In a way, yes. The majority of native American tribes werenât territorial. They were migratory. They followed the herds and found certain regions more plentiful with sustaining flora for foraging. The more peaceful tribes had to avoid the minority of territorial warring tribes as well as other predators and rugged, unforgiving lands. Even the territorial tribes didnât really think of the land as theirs. They were just willing to fight for control of lands that they valued. Many lesser animal species do the same thing. Fighting for the best territory isnât an exclusive human trait, let alone some unfathomable colonialist anomaly. So Europeans discovered the Americas, many agreeable natives who were quite willing to share the land and a minority of them who were significantly less amenable. They all but wiped out the more aggressive tribes, and forced the rest to accept less valuable plots of land as well as greatly reducing their ability to migrate for food, supplies and traditions. Itâs well documented that many native tribes didnât practice ownership the same way Europeans did. The term âindian giverâ comes from colonistsâ gross misunderstanding of how natives presented things of value. Very little is âmineâ or âyoursâ, most things are âoursâ. Similarly, some tribes became jaded about how their new neighbors took whatever they pleased and rarely offered fairly in kind. That said, there was a great deal of trading going on. Europeans changed the native economy a great deal, and vice versa. So not everything was flat out âstolenâ, but itâs fair to say that the gift of grift was stronger among the fair-skinned. Again, and this canât be stressed enough for the mouth breathing leftist nimrods, FIGHTING over territory is primal. Itâs observed in more species than not, particularly in most mammals and almost all primates. Itâs literally the law of nature. Thatâs not a copout. We are obligated to exercise the better nature of our civilized society as a matter of morality. But when examining our past, comparing it to our best efforts now is nothing short of willful ignorance. Generally itâs recognized as a childish attempt to fabricate a sense of moral authority. That, for the record, is not the exclusive domain of the left. They are definitely outmatching moderates and conservatives in that way lately though. More people demanding that they put up or shut up will likely bring that nonsense to a swift end though. Like the Tongvas challenging Billie Eilish to give up her home to them. Or you can tell your loudmouth neighbor to stop insisting that you support illegal immigrants until they personally give up their property and worldly belongings to demonstrate how important that value system is to them. Theyâll âbut, but, but!!!â and call you racist at first. But theyâll likely reflect on their idiocy in private and shut up about it as soon as they realize youâre not as dumb as they are.
I'm more inclined to say it was purchased or conqured.
I mean I feel sort of bad for the Native Americans that sided with the south during the civil war... they wanted to keep their slaves and decided to side with the side that lost. Too bad so sad, that got them moved out for the most part and no more slaves for them.
History is brutal like that. Now kids go to school and get taught about how we shit all over them, but I gurantee they didn't teach much about why... bet most of these kids didn't even know they had slaves. So they have this one-sided knowlege or viewpoint and come to the conclusion that it was just evil white men that stole the land. And maybe that is partially true in some cases, but history isn't that clean cut.
It sort of reminds me of that Asian Comedian dude that was saying Korens never owned slaves, only for AI to correct him and teach him how they owned more slaves for longer than almost everyone else. It was hilarious. But that's what I'm talking about... he was never taught that. He assumed his people were just poor innocent people that the Japanese slapped around and enslaved and he was never taught any of that other stuff.
I donât want you to think Iâm criticizing your question or your topic. Climate change doesnât matter because the people who preach about at the most are not about to give up to private jets. Abortion? Nobody will ever agree on this in a million years. Stolen land? It doesnât matter because Billie might be able to virtue signal by talking about it, but she sure as hell is not going to give up her mansion.
1
2 Reply
Asker
3 mo
You are right lol. In my eyes the Americas never belonged to the Europeans. Did the natives have a government and then modern society, no. But they occupied it and raised families on it. We came over took the land and, in time, slaughtered their women and children and were praised for it. I try not to think about it because thereâs no going back and changing it.
If you go back far enough, almost all land was stolen at one point or another. Many of the American colonists purchased the land from natives. The thing is those natives often stole the land from someone else. History is dark and messy, and people will often highlight some messes over other messes to serve their political agenda.
