Do you agree with this political opinion in the image?

[Anonymous]

Yes

No

[Kaneki05]

Do democrats disagree with the wall though or do they disagree with how the system is and treats people?
My impression has been it's more how they treat people. Like how ICE can hurt citizens who are otherwise a good citizen.

Like how I very much disagreed with trumps plan to send parents back to mexico while leaving their kids here that makes no sense and hurt families, it also failed it did not stop the rate of people coming anyway to the point trump had to admit defeat and stop such plan.
In which all the parents came back and it was unlimitedly a pointless thing that cause kids Trauma of their parents been taken away.

That's got nothing to do with disagreeing with needing a wall and attempts to stop smuggling.

[strateguy632]

despite you are not wrong about that, still when trump wanted a wall remember the response? oppposed wall.

[Lliam]

"Visas? We ain't got no visas. We don't need no stinking visas!"

Department of Homeland Security under Biden, "You're quite right. Here's some money. And we've booked you free rooms at the Marriott. Have a nice day."

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) plays a central role in administering the immigration system of the United States. Administration of immigration benefits is the responsibility of U. S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS).

[wolfcat87]

I'm none of those and can still see that the border wall is a dumb waste of money. It doesn't actually stop any immigrants, smugglers, criminals, etc from getting in. It does cost taxpayer dollars and disrupt the ecosystem without good reason. We have thousands of miles of untended shoreline, a barely supervised Canadian border, and planes they can just fly in on and not leave after. People wanting a wall just don't know the facts and have never really spoken to illegal immigrants...

[strateguy632]

it would mean less. even if can't stop ALL like a law of abortion would still have some but PUNISHING clinic staff would save human lives.

[wolfcat87]

@strateguy632 Not comparable at all. All the U. S. does when they catch an illegal immigrant is send them right back over the border. Once they get there, they just come right back until they succeed. I knew an illegal immigrant who jumped the border no less than 5 times with a group before they succeeded. They were only caught so many times because their group included a fat man and a very pregnant woman. The amount of money wasted on sending them back rather than keeping them here and collecting taxes is incredible dumb and pointless. It doesn't actually stop anyone.

[Joshydavid25]

They would have to be citizens to collect taxes.. I don't think the solution is to just keep whoever comes here, here.. Just secure the border and make sure they know what the deal is.. You can't stop everyone, but you can stop more people than if there was no security..

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 Actually, non citizens working in the U. S. pay taxes all the time. The guy mentioned before pays taxes while working for a cabinet installation and renovation company, and he doesn't have citizenship. People with green cards and various work visas also pay taxes.

It is physically impossible to secure our borders or keep illegal immigrants out. A better use of resources would be tracking people committing crimes and collecting taxes from those not. We are wasting money waging war against essentially an ocean rather than focusing on how to benefit from the resources that ocean brings.

This whole idea that we can secure borders is much like Caligula wasting his military and money to wage war against Poseidon by sending them to the sea to stab the waves... It's madness.

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 pozogoldstein.com/.../

www.boundless.com/.../

apnews.com/.../fact-check-immigrants-taxes-rent-vaccine-requirements-983035929946

I actually have yet to meet an illegal immigrant who doesn't pay taxes.

[Joshydavid25]

There's a few things that come in my mind reading these.. There's no way they can know exactly how many illegal immigrants there are simply because they are undocumented, and if you would argue they could, then that would defeat the argument that they can't secure the borders in a way.. And if the government can receive taxes from them, why not just start the process to grant them citizenship, since the government can take their money as well.. Seems like proponents advocating for illegal immigration just want more power and money..

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 They can absolutely run studies on illegal immigrants and taxes. Anonymous surveys across the nation run against the numbers they have from employers across the nation get accurate results within a 3-5% margin of error.

They also take IDs of who they catch at the border, and knowing those people will come right back it tells us pretty accurately that if the border stop catching them, they've made it in. There are also ICE numbers. Etcetera. So, while me may not know the exact number any more than we know the exact number of citizens in the country, due to even the census having a margin of error, we can get a pretty accurate idea.

"Why not just start the process to grant them citizenship?" That's easy to answer, because that's not how the law is written. We'd have to vote for that process to become available. It's currently not an option. Instead of us voting to take their money, or even tax them at a higher rate than citizens and really cash in, people are voting to waste more of our own money due to xenophobia instead.

