Why is Jerusalem not the Capital of the Jewish people?

[Skinhead-1979]

I have been following this Satmar Rabbi for a while; his name is Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro. While I do often find myself agreeing with him, I do not agree with Satmar (and many other Jewish, Orthodox, organisations - I distrust Neturei Karta).

Satmar is a Jewish Dynasty... throughout history there have been many 'Civil Wars' and 'Succession Crises'; Satmar does not oppose a Jewish State, Satmar opposes a 'Zionist' State. This is why I disagree with Satmar; there is no need nor place for a Jewish State, the moreover because the claim that 'Jews' deserve a State is built upon false historical narratives.

[Lliam]

It is a holy city to Jews, Christians and Muslims.

The region was multi-cultural and multi-faith forever, going back to the neolithic age. Contrary to the Torah, Hebrews/Israelites/Judeans were never dominant in the region. They were one of many other cultures.

That includes during different empires - Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Egyptian, Helenist, Roman, Byzantine, Muslim, Frankish (Crusaders), and then the hundreds of years of Muslim rule that followed.

The temple location is not on the dome of the rock. See video.
https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3262243.

Map of Jerusalem and the City of David:
https://www.christianlifeministries.com.au/places-of-interest/cityofdavid/

It's evil for Zionists to claim it as their capital at the exclusion of others.

[Lliam]

Thanks for the MHO, Skinhead-1979!

[Skinhead-1979]

You are welcome 😊

[NamerOfStars]

Because Jews are members of a religion, not a country.

[Skinhead-1979]

Yes, that's exactly what this Satmar Rabbi says.

Simple fact is... Anyone can convert to Judaism as long as you embrace the Torah and Yahweh; people cannot switch to a new Ethnicity nor Race.

Jewish Society is almost as diverse in Ethnicity as the World Population is:

Beta Israel: Ethiopian Jews

Mizraim: 'Middle Eastern' or 'Egyptian' Jews, Mizraim meaning Egypt in Hebrew

Ashkenazim: German Jews, Askhenaz or Eretz Ashkenaz means Germany in Hebrew

Sephardim: 'Spanish Jews', Sepharad means Spain in Hebrew.

Yemeni Jews

All these Jewish people, from various regions of the world, have different ethnicities. Judaism is the binding factor, though even Religiously there are differences. Many of the Ashkenazi religious Rites and Traditions have been created by Rabbi Rashi of Troyes during the early Middle-Ages; other Jews groups do not accept many of those Rites and Traditions because to them it has nothing to do with Judaism

[Skinhead-1979]

The Beta Israel even follow a 'Non Talmudic' version of Judaism whereas all the other Jewish 'sects' do follow a Talmudic version of Judaism.

There are 2 Talmudic versions... The Babylonian and the Jerusalem Talmud; one is from 400CE the other from 500CE (Can't find the info back at the moment, but is not really relevant).

[NamerOfStars]

AD. If the thought of the Gregorian calendar is too much for you, then USE A DIFFERENT CALENDAR. Half-assing it just makes you look bad.

[Enginn]

The status of Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish people is a complex and contentious issue with deep historical, religious, and political significance. Jerusalem holds great religious and cultural importance for Jewish people, being the site of their ancient temple and a focal point for Jewish worship and identity. However, the city's status as a capital is disputed due to conflicting claims from other groups.

From a political perspective, the situation is further complicated by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both Israelis and Palestinians claim Jerusalem as their capital, with each side seeking control over all or part of the city. This dispute has been a major obstacle in efforts to achieve peace in the region.

The international community has largely refrained from formally recognizing Jerusalem as belonging exclusively to any one group due to its contested status. In 198, Israel declared Jerusalem its "eternal and undivided" capital but this declaration has not been widely accepted by other countries.

In summary, while many Jewish people view Jerusalem as their spiritual center and historical capital, its political status remains subject to ongoing debate and negotiation between different parties involved in this complex geopolitical issue.

[Skinhead-1979]

In my opinion, due to Jerusalem's significance to all 3 Abrahamic Religions, it should become a Holy City; something akin to the Vatican, but then jointly administered/ governed by representatives of all 3 religions. It'll be a little bit more complicated than that of course due to the splits within Christianity and Islam... but I am sure smarter people than I can come to a good agreement.

