Why don’t pro-lifers and pro-choicers ever talk about widespread available contraceptives to PREVENT bigger problems from happening?

[globetrotter22]

I have been saying this for years. When it comes down to it I am technically “pro life” but I am also 100% pro birth control including plan B.

I am all for:

• having nation wide state sponsored contraceptive options for both women and men
• allowing girls of any age obtain contraceptive at public schools without needing parental consent
• investing more money into contraceptive research and development. They say no contraceptive is 100% effective but they are getting close.
• reforming and streamlining adoption programs. There are lots of infertile couples who are waiting months even years to adopt a child.

However when it comes to abortion that is where I draw the line. That isn’t a “clump of cells” (or a “parasite” as some twisted activists call it). That is a growing human being. Abortion is NOT a contraceptive.

If all these pro life and pro choice groups put half the effort into putting together initiatives to prevent unwanted pregnancies vs. going ballistic over their ideologies than abortion would be what is supposed to be: safe, legal and rare. It would only be necessary for scenarios of involving rape, incest, danger to the mothers life. Also if prenatal testing determines there is something seriously wrong with the baby (deformities, Down syndrome, etc) it may be justified in some cases.

Just my thoughts. By why can’t more people get on board with this idea above? It would actually save money (and lives) if it was applied thoroughly.

[MCheetah]

I talk about it often. But the reason the pro-life side is so damn unreasonable, is that there is no compromise or halfway point with them, and they base their arguments 100% on pure emotions and literally zero science, logic, or common sense.

It's ironic, considering so many right-leaning people mock the left for being overemotional and lacking logic, but they do it even worse than the Progressive left when it comes to abortion.

Doubly ironic when you consider the right is the side that will happily shoot and murder people for the smallest of offenses, but want to moral-fag about "protectin' dem babies," as if ANYONE on the left or right gives a flying f*ck about their fellow man, let alone some imaginary children doomed to grow up with severe mental health problems, trauma, and abuse, by being forced into life by an unwilling mother who never wanted them or loved them. Assuming that child even makes it to 18 and doesn't get killed by reckless parenting from women clearly not responsible enough to raise a child, but was forced to by dumb hick logic based on religion and pure emotion.

But in short, many on the pro-life side believes birth control is just as bad as abortion (technically it IS abortion; but they don't rationalize it like that, because "didn't reach the egg, blah, blah, blah").

So your idea of a "compromise" is neither satisfactory to the left or right. You'd still be using big government to oppress people's bodily autonomy over illogical emotions of a embryo being "a baby" when it objectively is not a baby, or a fully complete human being (an embryo is from egg fertilization to 3 months, and a fetus is from 2 to 6 months; you can't call it "a baby" until a bare minimum of six months or something close to a human; that is pure factual science.)

Worse, you don't even know these people and it's frankly no one's f*cking business nor right, to tell someone if they're ready to be a parent or not. No one but the parents. Certainly not Billy Joe from West Texas stating his opinions "Cause God said so."

And as stated, many pro-life people consider contraceptives to be just as bad as abortion (it literally is pre-abortion; just a form that they approve of more, for some reason).

I've long given up for people to be nuanced about this issue though and just say the f*ck out of other people's lives. America is going to Hell in a handbasket over retarded nonsense like this. I've given up trying and given up attempting to talk sense into you people. You all can let Schwab and Soros f*ck you over and destroy yourselves over pointless squabbles, for all I care.

The very, very VERY few people out there who can see that all of this is just pitting you all against each other, I might actually consider to be an intelligent person worthy of voting rights. But in 2026, when they take those away, you can all continue to fight over them banning gay marriage or banning marijuana again or some other stupid pointless bullsh*t to keep you all distracted while they f*ck you all with a twelve-inch strap-on.

I'll be over here making money in Korea while America burns to the f*cking ground cause you all want to argue over stupid sh*t.

[Dargil]

I'm MAGA but my mind is not closed.

*having nation wide state sponsored contraceptive options for both women and men.
Agree. It can be argued it is in the public's best interest.

