Complete the following. "Abortion is... "?

[Snsl153]

Murder

An unfortunate, but necessary evil.

No big deal. It's just a clump of cells.

A very complex issue, and I don't know why so many pretend otherwise.

Something else.

[nightdrot]

Voted A - and would have voted D.

If you assume that a being is a human being from the moment of conception, then yes, it logically must be murder. Which indeed is why the courts and the law have tied themselves up in knots since Roe v. Wade trying to avoid defining when life begins.

Hence why, at first, abortion was banned after the third trimester. Then the limit was refined to viability. Then, as viability has regressed to earlier and earlier stages of gestation, the limit has regressed to earlier and earlier in time.

It is also why, now, some states have begun to use the "heartbeat standard" as the point after which abortion is not legal. All human beings have a heart. If the law can be compelled to recognize a heartbeat as definitive of a human being - the point being that most women will not know they are pregnant till after the point in time when a heartbeat is detectable - then abortion will be effectively banned.

What the courts do not want to codify is the idea that the life of a human being can be taken - sanctioned by law - absent cause. A child being guilty of no crime save the fact of its conception, which itself it did not cause.

Suffice to say, embody that idea in law and the consequences would be profound - and very bad. So the courts - as Roe v. Wade effectively took the question out of the hand of legislatures - are turning intellectual handstands to set a standard while avoiding the central question of when a fetus is a person.

Indeed, the pro-choice argument is rooted in an intellectual conundrum. If the fetus is not a human person from the moment of conception, at what point - EXACTLY - does it become human? What, scientifically, legally, and morally, is the difference between the child one second before that EXACT moment, and one second after it? What are the implications if the law defines a date and then it turns out - after further scientific analysis - that it got it wrong?

The courts are using an evasion. The fetus - from the moment of conception - cannot be anything other than a human person. It will not be a duck or a horse. Logically, a thing cannot be other than what it is at any stage of its development. Because if it can be, then scientifically the fetus has an equal potential to become an elephant as a baby.

So the courts have fallen back on a semantic difference. We call a fetus a fetus, a baby a baby and a boy a boy and a man a man - even though, at every point in that continuum it is the same thing. An individual human person. The fact that we give different names to the same being at different points in time does not change the essential nature of the being. It is what it is and cannot be anything else at any point in that continuum.

This then being why the point at which abortion is permitted is, slowly but surely, falling back earlier in time. Again, it having started at the first trimester and having since, in law, been refined as "viability," as the courts have periodically rewritten the standard. (Again, also remembering, legislatures - Federal, state or local - since Roe v. Wade, are excluded from drawing the line.)

Long way around, yes, logically and philosophically, abortion is murder by virtue of it being the taking of the life of a human being who is not guilty of any crime at the will of another being. The law has only avoided stating that fact by relying on a semantic fiat - and a shifting point in time - that bears neither scientific, nor logical nor moral scrutiny.

[exitseven]

It is a complex issue and nobody seems to want to step up and figure it all out.

[exitseven]

Thanks for the MHO😎

[AGirl_x]

I had an abortion and I can't fuckin stand to see women who fuckin... Celebrate it... I am not against it but you can't call yourself PRO abortion! It's complicated, it's an experience that should change your life, change you to the fuckin core. Cause in my case it was just nothing, not a person, bla bla... But I can't forget the heartbeats and the night before when I was talking to my future baby who will never be born.. I don't know how I can explain, I don't think it's possible. But it's not an easy escape or a birth control method and it's necessary, it should be available to every woman but not to be taken so lightly...

[VanillaSalt]

I supported safe, legal, rare… but it’s not rare. It’s celebrated. It’s used far far far too often. Less then 2% off abortions are rape or incest according to planned parenthood. That’s the rare I wanna see. I wanna see abortions cut down to 2% off what it is.

Unfortunately, like chewing gum in class, that rights being taken away by people that took that right and ran with it…

At the very least taking abortion from the federal government and giving the choice to state governments is a better way to handle it.

[Snsl153]

Yes, exactly, it should NOT be taken so lightly! It's sometimes, on rare occasions, an unfortunate necessity, but it's still horrible.

[HeartFullOfGlue]

not something to discus while your grandfather is having a heart attack"

[razelove]

Something I don't care about. If I'm fooling around, I use a fake name as protection, no strings attached means just that.

If I'm in a relationship, we're aiming for babies, so abortions wouldn't be something to have. Either way it's irrelevant to me, this will play out as it plays out, and not affect my life unless a protest blocks a street I need to go down or something.