[Berethor]

Muslims main place is Mecca not Jerusalem, and Christians have the Vatican.

[Drewtate]

@Berethor well actually Jerusalem is n01 holy city in Christianity. Jerusalem & constantinople are the 2nd & 3rd depending on if you are Catholic or orthodox. Protestants to hold Rome or consantinople as holy I don't think.

[Drewtate]

Capital of Israel is Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the city of King David & thus the capital of Judaism, Samaritism & Christianity just like Mecca is the holiest city in Islam.

Why shouldn't the Jews be allowed to rule themselves in their own lands. This is a problem throughout almost the entire Muslim world where native people's colonised by Muslims like the coptics, assyrians, kurds, Greeks, Cypriots, Hindus, Christians, seiks, buddists are discriminated against, persecuted & not allowed any sort of self governance in their own lands.

[Berethor]

Because it historically been the capital of jews, and the place of the temple in jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem

[Skinhead-1979]

No, first it was the Capital of the United Monarchy of Israel and Judah

Then a Civil War started between the southern Kingdom of Judah (Capital Jerusalem) led by Solomon's son Rehoboam and the northern Kingdom of Israel (Capital Samara). The Dual-Monarchy came to an end.

The Northern Kingdom of Israel got defeated an annex by the Neo-Assyrians around 720BCE.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah got defeated and annex by the Neo-Babylonians in 587BCE

The, former, Israelite King, nobility and priest class got exiled; there is archaeological evidence of continuous habitation of the former kingdom, despite the immediate area around Jerusalem having been depopulated,

[Skinhead-1979]

"Archaeological excavations and surveys have enabled the population of Judah before the Babylonian destruction to be estimated to have been approximately 75,000. Taking the different biblical numbers of exiles at their highest, 20,000, this would mean that perhaps 25% of the population had been deported to Babylon, with the remaining majority staying in Judah.[18]: 306  Although Jerusalem was destroyed, with large parts of the city remaining in ruins for 150 years, numerous other settlements in Judah continued to be inhabited, with no signs of disruption visible in archaeological studies"

When the Achaemenid Empire, led by Cyrus the Great, had defeated the Neo-Babylonians; the Israelites were allowed to return to their former land now known as 'Yehud Medinata'. It is from this word that the word 'Yehudi' derives: Yehudi means 'Jew'. It was Cyrus the Great who allowed the 'Jews' to build their Temple, the 2nd Temple, in Jerusalem

[Skinhead-1979]

Jerusalem went back and forth a few times, but eventually the Roman controlled it. The Romans allowed the Jews to create a 'semi-autonomous' kingdom, first under the Hasmonean Dynasty (140-37BCE) , later the Herodian (4BCE-92CE). During the Herodian period a civil war broke out in 68CE, the 'Zealot Temple Siege'. This conflict brought the Romans into conflict with the Jews in 70CE, the first Roman-Jewish War. It was during this war that the Jews set fire to their quarters to block the Romans, the Romans were not the slightest interested in putting down the fires, an Jerusalem + the 2nd Temple burned down.

The issue is that for propaganda purposes certain terms are being conflated with each other. Jew, Hebrew and Israelite are not the same thing. A Hebrew was someone who could speak Hebrew; Hebrew was not the language of the Israelites (that was Aramaic), Hebrew was a Holy Language. A Jew is not an Israelite. Judaism did not exist during the time of the Israelite Kingdoms, Judaism has been formed in Babylonian Exile and later when the former Israelites were a part of the Achaemenid Empire. The religion of the Israelite Kingdoms was 'Yahwism'; a cross over between Monotheism and Polytheism (The OT mentions 'El'; 'Asherah', Yahweh's wife is being mentioned)

So while I will of course agree with you that Jerusalem is a very important city to the Jews; It is a Holy city... a Holy City for the 3 Abrahamic Religions. Judaism is a religion, a Religion does not need a State nor Capital... This is exactly what Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro explains in the video.

[Skinhead-1979]

At every step through my 'essay' I had attached Wikipedia articles to show what my source is.

