History, like many subjects, requires recontextualization and nuance.
Why do the wokes want to rewrite history and debunk the statues?
History, like many subjects, requires recontextualization and nuance.
It has been well said "that he who controls the past, controls the future." Thus not for nothing did those in revolutionary Russia and China re-write the history books. Change the past and you change society's image of itself and thus ultimately man's view of himself as an individual being.
The sense of identity that gives man his sense of a link to his fellows comes from a shared sense of history. That "we are a single people with a same general experience and we draw from that similar lessons." That is why the totalitarians tear down the statues and re-write the history books.
This is not simply an effort to show disrespect for the old regime, it is an effort to re-shape man in a chosen image. To atomize society so that the citizen feels no connection, sentimental or logical, to his fellows and thus will pledge obedience to a new authority that will provide order and identity.
Thus did figures like Hitler, Mussolini and Lenin come to power in the wake of a period of tumult in their nations, when the old order was ripped asunder and the anchors on which man connects himself to his fellow citizens evaporate. In that moment, the totalitarian steps in to offer a new identity with himself at its apex.
In a similar vein, Jospeh de Maistre wrote:
"The first and perhaps the only source of all the evils we experience is contempt for antiquity, or, what amounts to the same thing, contempt for experience: while there is no is nothing better than what is proven. The laziness and arrogant ignorance of this century cope much better with theories that cost nothing and flatter pride, than lessons in moderation and obedience that must be painfully asked of history. In all sciences, but especially in politics, the many and obscure events of which are so difficult to grasp as a whole, theory almost always is contradicted by experience.
May Eternal Wisdom send down its rays on men destined to guide the fate of others! May also the peoples of West close their ears to the voice of the sophists, and, turning their eyes away from all theoretical illusions, fix them only on those venerable laws which are rarely written, of which it is not possible to assign neither the epochs nor the authors, and which the peoples did not make, but which made the peoples."
Frankly, it trivializes what is happening to say that the "wokes" are the ones who want to re-write history. To be sure, they do, but as likely as not they are themselves unaware that they are the intellectual heirs of what Jean Francois Revel called "the totalitarian temptation." To borrow from an even more famous quote: "If ye eat of the fruit of the tree, ye shall be as gods."
The totalitarian temptation is more to be found in the implications of the writings of Rousseau than anywhere else. He postulated that man was basically a good and moral being but that he was corrupted by society, which brought with it inequalities of wealth and power that divided man from his fellows. Those on what is called the "Left" in the West are the heirs of that tradition and "wokeism" then is merely a modern manifestation of that phenomenon.
The response to this is to be found in Edmund Burke, who wrote, "It is thus with all those who, attending only to the shell and husk of history, think they are waging war with intolerance, pride and cruelty, whilst, under the color of abhorring the ill principles of antiquated parties, they are authorizing and feeding the same odious vices in different factions, and perhaps in worse."
I have nothing to say about what you have written. đ
I wanted to share with you a letter from Voltaire that he wrote to Rousseau, the two men hated each other.
"I have received, Sir, your new book against the human race; I thank you for it; you will please the men to whom you tell their truths, and you will not correct them. You paint with very true colors the horrors of human society, whose ignorance and weakness promise themselves so much sweetness. One has never employed so much spirit to want to make us Beasts. It desire to walk on all fours when one reads your work. However, as it is more than sixty years since I lost the habit, I feel unfortunately that it is impossible for me to resume it. And I leave this natural pace to those who are more worthy of it, than you and I. Nor can I embark to go and find the savages of Canada, firstly because the illnesses to which I am condemned make a European doctor necessary, secondly because war is being waged in that country, and the examples of our nations have made the savages almost as bad as ourselves. I confine myself to being a peaceful savage in the solitude I have chosen near your homeland where you should be. "
Ouch!! Does not feel too strongly, does he?
Here is the key lines: "One has never employed so much spirit to want to make us Beasts. It desire to walk on all fours when one reads your work."
Rousseau argued that man in the state of nature was basically good and was corrupted by the inequalities of wealth and power inherent in society. This produced a paradox.
First, it gave man the benefit of the doubt where it has not been earned. Western civilization - especially in this populist interregnum - is inclined to view man as basically good and assume that his civilized instincts are spontaneous. The beast is thereby unleashed.