The only segment we made staying, working, and paying taxes legally to were illegal Immigrant children under The Dream Act. They can stay as long as they never break the law, and they also have no chance of citizenship through that program. They do not qualify for any public aid. They also cannot leave the country at all or they lose their eligibility. That part seems odd, it essentially locks them into staying but never being citizens unless they marry citizens. DACA's pay $9.5 billion in taxes a year.

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 I would love more money from taxing illegal immigrants. Our country has a ridiculous amount of debt. We should not be wasting money on anything that does not work. Also, around 30% of farmed food in our nation rots in fields, because we no longer have illegal immigrant labor at levels enough to harvest it all for less than minimum wage. Farmers have to pay nearly $500 per immigrant and do a ton of paperwork to bring each in now. That drives up food costs and limits our food production compared to 20-30 years ago when they would work for $3-4 hr in the hot sun growing food for us at no extra cost to farmers. Illegal immigrants also built houses, cleaned, houses, cared for our children, and cooked our food for dirt cheap.

Getting rid of them has left us with major labor shortages that cannot be filled and more expensive products. It was obvious from the start that people screaming to get rid of them were not doing so for the benefit of our nation as a whole. It was a horrible and ill thought out plan built on nothing but bling hatred and spite. Americans are always finding some group to hate rather than actually fixing problems intelligently...

[Agagagagaga]

@wolfcat87 If walls didn’t work the goddamn Israelis wouldn’t surround themselves with walls. 🙄

F-ing Liberals. Goddamn. 🤦‍♂️

[wolfcat87]

@Agagagagaga First, not a liberal. Someone was just whining about what a right-wing I was a few days ago on here. Make up your silly minds.

Second, the U. S. is incomparable to Israel in size and border lengths and types. How well are those walls working for Israelis and Palestinians killing each other? They aren't. Whether people do something has nothing to do with whether what they do is effective. People are mostly idiots. 😆

[Agagagagaga]

@wolfcat87 OMG walls don’t work! Someone tell China they wasted their time building the Grear Wall.

Dear God! Did you know the Romans built walls all across Britain? What idiots! Walls don’t work!

🙄🖕

Open borders is a Liberal position. And you acting like nothing can be done is what makes you a goddamn Liberal.

You know how to stop mass illegal immigration?

GUNS.

But no. That’s not allowed is it. 🙄

Walls? Clearly those don’t work either according to you. 🙄

Let me guess what your solution is, we “revise” the immigration system so it’s easier for people to immigrate. 🙄

Or we can throw money at the Guatemalans and Venezuelans and hope that they stay in their own country. 🙄

Some solution!

You want to talk about idiots, well honey you’re a goddamn expert.

[wolfcat87]

@Agagagagaga China built the Great Wall against warrior nomads on horses 😆 How many of us are threatened by nomads on horses? They weren't trying to keep out all immigrants. Also, the great wall was breached multiple times. It's a great example of how walls don't keep much out.

Rome fell. Another bad example. Roman walls were breached in many battles.

Guns... oh the irony. Look back through my post history and you'll see what argument got me called a right winger. 🙃😆🤡💩 Pro guns! Wooow. Guess who won the dunce cap today?

I already wrote plenty about what a better solution would be. You didn't read that either. Illiteracy is a plague steeped in ignorance...

[Joshydavid25]

I would say it's the opposite.. Illegal immigrants because of their cheap labor has displace many American workers.. Not to mention while a lot of outlets (mainly left leaning ones) talk about the taxes they pay, they just as well burden the tax system with being able to get welfare and some even are applied as U. S citizens.. The annual cost of illegal immigrants in a fiscal year is about $45 billion.. There's actually more Illegal immigrants coming in than being deported.. Especially since the population more than tripled since the 1990s.. The government is not even taking care of veterans and yet illegal immigrants seem to get soke benefits.. Many have been granted amnesty.. Without borders we aren't even a country.. Not to mention it severely undermines the immigrants who have worked hard and waited long to get through legal immigration.. What's happening with the farms is purely government intervention where it isn't needed..

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 Except when immigrants were cracked down on, the pay in the jobs they had went up and the amount of people willing to take the jobs went down. I already listed multiple jobs now paying 5x as much or more and still facing labor shortages because Americans will not do them at any wage.

Illegal immigrants cannot apply to be U. S. citizens unless they marry an American.

You claim they use welfare, prove it and prove the exact amount used. I've never found a source stating what you're stating.

Annual cost... cost of what exactly? Are we counting all of the departments paid to try to track them down and kick them out? Because that's exactly what I mentioned earlier when I said it's a massive waste of money. But, to throw out a number without actually breaking down what it actually comes from is incredibly vague and unhelpful to a conversation. Where did that number come from?

