Should the US continue financial and military support for Ukraine?

[Anonymous]

Commander Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Zaluzhny asked the US Secretary of Defense for 17 million shells and about 400 billion dollars

[nightdrot]

"Yes." Unfortunately, international relations are played out against a backdrop of national interests, are more subtle, and tend to take longer to play out than Americans, with their limited historical knowledge, have the patience to endure. As Lord Palmerston said, "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."

Suffice to add that failure to do so could have serious strategic consequences for the USA. The problem being in this case that while the USA does not have a specific interest in Ukraine winning the war, it has serious interests in Ukraine not losing the war.

Ukraine's current significance to the USA is rather based on its impact on several NATO allies. This especially true of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania and to a lesser extent Hungary. The loss of Ukraine to Russia, absent American security assurances to those aforementioned states, would undermine their strategic position and likely result in the collapse of NATO.

Please also note that the dispute over Ukraine has already, in any case, divided NATO. Britain has been aggressive about sending weapons and diplomatic support to Ukraine. By contrast, Germany is seeking to develop its economic and trade ties with Russia, while using NATO security assurances to protect its own security interests. France, (with some sotto voce help from Italy) in all this, has been quietly seeking to entangle Russia more deeply in Europe, thereby making it a counterweight to German influence in the EU.

Put simply, there is a tangle of conflicting interests not just between NATO and Russia, but within NATO. For the United States to step in with a direct military intervention would likely please Poland, the Baltic States, Romania and the UK, but it would shatter German ties with NATO. This then effectively render NATO "null and void" as it is the fastest strategic access point to eastern Europe, including Russia.

Suffice to say, if the USA's position in Europe is undermine, that plays to the interests of China. Russia and China are not natural allies. Indeed, even when both were communist they were rivals and even fought a brief border war in the early 1960s. Yet if Russia wins in Ukraine, that will play to the interests of China by keeping Russia as a serious rival to the USA in Europe. This then freeing up China to pursue its' aims in the Far East, specifically as relates to Taiwan, and that would mean, in effect, that the USA would be abandoning Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand and Thailand.

Put simply, the United States cannot walk away from Ukraine, but its interests require that it avoid war. If Russia invades Ukraine, there is little beyond diplomatic and economic sanctions that the United States can offer. This is a game of three dimensional chess and not simply a test of wills. The historic interests of the major European powers are at play and in this case American direct interests are secondary.

For the USA, this is about reassuring NATO's eastern flank, balancing the interests of NATO's other major members - the UK, France, Germany and Italy - in order to keep the alliance whole, and to avoid driving Russia and China closer together. This is not a mere contest of muscle.

Suffice to add that it would be profoundly dangerous to see it in such simplistic terms. By that standard, the money the USA is spending on Ukraine is a mere pittance.

[DryGermanGuy]

Germany has cut all ties with Russia (including energy sources) and is the largest military supporter of the Ukraine after the United States.

[nightdrot]

@DryGermanGuy Not sure where you got that from. However, you may find this article helpful.

www.dw.com/.../a-61977500

Germany's relationship to Russia and Ukraine is far more complicated and nuanced than you are suggesting.

[DryGermanGuy]

I get it from the dynamic energy tracker from ZEIT newspaper: www.zeit.de/.../energiemonitor-strompreis-gaspreis-erneuerbare-energien-ausbau

You realize that DW article is 1,5 years old, right?

[nightdrot]

@DryGermanGuy You think the German-Russian relationship has changed that significantly in 1.5 years?

Germany has seen Russia as a source of food and raw materials and as a strategic rival. Russia has seen Germany as a strategic rival in eastern Europe and also as a source of finished industrial goods. They need each other and they are also rivals.

It is NOT either/or, it is rather a love/hate relationship. Indeed, not for nothing did you get the Hitler-Stalin pact. They were not friends, but they had interests that intersected. Interests rooted in geography and history and those interests remain.

Germany has not taken the lead on Ukraine and has sought, quietly, to resolve the issue in a compromise. Suffice to say, Ukraine would not likely smile on such a compromise.

