France, 1st country in the World , to enshrine abortion Rights in constitution. What image does this send of France & its society?

[Julie4]

I won't give my personal opinion here. I'll just say that I was opposed to its inclusion in the constitution.

In fact, inclusion in the constitution means that we consider that this is a matter of human dignity, that it's not just something we allow, but that it's almost something we can wish for. For example, freedom, etc.

In this sense, abortion cannot be something we can wish for, and so inscribe it in our constitution.

[nightdrot]

Well, it is clear that France has rejected the influence of the Catholic Church in its' national life and in that sense it is the logical outgrowth of the principles of the French revolution. That, in effect, liberty is not a means to virtue but an end in itself.

The British statesman and political philosopher Edmund Burke wrote, "The effect of liberty to individuals is that they may do as they please. We ought see what it will please them to do before we risk congratulations." Therein lay the problem with laws that permit abortion on demand.

A society that premises its law as "Choice"- to use the locution of abortion rights advocates - effectively leaves open the question of the value of human life. It becomes not a standing principle, but a subjective judgment to each individual. In such a society, human life becomes not an end in itself, but mere instrument. Life becomes not an object whose preservation is the highest standard, but rather a convenience to be maintained or not according to the satisfaction of another's will.

We shape our laws and then our laws shape us - see also the civil rights laws of the 1960s which have effected a revolution in race relations. (The idea that a black man and a white man cannot sit together at the same lunch counter is as alien to this generation as Neptune. Yet in 1965 it was pretty much the norm.)

Inherent then in the pro-choice argument is the idea that life has no value save that which each person chooses to attach to it. It denies society any authority to make a collective judgment on such questions. Therefore, in this view, the law may not afford protection to life except at some arbitrarily defined (and inherently subjective) point.

This then conduces to an assertion of power over rights. Life is maintained not as its own end, but according to the will of the person who, effectively, controls it because they can. An ethic of convenience is established and it is a slippery slope on which to build a culture and a legal edifice.

Such a society will not value life that sees life as not an end, but as a means to some other end. Indeed, that is why at about the same time as the culture began to shift on the abortion question we also saw a rise in child abuse, spousal abuse, divorce, out of wedlock births and other social pathologies. These were not unrelated phenomena.

Aristotle said that the first questions of politics are, "How ought we to live? What kind of a people do we wish to be?" The implicit answer of those who support abortion on demand is, in effect, that it is nobody's business. Predictable results follow. One cannot expect the society to absent itself from collective moral judgments on the value of life and then expect an ethical social order to result.

This is where France finds itself. A society that chooses liberty not as the means to the attainment of virtue and centralizing human life as an end in itself. Rather making it mere instrument of human will, absent any social or legal judgment on what that will might be.

[Julie4]

What do you want, as I said without mentioning my personal opinion on the subject, I was absolutely against the inclusion in the constitution.

However, in a democracy, it's the majority that decides, and the votes are clear: 780 voted for and only 72 against.

[nightdrot]

Yes, that is what I said. It is pretty clear that there is a consensus against the intellectual and moral inheritance France took from its' historic relationship to the Roman Catholic Church, the monarchy and so forth.

That is not too surprising. The purpose of the French revolutionaries - read Burke - was to, in effect, erase the past and establish a tabula rasa on which they could write whatever they liked. At one level, that was a blow for the maximization of liberty.

However, at another level, it opened the gates to a Biblical error, so to speak. "If ye eat of the fruit of the Tree, ye shall be as gods." There is a certain moral and intellectual hubris that came out of the Enlightenment and the French revolutionaries that has ebbed and flowed throughout Western - and French - history since 1789.

This is an expression of that hubris. A sort of radical individualism that, on the positive side, can conduce to political liberty but at a cultural and social level conduces to hubris and moral nihilism.

That is where France - and indeed much of the West - finds itself. Political liberty maximized, but detached from any broader or ethical framework. Liberty, as I say, has become not a means to the pursuit of virtue, but rather an end in itself. There will be consequences - and indeed already have been consequences - for that.

[nightdrot]

P. S. Jus to add, what that large majority is, in fact, is the numerical, political and legal expression of a cultural and sociological consensus. That is that the value of life is not an objective moral or legal standard but a subjective individual judgment.