The government takes great care of veterans. They get priority hiring at all jobs, free college education, can buy a house with no down payment, and if they are homeless they also get free housing for X amount of time. Excellent disability. Not to mention a pension. My family is full of veterans. The benefits are incredibly high compared to every other job. Communities already put them before everyone else as well. There's no comparing how spoiled veterans are compared to everyone else. 🙄😆 They get even more while active duty!

Of course there are more coming in than being deported. That's what I said earlier when I said deporting is pointless and a waste of money the way we do it. They all just come right back. Read back and you'll see me go into detail. There's no way to advertising stop illegal immigration into the U. S. It's scooping water out of a boat with your hands while there's a hole in the bottom and waves pushing water in over the sides. It just won't ever work.

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 Immigrants being granted amnesty aren't illegal immigrants.

Another too vague response. The farmers all agree it's a lack of cheap labor. IE. Illegal immigrants.

What kind of jobs you think legal immigrants have? They're the ones competing for jobs Americans actually want! 😆😆😆 Legal immigrants have higher paying jobs and come here to take higher paying jobs.

[Joshydavid25]

For low skilled highschool dropouts the influx of immigrants (legal or illegal) does have a slight negative impact on native born workers, but it's only like 10% at most.. So that was overblown.. But it definitely still haa some impact mostly on low skilled workers..
knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/.../

www.texasmonthly.com/.../

"Amnesty for unlawful immigrants can pose large fiscal costs for U. S. taxpayers including public education, welfare benefits, and other benefits and services."
www.heritage.org/.../the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

The state of Illinois having budget problems because of all the illegal aliens in the system..
www.politico.com/.../the-1-1b-state-budget-drama-00097828

I got a lot of my economic from this paper as well..
homeland.house.gov/.../Phase4Report.pdf

"Immigrants being granted amnesty aren't illegal immigrants."

Yeah they are that's the whole point of amnesty.. They are pardoned for entering illegally

And I concede to the veteran thing. I'm not too well versed on that front.

And no it's not that they're deporting them and their coming back.. It's that they're not deporting them much at all.. Most of the people they deport were criminals..

That wasn't my point.. My point is that many legal immigrants spend years trying to gain citizenship.. And work hard for it.. Illegal aliens just undermine the whole thing.. Not to mention many legal immigrants are not taking high level jobs since they aren't the most educated.

Apologies if my replies seem out of order.. I was kinda sleepy..

[Agagagagaga]

@Joshydavid25 @wolfcat87 Talk to someone who immigrated LEGALLY how they feel about illegals just being given amnesty.

You haven’t seen rage until you talk to a Mexican who immigrated legally, did all the paperwork, went to the interviews, and passed their citizenship examination—only to hear that others will just be given a free pass after they broke the law.

[wolfcat87]

@Agagagagaga I've spoken to many legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. They don't have much of an effect on each other, so they don't generally care. They aren't competing for the same spaces in society. Legal immigrants are more likely to say whatever makes people like them though, since they are in a new and potentially hostile towards immigrants environment. Like Mexicans who say they are pro Trump in Texas.

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 You've got some good stuff there.

I'll accept the 10% impact.

You're right about amnesty, I confused it with asylum.

Illinois should never have offered a program like that. That's crazy! Same for NY. The problem is paying all these extras for no reason. This is new, and it should not be a thing. They should be coming and sinking or swimming on their own merits like they used to. Not being bused across the country, no extra programs, etc. That really defeats the purpose.

If illegal immigrants are granted the same rights as legal immigrants, then it defeats the purpose... They should not be lumped in with actual illegals who don't qualify for much of anything and can provide cheap services for Americans at a benefit to us all.

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 In your Texas article, there was a disagreement in how to count up the children of immigrants who have citizenship. My brain is burnt out from reading your sources and some of my own already, but I know I ran into one that listed the net cost/benefit of these children over a lifetime, and it was... I can't remember the number.

"A 2006 report by then comptroller Carole Keeton Strayhorn found that undocumented immigrants paid $424.7 million more to the state in taxes and fees than the state spent on them in education (by far the biggest expense), health care, and incarceration. That’s a net gain for Texas. But on the local level, the report found a very different story: Local governments and hospitals were nearly $1 billion in the hole. The illegal adults were definitely the major expense though.

Strayhorn’s report has some serious critics, though. Perhaps the comptroller’s most problematic decision was to exclude the expense of educating the U. S.-born children of undocumented immigrants, on the grounds that these children are American citizens."