On the flip side, because government and society are the cause of man's corrupt nature, it is necessary to reorganize society. This is why the - I'll use the term here for convenience - the Left argues for social engineering. Perfect society and you thereby allow man's spontaneous goodness to flower.
Suffice to say, that has inspired much mayhem. From the social experiments of Marxism and Fascism to the "soft on crime" mentality that is afflicting so many American cities at the moment.
Anyhow, thanks for passing that along and thanks for the "thumbs up."
No problem, you know I'm a big fan of your answers.
And I largely agree with what you wrote.
I didn't know if you would be interested in reading this letter, but I thought you might find it quite funny and at the same time full of accuracy.
Oh I enjoyed your sharing of the Joseph de Maistre quote. I didn't think you would ever use it in one of your answers haha.
Anyway I hope you and your family are doing well đ
I hope the other people who posted in this thread are using their talent and expertise elsewhere besides GAG. I almost feel like this site doesnât deserve you.
@Sixgunsound You are exceptionally kind. Thanks so much. For what it is worth, I have worked in politics since the late 1980s. This site - which I quite like - is a hobby and gives me a chance to delve into questions more deeply than you can in the day-to-day rush of affairs. To be sure, you always put such background to use, but you don't often get the chance to explain it and the theoretical underpinnings behind what you do.
Again, thanks so much for your compliment.
Are there any stories of liberals rewriting history.. cuz I got the other side...
www.washingtonpost.com/.../
@OddBeMe Well, my historical examples were more along the lines of the totalitarian regimes such as the USSR and so forth. Further, there is also the 1619 Project and the like. See also this piece: www.rightjournalism.com/.../
Also this: www.dailywire.com/.../how-the-left-is-rewriting-american-history-to-push-their-radical-agenda
Anyhow, at this juncture, the "left" has been far more active, with wokeism and all the rest in re-writing history and in the various efforts to tear down statues. See also: www.nbcnews.com/.../portland-protesters-tear-down-statues-abraham-lincoln-theodore-roosevelt-n1242913
@OddBeMe History is what it is, for good or ill. If we believe that by erasing the past we will improve the future we are apt not to have things end well.
The statues of Lincoln are a reminder of his greatness. The statues of Lee point to both the cause for which he fought - and how it is in disrepute - while not losing sight of the fact that our enemies often display skills and abilities that make them worthy of being remembered.
If we disregard the talents and skills that our enemies used against us, we are apt in due course to forget them and with them the lessons they teach. As someone once said, âOur enemies are innovative and resourceful..." If we lose sight of that and an appreciation for their skills and even their character, we are apt to find ourselves at their mercy.
@OddBeMe Well, the point is, for whatever reasons the statues were erected, we can benefit and learn from them. Our motives and perspective will differ, but to simply erase history as if it never happened is apt to have far worse consequences then to have a reminder of the good and the bad in that history.
For that matter, though, do keep in mind that it is not just statues of Robert E. Lee and the like that are being toppled. Ditto are statues of Jefferson and Lincoln and Madison, among others, being destroyed.
The point here is that it is not just about making amends for the evils of the past. It is rather an effort to erase the past so that man can be remade in his allegedly perfect image. This is playing with fire, to say no more.
Imperfect beings are apt not to be made perfect - whatever the implications of Rousseau's thinking to the contrary. If man is absolved of his past, he is then absolutely free and thus absolutely unleashed to give vent to his worst instincts.
Man absolutely free - including free of his past - is a tyrant. Better then to have reminders of the great and the evil to remind us of the stark contrasts that are inherent in the human condition.
Democrats want to erase statues of Democrat Confederates who owned slaves and bore arms against the United States in defense of their desire to continue owning those slaves, as well as those who later founded the KKK after they lost the war. Visible easily understood reminders of the Democrat history with slavery and racism run counter to their narrative and have to be purged from the public consciousness before too many people realize that they are âaccusing their enemies of that which they themselves are doingâ in accordance with the writings of Alinsky.
And I have no problem with history as long as its not for certain reasons. Like showing blacks who's boss. Robert E Lee can be erected in a military school for his tactical brilliance, a Civil War Museum, but a not a freaking CITY HALL that's the symbol of a towns authority.
Same for all other traitorous statues.