Now, as I say, at one level, that is the maximization of liberty. However, there is a dark side to it. Hitler was also radically free to decide what human lives had value and which not - bad things to follow.

Now I am not saying that France is going that far. However, France is essentially accepting the same moral and philosophical logic. Life has no value save that which the individual with the power to do so chooses to attach to it.

[Julie4]

Yes, in fact, beyond the politicians, 66% of the French population were in favour of its inclusion in our fundamental law.

I do not know if other countries in the West have reached this level because even if they allow abortion, they do not enshrine it in their constitution.

In your opinion, who said this:

"'After me, the Revolution, or rather the ideas that made it, will resume their work with renewed strength. It will be like a book that is picked up and read again from the page where it was left off. So, if skillful hands do not dig a bed for the tor**** and do not dam its course, it will overflow its banks far and wide and cover them with deplorable and immense debris.

These doctrines, what are called the principles of 1789, will forever be a threatening weapon for the discontented, the ambitious and the ideologues of all times.

But the Wretched, they do not see that I have extinguished the Revolution and worked for twenty years to channel its principles. They will see that after me they will no longer be strong enough to stop the tor**** which in the next few years will drag us all away!' "

[nightdrot]

Methinks it was your old buddy Napoleon.

He was right, of course. However, he was simply recognizing the pattern that, in effect, brought him to power. The French Revolution and its' turmoil that made Napoleon necessary.

When he was defeated, chaos followed and he expected that, human nature being what it is, that society would look for a new savior. Rinse and repeat.

You saw the same thing - at an even more nefarious level - in Russia, in Germany. Societies governed by dictators that capped social turmoil. Then society outgrew them, tumult followed, and then society, desperate for peace and order, looked for new saviors.

Politics is hard. Striking the balance between liberty and order is not easy. Burke and those like him sought stability in recurrence to the time tested principles of history. Those like Napoleon and the like pursued a more vitriolic and visceral course.

[Julie4]

You found it, it's Napoleon.

Anyway I hope you and your family are well, take care. 😊

[nightdrot]

Always our best to you and yours', too!

[abc3643]

I am not sure how France can "enshrine abortion right in [its] Constitution".

Granted, I am not very cognizant of France's Constitution but if the French legislators can do this "enshrining in the Constitution" any right, that implies that French legislators can just as easily "dis-enshrine" that right that was previously "enshrined".

In the US, it is not nearly as easy to amend the US Constitution because, unlike France which is a unitary national government, the US is a federation so a 3/4 majority of the states must ALSO approve a change to the Constitution. Thus, genuine changes to the US Constitution (called "Amendments") are rare and, rarer still, are the Amendments which alter previous parts of the US Constitution.

So, I am not so sure that the right to an abortion is truly "enshrined" in the French Constitution. Nonetheless, the right to an abortion in the French Constitution is a good thing.

[strateguy632]

um france had 90% NINETY to add this to constitution agreed because not specified how many weeks!

[abc3643]

@strateguy632 I don't think you understand what I'm complaining about. Any political decision can be reversed at any point. The French Constitution was changed by one group of politicians. In the United States, it is not that simple at all since 51 groups of politicians are involved.

[4ngelic]

perso je trouve que c'est une bonne chose. au moins en france on sera jamais obligées de porter un enfant non désiré et d'avoir les études/carrière/vie affectés voir ruinés contre notre volonté. meme si l'avortement c'est pas anodin et que c'est quand meme un peu triste, le droit à l'avortement c'est quelque de nécessaire pour que les femmes soient à l'égale des mecs, et que la loi fait en sorte que c'est encore plus protégé, donc perso je trouve que c'est une bonne chose. aussi ca donne une bonne image de la france, donc je suis lowkey un peu fière

[At3mis24]

For me living in France, it is indeed a great step forward, but what I wonder, which worries me a little, will it guarantee me real help in the event that I am raped? It is absolutely out of the question that I keep the fruit of a rape if that happened...

[Julie4]

Comment ça ne serait pas garanti? Il y avait pas besoin que cela soit dans la constitution pour cela. .