In any case, here is a more recent article that may be of interest: www.theguardian.com/.../why-did-it-take-a-murderous-war-on-ukraine-for-germany-to-wake-up-to-the-threat-from-russia

[DryGermanGuy]

"You think the German-Russian relationship has changed that significantly in 1.5 years?"

How is this even a question? Before the war, Germany got more than 50% of their energy from Russia and offered Ukraine military aid in the form of 50.000 helmets. Since the war, Germany has stopped all energy imports from Russia and has delivered to Ukraine Leopard 1 tanks, Leopard 2 tanks, Gepard AA tanks, hundreds of APCs and IFVs, IRIS-T AA systems, Panzerfaust AT systems and much much more. We just announced a support budget of 8 BILLION for military aid, which indeed makes us the leader in Europe!
So yes, the German-Russian relationship has changed 180 degrees!!!

[nightdrot]

@DryGermanGuy Hardly. Germany is playing a balancing act within NATO between the USA and Russia. It is not that relations have not been impacted.'

Rather, my point is that the fundamentals will not change. Germany has few options for access to raw materials and foodstuffs and to the extent that it will no longer outsource its' defense to the EU and the USA, its' increased defense efforts are likely to have long term negative impacts between Germany and the rest of Europe.

Please note, Germany and Russia had been moving closer prior to the Ukraine War. The underlying dynamic remains and Ukraine will not change that over the long term.

The short term policy changes are not likely to endure. Again, please note, Germany and Russia are not bosom buddies but they share sufficient common interests that make Ukraine, effectively, a interregnum without impacting the long term dynamic. That impact being, as I noted, that Germany will seek to cultivate a "special relationship" with Russia while relying on NATO for security.

Note - as I suggested with the allusion to the NAZI-Soviet pact of 1939-1940, we've been here before.

[Julie4]

In reality, part of Europe continues to buy Russian gas, but not directly. Europeans often buy gas from countries other than Russia, but many of these other countries buy Russian gas and then sell it back to Europeans, often at full price.

Germany should not really be an exception: its contract with Qatar will not be delivered before 2026, and for only
up to 2 million tonnes of LNG per year, which in relation to German gas requirements is quite insignificant. Even if, generally speaking, direct supplies of Russian gas have fallen sharply and imports from the USA have increased.

And as economist Robin Brooks reports

" German exports of cars and parts (blue) are up 5500% to Kyrgyzstan (top left), 720% to Kazakhstan (bottom left), 450% to Armenia (top right) and 340% to Georgia (bottom left). All this stuff is headed to Moscow where Putin's cronies like their G-Wagons. "

Unfortunately I can't share the chart here.

Even the USA continues to feed the Russian economy by buying enriched uranium.

In fact, despite the rhetoric of some and others, and even if it's true that great efforts are being made to depend less on Russia, in reality it's virtually impossible to do totally without a country like Russia for energy, raw materials etc.

[nightdrot]

@Julie4 Well put. My contention was simply that nations have interests - not always compatible with themselves - and will be guided by those interests.

In the case of Germany and Russia there are natural economic and even strategic connections that have made the Russo-German relationship more durable, Ukraine notwithstanding, than say those of France with Russia. Thus why the USA has an interest in counterbalancing those relations.

Overall, that said, you have identified the economic issues very effectively. Tip of the hat.

[DryGermanGuy]

"Please note, Germany and Russia had been moving closer prior to the Ukraine War. The underlying dynamic remains and Ukraine will not change that over the long term."

WRONG. It has already changed, permanently. Merkel is gone and both Nordstream pipelines are out of order. Germany is increasing their renewable energy transformation and his different partners for gas, oil and electricity (Norway, USA, France... etc.). They will not change back, even if the war suddenly ended. Not as long as Putin is in power.

[DryGermanGuy]

"German exports of cars and parts (blue) are up 5500% to Kyrgyzstan (top left), 720% to Kazakhstan (bottom left), 450% to Armenia (top right) and 340% to Georgia (bottom left). All this stuff is headed to Moscow where Putin's cronies like their G-Wagons."

The German government is aware of these rogue exports and will close these loopholes. Of course there is never 100% security. Even during the Iron Curtain some people were able to cross the minefields.