I know you can post Wikipedia links... you have done that too... but I could only post my reply after I had removed the links to Wikipedia articles (don't know why).

Everything I have said can be verified on Wikipedia; Wikipedia is my main, but also as good as my only source, for information. I do not use dodgy sites or 'talk rooms'. Because this is a rather sensitive topic, I have to do my best in writing my essays and I have to reinforce that with supporting material.

I can direct you to all the Wikipedia articles would you be interested in reading more about it.

[Berethor]

Judaism is Both Religion and Ethnic, Judaism started from Abraham and his Family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

[Drewtate]

The Persians allowed the Jews to return to Israel. After the Persians were conquered by Alexander the great it passed into the hands of various Macedonian successor states until until the macabees rebelled and gained independence for 130 years until 30 years before the birth of Christ the last Hasmonean king was overthrown by the Romans after decades of being a client kingdom.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Drewtate Very true of course; due to limitation of how long a reply can be... and generally people are not overly interested in walls of text on social media, I try my best to keep things short and thus end up leaving out things, maybe sometimes a bit too much.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

There’s a big difference between a jewish state and a zionist state. I agree a race-based system of government isn’t the best choice, look at how it turned out for the US after all, but zionism is close to an idea of Jewish superiority. Wanting a sanctuary for Jewish people isn’t wrong, but forcibly taking it from others because you want their land is obviously wrong

[Skinhead-1979]

A 'Zionist' State is a 'Jewish' State; that is what the whole ideology is about.

While there have been periods in history that life for Jewish people was indeed being made difficult... I do not see how that warrants a new State centred around them. As this Rabbi makes clear, 'Jews' are not a race...'Jews' are member of a religion. Religious people do not need a state nor capital. Jerusalem is important to Christians, Jewish people and Muslims; so either it should be governed equally... or none should have it. The Vatican is not the Capital of the Catholic World; the Vatican is a Holy City just like Jerusalem is.

Jewish people have always been taught that they are superior to us... Their God, which they have created themselves (plenty of evidence; also in the OT), has deemed them 'God's Chosen' and others are 'Goyim'. So this superiority which is so apparent now has always been around. Jewish people are of course not to blame, Jewish Religious leaders are to blame; though they may not even know themselves. Judaism is old, it's not the oldest Monotheistic Religion, that's Zoroastrianism (which has influenced the Abrahamic Religions); there have been many succession crises and civil wars. The Pharisees (the ones who handed Jesus over to the Romans) had been around for some time, but they become the dominant force within Judaism after the 'Zealot Temple Siege' of 68AD which led to the First Roman-Jewish War. The Pharisees are the predecessors of the Rabbinical Class; Judaism's religious leaders.

[Skinhead-1979]

For centuries great Jewish minds have struggled with the 'Jewish Question'. They saw the desperate situation of Jewish communities within the European Hosting countries. Jewish people were largely sticking to their own, living in 'Shtetl' (Jewish Ghettos). Interaction with others was minimal, though Jews provided valuable service outlawed by the Catholic or Protestant Church (Usury for example). When life was good for everyone, Jewish people were 'Tolerated' (I'd say that's the best word); when times were bad, the local population would turn onto the Jews.
A Baruch Spinoza, 17th century Dutch-Sephardim-Portuguese philosopher, theorised about how Jews could integrate better into the hosting societies and gain political standing. Spinoza advocated for Judaism to reform itself and abandon its ancient laws. Naturally the Rabbinical Class excommunicated Spinoza. Spinoza also mentioned a 'Jewish State'; that way Jews did not have to integrate and abandon their ancient laws to gain political standing. He did not think it was feasible and thus never expanded on it. He firmly advocated for greater integration.

+/- 2 centuries later, late 18th/ early 19th century, Jewish society went through Jewish Enlightenment, Haskalah. Jewish thinkers picked up on Spinoza's theories... and that's how Zionism came to be. It was a secular ideology entwined with Socialist economical policies (Founding Father: Moses Hess... worked with Marx, and introduced Engels to Marx and Marxism/ Communism).
Zionism had no support amongst the highly religious Orthodox Jews; though a few Rabbis were interested. Abraham Isaac Kook is the main ideologue of 'Religious Zionism'; he strongly pushed for Religious Orthodox Jews to see Secular Zionism as some divine intervention, and he also strongly pushed the Secular Zionists to take religious views into consideration too: Hence Religious Zionism was born.