@OddBeMe Well, then protest it. However, again, what you are facing at this point is not a principled opposition to racism and slavery, but rather an attempt to erase history altogether. Hence also, as I believe one of the links I passed on illustrated, the attempt to take down statues of Lincoln and Jefferson and so on.
(Also, perhaps going to city hall and objecting and circulating a petition to the community are better approaches than mob rule and violence. Another factor to be considered. It is perhaps, at best, unwise to allow the righteousness of one's feelings to be the sole guide to one's actions.)
@Sixgunsound Sorry, I don't follow what you are attempting to say. It is true that as late as the mid-20th century the Democratic party in the south was the part of segregation. Indeed, the GOP carried the black vote, such as it was, as it was the party of Lincoln - the party that freed the slave.
The voting patterns began to shift under FDR, whose New Deal included programs targeted, at least indirectly, at African-Americans. (Also, First Lady Elanor Roosevelt was a staunch advocate of racial equality.) This was consolidated by President Lyndon Johnson's Great Society programs, though through most of the 1960s this badly split the Democratic party. (See also the Dixiecrats.)
CONT.
Indeed, the Civil Rights Act would not have passed had it not been for the Republican vote in Congress. The irony is that the GOP's emphasis on a weaker Federal role - and support for states - came to be seen by the African-American community as pro-segregation and thus the African-American vote became solidly Democratic.
There are now indications that this is starting to change. High crime in particular is driving the African-American - and especially the Hispanic - vote back to the GOP. This will undoubtedly take time, but the shifts are there.
In any case, it is true that the Dixiecrats supported segregation and some of the statues in question were raised by them. Still, while there are undoubtedly mixed motives involved, the current wokeism is only tangentially about that question. It is more, to put it somewhat poetically, about erasing history so that man can be remade in man's image. Hence why Lincoln is coming down with Robert E. Lee.
My purpose was much smaller than your grand societal movement. My comments were confined to attempts by a political party to score points by deleting inconvenient truths.
@Sixgunsound Well, there is some truth in what you say, but it oversimplifies things a bit. Keep in mind that our political parties are not ideological parties as you tend to see in Europe. Rather they are lose knit coalitions of regional, religious, ethnic, racial, income and other groups that have come together in part by common interests and in part by historical accident.
In the case of the GOP, it is a coalition made up of classical liberals - which Americans call conservatives - libertarians, small and medium sized business, religious and social traditionalists, lower middle and upper middle income earners, farmers, rural and exurban populations, and historically older voters. It tends to dominate the South, the Great Plains, the Rocky Mountain West and the state of Alaska - though this is starting to change somewhat as populism becomes a force in both parties. (There is less difference between Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden than meets the eye.)
On the Democratic side you get, ethnic and religious minorities, middle and high income wage earners, big business and entertainment industries, urban and inner suburban votes, radical liberals - which Americans call liberals. (Note, the term "radical" here does not mean as Americans use it, i. e. "extremist," but rather as the ancient Greeks used the term, meaning "to the root of.") The regions where it is dominant are northeast, the mid-Atlantic, the Pacific coast and the state of Hawaii. (Though again, this is starting to change and is one of the reasons that Mrs. Clinton was defeated in 2016.)
CONT.
This is how you get a Republican Party that runs from Ted Cruz at one end to Susan Collins at the other, with the libertarian Rand Paul thrown into the mix. This is how you get a Democratic Party that runs from Joe Manchin at one end to Elizabeth Warren at the other. Quite simply, party identification is not about ideological identity.
So while there is a grain of truth in what you say. It is actually more nuanced and complicated than that.
People protesting Jefferson or Lincoln statues dont trouble me. Maybe my idea of countryâs history is stronger than a freakin statue.
But to me its all about the reason and context. Confederates at City Hall in southern states tells blacks to stay in their place. Washingtonâs statue or Lincolnâs memoirial in DC makes since- as they aren't traitors.
But if a city wants Jeffersonâs statue out of a park or city hall fine. I dont see the issue. But its funny when YOU never complain about Texasâ school councils cutting Jefferson out of textbooks.
@OddBeMe Well, there is then an inconsistency in your argument. Lee statues send you to the barricades, but those figures who represent, to borrow a line, "the better angels of our nature" can be toppled and you snore.