[At3mis24]

Même si la loi est de mon côté, ça pourrait être mal vu dans certains milieux hospitaliers, il suffit que je tombe sur un staff médical malveillant et conservateur pour que ma demande soit refusée

[Julie4]

Oui mais ils pourraient pas refuser , ou alors ils se mettraient dans l'illégalité

[RavVid]

It is problematic I think to conceive of natural absolute rights. Rights can easily conflict - your right not to be vilified conflicts with my right to free speech.

We don't even have the right to life - a policeman may shoot us if we are endangering others. If we can't have an absolute right to life (and not be shot by idle policemen) how can we have any natural rights.

The simple fact is that utilitarian 'greatest good' conflicts with natural rights. My right to life conflicts with the greatest good of stopping me endangering others lives.

I subscribe to Bentham on this issue.

[purplepoppy]

I support the right to abortion but not enshrining things into a constitution. I feel laws need to be fluid and change easily after debate to suit changing times.

[Joshydavid25]

Hahaha.. That's funny, that's just what they thought happened in our constitution.. But the constitution is all about recognizing that the government has no right to take away these rights and that these are natural human rights afforded to them.. I don't see how abortion fits that bill since it's not anything natural..

[RebelinSteel]

Well it’s been a legal right since 1974 or so. It was just the right move, it stops it being changed in the future possibly due to religions getting more voter power. Good for France.

[strateguy632]

such ignorance! they france limit abortion allow until 14 week. no right after 14 week. is that what u. s. should copy? democrats don't limit allow until 14 week! "life starts after birth" they say!

[FreyaRed]

Abortion is an issue where people who exploit christian belief can show their influence of politics. Setting abortion right in constitution is the epitome of secularism.

[NamerOfStars]

The country that banned paternity tests, even if taken in another country?

Sexism doesn't become more acceptable just because you put a silent E at the end of it.

[_piotr]

It just shows how France is driven by crazy leftists since French Revolution. Poor Luis XVI. Oh, what this rotten marxist ideology did to this once respected, catholic country. Immigrants, children killing,...

[loveslongnails]

The need to inscribe it today is in response to conditions - today. Personally, I think you're reading too much into it due to your bias, but I could say the same about myself.

[laly520]

its so over for france

it keeps falling back in time n what u mentioned isn't a sign of being progressive

rather than being extreme

[gorydetails]

It shows that France is a shithole. Just of another example of our nihilistic, demonic culture in the west that is rapidly destroying it.

[At3mis24]

And what do you think a woman who has been raped should do? Propose solutions since you’re so smart!

[gorydetails]

@At3mis24 What percentage of abortions are because of rape?

[At3mis24]

This is not a solution.

[gorydetails]

@At3mis24 and that wasn’t an answer. It’s ok, I know why you avoided it.

[Anonymous]

I love it when nations celebrate abortion while simultaneously bemoan their own falling birth rates while also importing mass migrations of foreigners.

Liberty! Egality! Fraternity! 🤣🙄

[Iron_Man]

a very bad image, to murdering children alive in the womb

[At3mis24]

And women who are rapped? Have you thought about them?

[Iron_Man]

Adoption

[At3mis24]

I will never keep a child from a rape! It’s the worst thing in the world, it’s a heinous crime! No woman deserves to be raped, if you think that you are a rapist! Shame on you!

[Iron_Man]

@At3mis24 do you have any idea what you’re talking about take your bent up frustration somewhere else you don’t murder children. Enough said.

[Iron_Man]

How was it that kid fault that came from a rape you can adopt the kid out he’s an innocent child

[DarkLegacy]

France like Canada is becoming a simpy white knight country.

[SolitarySolace]

All that does is benefits women. As if women don’t have enough rights or choices

[At3mis24]

They don't have enough rights: in France, most rapists remain unpunished...

[exitseven]

It is not just the US that have lost their marbles

[DarkLegacy]

Nope it is all first world countries

[slatyb]

Enlightenment. They won't be the last.

[butterly248]

I'm so happy. I hope more countries follow soon ❤️

[Cazaputas]

abortion should be illegal in all cases,

[At3mis24]

Exept for a rape!

[Dongie]

Tells me they are ungodly.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Stupid. France is a cursed country.

[maj1nall]

I congratulate you. I think it was a murder, too.

[At3mis24]

A murder? For a rape? Who are we laughing at?

[maj1nall]

Rape is one thing. But if a woman gets pregnant voluntarily and as a result wants to have an abortion, this is murder.