Nope. Borders of nations shift based on the outcome of wars. It doesn't matter what patch of land you examine anywhere in the world, they've all been won and lost repeatedly to different nations throughout history. If you can militarily hold land, it belongs to you for a time. If you can't, someone will conquer you. They will stomp on you until you make an agreement that grants them the annexation of the land they claim with force or your entire nation will be wipe off the face of the Earth. If you agree to the annexation in a peace agreement to end the war, then you have granted them legal claim over the land. If you are wiped off the face of the Earth, then you no longer exist and the land is up for settlement by the force to exert force over the land this granting them a legal claim over unclaimed land. There is no stealing involved, just winners and losers in war. In order to steal something you have to take something stealthy by definition. It's to make away with property without the knowledge of the owner specifically. If you are getting murdered and driven from your home, I'm pretty sure you've got an idea that someone is fucking your day up.
Either way, I wish all the explorers of the late 14 and 1500s had just turned their ships around, gone home and never said a word of what they saw. I could be living in France or Italy now.
You still can. Just build a skill set that those countries demand and then immigrate to their country on a visa and find work. Or you can find work in your home country with a global corporation and then transfer to one of their a European offices on a work visa. If you stay long enough and follow their laws you can likely gain citizenship. If you like France specifically then you can try out for the French Foreign Legion.
No because the designation of "stolen" is an empty term in the context. Who was it specifically "stolen" from? What claim did they have to it? Were they conquered through displacement or armed force, or where they screwed over by some territorial sale that would actually qualify as stolen?
Most natives in the US were nomadic at the time of colonization and thus rarely set up land in a specific place and claimed it as territory. This is a consequence of the lack of livestock available on the content to allow permanent agriculture and husbandry to make sense. There certainly were some native tribes that got screwed out of treaties and deals that were territory bound, but in the grand scheme of pioneer expansion that was not the case. Most of the territorial expansion by what would later become the United States was won through military conquest or simple displacement. It was not stolen exactly, it was lost.
It is worth noting that the unique lifestyle of the natives that forced them into fragmented, nomadic tribes is what really allowed this to happen. At the same time they were fighting the colonists to keep them at bay, they were often fighting each other over decades long tribal feuds. It is also worth noting that the reason the US was able to expand was the Americans' adoption of the previous British attitude in that the new world was meant to live and thrive on, not just serve as a resource extraction area. If the French had won the 7 years war and the original colonies had been taken over by them, it is much more likely you would see large urban centers along rivers that once upon a time were fur trading posts and military bases that would later become sovereign French territory, surrounded by a "sea" of unclaimed native territories that may or may not move on from a nomadic lifestyle to promote trade.
Pretty much every society that ever existed was formed through the violent subjugation of the people who previously lived there.
Killing people over hunting territory is as common as a gust of wind all over the Americas for as long as humans ever existed on it.
The only thing we're more guilty of than them is doing what they were incapable of doing: Keeping the land we took
If you don't want to lose, don't create a zero sum game and that's exactly what the native tribes did and when combined with the near complete absence of any military discipline, consistency, logistics or tactics, it's no wonder they lost everything once the colonials arrived
Natives had a saying that those who leave horses unattended deserve to have them stolen. To that, I say if they're too unsophisticated and cowardly to protect their land, that land deserves better owners.
While Natives had victories every here and there, Natives were forced to not only retreat, but abandon their home regions all together, due to colonial military activity.
They wanted a dog eat dog world, not realizing there were bears living across the sea. When they arrived, only through the relatively impeccable mercy of colonial armies alone, do any traces of native Americans not go up in flames within 1 year of their arrival
Nope, land won in war or purchased via treaty is not stolen. Unless you are talking about eminent domain where individuals weren't compensated the required triple market value. Or the Extermination Order by then Gov. Boggs of Missouri whereby the Mormons were deprived of the majority of their property and driven out of Missouri under the threat of death. But I mean they were just bunch of abolishonists that moved into a slave state and were actively trying to turn it into a free state 30 years before the start of the Civil War. But hey, they wear magic underwear and have multiple wives; so them trying to end slavery peacefully before the Civil War would have been weird. Only they didn't do any of that until Brigham Young took over the church; and he wouldn't have taken over the church if Joseph Smith II wasn't killed by a mob in a jail cell. Especially since he was under investigation by the church for heresy; an investigation that was kept quiet since Young had been Smith's right hand man for decades. As you wouldn't want to tarnish his reputation without proof. Only problem was that he was accused of teaching the acceptance plural marriage and performing them. But I digress.
