Disobedient Protesters or Patriotic Heroes?

[mobiusforniner]

Helmuth Hubener disagreed with the political ideologies of 1940s Germany. He listened to radio messages from outside media sources and distributed pamphlets around his home town speaking against the government. He was arrested and beheaded via guillotine, 27 October 1942. He was 17 years old.

Sophie Scholl, originally a member of Hitler's Youth, promoted peace. She was a school teacher. She spoke out against the government oppression and injustice on minority groups. She was outspoken against violence and racism. She was arrested and beheaded via guillotine, 22 February 1943. She was 21 years old.

Both were active church members. Helmuth was a member of the LDS (Mormon) Church. He violated church policy at the time - which was to follow the "law of the land". He was excommunicated following his beheading. Sophie was a Lutheran.

Were they disobedient political dissidents funded by far left extremism? Or were they guided by their moral commitment, even in the face of extreme adversity?

Here are their faces.

Helmuth Hubener

Sophie Scholl

[lightbulb27]

Wow, that first one... hero

Wow the second... hero

What incredible smarts and guts to look outside the current system, to go against it... and hold their ground, in the face of a being separated, cast out, and a frightening death. How awful!

Amazing post, I hadn't heard of them. This part of history is really mind blowing. I pray to God we don't end up back there, in all that confusion and conflict.

God bless those two and the so many others...

This is why we must always remain vigilant to the standards the USA has in it's constitution, I'd assume others... freedom of speech and expression, freedom to protest government and the flag, etc..

We cannot become sick in order to save ourselves.

[mobiusforniner]

Thank you.

For Sophie Scholl, even the executioner was impressed by her integrity and bravery. God, she was only 21 years old.

[mobiusforniner]

And for Helmuth Hubener, his church which - proclaims to follow Christ and is the "one true church" - did absolutely nothing to save him. Worse, he was excommunicated and only AFTER the war, when history determined who was "good" or "bad"; did the church reinstate his membership.

[lightbulb27]

It's mind boggling how people and especially churches can become so twisted and sick. Frankly, were there again, in various ways... we are thoroughly corrupt from Christ, but not directly murdering its members at the moment.
Some people once burnt people alive to rid them of evil spirits... e. g. they had a terrible virus that caused temporary deleriousness and were termed "witches".
"Humans" all so often are far far worse than other animals...
It's good to be aware, so we can remain vigiliant for it's written...
"the devil goes around like a roaring lion".

[Chazmatazz269]

They weren’t “far left”. The far left was the government. Literally the National Socialist Workers Party. At no time since Christianity became the most prevalent religion on Earth has it been associated with progressive values.
The Nazis were fascist left ideologues. Those who opposed them were moderates and conservatives.
Here’s a fun way to compare and contrast Adolf’s worldview with that of modern liberals.

https://youtu.be/Ly1cPYSqgR4?si=t9vRhVWt5PIkxKLL

[mobiusforniner]

Nice try. The Nazi's were fascists who promoted extreme nationalism and corporatism. They were very much anti socialist and anti communist.

Also, you didn't answer my question.

[Chazmatazz269]

You are grossly misinformed. The Nazi party was SOCIALIST. Corporatism IS communism, which just means the state owns the means of production. Hitler literally rose to power under the promise of taking the wealth and economic power away from the Jewish people. Redistribution of wealth is a leftist concept. Nationalism and fascism can be practiced by left or right.

[mobiusforniner]

So how do you answer my question? Are they criminals worthy of death, or were they saints promoting for a better world?

[Chazmatazz269]

Neither. It’s pure ignorance to declare that anything is all good or all bad. That’s the height of tribalism and hypocrisy.
They’re just people. Most likely doing what they think is right, like most people do. Whether they were right, wrong or indifferent changes over time, based entirely upon who is in charge of writing and rewriting history.
Morality is 100% subjective.

[mobiusforniner]

So what I’m hearing is, you think obedience to one’s belief is more important than morality

[Danzigdawson]

@chazmatazz269 The nazis weren't socialists, you dumbfuck.

[mobiusforniner]

@Danzigdawson thank you. Hitler hated socialists and communists. Anyone who’s read mein kampf knows this. I suspect his response is meant to somehow justify the moral actions of the two individuals in my post. They were opposing “socialist leftist” policy so therefore they are “good”. In reality, these two individuals were opposed to far RIGHT ideologies. And to label them heroes when only aligned with one’s personal political beliefs gets to the core of why I’m even asking this question in the first place.