[nightdrot]

@DryGermanGuy There has been some discussion in the United States - and former President Trump suggested that he will if re-elected - withdrawal the USA from NATO. What, in your estimation, would be the likely effect of this happening on German policy and on Europe generally?

On an unrelated note, and as an aside, I am not unfamiliar with Germany on a personal level. My maternal grandmother and her parents lived in - and escaped from - communist East Germany and I have relatives that still live in Germany.

[RingOfFire]

Unfortunately the US has no choice but to be involved in the war in Ukraine. We cannot allow Russia to expand into Europe. The dope in the White House carrying out Obama's third term is the reason we are in this mess in the first place. It is the Democrat's war through weakness strategy instead of Trump's peace through strength strategy. The weak and feckless foreign policy of the Democrats has the world on the brink of nuclear war.

When Obama was president Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea. Then Russia did nothing for four years while Trump was in office because they wouldn't dare. Then as soon as Biden walked in Russia invaded Ukraine again.

The world was at peace under Trump who was the only president in 75 years not to get America into any new wars. In just a matter of months, Biden undid it all and the entire world is on fire. Trump negotiated a monumental peace deal between Arabs and Israel that every president before him tried to do but failed. And now Biden undid the entire thing and the Middle East is on fire.

Elections have consequences. - B. Hussein Obama

[DubiousIntentions]

I love how we can throw money at Ukraine on top of the Billions they have already received, yet for things needed at home, Congress can find no money for. When are we going to stop being the world's wallet and take care of our own? How many people in Ukraine have become rich oligarchs with the money we sent them? Is this going to turn into another Vietnam? There are children going hungry in our country, and some possibly dying of starvation. We have a big homeless problem and really need mental health care improved and made more affordable and available to all.

[PeteBy]

Whilst I sympathise with your sentiments. The USA helped cause this. Also. You have to look at the bigger picture. Dealing with this now stops your troops being killed later. If you didn't, you'd have many thousands dead and saying you won't isn't an option. You would be drawn into a war. This is the lesser of two evils.

[OldBlue]

Or another Afghanistan. 20 years in Afghanistan and what did we get for it?

[Orangekiss]

@OldBlue NADA!

[Orangekiss]

@PeteBy Well aren't the nations in Europe contributing? We have more National Debt then all of them put together, yet we always are the ones that dip into the taxpayers' pockets to help someone else out, not the taxpayers, or anyone else in the US other than the businesses that deal in war.

[DextroShade]

@PeteBy or maybe we can stop wasting our blood and treasure on countries on the other side of the world most of us don't give a fuck about and help our own people instead? Fuck Ukraine and fuck globalists!

[nastyb]

Cuz usa is run by retards

[ChefPapiChulo]

you're all either bots or unaware. russia isn't going to stop at ukraine. we've already seen how uncontested aggression from major powers turns into.

[Orangekiss]

@ChefPapiChulo Well we can worry about it then. This isn't our battle now. Why is the UN sitting on their fannies on this, as well as the other nations? What's China's position? I imagine they are with Russia on this.

[ChefPapiChulo]

@Orangekiss oh it’s a bot lol

[purplepoppy]

I think at this stage the USA should be pushing peace talks. It's reached stalemate and it's better to give Russia an honourable exit out of it before they do something crazy like launch a nuke.
There's also the risk if they take Ukraine the EU will put more military along it's borders and escalate things.

[DryGermanGuy]

I doubt there is anything honorable around Russia could exit their selfmade chaos over. But give them another 200.000 dead soldiers, maybe they start contemplating it?

[Siri137]

@DryGermanGuy "Another" 200,000 dead? Out of which dark crevice did you pull that bullshit statistic out of?

[Veles]

@DryGermanGuy 200k? Lol. An academic had a desire to believe everything he read on Facebook, and we witnessed his adventurous dreams.

[DryGermanGuy]

British Intelligence, AFU, Oryx Research and others have constantly and consistently published numbers that show the current Russian losses (KIA + permanently wounded) at around 300.000. So adding another 200.000 would mean a round number of 500.000 which even a stonecold warmonger like Putin might want to take notice of.