[Skinhead-1979]

The reason why I said I disagree with a Satmar, and don't trust Neturei Karta.

Highly Religious, Orthodox Jews who are 'Anti-Zionist' still aspire a Jewish State, 'God's Kingdom', as their religion tells them will return to them once the Messiah has returned. That is their Messianic Prophecy.

They disagree with the 'Zionist' Jewish State because no Messiah has come yet. To them the Jewish people have not been redeemed by God. Going in against God Will will only bring greater retribution on them.

I have contact occasionally with Gilad Atzmon, and I have read his book. He is... was... Israeli; he firmly believed in the Zionist Ideology. His grandfather was in Irgun, close to Ze'ev Jabotinsky (A very influential figure in Right-Wing, Jabotinsky, Zionism. Likud is the political successor of Irgun).
Of course he is being labelled an Anti-Semite, Self-Hating Jew, etc... Zionists have tried to destroy him. But I am firmly with him on Judaism... Judaism is at the core of it all.
That may sound 'Anti-Semitic', but Anti-Semitism is 'HATRED' towards Jews. I don't hate Jews, why would I? I have said Jews are not even aware of it; they are victims themselves plain and simple being lied to through their religion.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Zionism is to Judaism what Jihad is to Islam. Extremist idealism that doesn’t represent the majority but does a massive amount of damage to the image of the religion itself

[Skinhead-1979]

That is very true of course.

Judaism itself is harmless of course; Orthodox Jews espouse a sober life entirely devoted to studying the Torah and Tanakh. They firmly believe that if they do that enough, God will redeem them and send the Messiah. Once the Messiah has arrive God's Kingdom will be reborn and Jews can live in peace and prosperity.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in believing that... The Jewish Messianic Prophecy sounds a lot nicer, and reassuring, to me than the Christian Evangelic one (Messiah Smiting the Unbelievers... That's me; and no, no Biblical Genocide please).

But Judaism does tell Jews they are God's Chosen, that they are special... that they are better than others and thus are entitled. That is in my opinion a rather dangerous mindset to plant in people's mind since the day they were born for centuries and centuries on end.

I've read sufficiently into Islam's history to know where the origins of Islamic Extremism lay, but it will be a very long essay would I continue on that subject. Extremism with Islam dates back to the first 'Fitna', First Islamic Civil War which was between 656-661CE during Ali ibn Abi Talib reign who was the 4th Caliph of the Rashidun Caliphate... but the same of course goes for Islam too; Islam itself is harmless

Due to being very active as a Pro-Palestinian/ Anti-Zionist 'activist' ( may be a bit of a big word for me... but I am active, and I do try to raise awareness) I have had to read deep into the history of Judaism and Islam (The Theological part has no meaning; nothing in the OT can be historically proven... and, as I may have mentioned, the OT sometimes contradicts Judaic and Christian believes).

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

I just realized what your username is, kinda explains everything. Have a good night

[Skinhead-1979]

It explains nothing because clearly you do not know what Skinhead is

"both first and second generation skins were influenced by the rhythms of JAMAICAN music genres such as SKA, ROCKSTEADY, and REGGAE, as well as sometimes AFRICAN-AMERICAN soul and rhythm and blues."

And you clearly don't read what a type

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

It’s also another kind of aryan

[Skinhead-1979]

Did you even understand that little quote?

Skinhead came to be as a fusion between immigrants from the 'West-Indies' and the British Hard-Mods. The Music style the INITIAL Skinheads listen to were BLACK MUSIC STYLES: Ska, Reggae, Soul.

Skinhead would not have existed without 'Jamaica' it's that plain and simple. Skinhead has existed since the 1960s with 1969 being said to be its peak.

