Do you agree with the nuclear umbrella proposed by France/Macron?

[Alexandrubaschet08]

This plan to protect EU and NATO countries in Europe involves placing nuclear warheads in countries that want them and also those that are considered threatened, especially those in Eastern Europe.
I'm curious, especially about the opinion of Europeans.

Yes, is a good plan.

No, is a bad idea. (please explain why)

[madhatters4]

seems fine to me. it's not like he's forcing countries to arm up with french nukes. but is inviting countries to "host" french nukes... i do love the term "hosting"

but it makes sense. the EU is effectively a collective body with shared economic and protective interests. a threat or attack on one EU member state impacts all EU member states.

I don't like that we are in this stage of human history. It's alarming that after all this time we haven't seen how nuclear warfare and the threat of it present an awful existential crisis and moved towards disarmament.

[KostasKouvalis]

Sounds fine to me. Those countries aren't hostile to the US, so I don't see any issue with it

[strateguy632]

they might not guard it as carefully then stolen.

[FreyaRed]

Somehow it's just hot air and not really a nuclear deterrence plan.
I'm for nuclear weapons but there are so many questions about who should control the escalation, how are rules engagement... there are many questions which are very important in matter of nuclear weapons. With putting 10 nukes into a bunker it's not done.

[Julie07]

I agree, France's vocation is to unite Europe around it. Richelieu even had a play written about it.

Those damned English with their European balance are ruining everything.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Did you vote?

[Julie07]

Yes.

[jamesgoldman]

Look at Macron's record, he is using France as a proxy puppet for the EU therefore Germany and the Nazi party to take over all of Europe as Hitler failed to do by war so invite them to a party then dispatch the leadership for a supreme leader of all of Europe

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@jamesgoldman Macron is fighting on the defensive.
Russia is constantly expanding.
And in Germany AFD=NAZY is not in power.
At this moment France is acting as it should have been acting long ago.
Russia is a real threat, and only fools ignore or do not know this.

Vive la France!

[jamesgoldman]

Russia will move one way and the Nazis will move the other same as world war 2, Britain will just watch from the side in the same way until the US joins the war

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@jamesgoldman It shows how stupid you are.
UK is in NATO and currently has the highest percentage of citizens who want to rejoin the EU (+60%).
If Russia attacks a NATO country then all NATO member countries will mobilize to destroy the Russian aggression.
Almost all of Europe is united under the EU and NATO.
You are talking nonsense.

[jamesgoldman]

Russian will drop a nuke and wipe out Europe in one hit

The UK wants back under the nazi jackboot and the EU will finish invading the UK, executing the domestic population to build their dream... Auschwitz 2

[ThisDudeHere]

@jamesgoldman "Russian will drop a nuke and wipe out Europe in one hit" how the fuck can an entire continent be wiped out in one hit? You'd have to drop a dinosaur killing asteroid to do that.

And you were told earlier that the nazis are not in charge anywhere in Europe, san's russia in a way.

[jamesgoldman]

The nukes now will take out 2,000 miles with the radiation and the EU and it's associated entities were all founded by the Nazis they didn't hang at the end of the war and they've not changed in 80 years

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@jamesgoldman You're sick!
In Eastern Europe, the communist parties created by Russia are still in power, you idiot!

Russia won't do shit!
Russia has only 2 industrial cities, and with them wiped off the face of the earth Petersburg and Moscow, Russia is back in the Middle Ages!

The EU is the most democratic and secure economic alliance that has ever existed.
France fought against the Nazis!
UK also, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway!
The Eastern Bloc was also really under the influence of Russia and in it are the most hostile countries towards Russia.
The closer you get to Russia, the more the countries' hatred towards it increases. The further you get from Russia, the more the hatred decreases.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@jamesgoldman You only need 20 nuclear bombs to destroy planet Earth.
"A world without Russia..." will exist if it does not stop its aggression in Ukraine and interference in the policies of other states, such as the UK, France, Romania, Poland, Hungary, the Republic of Moldova, etc.

