Do you know about the Holodomor?

[RedInnocent69]

When Stalin starved an estimated 4 million Ukrainians to death in 1932-33

Updates

1 y

Slava Ukraini!

[MisterWack]

I did know about it, it is upsetting history though I would like to critique your use of “Slava Ukraini!” while showcasing a vicious part of human history that isn’t even 100 years old….

Russia’s vile leader Vladimir Putin ever since the unlawful occupation of Ukrainian Territory has stolen Ukrainian artifacts from museums, mass graves of innocent unarmed civilians, children ripped from their homes to be reeducated in Russian way of life, and horrific atrocities toward captured Ukrainian soldiers…. North Korea has recently sent boots on the ground to help aide Russia in their invasion campaign on Ukraine, Iran has been supplying a steady stream of missiles as well as China sending drones. Make no mistake that appeasement is not the solution, standing strong with the Western Powers that believe in Democratic values will prevail Democracy against the Dictator Communist forces.

[KrakenAttackin]

Yeah, another fine example of Communism that liberals live so much.

Let's take it a step further. How brutal did Stalin have to be to starve millions to death in the Ukraine when the Ukraine was called the "bread basket of the USSR"?

Also, Stalin drew the lines that created the Ukraine, which was a big mistake. When you draw lines you give people an identity to which to cling. The Russians have always seen the Ukraine as a fundamental part of larger Russia. Obviously the Ukranians don't agree with this.

Two things strike me about Ukraine (aside from busty, hot women): Ukraine is on the direct flank of Russia which makes Russia jittery with instability, especially considering relatively recent history. Second, in seeing the combat footage it strikes me how incredibly rich the Ukranian soil is. These are two things worth fighting for.

[Danzigdawson]

@KrakenAttackin No liberal likes Stalin you dumbass. He was a psychotic, bloodthirsty dictator, just like Hitler.

[RedInnocent69]

@Danzigdawson didn’t you know? Liberals are commies 😂

[KrakenAttackin]

@Danzigdawson Than why do liberals seek the same structure Stalin created?

[Danzigdawson]

@KrakenAttackin Because they don't. The idea that liberals are all about marxism and stalinism is yet another stupid belief that comes from far-right propaganda. Marxism is outdated as an ideology and leninism is even less relevant. Stalinism and Maoism? Bitch please, it's 2024, not 1968.

What happened —ever since the right stopped going to college and following the news— is that a large number of philosophers and theorists criticized marxism and over time, it fell out of favor. The same happens all the time for every kind of ideology you could think of. Academia is an ever-changing discourse of varied, often conflicting ideas. No 'truth' is absolute. Skepticism and openess of mind are the rule. Conservatism is usually not really considered because it's an outdated system based on artificial things like hierarchy. All it has to offer, intellectually speaking, is a narrow and binding view of the world. That's why the more you learn, the more it appears clear that conservatism is limiting and irrelevant in most situations. To the outsider far-right raging moron, that's "marxist indoctrination". To academics, it's just exploring beyond the indoctrination of conservatism.

[Danzigdawson]

"Cultural Marxism" is a fear tactic to get the right all riled up, all the while not realizing that they're the ones who are being indoctrinated by actual fake news, baseless claims and blatant lies dumped everywhere on the web by uneducated turds or dishonest people who are in it for the money, or for some other form of personal gain.

The far-right depict American liberals as "communists" or "socialists" because they want universal healthcare. That's not "socialism". It's just common sense. Not having universal healthcare and other welfare programs is just plain stupid. No wonder the US is so plagued with crime, poverty, violence and hardcore, religious conservatism.

Be really honest here: is Canada communist? Is Brazil? Is Japan? Spain? France? The U. K? Israel? Italy? Putin's Russia? Portugal? Australia? New Zealand?

All of these countries provide universal healthcare. Do you actually believe they're all socialist states who are on the verge of turning into communist dictatorships?

[KrakenAttackin]

@Danzigdawson Funny how the globalist have you dancing in the end of a string, spewing talking points, and willing to destroy this country. Take a look at the UK, clowns like you want the same for the U. S... not gonna happen

[Danzigdawson]

@KrakenAttackin As I explained, academia is characterized by the willingness to challenge old beliefs, find new ways of thinking, consider complex thought by taking many different points of view into account.

Conservatism is one point of view. One truth. False security, false certainty, false strenght. Want to prove me wrong? You can. Sign up for a class about basic research methodology, read a whole lot, including the authors that you hate, try to see if you're there is some logic and some sense to your way of thinking.

Until then, you're just another clown spewing talking points, just like the one you think I am. The difference between you and me is that I'm willing to ask myself if I'm indoctrinated or brainwashed. You just assume that you're not.

[KrakenAttackin]

@Danzigdawson Academia in modern times is perhaps the most closed minded of institutions. I have spent of time in formal college and their tolerance for actual "diversity" of thought is non-existent.

[Danzigdawson]

@KrakenAttackin It's pretty clear that you didn't.

[KrakenAttackin]

@Danzigdawson A brilliant retort.

[Danzigdawson]

@KrakenAttackin It is. It takes at least some knowledge of what a college student's experience actually constitutes —when it comes to discussion and debate— to come to the conclusion that you've most likely never attented college for more than a few weeks.

[KrakenAttackin]

@Danzigdawson Bro, I have a bachelor's and an MBA.

[xcheerleader_jessx]

No i do not. However, based on someone else's answer who is trying to focus on who killed more people that's silly to me. Any government that brings death to its people IS evil.