It also points out something I stated earlier,

"It should be noted, however, that as many as half of the undocumented immigrants in the U. S. came here legally on visas; they just stayed longer than they were supposed to."

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 A wall does not stop any of those people from coming here and staying. It's a waste of money. Even if we wasted money on this wall, half will still come in legally and just stay. Likely more than half at that point, and many more will just pick a different border to enter such as our coast lines..

Your house. gov source is a good one. It's your best one, it supports your side pretty well.

www.migrationpolicy.org/.../college-educated-immigrants-united-states

"Thirty-two percent of all immigrant adults (12.6 million people) had a bachelor’s degree or higher, similar to the 33 percent rate among U. S.-born adults. And the university-educated share for immigrants is rising among the recently arrived, with 47 percent of those arriving in the last five years having a college degree.

The United States long has been a destination of choice for higher-educated immigrants and those looking to receive a college education, thanks to its robust and dynamic economy, world-acclaimed universities and research facilities, and opportunities for innovation and entrepreneurship. These immigrants have come on various temporary visas for high-skilled workers, as international students and researchers, as well as family members of U. S. residents...

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 [cont.] ... The rise in global levels of education has created a larger pool of higher-educated individuals, many of whom have sought new opportunities in the United States. Facilitated by changing immigration policies and global educational trends, the number of immigrants with higher levels of education in the United States has grown rapidly since 1990: The college-educated immigrant population increased 87 percent between 1990 and 2000, 57 percent between 2000 and 2010, and a further 38 percent between 2010 and 2018 (see Figure 1). The native-born, college-educated population also has grown, but at a slower pace over the same periods: by 33 percent, 26 percent, and 24 percent, respectively. The faster growth of the high-skilled immigrant population means that their share of all college-educated adults in the United States also has increased over the last three decades, from 10 percent in 1990 to 17 percent in 2018."

On the surface, the Heritage article seems good, but as they say always pay attention to the source. Does the source have an agenda and a bias? This source most definitely does. It's pretty far right leaning. Looking at other topics, it's does not provide an unbiased assessment on anything. I went through multiple topics on the site, and there's no section that's not heavily biased... In trying to fact check their data, I found another site agreeing with them only to find out they were also highly biased. What I need to find is an unbiased source to support what they are saying. The problem with statistics is that they can be used out of context to say pretty much anything if a person isn't careful. A biased source is very likely to do that and manipulate their data.

So, because they are biased, I'm not going to say they are true or untrue. What I will do is work them into my own mental math and balance them.

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 We import $454.8 billion in food from Mexico. That number is up 64%, because the same Mexicans who used to grow the food here for us now do it there. We pay them either way. Only, importing weakens the dollar and cuts out profits to American farmers. It also costs more in transportation fees. So, an increase of $291.072 billion a year.

"U. S. goods imports from Mexico totaled $454.8 billion in 2022, up 18.9 percent ($72.2 billion) from 2021, and up 64 percent from 2012."

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/mexico

Housing costs have increased 131% since 2012

finance.yahoo.com/.../...anged-over-165648270.html

Food is up about 38%

www.in2013dollars.com/.../2012-to-2023?amount=20

Childcare options are more expensive and more limited at $284 a week vs the little bit an immigrant could do it for. It's up 220% since 1990. I'm too worn out to find what it was in 2012 for consistency.

www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/

www.axios.com/.../child-care-daycare-costs-states-parents

We should be capitalizing on all this cheap labor to fix real American problems rather than coddling them.

[wolfcat87]

@Joshydavid25 Going after legal immigrants, ICE, and border patrol efforts is going to cost us $25 billion next year. "Companies comprising the military and security industry are among the main beneficiaries of this spending bonanza. Building an ever more militarized and refined border infrastructure is a booming business, worth an estimated U. S. $48 billion in 2022 and on pace to grow to as much as U. S. $81 billion by 2030, according to market research agencies."

The wall is supposed to be $19 billion and climbing, and most of the builders are immigrants! Meaning the exact people meant to be kept out know exactly how it's made and how to get around it. The maintenance fees just add to that.
www.migrationpolicy.org/.../immigration-enforcement-spending-rising

While, I will agree that the current way of handling immigrants isn't a good way, there needs to be a more sustainable way. Both extremely liberal and extremely conservative routes have cost Americans billions and failed us. No housing, no benefits, no eligibility for minimum wage, nadda. On the other hand, no extremist measures that take out contributing and tax paying immigrants or cost us money that won't pay off. The only thing they should still qualify for is education for their children, because those children do contribute more in taxes based on their education levels. Not educating them would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

I didn't proof read any of this, because it's a lot. Good luck!