[SimpleGuy95]

I´d go for D because I don´t see abortion as the key problem but as the consequence of the problem. Though I´m personally pro-life but to fair I don´t think that making abortion illegal would be a good idea because it´s just fighting a symptom and solving a problem.
As long as a woman feels that the ability of getting pregnant is a more of a burden to her life than privilege.
As long as HR can hold against a woman that they can pay her less because she could get pregnant and would therefore work less.
As long as getting pregnant feels like a downgrade of life. As long as chances are high that a guy would leave the moment decides against the abortion.
Chances are high that women will try to find a way to not go through pregnancy.
If society changed and made pregnancy and bringing children into this world less like a burden or even some kind of slave duty, (Like it´s something you have to do and you can´t decide if you want to) at least some women will search for every possibility they can find to prevent a pregnancy.
9 months is a long time especially if she´s alone and has to work because the guy she slept with left because she decided to keep the baby.
Happened to two my colleagues both new their guys from church.

[ronaldo75]

Abortion is currently one of the best ways to keep genetic trash from being born. Most abortions in the USA are performed on low-income, uneducated single women with black and latina women having the highest demographic percentages. Over 80% of these kids won't have fathers. So... are we supposed to think these kids are on their way to huge success and societal contributions as adults? Doubt it. Had it not been for Roe v Wade we'd have something like 70 million more welfare cases in this country. No way. I dont care what people think about abortion or it's ethical ramifications. The population of the USA is a enough of a mess - now y'all want to make it worse by forcing the worst type of women to start shitting out even MORE degeneracy into the world? Nope.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Honestly I never thought of it that way but you raise a good point

[VanillaSalt]

I see your way of thinking and have considered it… let’s complicate it a bit though.

If abortion wasn’t a thing do you think as many women would be having unsafe sex? It’s obvious to me that without abortion there would be fewer women WILLING to have unprotected sex. Take away welfare and contraception and how few would be willing to have sex outside of marriage? This difference might not even cut the numbers in half BUT it would change how men and women look at sex and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It WOULD decrease the number of single mothers and fathers and change the view of sex so for that reason I don’t support abortion. I like it as a choice for the most extreme circumstances but you can’t make everything you disagree with illegal and everything you agree with legal. There’s more then one right way to do this that’s why put it in the hands of the states.

Some will ban some will protect and we can judge their societies for ourselves. At the very least both sides can move where their values are enforced.

[Anpu23]

A complex subject that has become way to politicized. These are personal choices, ones that should be heartfelt and not for others to decide.

Too many people are subscribing life where there is none, even the bible says that life begins with the first breath independent of the mother.

[Snsl153]

Actually no, that's not what the Bible says. Go back and read it again.

[Agape93]

He's actually quite correct on this

[Snsl153]

@Agape93 The story about Adam and Eve in Genesis?

[Agape93]

... you're joking right

[Snsl153]

@Agape93 external-content.duckduckgo.com/.../

[Agape93]

The fact you even need to ask about your own literature. Genesis 2:7 literally tells you that God breathes life into you at birth to make you fully human and alive. So yes. He's correct.

[Agape93]

Yeah I'm not clicking some link from duck duck go.

[Snsl153]

@Agape93 What's wrong with 'DuckDuckGo'? It's better than 'Google', that's for sure.

[Agape93]

I don't trust it nor it's anonymity for users.

[Agape93]

But anyways, I've already made my point here so I'll hop off and go to bed. Do try reading your book before replying, he's smarter than you are

[Snsl153]

@Agape93 My "own literature". Well, first off, it isn't mine, I didn't write it. Secondly, yes, Genesis 2:7 as can be seen in the picture I posted here, simply states,
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"
That story is about the very first man, the only man in fact who began life that way. Since then we've had this thing you may have heard of called "sexual reproduction".
Regardless of whether or not you believe the story, or whether or not it's true, or anything else really, I shouldn't need to point out the obvious fact that the tale isn't about mothers, or when or under what circumstances a foetus becomes human, or a person, or anything related to the topic of abortion. It's just irrelevant to the debate.

[Anpu23]

There are lots of passages that differentiate a fetus and a baby. Including Mosaic law that fines someone for causing a woman to lose a child (abortion) which is just a fine vs murder which is a death penalty. The single passage that is commonly used that I knew you from... is not indicative of life as most Christians believe that a soul predates birth but does not suggest that a fetus is a living being.