*allowing girls of any age obtain contraceptive at public schools without needing parental consent.
I would only agree to parental notification, not requiring consent.
Schools giving them to kids under age 8, no.

*(Federal government) Investing more money into contraceptive research and development. They say no contraceptive is 100% effective but they are getting close.
Agree as investing in medical research in the public's best interest.

*Reforming and streamlining adoption programs. There are lots of infertile couples who are waiting months even years to adopt a child
Agree but the fine print is important.

[globetrotter22]

The thing is the second these people hear we are pro life they completely shut down. They see abortion as a sacrament.

That doesn’t mean I want tons of babies born to unwed mothers though. And what women really wants an abortion.

It’s funny that yesterday I put up this recommended course of a action in a response to girls take who wanted to go all activist ballistic over this. My response was completely removed. No gag notification. No disagree downvote. Just vaporized by GAG moderators. Gone.

[Smoke-n-Growls]

Ohhhh man, you better get your signs ready now, bud.

Roe vs Wade being overturned was just the first step. It also served as precedent for the ruling that supports access to birth control.

You're gonna be marching pretty soon if you're on the side of birth control.

[globetrotter22]

Give me legitimate evidence about “birth control” being blocked by the Supreme Court? From a nonpartisan source please.

[globetrotter22]

Oh just for the record I’ve never marched or been part of an activist group “buddy”. Can you say the same? I got a feeling one of us is more likely to be holding protest signs and it isn’t me.

[gorydetails]

@globetrotter22 she can't and won't. this is just emotional hysteria from liberals.

[globetrotter22]

@gorydetails https://youtu.be/WMDtyap_qCk I wouldn’t be surprised she is one of these women acting neurotic.

The thing is I tried to be as practical as possible with my idea. Trying to think about both sides positions.

Even you and I disagree on a few things but you aren’t being a douche bag about it. We are debating. But people like @Smoke-n-Growls can’t have any other way but her way.

[Smoke-n-Growls]

Lol, dude, are you just swapping accounts back and forth to agree with yourself?

Sad, but do what you need to feel like a big man, I guess.

[globetrotter22]

@Smoke-n-Growls look at the long debate him and myself had about giving teen girls contraceptives without needing parental consent. I would have to have multiple personalities to pull that off.

Anyway my guess is your entire personal life consists of a liberal echo chamber. You probably blocked off people with even a hint of conservative leanings on social media and in real life ever since Donald Trump took office. No matter how polite they were. You immediately jumped on the “it’s us vs them” bandwagon.

You know what just keep it up. Roe vs Wade or not the democrats are in line to get their asses KICKED in the midterm elections and in 2024. Most people are much more concerned about the economy and inflation vs. abortion. So wig out all you want abortion. Also shut off any debate and never concede. Just act deranged and scream into the camera and into the sky. See how far it gets you

[Smoke-n-Growls]

Lmao, dude wut?
I'm friends with everything from Marxists to Socialists to Leftists. I enjoy getting into political debates - it's why I'm talking to you.

I'm not even American, so blocking out people who are huge Trumptards in my country is just sorta normal. They're not American, but they think they are, and there's not really a lot of benefit to listening to people who don't even know what country they live in. They tend to also call me a communist, while I'm not only a participant in capitalist systems, I fuckin' profit off them myself. I hate it, but unfortunately I live in a capitalist country.

Unfortunately, I agree that Democrats as an institution have fucked themselves for the last several decades. I'm not looking forward to seeing the USA continue its fall from grace, but it is really past due for a fall. It's encroaching on the average age of a civilization, and priming itself for a civil war. I just hope it won't turn nuclear or become a target for a world war - not really because I care about America (outside of my few friends there), but because it would put my country and Mexico at risk and we'd have to take in American refugees and I'm worried about the impact that would have on us.

I'm very happy to "scream into the camera (where'd that come from?) and into the sky" about abortion rights. It's very concerning to me that white men in American generally find screaming of any kind to be negative - it's very clear to me your sex lives must be dead as fuck if screaming intimidates you so much.

So far, I've actually been quite satisfied in my political participation. I've written to my representatives in the past, and will continue to. I contribute to my chosen party, but still support my friends and family from other parties.