Now, I know why you are now completely shutting down because all you have heard, and maybe seen (I don't know where you live, I haven't checked... but it's bad in the US from what I can gather), is the bad stuff some very nasty shits, who did come from within our ranks, have done. They are the ones who are wrong, they are not Skinheads because they don't even know where our origins lay.

I can show you hundreds of photos of BLACK SKINHEADS... Some of my brothers, also from the US, are BLACK.

You are not accusing me of being a prejudiced racist prick... while you are the one displaying the prejudice. You do not want to open your eyes and listen to me that Skinhead is not Neo-Nazi nor Racist.

[Skinhead-1979]

The style of typing I have been using should also be a clear indication where I stand.

That I have voiced criticism regarding Judaism does not make me an 'Anti-Semite'; I have been very clear that I have nothing against Jewish people and that no matter everything I have said Jewish people are still victims.

You don't even know how and when the term 'Anti-Semitism' came to be. That was an Austrian Pro-Zionist who used the word first in his correspondence with a French Rival. The Rival claimed, which is true, that Jewish people are not a Race (If you want to know more, read further comments under the OP):

"The origin of "antisemitic" terminologies is found in the responses of orientalist Moritz Steinschneider to the views of orientalist Ernest Renan. Historian Alex Bein writes: "The compound anti-Semitism appears to have been used first by Steinschneider, who challenged Renan on account of his 'anti-Semitic prejudices' [i. e., his derogation of the "Semites" as a race].""

en.wikipedia.org/.../Antisemitism#Origin_and_usage

Here is Moritz Steinschneider:

"In 1836 Steinschneider went to Vienna to continue his studies, and, on the advice of his friend Leopold Dukes, he devoted himself especially to Oriental and Neo-Hebrew literatures, and most particularly to bibliography, which would become his principal focus. His countryman Abraham Benisch and Moravian Albert Löwy also were studying there at the time. In Lowy's room in 1838 they inaugurated among intimate (and lifelong) friends, a proto-Zionist society called "Die Einheit""

en.wikipedia.org/.../Moritz_Steinschneider

[Skinhead-1979]

But why am I even wasting my time... I have been in the business of educating people long enough.

As soon as people become hostile and baseless accusations follow... I know I have shut that person up with facts which cannot be countered.

I deal as good as on a daily basis with Zionists, Nazis and other Racists, Hindu Nationalists, bigots and ignorant people that I've learned how to deal with them properly.

Sorry to have wasted your time, wish you all the best... and take care

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Glad you get it lol

[Radiate143]

In their own religion, they are an exiled people. Jews ≠ Zionist.

[Berethor]

Exiled from Israel, now many Jews has come back to their Ancestral Homeland.

[Radiate143]

@Berethor yeah no but ok

[Skinhead-1979]

@radiate143 That's the issue here... Jewish people are being told this narrative through their religion; but the undeniable fact is that none of the OT's narratives can historically be verified. The OT itself makes references to the Israelite's religion; Gods like 'El' and 'Asherah' are being mentioned. But Israelites society went through an 'Anti-Canaanite' period and during that period the Books of Deuteronomy have been written which have a very clear Anti-Canaanite stance. It is the turning point in Israelite religion from Polytheism to Monotheism; all references to the other, Canaanite Gods, have been altered or removed completely.

A Canaanite God like Ba'al Hadad became an Evil being, a Demon, and is now known as Beelzebub. The Adam and Eve story symbolises the forced divorce of 'Yahweh'... most likely the Canaanite God 'El'... from his wife Asherah. A divorce is being seen valid if deceit is involved; so Eve, Asherah, is being portrait as a deceitful woman and thus the divorce is valid. The OT speaks of 'Burning down the Tree in front of the Temple; A Tree was a symbol linked to Asherah. Then much later on, middle-ages, the narrative of Lilith is being inserted in the 'Adam and Eve' story; Lilith was not one single being, Lilith, or 'Iilu', 'Iilitu' were spirits in the Sumerian and Akkadian cultures. Through Roman and Greek mythology Lilith became a Child-Eating 'Lamia'.

[Skinhead-1979]

All organised religion is being used to control people. I am more than willing to accept there is a God, or maybe even Gods, but that Deity did not write Religion; Humans did that.