[jamesgoldman]

Russia is used to the dark ages having only left them 30 years ago, Europe left theirs 300 years ago so they wouldn't adapt in the majority

WW3 has already begun and the end of humanity on planet earth will be before the end of this decade when one power or Ai reaches for the nuclear option

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@jamesgoldman Russia never left the dark times, that's why they are the most fearful of all Europeans.
Romania for Bessarabia gave you a damage of over 20 million people for a small piece of land.
In Russia, a lot is produced and badly.

Russia is nothing but scum under the nails of the Europeans, weak economy, poorly equipped and trained army.
If you read "Putin's Russia - by Anna Politkovskaya" you will realize the reality in Russia presented by a Russian woman, who was shot in the elevator of the block of flats where she lived on Oct. 7, 2006 (Putin's Day) for the revelations made!!!

Russia is a piece of the past. When Nazi Germany fell, the same should have been done with the USSR to avoid having the current problems!

[RavVid]

The English always have ruined everything. That has always been their plan.

[RavVid]

Article 5 is not what is cracked up to be. Lets take Poland. There always has to some doubt that Western Europe would sacrifice themselves if Russia invaded.

Nuclear weapons are not cheap. The UK spends 10 billion USD yearly and France 7 billion. It would be most reasonable that all European contries wanting a nuclear umbrella pay and have those weapons on their own soil.

Russia "Poland doesn't have nukes"

Poland "Our French friends will nuke you if you try anything"

Russia "Sure they will and be happy at being nuked in return"

[Alexandrubaschet08]

I disagree for paying, moust of the country that don't have nuks and are in East can't even afford.
And same thing back to Russia.
If you don't want a nuke in the head of your country don't invade NATO.
Just because Russia have nuks as well doesn't suppose to scare us, we have too.
Who is starting its aggression against NATO will be also the first to suck it.

[RavVid]

Broadly agree with the proviso of... in a better world.

A concern I have with Europe is that it is a lot of little countries when I use my own (Australia) as a bench mark.

Despite Europe having a large population, after the UK, France, Germany, Italy, possibly Spain than it is just a lot of little countries with not so big populations. Nederlands does well for it's size as do some others.

If you have a lot of small countries that can't individually afford much military capability, then Europe can't punch at it's weight. Australia is #17 on the Global Fire Power Index and theoretically could defeat most European nations one on one. You have got Russia at your front door.

So I think Europe needs to deal with it's small country problem to be more secure. Nukes as suggested by Macron might be one way to do it.

I'd not be confident that a Parisian would be willing to take a nuke for Warsaw being nuked by Russia.

[darkcloud1945]

You forgot Hungary has no nukes. I think neither Poland nor Hungary is part of the EU.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@darkcloud1945 Both Poland and Hungary ar part of EU, especialy Poland who is a pro-EU nation, not like Hungary, a EU member pro-Russia.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Dear Parisian, I would like to point out the information that it only takes about 20 nuclear bombs to destroy planet Earth.
You, France, have about 300.
If you are brave and with us (I am from Romania), your allies, Russia would not dare to do anything to you.
Both we Romanians, as well as the Poles and even the Moldovans from the Republic of Moldova, Ukraine, Finland, tell you that you must be brave in the face of Russia and not be intimidated, we have better economies, more efficient weapons, population, laws, lower corruption than in Russia.
We have everything we need together to be able to defend ourselves. If you have the nuclear bomb and you are still afraid, then nothing will save you from the influence and subsequently the Russian threat.
Don't forget, Russia visited Paris, I don't think you want a second time.

[RavVid]

Sorry to say but a lot could depend on circumstances. The nuclear umbrella was invented to prevent proliferation and it has worked because they haven't been used since WW2.

If Russia was thinking of nuking Bucharest and was certain France and the UK (possibly the US too) would immediately launch nukes to Moscow it probably would not happen.