America isn't really normal for how ride or die your politics are. If you're ever curious in really learning about world politics, you might find it quite helpful.

[MzAsh]

Conservatives hate birth control because it promotes the sluttification of men and women. And it’s hormonal which bothers naturalists or anyone on the side of “gods will”

[globetrotter22]

Do really believe all conservatives “hate” birth control?

[MzAsh]

Of course they “all” don’t.

[globetrotter22]

But do you have statistics on this? Or are you just cherry picking far right evangelicals as a representation of all moderate conservatives?

[MzAsh]

I’m not saying it’s a representation of all of anyone.

[globetrotter22]

Well I am conservative but I am also a realist. I think the best option requires some compromise.

[MzAsh]

That’s good. I agree. I’m actually very for various birth control methods for both women and men. The pill has been working well for me for many years. But I also know where I’ve heard criticism from for using it too.

[Agagagagaga]

You really can’t help yourself, can you? 😂

Conservatives conservatives conservatives. They don’t “all” do it. But yeah. Conservatives. 🙄

[MzAsh]

Didn’t say they all did it. Anyone else wanna split hairs with me today?

[globetrotter22]

Actually I’m sadly seeing a lot of splitting hairs and polarization on both sides of this debate.

Economically speaking this would be cheaper for tax payers in my opinion. Widespread effective contraceptive use would both lower unwanted birth rates AND abortions. It’s the idea that an ounce of prevention is better a pound of cure.

I say all this again with drawing the line on abortion. Once the egg is fertilized it’s a game changer. But again let’s do everything to prevent white from meeting red.

[bamesjond0069]

You are missing the point. NOBODY likes this idea. Not pro choicers and not pro lifers. Just a small handful of people in the middle. Here is why.

Pro lifers, the strongest of the movement are conservative. The conservative position is that of natural rights. The whole concept does not allow for anyone to have a "right" to contraceptives. Also having premarital sex is not something most believe in so while they dont want to pay for abortions, they also dont want to pay for a woman to have a "safe" gangbang with strangers.

Pro choicers dont care about contraceptives. Abortion is required to give women ultimate control of their fertility. And this control is required for women to be able to occupy the same position in society as men. You can find many feminist philosophers arguing that yes its a baby and yes its murder but it is necessary to make women equal to men and thats MORE important than the life of the child. So no, contraceptives will not be highly supported by pro choicers too.

Well what about the masses in the center? Well most still hold one coherent ideological framework. So while they might agree to some compromise they will still buy into 100% one of the principles above. The only people who agree with what you're saying are people with no ideological framework. So isn't that what people should aspire to? No. Because riding the fence might be logical in this particular issue, when you look at all issues and life then it makes no sense and is completely irrational. As someone who holds this view, you will eventually find a situation that proves your view irrational and you will abandon it. This is why few people occupy your view on this issue, theyve all realized out its irrational and abandoned it.

[globetrotter22]

Hence the polarization gets worse and worse.

[bamesjond0069]

But polarization isn't something to avoid. If 50% think 1+1=2 and 50% think 1+1=4 and some group in the middle is willing to compromise and say its 3... so what if it gets more polarized? There is no compromise. A baby is a baby and abortion is murder. Period case close. There is no such thing as a reasonable compromise and to even ponder one is just ignorant. Turn left or turn right but to go straight at the fork in the road you wind up crashed into a tree.

[globetrotter22]

I still think 2 + 2 = 4 not 5. People who are not ready to be parents are going to screw anyways.

I am looking to put a fence on the cliff ledge (birth control) vs having an ambulance at the bottom (ambulance).

I guess I’m in the extreme minority for trying to find a common ground. But I am not the only person who thinks this way. Yes I 100% agree abortion is murder but let’s try to do all we can to prevent white from meeting red.

[bamesjond0069]

However its strange and incoherent to view abortion as murder yet not believe solidly in some form of natural rights. If i dont have the right to my property why would a baby have a right to live?

[globetrotter22]

“ not believe solidly in some form of natural rights”. Explain “natural rights” to me.