The genesis passage is not the only passage where "breath in the nostrils" is used there are others. In fact it is quite clear from a biblical perspective that breath is life and that a fetus is not a living being.

[Anpu23]

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

[BeMuse]

Abortion is... sacrificing your child to Moloch so that so douche bag can practice his devil worshiping rituals at your expense... The entire planned parenthood push started as the Nego Project by Bill Gates family to exterminate Blacks. But they were willing to include Democrats of other races later on as well.

[BeMuse]

They con you into sacrificing your child, then they burn them up with other medical waste continuing a ritual that is thousands of years old. They're pretty effective at marketing their deception though.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

A personal choice and something that religious zealots should have zero say in what another person does with their bodies.

[genericname85]

abortion is by definition not "murder", if it's legal. it's only murder if it's illegal. otherwise its just killing. American is totally fine with killing. death sentence is a thing.

[athlete_7]

Depends why it is done tbh. If someone can't plan a child they should use contraceptives abortion should be the last measure if they want to. But if the women wants it for career reasons then its whole another debate.

[Anonymous]

and the fallen angel kasdeja taught the art of abortion

[Snsl153]

What?

[Opinion Owner]

BOOK OF ENOCH

CHAPTER 69

those women who follow kasdeja and kill their children
will have to answer to the most HIGH

above the dome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMr6Qb0_5kM

[Snsl153]

Oh God, not YOU again! Get lost with this retarded rubbish! The topic is abortion, not rocketry, or your stupid flat-Earth crap!

[Shamalien]

It is 100% murder. You need to decide when it’s “necessary” I guess. In situations of rape or where the mother’s life is threatened there is a strong argument, but as a form of birth control, not so much

[Lliam]

'D'. Unfortunately, it's sometimes the best option.

[WhitneySnow]

I voted B and I also agree with D, but some of my friends agree with C

[Subarugirl]

Abortion is a private choice that the government shouldn't have any say in.

[WhiteBoyChill]

So men rapin women is a private choice that the government shouldn’t have any say in

[Subarugirl]

@WhiteBoyChill So you think that if you get raped you wouldn't want the government to do anything about it?

[CallmeTheKnight]

A law and a complicated issue. I can see why many oppose it and I understand why many support it.

[SmokinAces2000]

A private choice that the government shouldn’t have any say in

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Abortion is just abortion. Whether you see it as murder or not, it's just abortion with it's own risks and benefits.

[007kingifrit]

it should be legal for rape, incest and poverty, but other than that no

[Snsl153]

Poverty? So poor people shouldn't breed? For rape and incest yes, but poverty no.

[007kingifrit]

they will just become a tax burden on the rest of us. free abortions for the poor is best for everyone. they want it, we want it.

[Sarahnah]

@007kingifrit ironically enough banning abortion affects poor people the most. Richer people can move out of state to where it is legal and get one. Poor people are stuck and can't afford that option.

[007kingifrit]

@Sarahnah that's why i support exceptions for certain zip codes

[VanillaSalt]

Yay kill poor people! *sarcasm

[007kingifrit]

@VanillaSalt oh please cmon, they LOVE it. why do you think they live next to toxic dumps? poor people love dying

[shortster]

Murder. Life begins when the DNA from the sperm fuses with the DNA from the egg to form the zygote.

[andreasderjuengere]

... a private decision that needs no public discussion?

[Kaytiee]

Very very good answer

[Snsl153]

Why do you believe it shouldn't be discussed? As far as I'm concerned, no topic should be taboo, no matter how controversial it may seem to be. In fact, the more controversial it is, the more we need to talk about it.

[andreasderjuengere]

Thanks, @Kaytiee.
And @Snsl153: I don't think of a ''Taboo'' here. What I mean is, that abortion is related to very individual conditions. I see many people who 'make decisions' for others; but this one can't be a categorical ''yes'' or ''no''.
My Daughter-surprise once confronted me with this ''question''. I (or we) opted to give her a chance to live, as we were able to supply her with a reasonable start in life. But I would never condemn someone who -for his or her own reasons- feels unable or unwilling to have a child.
For certain. it can be talked about individual points of view. But it would be ''incorrect'' to simply imprint own opinions on others without knowing the full background.

[Kaytiee]

I agree wholely, you put it very maturely and I respect that. I see way too many people wanting to have a say in others' personal and often traumatic choice.

[Sabretooth]

murder but this shows that all of our rights are subject.