[Joshydavid25]

Oof, I feel you on the burn out.. I was also very drained from finding and reading sources, because a lot ot information is not easy to find especially if you use Google..

I would say a wall is not perfect and it won't keep everybody out, but built high enough it will do it's job.. It's not just about economy, but also about security.. If we keep up with the illegal immigration it will eventually pose a security risk..

In the state of Texas illegals are disproportionately represented in federal crimes.. They don't know whether it's the state or local level.


They use Texas because unlike most jurisdictions, it actually keeps good data on criminals immigration status..

I do agree that Heritage foundation is bias.. But AP and Politico are also of bias.. I also noticed so pro undocumented worker..

As for the farming situation.. I think the best for us to do is to get rid of the minimum wage requirement, or at least get the government out of how wages are handled between businesses and workers.. So that workers are paid what they are worth, and businesses can gain profit.. I do agree that imported goods hurt local businesses and farms..

[Joshydavid25]

(Cont)
With that being said, I do believe that illegal immigrants who have proven that they can law abiding and hard workers, should definitely be granted some sort of U. S status.. I don't know about using them for cheap labor..

The thing about the visas overstaying while valid, is definitely overstated..
"That report estimated visa overstays in 2014 accounted for 42 percent of the total undocumented population, or about 4.5 million people."
www.politifact.com/.../

Truth is the wall is only a small part of government spending.. We can reduce so many more useless organizations costing us billions of tax payer dollars.. Or just reduce the government in general.. I know I haven't addressed everything.. But like you said, this is a lot of work.. I might as well be in school writing a research paper.. 😂.. But you also have good sources and are smart..

[wiltingrosepetal]

Well a border wall wouldn't feasibly happen where I'm at, but I doubt these would be accurate regardless

[Anonymous]

I agree. I do feel bad for all the good people wanting to come to the US for a better life, but it's not reason enough to compromise our national secuity. If you think Hamas and Hezbollah aren't plotting their next terrorist attact on the US with our weak southern border in mind, you're a fool.

The saddest thing is that the reason Democrats are against securing the southern border is purely political. How anyone can support a party that puts their own political power above national security is beyond me.

[strateguy632]

bbut those "good" would play by the riles and obey laws and do the process. those who obey laws are getting punished for following laws delayed while the undocumented who violate laws therefore truly criminals get rewarded with short cuts. such perversion of justice really angers me.

[normalice]

None of those people disagree with a border wall except democrats. And the reason democrats disagree has to do with the reason none of those others disagree (because it wouldn't work).

[rigmarole]

What about all the pedophile that want their "Ice Cream"...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/mS0M-M2yiXQ

[Jersey2]

Yes. Even A-Hole New Yorkers are pissed about open boarders now.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

There's definitely truth to it. Only idiots don't believe they shouldn't protect their territory and borders.

[strateguy632]

extra not. "Only idiots believe they shouldn't protect their borders" every other country and e. u. gaurds its borders.

[AngryCarl2]

Well Trump didn't build a wall when he was President and I don't think the Republicans ever mentioned it again because they know it can't be done. And Mexico will not pay for it.

[strateguy632]

he buily many walls in segments despite interfere by activist judges.

[exitseven]

That pretty much sums it up. Junkies like it too because it drives down the price of dope.

[jshm2]

Its fucking retarded, just like the dimwit who made the assertion.

[Surely]

Totally agree with this!
I can understand five of the images. But I can not for the life of me understand why senile Joe wants to destroy America!

[strateguy632]

biden is like slitherin house, he rides the plan to weaken u. s. for personal gain and family business interest. recent nov. 15 "Biden hands China big win with military deal.
experts say: 'Incredibly poor decision'".

[Surely]

@strateguy632 Since the Democrats say that walls don’t work. I wonder how many of them have walls around their properties?

[KrakenAttackin]

Israel has had a border wall and it has worked very well until recently.

[Anonymous]

Of course. Because all of those people DO oppose strong borders.

[Anonymous]

Agree 90%, for some reason demd have failed to complain about Biden’s wall…

[bededazzle]

they might be missing a few groups

[DaBiggestBird]

That all looks pretty accurate

[tfan1]

Yes I do wholeheartedly agree

[OldBlue]

Yes I do.

[Summeroflove]

Affirmative

[Tyler273]

Yes, it's so true at this point

[gorydetails]

Yup 100%

[DextroShade]

It's all true.