[bamesjond0069]

Rights that come from nature or God. Either way. If you're born onto an island its those rights which you would have there on your own for the most part is the most simplest basic explanation. You have a right to your own survival. If you build a hut you have a right to said property. Etc. You cannot have a "right" to someone else designing building and providing you a knife because that would require someone being present first of all and then if they were then forced to make said knife and that deprives them of their most basic rights. Its a timeless principle so if you didn't have a right to condoms in 1000 BC then how could you suddenly now have rights to something in the future? Makes no sense. So people who believe in this concept of rights cannot possibly believe in right to birth control. They will also believe in the right to life as extreme importance since that right is required first to have access to any other rights.

[globetrotter22]

I reread your entire original post. Tbh you rubbed me the wrong way a bit in your first paragraph. When I read “ You are missing the point. NOBODY likes this idea. ” it came off as dismissive and condescending. But you made a few good points about:

“ Pro choicers dont care about contraceptives. Abortion is required to give women ultimate control of their fertility.”

However I think where you and I split apart is “ The whole concept does not allow for anyone to have a "right" to contraceptives”

In general I am very conservative and I hate socialist freeloaders probably just as much as you do.

However many conservatives keep saying “birth control is cheap. Condoms cost only a few bucks and you pick them up at any grocery store or gas station.” But you know as well as I liberals love getting “free” stuff from the government. If we used tax dollars to pay for contraceptives (which are cheap to begin with) then maybe some liberals just might use them for once.

And if they don’t use it then now what? They get tax payer funded trips to blue states to have abortions. Or they carry the child term and are dependent on the government for child support (which is much more expensive.). Their kids grow up in an impoverished at risk community. They often turn to crime and cost taxpayers a lot more money as a whole.

Or they end up getting back alley illegal abortions. You are going to see a lot more of this.

Economically speaking having widespread effective contraceptives is cheaper for the taxpayer than all those ramifications above. You could try preaching abstinence to these people until they are blue in the face. But we both know they aren’t going to listen.

[bamesjond0069]

"it came off as dismissive and condescending." And to be fair my attempt was to come off like that just enough but not too much. I used to have very similar views to you however its an elitist view point. The vast majority of people will never have the time nor be willing to put for the effort and may not have the cognitive ability to even consider your view. Then it also holds that for your view to actually appease the public the majority would need to agree at least enough with it. But see the point above that is not realistic. Therefore it cannot work. Its similar to communism in that way. In theory if everyone believed it and played by the rules it would work but that will never happen therefore it will never work.

"“birth control is cheap. Condoms cost only a few bucks and you pick them up at any grocery store or gas station.” true. And if you won't buy ones for $3 at a gas station what makes you think you will go to where the free ones are and use them? They won't because free ones are readily available from mostly private funds in every city. And why dont people use those? Im not trying to be rude now but you are missing the reasons of why dont people use condoms in the first place. Its not cost nor availability. Nor does this issue even relate to abortion honestly.

"Their kids grow up in an impoverished at risk community. They often turn to crime and cost taxpayers a lot more money as a whole." Not relevant to the average conservative. I agree things need to be paid for that cost money but the goal of government is not to turn a profit or take away freedoms because its cheaper. Its also cheaper to pay criminals to stop committing crimes. I believe California is experimenting with this. Its not moral. So even if it saves a buck its immoral and im highly against the entire concept. Crime should never be rewarded.

[globetrotter22]

Alright man. I just want an approach that works because what we are doing now definitely isn’t panning out well.

[bamesjond0069]

There is no way to square a circle. Starting with that knowledge what could you propose? Both sides lose with any compromise. So neither will accept any. The only thing that works is a country maintaining ideological unity. America has failed.

[NaultD]

Anti abortion people wants everyone to be practicing fundamental Christians. They want American citizens to live under a theocracy.

No self governments or rule of law. The Bible is all the government and rule of law you need. The Supreme Court are high prists telling you whats what on the holiest of holy scripture.

[gorydetails]

I'm with you for the most part. I disagree with subverting parental consent. Birth control is not without possible side effects. How would you like it if your daughter got a blood clot after taking a pill given to her without your knowledge?