[Danzigdawson]

@mobiusforniner Damn right. That's a trendy subject within the right-wing discourse right now. They all imagine how orgasmic it would be for them if they could somehow manage to pin nazism as a left-wing movement.

One of the most cited fuckers who embrace that fantasy is an "academic" (a fraud) with a youtube channel named TIKhistory. His secret: strip down the definition of socialism and make it vague enough so that it can fit. Example: a computer is a useful tool that works on electricity. A bench drill press is also a useful tool that works on electricity. Therefore, both are the same thing.

[lightbulb27]

funny!:)

[Rosexøxø]

I haven’t checked up on the news recently, so for that I won’t participate in this specific question, but I appreciated how well constructed this is, and the additional inclusion of the well deserved, and rightfully given, recognition, for these two amazing people. It’s just a powerful and heart moving post. Thank you.

[Rosexøxø]

After rereading a second time I realize you never included anything with the news but I know this question is using historical people and events to imply a message for current political events. BUT

For the the question in the title,
I say:

Heroes.

For the question in the last paragraph, I say: guided by moral commitment.

[mobiusforniner]

@Rosexøxø you’re correct. In all honesty, likely no one has ever heard of these two people. We say they’re heroes here but people who do the same now, may not be- depending on their political beliefs. The purpose of my question is to intentionally explore morality in parallel with political ideology.

[mobiusforniner]

@Rosexøxø and thank you for having an open mind to see the uncomfortable reality inside my question while also recognizing and honoring people - children even - who gave their lives in belief of something better

[Rosexøxø]

@mobiusforniner no problem! And thank you; I think you had a great idea with posing this question. I’m also surprised by the results in the comments.

[FreyaRed]

Deluded fools. You don't piss against the win and national socialism was a lot of wind.

[mobiusforniner]

So, do what exactly? Go with the status quo even if you know it is wrong?

That would be an unprincipled coward.

[FreyaRed]

They died because of an ideology. It was a pitiful reason to die for.

[mobiusforniner]

Okay. What would you do if you are commanded to do something wrong?

[DryGermanGuy]

If 80 years after the well-documented events some people still can't determine who was on the right side of history and who wasn't, there really isn't much hope left for them.

[mobiusforniner]

@DryGermanGuy I have hope. But the responses here are actually quite terrifying.

[AngryCarl2]

They stood up for their beliefs, even at the cost of their own lives. They were against the abuses of the Nazi regime. I'd say they were heroes. Not that they changed anything.

[mobiusforniner]

One man or woman cannot change the world. But one man or woman can make a difference.

[Rosexøxø]

@mobiusforniner amen to that

[Avicenna]

If leftists think they are heroically resisting Nazis when they attack federal law enforcement who are doing their jobs within the law or any of the other illegal shit they do, they’re completely delusional.

[mobiusforniner]

I didn’t talk about attacking federal law enforcement. I’m asking if the actions of these two individuals in particular are either right or wrong to you.

[Avicenna]

Is that a serious question?

[mobiusforniner]

Yes, why not? Unless of course you have difficulty answering

[Avicenna]

LOL, I'm a descendant of German Holocaust survivors, so what do you think?

[Rosexøxø]

@Avicenna context matters and has to be considered because laws aren’t always by default good. USUALLY they are, but a few have tried to exploit the use of laws for their own malevolent purposes and gain. You say officers and law as if that’s enough. I mention Nuremberg laws and wehrmacht. What if it’s the law to kill others? To resist such laws is not heroic? Or at least morally applaudable? That’s all I’m saying. I’m not speaking specifically on current forces today, but your message has to be re-evaluated and more defined. Because to just say the title of officer and upholding the law doesn’t make them saints. So it’s not a strong argument. Also apologies for your family. #NeverForget

And I wish you both well also. 💯

[mobiusforniner]

@Avicenna you still didn’t answer my question.

[Avicenna]

@Rosexøxø: I agree context matters, and in the current circumstances, the ICE agents are enforcing laws that were passed by bipartisan legislators in a democratic society and government, laws that do not violate the Constitution and do not violate natural law, for that matter. So that is the context for the contemporary discussion. In fact, those attacking federal law enforcement are not just lawbreakers trying to prevent ilegal invaders from being deported, i. e., receiving the standard consequences for their actions in a democratic society following its democratically-passed laws by a democratically-elected legislature in a free and democratic society.

No matter how many distractions or misdirects the supporters of the illegals employ, their completely false analogy falls completely flat. No country that refuses to protect its borders and deport invaders will survive.

[Avicenna]

So, in a nutshell, those attempting to protect the illegal invaders of the US and other countries are not heroes and they are not moral, either.