[LeatherDame]

Yup, the only person who managed to kill more people than Stalin was Mao. Centralization of power is bad news bears for everyone.

[MK1997]

Hitler killed 60 million

[LeatherDame]

Hitler killed about 11 million in camps, we don’t count war casualties.

Which is less than Stalin or Mao by a factor of 3-5x. Mao killed 30-50+ million and Stalin killed 25+ million.

[MK1997]

Imaginary numbers

Hitler killed millions of civilians outside of camps.

[LeatherDame]

They’re not imaginary and the 11 million includes the non-Jews killed in the camps already. Hitler was nasty, Stalin and Mao held much more power for much longer and did far more damage to their people.

[MK1997]

Prove the numbers.

And I am talking about civilians, not Jews. Germans killed millions of civilians in Central and Eastern Europe, some in western Europe

[bobby_bush_eater]

@MK1997 did you just attribute WW2 to one man?

Who declared war on Germany? Who sided with the Russian communists then couldn't resist them?

Pretty sure it was Britain...

[MK1997]

@bobby_bush_eater no I am just counting real deaths that happened you and others try to ignore

[LeatherDame]

You’re counting war dead in the 50-80 million figure, in which case Churchill could be said to have also killed around half... which is why we aren’t counting war dead.

Hitler’s camps killed about 6 million Jews and about 5 million other people so 11 million total. Stalin killed 25 million in starvation campaigns and Mao killed 30-50 million by sheer incompetence in a centrally managed economy.

[NewWaves]

@MK1997 can you show us your sources and how those numbers were counted up, from where, what were the countries' population numbers at the time.

[MK1997]

@NewWaves look up casualties of ww2

[bobby_bush_eater]

@MK1997 I literally said you attributed all WW2 casualties to Hitler and how that doesn't make sense, your response "no I am just counting real deaths that happened you and others try to ignore" now, right above me, you just cited that as your source.

You don't know anything about history except broad statements and numbers clearly.

Who declared war on Germany? Why did the allies side with communists they hated?

Germany started a war on the pretext of defending Poland which was actually a complex land argument due to the history of Prussia and Poland but sure Britain can just interfere for their behalf then literally abandon all Poles to the absolute hell they endured from both sides in WW2 just so the Brits had their pretext to fight. It's bad when Germany does it but fine when Britain does?

I am not pretending Hitlers regime didn't commit atrocities, he was a lunatic, the Germans were engaged in imperialistic conquest, however the notion that the allies and Britain had no choice and take 0 responsibility for the aftermath is horse shit. Britain's intentions were shown when they allied with the USSR who also invaded Poland...

You should do some research on books to read, not Wikipedia.

[MK1997]

@bobby_bush_eater you are off topic, look at the casualties in Europe caused by the Germans

[LeatherDame]

We are comparing different figures. War dead counts for BOTH sides so isn’t a very good metric.

Deaths by policy are more clear cut:
30+ million deaths by starvation by mismanagement of the CCP/Mao

www.asianstudies.org/.../

66+ million for Stalin (Solzhenitsyn’s numbers, some put it down around 20 million)

Hitlers camps: 11-17 million

www.statista.com/.../#topicOverview

Even by these conservative estimates, Mao killed 3x what Hitler did and Stalin between 1-3x what Hitler managed (though he had far longer to do it to be fair).

War dead from ww2 was 60-75 million, 1/3rd were civilians. This counts both sides though and is a poor metric for how many deaths an individual caused (since the war was somewhat inevitable and multiple sides partook). The vast majority were also Russians who started on one side, finished on the other and then became their own nightmare.

For reference, Pol Pot killed 1-3 million out of the ~6 million population in the Cambodian genocide.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4

This isn’t discounting that Hitler was a homocidal maniac, he was, he was just less efficient because he hadn’t centralized power to the same degree communism does implicitly.

[MK1997]

Deaths by policy just shows one side. It is ignorant to ignore all the murders carried out on civilians. It is clear for example most of civilians deaths in Soviet Union were caused by Hitler as a result of mass murders. We know that over million people starved in Leningrad due to German blockage. The picture is far greater than you want to see. You are nitpicking.

[LeatherDame]

We literally explained why we weren’t counting the war dead but since you insist:
60 million /2= 30
1/3rd of 30 million is 10 million.

Even including war casualties, Hitler still falls behind Mao.

Don’t forget that Mao and Stalin were also I WW2 and we could add every German killed on the eastern front or Japanese killed in Manchuria to that tally and blow Hitler out of the water again.

It’s simply not even close.

[bobby_bush_eater]

@MK1997 what about the absolute atrocities the USSR got away with in Poland, and Eastern Germany?

The allies abandoned those people to suffer in the USSR but Britain and France started the war on the pretext they were protecting Poland. WW2 is a great hypocrisy of teaching in the USA/West, it was not good vs bad, you consistently over simplify what were very complex events and history.

[DryGermanGuy]

Absolutely. And I recognize it being in Putin’s war playbook in the form of destroying Ukraine‘s energy infrastructure.

[DrPepper12]

Yes. Horrific genocidal policy of incompetence & authoritarianism

[NewWaves]

Yes I do know. I watched quite a few documentaries on it. It was awful.

[MK1997]

Yes I do.

[RedInnocent69]

Your family’s not Ukrainian though, are they?

[MK1997]

No they are not

[RedInnocent69]

Being Eastern European do you consider yourself pro or anti Russian?

[MK1997]

Pro...

[RedInnocent69]

Interesting. Any particular reason?

[MK1997]

Just politics

But socially and culture wise I am not for either