Is the USG’s decision to supply Ukraine with cluster munitions after declaring that it would be a war crime if other countries use them hypocritical?

[RealMarek]

Yes, it is hypocritical

Ukraine is losing the war and the USG is the arbiter of morality, so it’s okay

No, we were just joking about cluster munitions being a war crime

Other

[Anonymous]

At this point, we deserve to be nuked by Russia.

Putin warned us countless times to not interfere and we have been doing nothing but that since they invaded Ukraine. So much so that we are giving Ukraine illegal weapons and at a certain point, we will have no money left to even declare world war 3 should it come down to it.

The US is acting like a kid who has never been spanked before and will continue to act like this until our "spanking" comes.

Russia has over 6000 nukes. They can nuke every major city, every state capital, every international US military base and will still have thousands remaining. You think they are going to care if they let a fraction of that 6000+ nukes loose?

Hundreds of millions of people are going to die all just because the boomers in our government are dying and they don't trust the next generation to uphold their agenda so they would rather see their leave go out with a bang and stick their noses where they don't belong.

[Lliam]

The U. S. has always acted self righteous but been hypocritical. It is also the biggest war criminal. Nukes, chemical weapons, land mines, cluster bombs, proxy terrorists, brutal dictators. How many millions of innocent civilians has it murdered, mutilated and displaced in the last 70 years alone, but always in the name of democracy, justice and human rights?

It's always interesting to watch how it deliberately threatens and provokes other countries militarily. But when they develop defenses, the U. S. acts like it is proof that they are belligerent and aggressive.

The U. S. illegally occupies any country it wants to. But if any other country does the same thing, they get accused of imperialistic ambitions.

[RealMarek]

It’s interesting to note that US foreign policy is really just a continuation of British imperial foreign policy, which was premised upon the idea that whoever controls the western Eurasian steppe would control the “world island” of Eurasia and become an existential threat to the British (and American) empires. This is debatable, but the belief drove conflicts from the Crimean War, Wall Street and UK backing of the Bolsheviks (which led to the Cold War), WW1 (the consequences of which set up WW2), and the elite’s current Ukraine project.

As for the hypocrisy, it was very effective due to good will the Americans had after defeating Germany in WW2 as well as its full-spectrum dominance of popular culture. As WW2 recedes from living memory and the leadership of the collective West becomes less cool and more Brezhnevite by the day, more people are noticing the brazen hypocrisy and lies of USG messaging.

[Lliam]

100% true that US foreign policy is really just a continuation of British imperial foreign policy. But it includes dominance of resources (such as oil and minerals); the movement of goods (as in the Persian Gulf, Suez and Panama Canals); dominance of trade and economic competition (which is why British aristocrats engineered the destruction of Germany in WWI); and of course geopolitical control, as in Eurasia, the Americas, the Pacific islands. Of course Africa has been so undermined over the centuries that it's no competition.

Anyway, U. S. desire to control the world is all benevolent, right? Peace, love, democracy, human rights and justice for all.

I do think that more people are waking up. They really started waking up during the Viet Nam war because there was still some independence in journalism. The government and its corporate collaborators fixed that problem over the following years. Now, people who trust government and msm and rely upon them for all their information are controllable automatons. But thanks to independent journalists, researchers, experts, and all those who are courageous enough to speak up despite censorship, threats and coercion, information is available in more abundance than ever to those who seek it. More and more people are resisting.

[RealMarek]

I agree. Narrative built on lies will not last forever regardless of how much power is behind it.

[Lliam]

That's why "they" are so desperate to control the narrative by silencing others.

It worked almost 100% with the Zionist narrative.

[Anonymous]

US involvement in Ukraine is a whole exercise in hypocrisy.

[MonicaWills]

This question involves politics and international relations, and there is no clear answer. However, it can be argued that the U. S. government’s decision to provide cluster munitions to Ukraine is likely to generate some controversy and criticism.

On the one hand, the U. S. government may argue that their decision was motivated by supporting Ukraine's self-defense and defense needs. Ukraine has been involved in a territorial dispute with Russia, which has used cluster munitions in the past few years. Therefore, the United States may believe that providing cluster munitions to Ukraine is to help it protect itself from Russian aggression.

On the other hand, some may view this as hypocritical behavior. The U. S. government has criticized other countries' use of cluster munitions in the past, viewing them as violations of international humanitarian law. Providing cluster munitions to Ukraine could therefore be seen as a double standard, especially in the absence of an explicit international treaty banning cluster munitions.

Overall, this issue involves different perspectives and interests, so whether it is hypocritical depends on one's position and values.

[Soteris]

No idea what you are even talking about. USA, Russia and Ukraine has no laws against cluster munitions and both Russia and Ukraine has been using them regularly since the start of the war. If anything, giving Ukraine cluster munitions is just an easy way to add a few million extra artillery rounds without having to produce new ones.

Am I personally against cluster munitions? Yes. Do I think it will make a difference in this war? Militarily, yes but in regards to the problem with cleaning up afterwards? They would need to clear those areas anyways from unexploded ordinance and mines. Adding more on the pile literally does not change anything.

Ultimately, is it hypocritical? No. None of the countries involved has laws against cluster munitions.

[RealMarek]

I am talking about statements (not formal agreements) made by the White House during the past couple years condemning use of cluster munitions as a war crime even though the US is not a signatory to the treaty banning their use and deploys them in the current conflict.