The terms Hebrew, Israelite and Jew are being conflated with each other for propaganda purposes; the 3 are not one and the same. Hebrew was a Holy Language spoken by the Israelite Clergy (Israelites spoke Aramaic); an Israelite was an Ethnic and Cultural group identity belonging to the 'Semitic' Ethnic Group (Phoenicians, Akkadians and Arabs also belong to the Semitic Ethnic Group); A Jew is a follower of the Religion now known as Judaism. Judaism was not the religion of the ancient Israelites, that was Yahwism (a cross-over between Polytheism and Monotheism called a Monolatry, with its own 'National God' and Pantheon). Judaism's origins lay in the Babylonian Exile, and Judaism evolved in the Achaemenid Empire (Judaism, same as Christianity and Islam, have been influenced by Zoroastrianism).

It is because of this deliberate conflating of these 3 terms with each other, for propaganda purposes, that we are still having these 'silly' discussions regarding Jerusalem and whether Israel has a *right* to exist.

[Berethor]

@Skinhead-1979 you think that christianity and islam was not having some changes? the Islamic black stone of mecca is from pagan times, judaism started by abraham.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor I know, I am aware.

I do know that the epithet 'Allah' pre-dates Islamic Times; and the Pagan 'Allah' had 3 daughters.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor But the issue is that Zionism has been based on the same False narratives as in the Abrahamic religions (The OT narratives)... the claim that Jewish people deserve a State, which is what Zionism is about, is False.

That Jewish people (and thus Christians and Muslims too) follow narratives which are incorrect is harmless... as I have pointed out, Religion is not to blame here; Religion is Harmless... the danger with Religion lays in what people do with it.

Judaism is being abused by a group of people to realise their goals of Influence and Power: The Zionists. Jewish people are just as much victims as the Palestinians are, despite Israeli being the perpetartors.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor The more Israel oppresses the Palestinians, the more 'Anti-Semitism' will grow as a result of that putting Jewish people in danger.

I don't understand that people, who support Israel, cannot see this.

Do we really want another Holocaust in which millions of Jewish people are being murdered (along millions of other people)?

[Berethor]

@Skinhead-1979 there is a lot of muslim countries, why can't jews can't have a country?

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor A Jewish State was meant to provide safety to Jewish people, right?

How well has that gone so far?

To achieve their perceived safety they have had to expel and oppress another group of people only bringing themselves into greater danger...

I really cannot be more clear...

[Berethor]

@Skinhead-1979 safer then in Nazi Germany, did you hear about Amin al-Husseini?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor In the end... despite my clear support for Palestinians... I just as much care about the people who call themselves 'Israeli'. In the end we are talking about humans... human life. Every human life is valuable.

I do not gloss over Israeli deaths; I do not celebrate them... If it was up to me, which sadly it isn't, it'll all come to an end, Zionism is defeated, there's 1 state in which people who formerly identified as Palestinian and Israeli are living side by side with equal rights.

Now, you may say I am a dreamer; yes, I know I am... but I am really not the only one who think/ feels this way.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor As I have tried to point out, Arabs/ Palestinians are not as bloodthirsty as you think. While there is unquestionably 'War Language', because they have suffered a lot at the hands of the state of Israel, Palestinians and Arab do not hate Jewish people in general, Israeli specifically.

It is why I had made the other post about Israeli and Palestinian kids being able to be friends; we are not born to hate another, hate is being taught. While hatred is most certainly also being taught in some case on the Palestinian side, the documentary focuses on the Israeli side. The Israeli family even refused to go to the opening night of the Documentary; the Palestinian family was there, and the Palestinian girl was really hoping to see her former Israeli friend.

[Berethor]

@Skinhead-1979 you do know that many arabs have israeli citizenship? but israel obviously can't give it to all arabs, because then the country be taken over by islam.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor Yes, Israel does keep a relatively small 'Israeli-Arab' population for Labour purposes. Israeli-Arabs do have the same rights as Israeli, though are often being marginalised. While most are of course Muslim, a lot of them are Christians too. As I have mentioned, most, if not all, Christians in Israel are Arab.