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Anonymous
(45 Plus)
3 mo
Depends on how you think. As a Native American myself many tribes didnât believe land could belong to one person or persons, it belonged to the creator. So if weâre thinking w that mentality it really isnât stolen cause you believe that it belongs to the creator. So for us as natives to say you stole our land isnât right. Even if we said ok yes it was stolen land, other tribes stole land from other tribes as well. So w that said do we give that land back to the original native tribe from whom it was stolen? It gets very complicated.
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5 Reply
Asker
3 mo
Thatâs a great perspective to look from. I didnât expect to hear from a real Native American. Thanks a lot for answering. So, honestly, should I be upset with America for all that happened or let it go?
It really depends. Yes you can be upset to a degree, but not to the point of ruining your life or living this life that thatâs all you breathe. There are a lot of people of various color who have been through a lot. Many of us are capable of defending what we believe. Iâm not telling you to not support us or to support us. You just need to make sure you do the research before getting out there like a lot of these people we see on tv acting out. Then you can decide from there. But donât go so far that it destroys your life cause now youâre always mad about things. Weâre only on the planet for a certain amount of time. What matters most is what you leave behind. People may not all agree w me especially other Native Tribes, but thatâs my opinion. A lot of people speaking from a Native perspective try to act traditional but than theyâre out there drinking, committing crimes, etc, etc. Iâm wasnât an angel myself. But what Iâm trying to get at is a lot of people arenât righteous today until it comes to things like this then we try to get on our high horse like weâre all spiritual, traditional. Yes I will say there are a number of Natives who really are traditional, but thereâs also a lot who only act that way when it comes to presenting yourself to other races.
I will tell you I donât ever recall experiencing racism from whites. I do however remember all the hate I got from a in my own tribe because I lived in the city as. Skid, so I was called a white man, put down, so was my sister. Just make sure you research things first before you get out there bring your bra lol sorry just a joke. Wait for things to play out more before reacting. I canât be mad at everything, thatâs no life to live. Iâd be mad at whites. Iâd be mad at Japanese for Pearl Harbor demanding that some little Japanese girl pay reparations to the families of those who died during that attack. Just make sure you educate yourself before you dive into things. To me America is the people. We are America. Not the government.
Conquered land. Wars were fought and ownership changed. No different than Indian on Indian wars. You can see which land was owned by which tribe and how ownership shifted over the years. âStolen landâ is just the latest BS from the Left to get people upset. Huge respect for the Indians though. The US even names some of its most fierce weapons after them such as the Apache helicopters.
Who would count as the owners before and why? Native Americans slaughtered each other well before the Europeans arrived. So you can't say that the Europeans were not the rightful owners because they stole it from the rightful owners. This is because, in saying that conquest makes you a thief of land and not a rightful owner, you also call the Indian tribes thieves of land. It makes the situation out to be one thief stealing from another thief.
Beyond the internal contradictions of the idea that the europeans stole the land, right by conquest has long been honored as a right way to possess land. You could maybe consider it stealing, but it is valid stealing by global historical standards.
No thats idiotic, go back far enough in time and every place on earth was "owned" by some other people or culture.
The native Americans where constantly fighting and taking over territories, the land was constantly changing hands, just like it was everywhere. The rules of the world was, if you dont have it.. fight for it and take it.. if you have it.. fight for it to keep it.. Europeans came over to America and followed the same rules that Native Americans had been using for 1000s of years, just like everywhere.
Here is a map from the 1400s look how completely different it is compared today..
I think there is no land which is intrinsically owned by anyone. He who is strong enough to take owns it. Now of course we have laws which protects land owners without a question, but these are the laws of the people who took over the country. If some other race is strong enough to take over a country it can and will replace the law of the country, and there is no guarantee that land owners will keep their land.
And so many years later, they started to pay for it.\nBy giving indians a monthly check and also allowed them to build casinos. So they're paying for it , and they will always pay for it
But think\nAbout all that did not receive any money
It's really all just semantics when you stop to think about it.
It reminds me of a monologue about how it's impossible for justice not to prevail because the winner defines it.
But it's interesting that so many Americans apparently feel betrayed the realities of how human civilization came to be weren't explained to them at a young age.