If response was delayed at all, there would be Parisians in the street yelling "Non. Non la bombe" because they don't want to commit suicide. The umbrella depends on willingness to die and fortunately that has never tested.

The flip side of Macron's proposal is possibly to scale back the umbrella, if I am cynical.

With the corollary of "Well we offered them nukes to protect themselves against Russia but they said no to the cost. Kinda their fault and problem after that".

[Alexandrubaschet08]

If a country that did not attack Russia is nuclear bombed by it, and France/Paris does not take action, and the citizens also shout "Non. Non la bombe", then it means that there are no allies and that the big countries dictate over the small ones. Something that will never be accepted by the small countries.

If Russia launches a nuclear bomb towards Bucharest or Warsaw, then the reaction of the NATO allied countries with nuclear bombs should be instantaneous!

[RavVid]

I would hope so but fear not so.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Is a situation of evrething or nothing, "now or never".
We need to defend our alliance and principals no mather wath.
We Eastern Europeans are the first in line to fight for thus ideas as long you western are willing to not let us down and be by our side and hold our back.

[RavVid]

I'd agree with that.

[CalmUntilAbused]

Oh... France? The country with a modular flag featuring colourful stripes to be cut off in case of a war? Yeah, like this could ever be believeable... As much as I am discontent with what happens in Iran (except Iran standing their ground and biting back, I love that part), if we're talking credibility, I would rather apply for the US Nuclear Sharing program...

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Trump have the intention of abandoning Europe, he is not trustful, so that why we can't count of USA in this times.

[darkcloud1945]

We have been protecting Europe's ass since the end of World War II, with minimal money paid to NATO, by Europeans, and trillions of dollars over the decades spent by the bank of Americans to protect Europe's ass. in Nato

[Alexandrubaschet08]

@darkcloud1945 Friend, in percentage terms, you give him that money from your military budget anyway.
That 3% amount you pay is a fortune from your real military budget.
Also, there was an agreement, truly unwritten and unofficial until the first arrival of Trump, that the US keeps bases and troops in Europe but those soldiers and their families benefit from a more special lifestyle.
They could bring their families to Europe, they had free transportation, their children could go to good schools and benefit from free education.
They were deprived of the freedom of movement in the EU, they could go to different exotic and luxurious places on vacation: Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Malta, Portugal, etc.
Everything was made available to them from a social, economic, infrastructural, educational point of view, some could even get a second citizenship after a while and even stay in Europe, benefiting from the benefits of the USA after finishing their military service.

Europe didn't invest so much in NATO, but it offered services, services that the US can't offer to ordinary people and sometimes even to those in their army.

[DryGermanGuy]

In times of American Trumpism, isolationism and weirdism I'll say lets develop independent European military solutions and defense pacts.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

It will be even more easy if we unite all of the EU countrys in one single federation and make.
United Federal Stares of Europe.

[darkcloud1945]

Please do that, it will save the people of the USA billions and billions of dollars, protecting Europe. Trumpism is finally forcing Europe to stand on its own two feet and stop relying on the USA to protect and pay for the protection of Europe. This way, America can save billions of dollars, and Europe can pay for its own protection

[DryGermanGuy]

@darkcloud1945
I doubt that the USA would be saving much, because the people claiming that are under the false impression, that the USA would pay most of the NATO operating costs (they don't) or that the USA would buy weapons for European countries (they don't).
If the United States wants to have bases here in Europe, it will cost them money to do so. If they don't want that, they have to leave, simple as that.

[darkcloud1945]

That is the best idea that I have heard. YES YES YES get us the hell out of Europe. Let Europe stand on its own and spend its billions on its own defence, and lose all the billions that Americans stationed in Europe spend there. Up until recently, America paid the bulk of the money supporting NATO. Russia, China, and DPR never paid a cent to NATO for decades 50s 60, 70, and 80s

[DryGermanGuy]

I have no problem with that, suits me. FYI: Germany pays the exact same amount of NATO operating costs (15,9%) as the United States. The silly joke about Russia and China I'm going to ignore.