[Soteris]

can't remember the white house ever being particularly concerned about cluster munitions. Perhaps individual politicians have made statements but I doubt the white house or government as a whole.

Also USA dont really use cluster munitions. Not because of moral reasons but because its not very useful in the conflicts they face. For example, if they are trying to destroy a group of insurgency fighters holding up inside a city then what they need is precision strikes and not something that peppers a whole block with hand grenades.

As such, USA has transitioned away from artillery towards guided munitions usually carried by aircraft, long range support from ships. Actual artillery and rocket artillery only has a small role to play because they are usually not as accurate and much slower to respond, especially stuff like the M777 which you have to faff around setting up before firing.

Cluster munition is simply inefficient when you can solve your problems by throwing money at it through the medium of expensive guided munitions.

[RealMarek]

You are correct on the details of cluster munitions and their effectiveness, although they’re effective enough against light infantry that the US used them in Iraq and Afghanistan, so it has been done plenty of times. The reason they’re using them in Ukraine is because the West is nearly out of unitary 155 mm rounds.

What I’m pointing out here is the hypocrisy of the administration’s statements. Watch enough of their press conferences and you’ll see they were beating the drum about how using cluster munitions is a war crime. It’s one thing to be disingenuous, but it is stupid to make moral assertions that one is apt to violate.

[Soteris]

The west is not running out of 155 but whatever. Give me an example of the administration making statements against cluster munitions.

[RealMarek]

Psaki said the administration’s position is that cluster munitions are a warcrime. This is well documented. Obviously it was BS.

Furthermore both Sullivan and Biden have confirmed the US is so low on 155 mm shells that we cannot provide any to Ukraine. Europe stockpiles are even more depleted. There is evidence of this in the field: video of the Ukrainians using cluster munitions and de-mining munitions against targets for which unitary shells would be way more effective. The only reason they would do this is if their supply of unitary shells is extremely low.

[Soteris]

Pretty sure I have seen that quote and that is not at all what she said. Psaki said "We have seen the reports. If that were true, it would potentially be a war crime." in response to using cluster munitions on civilians which is a warcrime because it is an attack targeting civilians and has nothing to do with if its cluster munitions or not.

Also, you need to understand that when USA says its "low" on something military that simply means that they have reached the point where they can ONLY fight two wars against their biggest enemies at the same time with the stocks they still have. USA does not compromise their actual stocks to send to Ukraine, they only give what they have extra.

Furthermore, its good to point out that USA never actually had much 155 in the first place. They dont really use artillery in the grand scheme of things so their stocks of artillery rounds are actually not that significant. Pretty sure that Ukraine itself will produce more artillery shells than USA does soon if not already. The major supply of artillery rounds to Ukraine will come from Europe and Asia both because their stockpiles and their production dwarfs USA's.

As for Ukraine using cluster munitions in in-optimal situations? Possible. Such things happens all the time in war and often has nothing to do with supply but rather what was at hand during the time. I also struggle to think of when a normal round is better than a cluster bomb. I guess against heavily armored tanks and large concrete bunkers? Against BMP's, trenches, most buildings and pretty much everything else its better to use cluster munitions. Especially if they use their older non-NATO artillery since their accuracy is shit so at least with cluster munitions you can ensure you hit something.

[Sargentcaptain]

Ah, you're right. Cause when you're in a fist fight and your opponent brings out a knife it's better to bullshit about having the moral high ground instead of saving your ass in a fight that's actually fair.

[RealMarek]

That’s not the applicable analogy, first because cluster bomblets are not effective against armor and will not make the fight fair for Ukraine, and second because the reason cluster bombs are banned is the harm it does to civilians after the fact. The whole concept lf war crimes should be done away with if expedience or effectiveness justifies using any weapon or tactic.

[Sargentcaptain]

Cluster bombs are not banned. The US hasn't banned them, Ukraine hasn't banned them and the invader that Ukraine will use cluster bombs against is actively using cluster bombs against them. Weapon's effectiveness is entirely meaningless here, so long as Ukraine thinks they can be useful, they'll use them, whatever armchair war analysts think from their safe home a continent and an ocean away. And again, using cluster bombs is not a war crime in any of the nations involved, supplier nations, defender nations or invaders nations. Also, when you homeland is under attack, you better fucking believe people are gonna any means necessary to defend themselves.

[Avicenna]

It's the Democrats, what else do you expect? They just want to kill as many white people as they can.

[RealMarek]

My comments here demonstrate that I have nothing positive to say about the DNC. However, to be fair, this war and escalation of the conflict are strongly supported by most Republican politicians and much of the GOP base.

[Avicenna]

That doesn't mean that they have the same motivation. This administration has proven itself to be racist through its policies, so it does not get the benefit of the doubt.

[RealMarek]

That’s true, and the regimes in both NATO and Ukraine are delighting in seeing white, mostly Christian men slaughtering each other.

[Avicenna]

Exactly

[jshm2]

Since when has the USA been averse to war crimes when it lets the occupying state of Israel, Myanmar and China commit them on a daily basis?

[msc545]

Of course its hypocritical, just like many other things the US does and has done, and will do.

[Fuentes]

Everything Biden does is hypocritical

[Anonymous]

Biden has no clue what he is doing.