Can POTUSs constitutionally pardon themselves? Should they? Would congress accept that or bipartisanly impeach him to defend their branch?

[DrPepper12]

If Trump won & ended the 2 DoJ cases against him would that trigger impeachment (if Dems have House)? Would Senate convict if split 50/50? Remember, "high crimes & misdemeanors" are whatever Congress says it is.

Article II, Section 2, Clause 1:

The POTUS... shall have Power to grant Reprieves & Pardons for Offences against the USA, except in Cases of Impeachment.

The power has been recognized by the Supreme Court as quite broad. In the 1886 case Ex parte Garland, the Court referred to the President’s authority to pardon as unlimited except in cases of impeachment, extending to every offence known to the law and able to be exercised either before legal proceedings are taken, or during their pendency, or after conviction and judgment.

Despite the breadth of the President’s authority under the Pardon Clause, the Constitution’s text provides for at least two limits on the power: first, clemency may only be granted for Offenses against the United States, meaning that state criminal offenses and federal or state civil claims are not covered.6 Second, the President’s clemency authority cannot be used in Cases of impeachment.

A full pardon granted by the President and accepted by its subject revents or removes any of the penalties and disabilities consequent upon conviction. In several 19th century cases, the Supreme Court suggested that a pardon broadly obviates all legal guilt of the offender, effectively erasing the crime from existence. Subsequent cases appear to have backed away from this understanding, .

Congress generally cannot substantively constrain the President’s pardon authority through legislation, as the Court has held that the power of the President is not subject to legislative control. Congress can neither limit the effect of his pardon, nor exclude from its exercise any class of offenders. The benign prerogative of mercy reposed in him cannot be fettered by any legislative restrictions.

POTUS has unlimited authority to pardon themselves. Suck it up!

POTUSs CAN do it but would trigger massive resignations, protests & impeachment.

No POTUS would DARE to play stupid games & win stupid prizes.

[blueonblack22]

If you are going to use lawfare then use it for all politicians and political candidates. Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and even the “venerable” Barack Obama all have skeletons in their closets (Obama was behind the fast and furious scandal).

The democrats have opened up Pandora’s box with the Stormy Daniels hush money case against Trump. And of all the legal charges against him this one was by far the weakest too. But it’s no surprise that he got convicted in ultra far left Manhattan New York (with a leftist judge Juan Merchan presiding over the case).

Anyway you spell it this is a very bad look for America. I know liberals are just besides themselves with the idea of Trump being behind bars.

But this has never been done before in American history. It is banana republic insanity. And if Kamala gets elected will she tell her DOJ to lay off Trump? Politically that would be the smart thing to do but I got a feeling she will cave to her radical flank and let them sentence and incarcerate him which is will insanely divide our already polarized country further.

[DrPepper12]

Let's presume for the moment that he did commit the crimes of what he's currently accused of in four jurisdictions. Just as a devil's advocate what would your reply be?

[blueonblack22]

Well do you think that is was pure coincidence that all this happened in THE MIDDLE OF AN ELECTION CYCLE? Why didn’t they indict him in 2021 right after he left office? Why did all four indictments happen in 2023 right when the 2024 election cycle was heating up?

If you hate Trump and want him locked up, fine. But the way the Biden DOJ handled this was so insanely political and obvious it’s made many Americans lose all trust in the legal system. That was NOT impartial “law and justice”. DA Alvin Bragg literally campaigned on “getting Trump” before he even knew what exactly he was going after him for.

Anyway I don’t expect anybody who hates Trump to ever come out and say “although I hate Trump I think the indictments were very wrong”. This dismissive attitude turn makes Trump supporters tone deaf to all the accusations/indictments thrown against him.

It’s really the fault of the mass media of going above and beyond with their obsession and fixation on Trump. They really lost all credibility after fixating on the Mueller investigation.

That doesn’t mean I think Trump is squeaky clean. Not at all. But how can I trust the media and now the legal system when they accuse of him something? How can I believe that’s not politically motivated?

[DrPepper12]

Ok but can he / should he pardon himself?

[blueonblack22]

I’m not sure how he can an elected president serving from a prison cell lol.

But really all the gross animosity for Trump aside, how does it look for America putting a 79 year old former president in prison over a campaign finance violation over a hush money payment that EVERYBODY knew about since 2015 (and Americans elected him anyway in 2016)? If you were from Mars and knew absolutely nothing else about Trump except for that incident in a vacuum, how does it make America look?

Of all the cases filed against him that was by the weakest and most ridiculous.

[blueonblack22]

So to answer question, YES he should be able to pardon himself. It’s not like he hired a hit man to assassinate his political opposition or something.

[blueonblack22]

*answer your question.

[OlderAndWiser]

1. You should always provide a citation when you extensively quote from another source. In this case, you quoted from (I am not shocked, but G@G will not allow me to post the citation. Perhaps you attempted to include the cite and were similarly blocked. More G@G insanity!)

2. Your question asks about conviction if the Senate is split 50/50, but conviction in the Senate requires a ⅔ majority.

[DrPepper12]

You are correct on both counts and thank you. It wouldn't let me put the link in and my humblest apologies regarding the 50-50 vote. TY for pointing that out!