[darkcloud1945]

I know the truth hurts you. You never looked back on those years to find the truth; you just ignore it, and it will go away

[DryGermanGuy]

I can assure you that both as a German and a European, I'm doing perfectly fine. But I'm not feeding your delusions about poor exploited 'Murrica, so you can feel better.

[AviatorTom]

The problem with more countries having nukes, like more people having guns, is that there's a greater probability that someone is going to use them.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Good, then all nations should give up to them. If not, them all nations should have nuks.
Not the big nation rule over the small one.
Each nation have their right to decide their own path for their own country future!

[strateguy632]

that is stupid. russia is deterred just by france having hydrogen bombs. no need to put in finland! in fact that would look like "make finland shoot and get burnt so we in france don't get burnt" the problem of cuba in cuba missile crisis. macron is being an idiot again. even french people around me all agree macron is horrible!

[Alexandrubaschet08]

This is not the same Cuban problem from the 60s.
Russia invaded and declared war on a sovereign and independent state!
And it threatens Europe as well.
The solution is the withdrawal of Russian troops from the territory of Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia.
Payment of war reparations after 1945!
Dismemberment of Russia
Denazification of it.
Decommunization of it
Democratization of it
And even demilitarization of it!
If Finland attacks Russia alone, NATO will not activate to protect it.
Such an attack would only drag Finland individually into war with Russia.

[darkcloud1945]

Who is going to decide to fire the nukes, when, and at who? Europe is not known for smart decisions

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Europe is know for the best decisions.
The answer will be.
France, togeder with the European allies.
When one European nation from NATO is invaded by Russia especialy of other strong nation that put the security in danger.

[darkcloud1945]

Just look at them overrun with people of foreign origin wanting to change their laws to Sharia Law, like what is happening in Merry OLD ENGLAND, which is happening all over Europe, and people want to listen to them as to when and at whom they are going to nuke. Europe's soul belongs to God, and their asses belong to the assholes in charge [THE EU AND CHINA OWNED UN]

[Alexandrubaschet08]

I live in UK dud.
What you talking is bullshit from Russia.
There is no such a thing of replacing the local laws with Sharia.
There are no laws above UK in UK, beside the international one.
And Europe don't belong to God!
God don't belong to nobady.
You can pray to God even in a muslim country like Afganistan.
Nobady can take your fate in God, so cut the crap.

[darkcloud1945]

That is why the Muzzies are trying to change Merry Old England to Sharia law, as they are trying to change the USA. Pull your head out of your ass, and take a real look at all of England, Ireland, Scotland, etc and what is happening there. Plus, I never mentioned RUSSIA, I SAID CHINA

[Alexandrubaschet08]

I live in the UK, there is no real problem with immigrants in the way it is presented.
Hatred towards minorities and people of other ethnicities is a Russian weapon.
Most influencers are funded to create such content by dubious individuals and I personally have received such offers on "Telegram". To promote certain news and narratives in exchange for sums of money. If I didn't care what content I would have accepted, but I didn't because it required you to accept the offer before receiving the content.
No law will change with Sharia in the UK, and UK laws take precedence over Sharia. No one is exempt from UK law just because they are under Sharia law.
If you are found guilty by UK laws you are screwed. If you are not, but you are guilty under Sharia, then you are tried by Sharia.
BUT I REPEAT! UK LAW TAKES PRIORITY OVER SHARIA!

[Alexandrubaschet08]

China is largely irrelevant in this story, it only supports Russian propaganda through its Tik-Tok network, offering Russia an area in which to spread its propaganda in exchange for resources in Siberia.

[darkcloud1945]

Let's take a break and see what happens over the next few years

[beefcakebradybatson]

No, because the more nukes, the higher chance for bad actors to get a hold of them.

[MereAnarchy]

Easy. Legalize Davy Crockett open carry. Peace.

[MereAnarchy]

Man-portable nuclear recoilless rifle.

[Kelly6]

@alexandrubaschet08 Yes very good idea