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Anonymous
(25-29)
3 mo
Yes it was built on stolen land. Most of the west is built like that. British colonised India, and parts of china. Stole all the good things and resources. Germany, Russia and surprisingly Japan was like that as well, Japan forced into china killed and raped. Every country has some of the other bad part. India currently is turning into a dictatorship, China trying to be the provider of every goods and services. Japan becoming the point for porn industry (and anime ) America is also turning into dictatorship, cause trump. There is politics going on which I don't understand but I can see what bad is happening
Those making such claims would have a very hard time actually determining who owned it- lots of people in the Americas were nomadic or had to abandon areas and move to new places to ensure their survival, plus the concept of modern land ownership didn't exist. Land also changed hands due to warfare in pre-Columbian times as well.
Interestingly, those that claim the US is on stolen land would never say the Palestinians are on it in Judea and Samaria.
Yes, it's obvious, slavery too. The British Empire was built similarly on invasion, colonisation and slavery. It's the way things were in those days.
Now it's OK, in my mind, to celebrate that they stopped doing those things and attempted to keep them from happening any more around the world, creating the UN, NATO, doing peacekeeping, food aid, etc.
Then Putin decided to take the world back a century or two.
@Kingofkings1992 At the time Caesar became emperor of Rome, they had already been here for millennia. Not centuries: millennia. What would eventually become the european countries and kingdoms that were to steal their land didn't even exist yet.
26.4K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
No , everyone knows that native Americans had no concept over land ownership. They thought they were gettign the best of the settlers by "selling" them Manhattan for a pile of beads.
I donât think so. The northeast was primarily French early on, i believe. It was Englandâs capture of that region that compelled the French to help the colonists fight England for independence. Which you might remember was likely the prevailing factor in England acquiescing. Iâm pretty sure. I just read up on this recently.
I mean if you want to be realistic about it technically pretty much every country and territory on earth in on stolen land.
Every patch of land on earth has been conquered, lost, reconquered and lost again multiple times by various peoples/cultures and tribes throughout history.
Ownership of land goes to the victor who takes it whether anyone likes it or not that's just a fact of life.
Almost all land on this planet is stolen land. A batter term for it is conquered land, cause that's what happened. And every single race on this planet participated in it. Those that use the bullshit line "no one is illegal on stolen land" are lying at worst, willfully stupid morons at best.
Everyone on earth is on someoneâs stolen land. They were fighting each other over hunting grounds before Europeans got here. There isnât some perfect human race out there, And unless you believe in Buddha or Jesus might make right, is the law of nature.
Yes, the Indians stole it from Ancient North Eurasians who were ancestors to Europeans and got to Siberia first. Then the natives migrated north drove the ancient North Eurasians west thus insuring the Indians claimed the Americas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian
Peoples being pushed out by other peoples is something that has been going on for millenia. Before Europeans got here tribes were often displaced by other tribes; Native Americans weren't a monolithic culture.
It was built on conquered land. The stolen part comes later when the 500+ treaties that were signed by various US governments were either ignored or violated. You're still a patriot? What does THAT mean? Are you currently a Trump supporter?
In the big idea of it, yes. Did we pay the native americans for the land? No, we just took it.
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0 Reply
Anonymous
(25-29)
3 mo
Yes for both north and South American. If you do an ancestry dna test you can see white Americans are actually genetically European and black Americans are genetically African
It was but the natives may hav also stoln land from each othr n bilt on it. Othr nations may hav done the same. It was in the past so we don't hav 2 feel bad.
If "property is theft", as Pierre-Joseph Proudhon stated, the land never belonged to anyone, therefore it couldn't have been stolen.
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Anonymous
(45 Plus)
3 mo
I missed the deed.😆 The redskins where stealing this land from eachother hundreds of years before the white man ever showed up. If those bloody savages didn't consider it stealing then, then it's not stealing now.
Of course it was. Native Americans were here first and we killed them for it. US never honored agreements with Natives. We kept increasing population and took more of their land.
There are only concorers, natives fought eachother all the time, enslaving eachother, took land and resources from other tribes. We were just another people looking to expand and carve a life for ourselves, no different than them.
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Anonymous
(30-35)
3 mo
no. can you steal something you fought for and won? we are settlers. not "immigrants".
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0 Reply
Anonymous
(36-45)
3 mo
If it's stolen land then are the non Europeans trying to steal land when they immigrate to Europe?
Such are the forces of history. The Amerindians fought hard but ultimately lost as have countless other peoples lost to time. The vast majority of people bringing it up have an agenda and it's best to ignore them.
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