Are illegal aliens criminals for entering our country illegally?

[Pterodon]

Yes

No

[Syntosi]

Yes? No? Maybe? Its complicated.

First of all, there are circumstances where it is allowed to enter a country using illegal means, including people smuggling. More specifically this is for asylum applicants who have this legal exemption because of international laws giving them protection.

Beyond that we need to start digging into what a criminal is and what laws are. You do not automatically become a criminal because you broke a law, innocent until proven guilty and all that. Taken to the extreme this also means that even if you are proven to have broken a law in court the judge or jury can still choose not to convict you for it

And then we have another layer on top of this which simply asks.. "Is this a stupid law?"

Normally we legislate against things that brings harm or threatens society or the government. Illegal immigration by itself does not really do any of this. Walking across the imaginary line in the sand does not impact the lives of anyone as such. There is of course a whole new set of issues such as taxes and such but that is not strictly related to them crossing an imaginary line in the sand.

So yeah.. Crossing the border against the law might be legal, it might not be enforced and it might also be a stupid law in the first place. It is overall a complicated problem that we invented because we like to make the world a worse place or whatever.

[Pterodon]

No it isn’t gray. It’s black white yes or no. Choose a side

[Syntosi]

You are asking me to choose "yes" or "no" on a legal question? Do you even understand the law? That is literally not how it works.

[Pterodon]

Yeah it is

[Syntosi]

No it isn't. The whole point of having judges and juries is that you need to apply the "human element" to any judgement for it to be considered justice. Boiling it down to a simple "yes" or "no" is unlawful.

[Pterodon]

Are they or are they not criminals for entering illegally? Yes or no?

[Syntosi]

What do you do when reality refuses to simplify to your liking?

[Pterodon]

It’s always that simple. If this had been my yard they jumped the fence on I’d have every right to start shooting.

[Syntosi]

What if the police jumped your fence, would you start shooting then?

[Pterodon]

Why would they? Then ain’t police ignoring our law

[Syntosi]

I dont give a shit for the reason, this is a hypothetical scenario. The police jumped your fence for reasons unknown, would you start shooting?

[Pterodon]

Nope. I like police

[Syntosi]

"It’s always that simple." - Pterodon, man who answers both "Yes" and "No".

[Kingofkings1992]

@Syntosi there’s no shades of gray. Entering a country illegally makes you a criminal. Period.

[Syntosi]

@Kingofkings1992 Being convicted in a court of law makes you a criminal. Innocent until proven guilty and all that, and as I already explained there are protections for people who for example apply for asylum.

Please do yourself a favor and actually read up before replying. It would spare me so much time repeating myself and trying to educate another bumbling fool.

[Pterodon]

It’s been established they’re not running from anything they just want a better life. That’s not reason for asylum

[Syntosi]

Literally does not matter. International laws makes no distinction for how valid their claims of Asylum is. If you apply for Asylum then you automatically get legal protection for the method of entry you had into the country.

[Pterodon]

Not anymore.

[Syntosi]

Putting aside how Trump has no control over international laws, this just screams of you wanting to criminalize something for the sake of your own bias. You need help dude, thats not healthy.

[Pterodon]

No we don’t have to recognize international law. It has no teeth. We choose to do it not that we have to

[Syntosi]

Do you think countries chooses to follow international laws because they want to? They do it because it is the most beneficial and profitable for themselves. Enforcement is actually fairly simple. If you break an international law then that give every other country in the world an excuse to screw over your country in any interaction and negotiation.

Call it an "Idiot tax" if you wish.

[Pterodon]

They already were screwing us under Biden

[Syntosi]

Well, prepare to be double screwed then. Especially since most countries figured out how to manipulate Trump during his first presidency.

[Pterodon]

No they didn’t

[Syntosi]

Yes they did. If you for example wanted to ask Trump for a favor then you sent your diplomat and booked a number of the most expensive rooms in one of his hotels as a means to put money into Trumps pockets. The more money you poured in, the more Trump would let you screw over USA in the coming negotiations. It was a very transactional deal where you got what you paid for.

[Pterodon]

Not true I don’t believe anything out of your liberal mouth

[Syntosi]

www.npr.org/.../foreign-officials-750-000-dollars-trump-hotel-dc

You can look it up yourself. Its not like they were trying to hide it, the foreign countries literally dont care if you discover that they were bribing your president since that becomes Trumps problem and not theirs.

[NaultD]

You have to go through due process with a jury to determine that.

To skip this arguis process puts everyone in danger. 100 miles of land and sea border is called a constitution free zone for a reason. Feds can jump in whenever they want.

As I understand this you want feds to have universal power of throwing people out of the country? How do you determine where? Political inconvenient activists end up in countries bigoted to said activists?

[Pterodon]

If you jumped my fence in my yard I’d have reason to start shooting why didn’t Biden shoot?

[NaultD]

1 you don't. This is why razor wire was regarded bad.

2 don't get me started on self defense in a home. I was a jury member fighting tooth and nail for a guy and ultimately learned self defense is class based. Your land lord touching your bed inches from your wife in tears scared to death. LL Throwing death threats left and right drunk in a red gun state. You got to have a few million to protect your own against even against scumbag slumlords who are of higher economic class then yourself.

After saying that to myself of course migrates illigal crossing is a lower economic class. My question to you is they of being lower economic class deserve human rights?

[Pterodon]

Bullshit it’s state based.

[NaultD]

I'm assuming you're saying "class base."

I was the anti gun leftist in a room of boomers who somehow had perfect knowledge of any potential attack.

Unless you own the land you are subject and basically a slave to any one higher in economic class. We ask the judge is this contract legally bidding that the defense have castle doctrine rights on the killing site. The whole court. judge, defense, and state representative all recognizes the defense castle doctrine being applicable but I'm fighting boomers old folk in a red state going nope don't care. I lost my shit over this kyle rittenhouse can open carry a rifle he dosen't own in a park lot he has zero relationships with and cut through a left leaning protest jerking off someone steps on him to muder till someone does and kills someone gets millionaires to defend him and someone I'm responsible for as a peer can't defend his own girlfriend in their own bed.

I'm fucking furious about it.

[NaultD]

I couldn't figure out or put to words it was class base bias. it still pissed me off to my very core.

[NaultD]

I'll say this much it help me reinforce my fundamental belief. We are only as strong as our weakest point.

By targeting the lowest economic class to death camps let's be honest. Whos fucking next? You got an extra million to throw around?

[sage2021]

I mean, your question even says the word illegal so what part of the word illegal don't you understand?

[RSav4013]

The definition of a criminal is "a person who has committed a crime." So by definition, the answer is yes because it is illegal to enter the country without following immigration law.

[msc545]

Technically yes, but it is or at least was a minor crime until the right wing made a huge issue out of it. The right wing is basically racists who are mostly afraid to identify as racists and so this use this "serious crime" as an excuse to rage against immigrants instead of just admitting to their racism.

[exitseven]

Yes, there are statutes that specify that illegal entry into the country is a crime.

[Anonymous]

breaking in and entering is already a crime so yes

[worldscolide]

Yes, it's literally a felony

[Anonymous]

Yes and they should be removed

[Flower7]

Yes, of course.

[Agape93]

Yeap

[Anonymous]

They are tourists.

[seeyounexttuesday]

by definition.