Not sure that is sound psychology let alone sound sociology or politics. Radical liberalism as a philosophy, tends to assume human benevolence and the belief - this taken right out of Rousseau - that man is pure unless corrupted by his institutions. The counterargument to that coming from Disraeli - "A nation's liberties are embodied in its' institutions. The march of intellect is not enough."
(By the way, please note here that the term "radical" is NOT being employed in its' contemporary usage, i. e. extremist. Rather here the term is being used as the ancient Greeks used it - meaning "to the root of." No offense was intended to you, though I would argue that you subscribe to a political philosophy that is perhaps to benign in its grasp of human nature.)
Bottom line, there is an inconsistency in your thinking that you may wish to ponder in your own mind. As to the Texas statues, I did not mention them here because this was a discussion of the "wokes." Had @Julie4 mentioned statue toppling as a general rule, I would have gone into that.
In any case, as you will note, I did address it in our subsequent discussion when you raised it. See also my last reply in particular.
Indeed in my question I talk about the woke movement and the relationship they have with history and their way of rewriting it.
I only mentioned the unbolting of the statues as an example, because it is a recent event that I thought of.
Do you realize Night, they almost unbolted Napoleon, my god đ¤Ł
As an example the French Revolutionaries wanted to destroy everything that rallied to the monarchy is they even went to desecrate the tombs of the kings of France and threw their bones in false commune, and it ends with terror. You can summarize it all with the sentence of Saint Just, one of the most important figures of the revolution: "History is not our code".
As Night, said before, wanting to change history, the man of his roots, nothing good is on the horizon.
It is a mistake not to reconstruct historical events in their contexts. The historical bias of the different militant movements could be summarized as follows, there are the evil Westerners who colonized and enslaved Africans and other peoples by pure "Racism", therefore today for our friends wokes we should make act of perpetual repentance.
The problem is that their vision of history is truncated. Because all civilizations have practiced slavery, conquest and massacres, whether it is Europe, Africa, Asia etc.. For the small Anecdote the Mediterranean pirates who work for powerful Muslim kingdoms, reduced in slavery the European populations. consequently to want to reduce all the misfortunes of the world to the only bad white Westerners, and to make of the other civilizations simple victims of this Western predation is dishonest. although the West is not perfect far from there.
As you say- nuance. It's something they're allergic to. Why? Well, there are many people and powers pushing for blind acceptance of socio-political doctrines, and they've been VERY effective at it, but I suspect there's more going behind the scenes than I'm aware of, particularly in light of how it's spread far beyond the US (whose cultural stew is the one I'm most familiar with).
In 1983, 90% of all American media outlets were owned by a mere fifty companies. Some people complained that that kind of consolidation made the whole system vulnerable to manipulation by powerful entities, but they were ignored. Today, that same 90% is owned by FIVE- and two of them of attempting to merge. With that kind of power over information, you can change *the flow of history*. Yes, the internet has enabled almost anyone to become a media source- but not only do most platforms have the ability to strictly control what gets posted there (forcing the real crackpots onto overcrowded platforms that lose perceived legitimacy by their mere presence), but even those that don't aren't a threat, because the sheer volume of voices ensures only the most specialized will be heard by a decent number of people, and those tend to self-segregate in an era when we no longer have to "endure" objectionable opinions. The net result is pretty predictable.
Here in the US, the Democratic party was (historically) the party of the working class, taking steps to not only improve working conditions, but curtail the power of rising ultra-powerful corporations. My great-grandfather, himself a poor immigrant who made good, supposedly once threatened to beat his children, and even grandchildren, senseless if he discovered they'd voted for a Republican. But while party allegiances and ideals shift, it's a slow process (outside of Italy, at least), and over time, the Democratic party went from representing the interests of the poor and lowly to representing the interests of the expanding educated class. The biggest push for this probably came with the huge number of former soldiers who went to college, paying for it with funds from the GI bill, and then insisting that their children (the Baby Boom generation) do the same. Since they made more money, they became bigger donors, and the party followed the rising tide. Unfortunately, the ballooning number of graduates made the value of a degree plummet, and an increasing number of dubious programs were started by various colleges (some of which were pretty dubious themselves), that have little to no real-world value. And so their political interests began to drift further and further from day-to-day reality, urged on by hucksters trying to make a quick buck.
