel between what's going on now and what happened during the Holocaust. After the allies found the camps they quarantined them in the face of the typhus outbreak:

collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa14315

Bet you think that the allied soldiers were the "real Nazis" there huh?

[Snakeyes7]

I bet they do have fewer rates of covid, in fact there might have been a reduction of diseases in general. The problem is this is not the government's responsibility. The only purpose the government has is to protect the rights of the people from itself and from others. Being sick is not a violation of rights and I am sure the people who devised the concept of people having freedoms knew that as they lived in a time where diseases that are trivial to us today could kill anyone. They would have mentioned that all of the freedoms are null and void if there is an outbreak but they didn't.

No one has the freedom to indecently expose themselves and, to my knowledge, no one gets arrested over fire codes unless there was an intentional starting of a fire or intentionally blocking the exit, which is a violation of people's right to life.

I might even go as far as to say that all speed limits are really there to do is to gather funds for the police and because the fact is that the vast majority of speed limit settings are arbitrary and designed to be broken. According to a study done by the U. S. Department of Transportation Federal Highway Administration in 1992, raising or lowering speed limits have very little effect on driver behavior and that raising the limit could potentially reduce accidents but only by about 5%. It also says that, while traffic engineers say that setting limits at the 85% are compliant to it is the most reasonable safe speed, the majority of state set limits are so far below that less than 50% are compliant under the misconception that the number of accidents is directly proportional to the set limit. https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

[Snakeyes7]

Some might argue that speeding is a victimless crime and should be regarded on a similar level as a thought crime or pre-crime on that it should not be a thing at all. Just because there isn't a speed limit, doesn't mean you have to speed; that there is self interest in both reducing liability to self and in trying to prevent harm to others and finally that there is a difference between limits and suggestions.

Those covid measures has shown no sign of stopping and possibly getting worse until people grew some balls and said that they had enough and the science suddenly changes. It is amazing to me that the left, who as a collective say that they are for the workers suddenly threw a fit when the convoy in Canada happened. "Noooo, the workers shouldn't rise up like that!"

As far as typhus goes, that made more sense since it wasn't a quarantine applied to the entire country just because some soldiers came back with it.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The COVID lockdown was lifted after a few months after we learned from experience how to contain the virus with things like mask mandates and those are being dropped now because the new case rate is plummeting as the virus is becoming endemic. It's got nothing to do with people saying "enough is enough".

[Snakeyes7]

Oh is it now? How convenient that the science suddenly changed after news about the trucker convoy in Canada and the US currently doing the same thing right now, or maybe not anymore because the media doesn't want to talk about it.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Science didn't "suddenly change"; since the pandemic began, epidemiologists predicted that over time, the virus would become less deadly and become just one of many illnesses that we experience on a regular basis and this is what's happening with omicron. Yeah, there were protests during the omicron wave but there were also mass protests during the alpha and delta waves. What's the difference this time around: COVID is becoming endemic and I predicted you guys would try to spin the narrative months ago:

Once the pandemic is over and the restrictions are lifted, how will Trumpists justify their fear mongering about the "attempts at authoritarianism"? ↗

[Snakeyes7]

You did not get very many responses to your question but I would have said that when we reach the point that the virus will be endemic, the government will never let us know this because of all the "emergency powers" we have gained over the past century, we have never seen them end. Income tax and the Patriot Act are examples of "emergency powers" that have not gone away even though they are not needed anymore, they were never needed in fact.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

There were social distancing laws and mask mandates during the Spanish Flu pandemic that were lifted when the outbreak ended so that claim (in this context) would be utter BS.

[Snakeyes7]

The constitution didn't authorize them to do that either, it never says that you can disregard any of the citizens human rights if there is a pandemic. If the state was doing its job "emergency powers" wouldn't exist at all.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The constitution doesn't prohibit them either.

[Snakeyes7]

I literally just said it does. The entire point of the bill of rights is a promise that the state makes to their own people that they will protect the rights they were born with, period. No pandemic, no war, no crisis whatsoever permits them to break this promise.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

None of the 10 amendments have been violated by the COVID policy.

[awkward_author]

I don't think that would help unless people didn't visit them either. COVID-19 can still be spread to them this way. Then there's the negative impact on their mental health...

[UsernameXLTX]

"2/5ths of the population isolating themselves from the rest of society will do " ...3/5 of the population working is better than everyone in locked down for months dude.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

But with the lockdown we can select essential versus non-essential jobs; those with preexisting conditions are more or less randomly distributed across all fields.

[UsernameXLTX]

Bro you're cherry picking. You've asked this question a number of times and you still don't make any sense.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

No, I didn't ask this question many times; I've covered different ways COVID will mess up society way worse than the lockdown did.

[Juxtapose]

78% of those hospitalized for covid are obese.

This is mostly a pandemic of the obese lol.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

42% of the US population is "obese" (BMI > 30).

[Juxtapose]

Sucks to be them.

[Reijen]

It should be all about choice. People take the risks into account, and plan their life accordingly. As it always has been.

[msc545]

No, I think the people who refuse to get vaccinated or wear masks need to stay home - they are the selfish ones.

[OddBeMe]

All because of your stupid anti vax identity?