[DryGermanGuy]

I don't have a Facebook or other social media accounts. Stop projecting, silly.

[D_Bone_Steak]

It's not even our country. But who sends his kid there to be in charge and collect money when he knows shit about shit? Get it... he's (Biden) is just getting rich of this war shit. He doesn't care and I have no idea why people that are not even from there or making money off it too gives a shit.

Watch Zelensky's standup comedy though... you'll understand why the Russians are doing what they're doing. He hates Russians and the Jews. I have no skin in the game because I am none of those things and I'm not making money off it. I am watching my country get ripped off to fund it though. I enjoy the little shows of bombing Russians from drones, but I have no beef with Russians... except for when they cut that guy's balls off... that was brutal to watch. I'm you're average 4chan user so... yeah... I've watched all the blood and guts.

[Steelcore5280]

Ukraine, just like Russia, can kick rocks. All that money we've sent to the launderers in that country is being used for other devious things, and meanwhile Americans are struggling to make ends meet and our economy is going to Hell on a hand basket.

None of these countries we send our tax dollars to would ever come to rescue us in a time of crisis. They all talk bad about us and many of them tamper in our elections, snd we reward them with money. The Ukraine Russia crisis is not our monkey, not our circus. Before y'all try to corner me with the Israel conflict, that's also not our problem. Israel can kick ass on its own without us.

I'm tired of being the nanny state for everyone else in the world.

[genericname85]

no. it's a waste of money. it was clear from the get go, that russia will win. everything else would have lead to the breakout of all out hot world war 3. we are still in a cold world war 3 but as long as russia is winning, there's a chance of things calming back down globally.

[genericname85]

i am by no means a fan of putin. i just means what losing ukraine would mean for russia politically. they'd be in a corner. and cornered dogs bite...

[genericname85]

i just "KNOW" what losing ukraine would mean for russia ***

[normalice]

Yes because it is the only way to stop Russia from ushering in an era of global far right dominance. Unfortunately, house Republicans want an era of far right global dominance, and Americans were stupid enough to give republicans the house despite knowing that, so Ukraine will probably not get the help they need.

[DextroShade]

I guess paying for the retirements of his government officials isn't enough, now this greedy asshole wants the American taxpayers to give him another half trillion? He can go fuck himself and so can anyone else who wants to keep letting him use our country as his own personal piggy bank!

[Dargil]

I am thinking not.
*Ukraine is not a NATO member and we are not obligated to defend their border.
*If there are those neighbors who wish to step in, that's their choice.
*We have a loyal ally (Israel) and a border to protect.

We had an improving relationship between Trump and Russia which Biden has scuttled. We have no compelling interests to defend Ukraine other than as a part of Biden's desire to scorched-earth America before his upcoming dirt nap.

[OfDeath]

It’s a dilemma because to pull out is to hand victory to Russia and never be able to live it down. But to continue is to waste more money and possibly cause more deaths.

getting involved was the wrong choice in the first place. They should’ve just provided Ukraine with food aid and a refugee acceptance program.

It isn’t too late for that but it will be humiliation.

[rigmarole]

The Biden/Obama Ukraine money laundering scheme is a criminal conspiracy. Not only should we stop, the diamond need to come back and those involved need to be hung.

[ObscuredBeyond]

It should never have started. Paddington belongs with his head on a pike; not living high on the hog with us giving him everything for nothing!

[NaultD]

Yes. Putin is the antithesis of American democracy and global power.

Let putin waste all his political power on his 3 day military excuse turn into a 3 year long failed war attempt. Same way the war on terrorism did to usa since 2001.

[coachTanthony]

Biden already promised he would when he took those bribes lol

[OldBlue]

It's bad enough that we gave weapons to Ukraine, but giving them cash is about as effective as giving the homeless drug addicts cash.

[tfan1]

No - have you realized how much money we don’t have and bonehead is printing it like wallpaper making our money lose value? Has any of the other nations contributed? If so probably not as nearly as much as us. I say enough is enough.

[Siri137]

No, of course not. They should never have supported Ukraine in the first place.