This is why they were so blindsided by Donald Trump: they figured his candidacy was more or less a joke, and that his vocal support base being largely working-class people meant they were all bigots, since the Republican party (the Democratic leadership figured) was that of bigotry, and WE are the party of the working class. His success showed otherwise- whatever you may think of him as a politician, he had a HUGE voter turnout among the politically disenfranchised- and the hatred hasn't passed.
Obviously, the movement of ignoring reality didn't start with him (we had people calling for the destruction of Confederate statues twenty years ago), and he's hardly the most grounded political figure our country's seen in recent years, but 2016 was when they went outright insane. Advocacy began for rolling back anti-discrimination laws to hire based on race and sex began in earnest, and results following from high and Supreme court cases lead to pushing for laws that not only didn't make sense, but were clearly based in ideology, rather than fact- even POLITICAL fact.
You'd think those with a decent knowledge of history would realize that the groups that go around tearing down statues and destroying pieces of the past aren't those who become "good guys"- but then, you don't have much knowledge of history when you insist on tearing it down.
Fact is the sensitive people aren't the "woke people"
History was rewritten hundreds of years ago to pretend like these heroes, and america were perfect.
Most of them weren't and now that Americans want real history taught and not this sissified weak version to make sensitive Americans feel warm and comfy that their heroes weren't perfect.
And everyone wants to cry stop trying to teach things that show real American history good and bad😭
So who really is the real snow flakes?
The ones who can handle the whole truth about America even the parts that look bad, or the one's that can't?
âThose that hold the pen write history.â
Sometimes it isnât properly documented to begin with.
Opinion
12Opinion
We had a run-in with that here in the states. It didnât end in an ideal way. In order for everybody to be one big happy globalist family, none of us can have any individual cultural heritage. And the only way to make that happen is to erase history.
This just made a whole lot of their (woke people) bullshit make a whole lot of fucking sense to me. Thank you good sir and keep up the good work.
They are the globo homo types the more I think about it... oh dayum.
@D_Bone_Steak happy to help out any way I can to expose globalist agenda and leftist hypocrisy.
They haven't grown up enough to understand that history is written by the winners and what actually happened is likely to be far, far more nuanced and complex than they have ever read, been taught about etc etc.
They equate their immature values in one generation with what should have been the case in every generation going back 500 years. The fact they haven't worked out that that is totally unrealistic and silly says quite how immature they are.
We have a generation of intolerant, uneducated, self-righteous, incorrigible young people who think that everything is black and white.
One day, they will learn the hard way about shades of grey.
The woke are part of a cult, a mass cult, and they don't even know it. EXACTLY like dealing with people with extreme religious ideology, they think they're right about everything and try to confirm their own bias constantly.
The bulk of them don't have a day job or any hobbies... don't even know what type of music they really like. I bet they're fun at parties. lolz.
Look up Dr. Robert Maloneâs talks on mass formation psychosis. Youâll find them quite informative.
Centuries from now, the good German in the 1930s will be studied alongside the good leftist in the 2020s.
Because theyâre revolutionaries who want to remake the world in their own image. History is full of people like this. Regardless of their ideology, history is written by the victor and in order to be the victor you have to destroy.
What happened in the past either positive or negative should be a learning experience moving forward but with the far left no matter what you do to improve or improvise they will always find something else negative to troll and bitch about.
Wokes tend to be savages and/or support savages, also leftists support rapeugees.
Because the left wants to destroy everything and replace it with something else. Left wing is based on revolution.
In USA they already say that math is rasist, I don't know how.
Are we rewriting books and documentaries? Or just pushing ugly racist statues off of public property?
For example, George Washington owned slaves, but it would be a mistake to judge Washington's work only through this prism.
Of course today it seems to us as something inhuman and horrible. But if you put George Washington in the world of his time, you will quickly realize that in the different societies of the time, whether in Europe, Asia, or even Africa, slavery was unfortunately a very natural thing.
Because theyâre heavily ignorant and brainwashed fools that were very spoiled and sheltered growing up.
Woke people need to do that to make themself look good, and they can't stand beibg wrong or have people disagreeing with them.
They are cringe attention seekers.
Because theyre sensitive pussies