[Anonymous]

Too many Republicans are cultmembers. Impeachment may happen if it's a Democrat House but a senate conviction has no chance. He only didn't pardon himself the first time because it makes him look guilty. That'll no longer be a concern if he were to win again.

[DrPepper12]

That's an excellent point. Being term limited there is nothing to lose other than bad optics for the MAGA party afterwards.

[Kelley1]

If Trump is elected, he will pardon himself. There is no reason not to pardon himself because he cannot be elected again. Furthermore, there is nothing Congress can do about it. Congress may vote to impeach Trump, but they cannot convict.

[DrPepper12]

It appears to be legal, however would you support anyone else being their own judge and jury in any other matter? What would the long-term effects be for the MAGA party?

[Kelley1]

I would not be opposed to undoing convictions obtained against Trump when the Democrats were prosecutors, judges, and juries which was clearly the case with strongly biased prosecutors, judges, and juries. The cases against Trump establishes that Democrats have no honor. That is sad, because when half of more of citizens are totally lacking with honor, our country may soon be a banana republic.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

POTUSs CAN do it but would trigger massive resignations, protests & impeachment.

[DrPepper12]

Do you think 2/3 of the Senate would convict him if he pardoned himself? That's an awful big ask for the MAGA Senators I think...

[hahahmm]

Will be hard for congress to have an opinion if all of the members of congress taking bribes & illegally profiting from insider trading on the stock market get rounded up and treated the same way you or I would be if we were cheating scumbags.

[DrPepper12]

I do agree with you regarding our elected prostitutes as well as a multi-tier justice system but given that is what we have now, how would you address the issue?

[hahahmm]

There is an old saying made by someone much wiser than me: You can't vote your way out of tyranny. That ship has sailed, I think. But a lot of people don't want to believe it.

[Walksbehindtherows]

As a Canadian, I fully support Trump
Note: If Trump wins, please don't democrats try to seek asylum in Canada, we don't want it.

[DrPepper12]

I promise I won't but TBH, I have encourage my children to live abroad, Europe most likely, in the event of Act II of this dystopian tragedy.
Separately, what's the prevailing view if Trudeau was to call a snap election? Do you think he'll make it to October 2025 or will there be a vote of no confidence in the next year? Do you think there's any chance of the NDP coming back?
I am a political science major in history teacher, and one of the most fascinating courses I had ever taken was Canadian history with a particular emphasis on the history of Quebec. I hope you forgive all the questions but anytime I meet a Canadian (happens often enough in New York and as a hockey fan) I always ask this question: Do you think the BQ would have been so ascendant in the mid-90s if it hadn't been for the end of the Cold War?

[Juxtapose]

This is new legal territory but given the malicious prosecution levied against Trump? He has full rights to pardon himself of everything.

After that he should prosecute everybody who went after him.

[DrPepper12]

I appreciate your opinion but I'm just wondering if that's worth the cost in very bad optics and precedent. Would be MAGA party survive this? Would 17 Republican Senators also vote for removal from office?

[Juxtapose]

Trump himself is leaning against doing this because he says the best revenge is success.

I personally would go after these Stalinist fuckers and make an example of them. They should never be able to get away with pulling that type of shit against Trump they have done.

[Drewtate]

Those that abused thr law system might find themselves pursued for preventing the course of justice and misuse of legal powers

[DrPepper12]

I appreciate your opinion and understand where you're coming from. But presuming he did self pardon, would 218 representatives vote to impeach him? Would 67 Senators vote to remove him from office? Would it be worth the long-term damage and optics to the MAGA party?

[exitseven]

When Trump wins all the charges will magically disappear into the thin air from whence they came.

[DrPepper12]

Is that worth the massive cost in horrific optics and precedent? Assuming he does make the federal charges disappear, Congress could construct that as high crimes and misdemeanors and impeach him anyway. Do you think a self-pardon would cause 17 Republican senators to remove him from office? Actually I'm putting the card before the horse there! Do you think 218 Representatives would impeach him?

[exitseven]

He won;t make anything disappear. they will all be overturned on appeal and the democrats will be out of power so no new fake indictments will be made.

[DrPepper12]

Nope

[exitseven]

These charges have all but fallen apart now. After the election, there will be no interest in moving any of them forward. They were just supposed to ruin Trump's candidacy. That has failed miserably and Trump actually went up in the polls and raised more money with every fake indictment.

[DrPepper12]

Still wrong.

[exitseven]

it was wrong to weaponize the justice system to interfere with a presidential election.

[DrPepper12]

Presume he's guilty. Now what? It's a thought experiment. Give it an HONEST try.

[exitseven]

@DrPepper12 Ask yourself this question, Would any of these indictments ever happened if President Trump decided not to run for president again?

[DrPepper12]

Yes. Answer the question. Presume he's guilty in the federal cases. How should DoJ of opposite party handle it?

[exitseven]

but he is not guilty, This would never have happened if we had a fair justice dept.

[DrPepper12]

So much for thought experiment... Weird.

[gatixek710]

You’d think the democrats would learn that weaponizing the justice system against political parties is a bad idea, but here we are.

[DrPepper12]

Thank you for your opinion and I appreciate your point of view. I was hoping to get some opinions on if he actually did self pardon. What would be the consequences for MAGA party? Would 218 representatives impeachment? Would 67 Senators vote to remove him from office? Would this precedent be a really bad or really good idea?