[mobiusforniner]

Wasn’t that what the Nazis were doing? Deporting (and in progressive stages, murdering) people they didn’t feel belonged to Germany?

[Avicenna]

Are you saying that the illegals have a right to be in the US?

[mobiusforniner]

No.

But I find it terribly ironic how you’d consider people who’d advocate protecting life would be “amoral”, even if that meant defending the lives of your deceased ancestors, simply because the state declared them “invaders”.

You’re no better than

[mobiusforniner]

*no better than those who persecuted the Jews

[Rosexøxø]

@Avicenna thank you for providing more context along with your opinion. Also I agree about the need for order and keeping respect for the idea of law and regulation, instead of letting it be broken and invaluable. But I’d add we have to ensure the wrong laws that bring harm and wrong instead of good, to not be enforced to start with. If there was a law that said it was okay to kill people who have done nothing wrong. That law should not be respected and should be removed. That is all I will say on the matter.

As for deportation. I wish there was a better way of going about it- not avoiding the value of human life, but also respecting policy in place to keep other citizens safe.

So each case should be reviewed instead of them 100% staying or 100% being “banished.” Someone should walk some of those people through the steps to stay in America and as a citizen, while also receiving any background check or examinations to ensure they’re not sick people to begin with, and allowed within.

Furthermore if they were to wrongfully imprison/enslave/ or kill them, then it would be a clear violation. I wouldn’t support any behavior like that toward human life.

[mobiusforniner]

@Rosexøxø Concur. I do not know if you're in the US. But I know people who already question whether the Hispanics doing lawn maintenance or painting houses are "legal". We have programs encouraging neighbors to turn in such people, for no other reason than their "looking" like an illegal immigrant. What's next? Asians? Blacks? If the law requires us to turn in people based only on suspicion of one's skin color, where does it end?

[Anonymous]

They were simply moral people.

I don't think they were working for the far left, but even that would have been better than the far right (nationalism, racism, religious fanaticism, ethnic extremism).

[mobiusforniner]

Yes. Morality is independent of politics.

I add the part about "far left" intentionally, because the government at the time labeled any dissident as such, which promoted their arrest and execution. I want to draw parallels with current events. Can we call Helmuth or Sophie heroes here, while also condemning someone today for doing the same?

[Opinion Owner]

I agree, morality and ethics are independent of politics, they can be called heroes.

[Jackblue]

In every argument first person to call their opponent a nazi loses, that is what I was taught.

[mobiusforniner]

At no point have I labeled anyone a Nazi here. I’m asking if these two individuals - who were in fact opposing the Nazis - did so for better or for worse.

Unless you’re insinuating they’re losers?

[beefcakebradybatson]

THE LATTER !!!

[mobiusforniner]

Thank you. I’m curious because of other responders- do you think moral obligation demands some kind of political affiliation? Can one be either a liberal or conservative, or whatever- and be moral?

[Anonymous]

They were criminals

[mobiusforniner]

So, despite their moral implications of promoting peace and speaking out against oppression, you believe they deserved the consequence?

[Opinion Owner]

Yes.

[mobiusforniner]

wow. Okay then. Thanks for your honesty.

[mobiusforniner]

As a juxtaposition, do you also believe Jesus was a criminal?

Because Jesus actively protested against theological and political philosophies of his time. Your own response would also suggest Jesus was a criminal. I mean, curiously enough, He was also executed.

[Opinion Owner]

Yes he was.

[mobiusforniner]

Interesting. So what is “right” in your mind?

[Opinion Owner]

Whatever the State orders. I don't care if its Communist, Nazi or Buddhist, the State is God.

[mobiusforniner]

I don't believe you're serious, but let's entertain the thought.

Why do you say the state is god?

What if the state orders something against all moral conscience? Would you still go along with it?

[Opinion Owner]

The State always has reason for the things it does. My grandfather was an SA member, while my father served in the Volkspolizei of the DDR.

They taught me the individual matters nothing compared to the State.

[mobiusforniner]

Thanks for sharing your background. That is interesting, even if I don't agree. For sake of argument, if the State directed you to kill a family member, even your child - would you do it?

[Anonymous]

depends on their political views

[mobiusforniner]

Does advocating for peace and anti racism require a political stance to be morally right?

[Rosexøxø]

@mobiusforninervfor this specifically worded question, I say no. Morality doesn’t require political affiliation to be upheld, valued, acknowledged, respected and expressed.

[mobiusforniner]

@Rosexøxø concur.