Do you think the recent reinstating of NYC’s chokehold ban will make it more difficult for officers to do their jobs and gives a benefit to criminals?

[Anonymous]

Recent court ruling brought back this ban after being struck down not too long ago.

A lot of claimed it is controversial and will make officers’ jobs unreasonably more difficult than it already it is due to the wording of the ban.

“making it possible for cops to be charged with a misdemeanor crime if they do anything during an arrest that restricts a person’s breathing ‘in any way’.”

Yes

No

[SaoirseS]

No, I don't think it will make it more difficult for officers to do their jobs or embolden criminals. PBA/FOP groups may petition to have the law amended if wording is a problem, but I doubt they'll get any traction if any proposed amendment outlines exceptions. It looks clear enough to me: don't employ any holds that restrict airways or blood flow to the head. Considering that a patrol officer is armed with a sidearm, a telescoping baton and/or a nightstick, a tazer, OC spray, and usually has a shotgun with bean bag rounds and rifle in a patrol unit, I don't think the argument that depriving an officer of authority to choke someone out quite qualifies as depriving them of the tools they need to do the job. It's a New York State law, but there are several police departments across the country that have prohibited choke holds and other tactics that endanger a citizen as a matter of policy. Really odd that this question came up the same day I had a patrol supervisor in my office ranting and raving about it to the point he forgot why he was there to get in my face (over my prohibition against open carry of firearms in funeral chapels, including police officers). They'll adapt to it, and if they don't, then there's nothing wrong with holding offenders accountable for it.

[Jamie05rhs]

@SaoirseS Just curious... why don't you allow police officers to carry guns at funerals? Funeral services have been the target of shooting attacks before.

[SaoirseS]

@Jamie05hrs. They can carry them inside the funeral chapels, just not openly.

[SaoirseS]

@Jamie05rhs*

[Jamie05rhs]

Oh, okay.

[EllaNella]

in germany chokeholds aren't used either and we have waaaay lower crime statistics

[NathanDavis]

you don't really need a potentially lethal choke hold to control one person, when you do have the right technique and proper training... especially when it is four cops and one civilian

even if it were just one cop and a bigger civilian... the right technique and proper training would be enough

for everything else... just get your taser ready

[Asker]

I think the contention here is the wording of the ban.

Also, from my understanding, NYC is the only big city PD that has this specific ban.

The wording “in any way” makes nearly every technique or position a potential issue.

You cannot always control how a fight with an aggressor is going to go whether you are trained or not.

First-hand experience, I was grappling with a petite woman who is maybe 90 lb soaking wet and untrained. Compare that with me who is much heavier, muscular, a man, and trained.

On paper, I’m supposed to absolutely dominate this woman.

It’s not always that simple.

Those who do not fight or train martial arts won’t know the reality of going physical with another person.

How much of a fight that 90 lb soaking woman put up against me? Quite a bit.

I’ve also heard of men a lot heavier and bigger than I going against the same 90 lb soaking wet women and having hard time controlling her.

When someone truly doesn’t want you to control them, they will put up a fight that may exceed what you expect.

The ban seems to be too broad or encompassing, which will make officers question every single movement and technique that they enact even if they are justified in going hands-on and even if they legitimately defending themselves.

It can be a debilitating thing to worry about when you are in a physical confrontation where you do not know how it’s going to end.

[NathanDavis]

here is the thing though... cops are professionals

so they will given exact guidelines and they SHOULD be getting the proper training

now, if any cop that is not able to contain a 90lbs individual without resorting to situation in which he ends struggling and needing a potentially lethal choke hold... this person should not be a cop, it is that simple

[Asker]

Again, the contention is the wording.

A lot of the techniques and positions taught to officers revolving around grappling control, joint locks, and more can indeed be in violation of the ban policy.

Keep in mind, that the majority of interactions with police officers end peacefully.

There was a reason the ban was struck down previously.

It was vague said one Supreme Court Justice.

Also, this recent one is said to be a little bit more over the top or extreme.

[NathanDavis]

" The "diaphragm" law... made it a criminal misdemeanor to use a restraint method that restricts the flow of air or blood by compressing the windpipe or carotid arteries or by sitting, kneeling, or standing on the chest or back "in a manner that compresses the diaphragm."

this looks extremely and fairly simple to follow... don't sit on top on a civilian's chest... and especially do not kneel on top on someone's chest for 9 minutes

[NathanDavis]

by the way... the NYPD itself.. already trains cops to NOT DO THIS

so cops should not be doing this in the first place

the law only changes one thing... now, the cops who insist on doing this despite their training telling them NOT to do it, will be hold accountable on court

[Asker]

So, I started training jiujitsu in 2011-2012.

I’ve been on and off with it ever since.

Police officers all across the country have heavily implemented jiujitsu into their training, which is the best thing that they can do since most of the hands on interactions are joints and grappling related.

Keep in mind, prominent individuals in the MMA world have tried to tell the NYC officials to NOT reinstate the ban because many applicable jiujitsu techniques that are used for appropriate control would be potentially in violation of the ban the way it is written.

For example, if you Google the “mount” position, you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Or “knee on belly” and “side Mount” or “side control.”

These are positions of great dominance, control, and advantage for the grappler in a self-defense situation.

A lot of these positions will make it uncomfortable to move, breathe, and maneuver just overall.

Basically you have to choose positions where, in any way, it cannot violate the ban which is poorly written as many would agree.

How can a professional do their job properly if city officials take away proper tools?

Like how can a surgeon do their job without any of the equipment, operating room, staff, etc.

[NathanDavis]

all of that can be avoided by using the taser.. quite simple

[Agagagagaga]

Any application of force from a police office by way of baton, taser, firearm, or physical restraint can potentially be lethal.

[NathanDavis]

@Agagagagaga yes... but those are legal means for a police officer to resort to when things get really serious

and a choke hold in NY is NOT a legal option

so the law changes that only... makes police accountable for going with an action that is already in training for cops to not go with

[Agagagagaga]

So it’s not the choke hold that bothers you. It’s the legality.

[NathanDavis]

@Agagagagaga it is not about what bothers me personally...

it is about the point that the original asker brought up in the first place... which is the legality of it, and the wording itself

[lofii]

All you have to do is cooperate and you remove any chance of getting choked.

Or know your rights.

Agressive people who refuse to do both deserve to get choked out.

These suburban people out here giving their 2 cents don't know how real in the field it is.

[OlderAndWiser]

Everything that you do to take away the options of police officers emboldens criminals.

[Juxtapose]

Did you know officers receive less time in training than hairdressers do?

Why aren't martial art masters teaching these guys how to contain people on the ground without killing them? I'm a civilian and I can fucking do that, 11 years of training baby!

[Juxtapose]

All in all though, these pigs are corrupt as fuck I don't feel bad about making their job harder when they beat the fuck out of people if they don't have their cameras on. Come to my neighborhood sometime and ask people about their experiences with the police, about how the police would even do drugs right in front of them or come into their homes without a warrant.

[MagicCarpet1]

Yes, NYC Police Officers can't catch me Because they choke like a girl now. LMAO!

[exitseven]

The chokehold was rarely used but it was a non lethal was to restrain a criminal. Maybe they would rather get shot instead?

[MCheetah]

Nope. Good thing it's back.

[jimmy2]

No not really