[ShadezMcgee]

Nope. Cut sling load and go. We have given more than enough for the time being. Let's put that money to our citizens and border security.

[IslaTheWitch]

Destabilising Russia is in favour of everyone involved, so I would say "yes", any country that can, should support Ukraine.

[Light_beam]

wow !!

[NamerOfStars]

At this point, if the government is bound and determined to throw money away, they should just bribe Putin into suing for peace.

[Surely]

Of course. As long as the Biden crime family is getting kick backs!
I wonder how much Ukraine’s neighbors are contributing to the cause?

[ImalwaysrightOK]

I want the right wing to takeover everywhere and jail all leftists indefinitely as payback.

[Danny_dan92]

Nope. Same thing for Israel as well.




America first

[Anonymous]

Yes. Cheapest war we ever fought. We are lending Ukraine money to but American weapons that we are planning to replace with newer more modern ones.

[BCA6010]

We shouldn't have started in the first place.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

If USA stop suporting Ukraine the entire world including USA in future will face a grate downfall

[FunkyMonkee]

Absolutely not!! We have SHITLOADS of pour people here in THIS country that are in MUCH worse shape and THEY should be helped, first!!

[Anonymous]

Yes, of course. Ukrainian people shouldn't have to live under a far dictator like Putin, just like I don't want to live with Trump as my dictator.

[jshm2]

No. they should not have started in the first place.

[slatyb]

Yes, we should, absolutely. Although I'm very skeptical of the $400 Billion dollars.

[Unit1]

Imagine stopping Putlers spreading terrorism requires heavy tributes. And they definitely ain't pacifists.

[ThrillSeeker01]

Yes, it's like what we were doing during World War II. If you don't, the tyrants get encouraged and they keep going

[RainBat]

No, the US should just annex the entirety of Europe.

[Snakeyes7]

We shouldn't have been doing that in the first place.

[OldBlue]

Exactly!

[DreamLife7]

No, America is taking care of everyone but their own citizens. Bring trump back 2024

[captain_voidwalker]

Nope we have enough problems at home we should cut off all financial aid to other nations until our house is in order

[Anonymous]

Nah but Joey will give it because that's his pension trust fund being set up for once Hunter's used all the brown smuggled outta Afghanistan

[LiamJHayden]

At this point pulling the rug out would be couterproductive.

[Anonymous]

No. I fully support pulling all foreign aid from all countries.. And letting them blow each other to hell.

[ChefPapiChulo]

after ukraine its the rest of Europe. better stop them now before they get momentum.

[blackcowboystudbrady]

Yes, because appeasing Putin will empower him to realize his Greater Russia fantasy and annex the rest of the former Soviet Union.

[Kelly6]

no, it' time to stop

[Alexandrubaschet08]

PISS OFF

[Kelly6]

@Danny_dan92

[Danny_dan92]

@Alexabdrubaschet08

Why pussy? Hey while you have overwhelming support for foreign affairs why not volunteer? They need military aged men to join the fight

Or you all talk?

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@Danny_dan92
1. I'm not obligate to do so
2. My enemy, enemy is my friend.
3. If USA don't give suport even USA will face a time that will be dangerous for theyr existance.
4. There is no overwhelming suport, whas send only 5% of NATO posibilitis.
5. You are a pro-russian propagandistic acount

[Danny_dan92]

What country you from?

[Danny_dan92]

My enemy, my enemy is my friend?

[Danny_dan92]

The US has the capabilities to turn Russia into a parking lot. Russia’s population is condensed due to it’s harsh northern terrain

[Danny_dan92]

Also, correct your English before you try to give guidance on what MY country does when it comes to foreign affairs. Especially give you have no military experience or background when I do

[abc3643]

Yes, of course.

[RedInnocent68]

Yes. Russia is not your friend.

[jimmy2]

I think we done with that Isreal needs help now

[whistlingwh0res]

Tit suckers war why care?

[austinbooth]

Yes they should

[gorydetails]

lol, no.

[shortster]

Not another dime.

[Fuentes]

Lol fk no

[Slim57]

No..