Druze also live in Israel; Druze have also got the same rights as Israel and often have been very close to the Israeli government... depending on where they live; the Druze in occupied Golan Heights are opposed to the Israeli government.

(That town, of which Hezbollah is being accused to have bombed it with a missile but firmly denies it, is a Druze town; opposed to the Israeli government and oppression)

There is also quite s substantial Ethiopian-Jewish community in Israel; the Beta Israel. They worship a non-Talmudic version of Judaism. These Jews are being marginalised and discriminated against.

"obviously can't give it to all Arabs, because then the country be taken over by Islam"

And here you nearly hit the nail a 100% with the hammer on the head:

Israel is meant to be a JEWISH STATE; a state with a JEWISH MAJORITY... That is why the Palestinians are being oppressed, pushed into a 'concentration camp, and murdered in the thousands. Only Genocide can ensure Israel keeps a Jewish Majority. Israeli birth-rates are dropping; more Israeli move out of Israel then take Aliyah (=Home Coming)... this has become even worse after Oct 7th 2023. 500,000 Israeli have left and many are not sure they want to return. The Arab population is increasing... At this rate, Israel will no longer be able to sustain a Jewish majority and thus will cease to be the Zionist wet-dream of a Jewish State.

[Berethor]

Gaza attacked Israel first so I don't care if whole Gaza was burned but it not the case, but you are right that is was silly to give any arab a israeli citizenship, as they want to take over.

en.wikipedia.org/.../2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor No, I am sorry... you couldn't be more removed from the Truth.

This 'conflict' between the Palestinians and Israeli didn't start on the 7th of October 2023 with Operation al Aqsa Flood. Everything which happens, every flare up of hostilities, is a continuation.

Hamas didn't start the confrontation, Hamas is a product of it. The PA, better said its predecessor the PLO, didn't start the conflict either; the conflict didn't even start with Israel independence.

The conflict started when Zionist organisations like Irgun, Haganah and Lehi started their campaign of 'Ethnic Cleansing' in Palestine.

While there is no question about it that Palestinian Resistance has committed some of the most horrific atrocities on Israel; the fact remains that Israel murders far more Palestinians than Palestinians murder Israeli.

On average, outside of armed confrontations, Palestinians kill 1-3 Israeli a year; Israel kills hundreds, if not thousands, of Palestinians. I am sorry, but the numbers don't lie.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor There is the case to be made that Israel has a right to defend itself. Theoretically this is true... but not in the case in which Israel is the oppressor. Even if you would accept that, you have to accept that what Israel is doing is way too excessive. Israel is more than capable of executing targeted operations... Just think about the spectacular execution of Operation Entebbe. Israel is capable of taking a Resistance Commander out in a building of Flats while leaving the floor above and below intact.

So why this completely and senseless murder Israel is executing now? The murder of 1250 Israeli does not warrant the murder of 40,000 Palestinians and wounding hundreds of thousands more while starving the remaining ones.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor Israel is walking with its eyes open into a trap carefully laid by the Palestinian Resistance leadership. Can't you see that Hamas is exposing Israel's War Crimes for everyone to see? Everything Israel is doing, all the horrible atrocities (Yes, Hamas commits them too... I am very honest about that... but they pale in comparison to the Israeli atrocities) can be seen on the news, on Youtube, you name it. It'll be a long time before our governments will give up on Israel, but the general Public Opinion is turning against Israel; this is exactly what Hamas is trying to achieve. They cannot win on the field of battle, I am very realistic about that... Though it must not be ignored that would Hamas be defeated a far more extreme group might rise; Hamas is not just a militant group, 'Hamas' is an idea... call it an ideology if you will; the dream of a Free Palestine. You cannot kill that.
Apartheid South Africa didn't start to collapse due to our governments withdrawing support... some did, as you can now also see happening to Israel: South Africa is at the forefront of criticism against Israel and has dragged Israel in front of the ICC... The Apartheid system collapsed due to the General, World, Population turning against South Africa; our governments only followed suit when they realised the situation could not be salvaged. If Israel is not careful, the same will happen to Israel.