I disagree that children with deformities and/or Downs syndrome are worthy of being destroyed just because they aren't "perfect".

[globetrotter22]

The reason I said kids should be able to do this without parental consent is because some of them might make stupid decisions anyway. If they at least get effective contraception it might prevent teenage pregnancies. This is especially problematic for kids growing up in impoverished communities.

As for abortion a fetus with Down syndrome/deformities I knew that would be controversial.

But let’s say the mother already doesn’t want the baby and she finds out this is going to be an issue. I feel like that’s a gray area. After all perfectly healthy babies are being aborted all the time.

[gorydetails]

I don't want the state subverting my rights as a parent. You shouldn't either.

[globetrotter22]

I don’t either. I am disgusted and furious at the “trans education” that’s reportedly going on in public schools.

But everything has been “my way or no way” in these ridiculous debates. This is only getting worse.

There has to be a common sense middle ground agreement. Yes parents should be notified that there kids are getting “gay/trans” education. They also should be notified if a their daughter is seeking an abortion. But should be notified if their daughter is getting prescribed birth control pills?

You might say yes. But that’s nowhere near the same extent as her going through “transitioning” or getting an abortion. Not even close.

[gorydetails]

Is your kid's teacher a doctor? Should the gym teacher get to put in their IUD?

[globetrotter22]

The school nurse can give the kid a prescription.

Or we can do away with all of that and just hope the girl remains abstinent or the boys she sleeps with are wearing condoms. But that let’s be real that teen kids do fool around and it’s especially a problem with inner city communities. So now what? The girl has to drop out of school to raise the baby? The kids grows up in at risk environment (repeating the cycle). That’s the argument pro choicers make for abortions. I say take away the abortion and just give the teen girls effective contraceptives. It’s not perfect but better than the alternative.

[gorydetails]

And is the nurse liable if the kid gets a blood clot? You can get condoms OTC. Go to every store and gas station in America. It's a myth that birth control isn't readily available.

[globetrotter22]

Well if it was so easy then why are still seeing teen girls get knocked up and having abortions? Neither one of us like seeing that. There has to be a better alternative that they will actually adhere to.

[gorydetails]

OR, maybe they’re choosing not to use them.

[globetrotter22]

Which is stupid. Grown ass adults are using them either. But this is why we need 1) sex Ed 2) the fear of reality that abortion isn’t a safety net 3) free (yes 5 bucks is a lot of money for some people to spend) birth control. 4) effective birth control. That’s why I am open to allowing teen girls get the pill or plan B. Condoms do break.

[gorydetails]

Bro, if you can’t afford a $1 condom, you should keep it in your pants. What gets lost in these conversations is you don’t HAVE to have sex. You don’t HAVE to have PIV sex.

[globetrotter22]

People like you and me get that. But a lot of people don’t. So what’s the result? Teenage pregnancies, back alley abortions, kids growing up without fathers, etc. Preaching common sense to those people isn’t working. That’s why we need a different strategy.

[gorydetails]

But you could throw every birth control at them and at the end of the day it’s their responsibility to use it.

[globetrotter22]

@gorydetails true. But make it as easy as brushing your teeth.

That won’t be the end all be all. Unwanted pregnancies will still happen (recklessness, condoms breaking etc). But I will reduce unwanted pregnancies. That’s what matters.

One thing that disgusts me about liberals is they just want to fuck like rabbits and not worry about the consequences because abortion is a non issue for them morally. Well now they have to think twice before making bad decisions (in some states). But even with abortion restrictions unwanted pregnancies will continue to happen. Then either an illegal abortion will take place (which is dangerous) or the kid will grow up in a at risk and/or unloving broken household.

The question is how can we let people still do it and not risk harming children? My answer is a very hard push for widespread birth control. This means conservatives have to make some compromises.

[gorydetails]

Bro, birth control is on the next isle from toothpaste. That’s my point.

[globetrotter22]

Cheap or not liberals love free stuff from the government. Give it to them for free and they might use it.

[OddBeMe]

Because they dont like contraceptives either. Theyre religious.