There is only one solution for Israel which will ensure its political and national survival: 2 state solution; give Palestinians their own state. It'll take a long time before the 'wounds' have healed... but just look at many of the other Arab states, normalisation did set in. It's now due to the conflict with the Palestinians that the process has been stopped, but once this conflict has been properly resolved, normalisation will continue.

[Berethor]

If there was ethnic cleansing in Israel then they sure did a bad work at it, you want the killing to be 1-1? jews lives worth more, and jews are stronger so they can beat the enemy more.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor Just look at the numbers... simply the 1,250 Israeli vs 40,000. ... but as I have mentioned, even the annual numbers, which have been recorded for decades, show a big discrepancy between the 2 sides.

Look at how the territory occupied by Israeli expanded from 1948 up to date.

Look at the state and living conditions in Gaza and the Westbank compared to Israeli Cities, Towns and Regions.

Look at the general living standards of Israeli and Palestinians, especially in Gaza and the Westbank.

Who holds all the power? Who has an army with some of the most sophisticated military hardware and equipment? Who has a State, fully equipped with functioning institutions which are well bine funded?

There simply isn't any room for dispute nor comparison... There is no Palestinian State and therefor the Palestinian people, within the borders claimed by Israel, are the responsibility of Israel as long as there is no Palestinian state. Everyone within a state has the right to equal rights... So as long as Israel keeps forcefully removing people from their homes, killing them in their hundreds/ thousands, expel/ isolate them... Israel is committing Genocide.

This isn't even my 'emotional' side, my 'heart' speaking... there's no doubt about it that my 'heart', under the current circumstances, lays with the Palestinians... This is my 'mind' speaking... Of course I feel overwhelmed due to everything which has happened, and is still happened, I can honestly say I do get into tears sometimes; also when I here heart-breaking Israeli stories... but I am very cold when I speak about Numbers, facts on the ground, history... They simply do not lie.

[Berethor]

@Skinhead-1979 40,000? 2 million more to go? they don't care about dying, that's why they keep attacking, and the gaza strip is ander full control of hamas, that's how palestinian state looks, in ramallah where the isreali army was keeping control, things are much better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor Why do you think Palestinians 'allow' themselves to be killed?

They have nothing to lose. I know that feeling all too well, I have had 5 suicide attempts; while my life has of course nowhere near been as miserable as the lives all those Palestinians are being forced to live... This is what despair does to a human, a human mind.

Sacrificing oneself for a greater good is... as you may know... being rewarded in Islam. A 'Martyr' isn't necessarily someone who straps a bomb-belt around his or her waist and blows up an 'enemy' as so many people seem to think... a 'Martyr' is also a nurse who is being killed, by an opposing/ oppressing, force while tending to the wounded.

So that despair coupled with the firm believe that they are being rewarded for their sacrifice drives them to this.

[Skinhead-1979]

@Berethor Your views about how life is in the Westbank, coupled with that of the Palestinian Authority, are false; I am sorry.

While the hopes that a semi-autonomous Palestinian authority would changes things for Palestinians; those hopes got dashed quickly.

While there is no doubt a lot of 'wrong' about Hamas' leadership and form of governing... The PA is corrupt; it's despotic. Mahmoud Abbas need to step down but he refuses that. The PA is also firmly under Israeli control. No, Israel doesn't lead the PA; Israel controls the PA's, and thus also that of Palestinian citizens, funds. It's simply that would the PA not do what Israel demands, no funds will flow too them and they will not be able to 'govern' the Palestinian territories. There are 80,000 security officials linked to the PA who oppress the Palestinian Population just as must as the IDF does through continues Raids... but here's the thing: The al Aqsa Martyr-Brigade, which is the Military Wing of the PLO/ PA, has turned against the leadership of the PA due to its incompetence. Same as in Gaza, there are many 'factions', groups, fighting against the State of Israel and the IDF... but it should stand out the Al Aqsa brigade has turned against its own leadership.

I firmly believe neither the PA nor Hamas should be part of the Palestinian political climate once an agreement has been reached; the PA's time to govern passed a long time ago, and while I do strongly feel Hamas is currently in the best position to continue the armed struggle; I do not feel they should play a role in the political situation which should precede and succeed any kind of agreement between Israel and the Palestinian people.