Should martial law be used to crush organized crime without mercy?

[foxsquirrell]

By Marshall law I understand that the army will take care of this business and it will not take prisoners.

Yes

No

A total of 14 votes were cast: 3 girls and 11 guys. See detailed results

[NaultD]

Isn't it common knowledge how easily politicians get bought and bride into criminals. So you want those people to have unilateral control of killing normal people?

Those who hunt monsters see too you yourself don't become monsters. For those who gaze upon the abyss the abyss gazes back. Fredrick neichze. Flat circle ring any bells?

Yes don is a sack of shit but look how slowly his ineptitude is actively killing him.

Good things can happen because they are good as much as a tree grows big and strong. It's the fire and chainsaws haphazardly knocking things down that does the real damage.

Our checks and balances is what keeps the real dangers away. Not from destroying them out right but by making them limp dick and powerless. While good things just grow on there own. Slowly and even slower on bad but still growing.

[foxsquirrell]

I mean one or two politicians here and there may be bribed yes, but so what. You think these few are going to control the many? I don't think so. They do not use the military or such hard measures because they do not care that much in their majority. But if they want to do it they can and it will work.
I dont really get this looking into the abyss and the abyss looks back at you business. As in what are you saying, we refrain from violence so that we don't get any dirt at all on our hands? OR I should say blood? Those are precisely the ones called armchair politicians. Those who avoid their duties in favor of their reputation and their own safety.
Unfortunatley sometimes you need to wage war. There is no other way. Just like if you have a garden you need to put in some effort and you need to sweat a bit to remove the weeds. Simple.

[NaultD]

Hunting monsters makes you into said monster. It's the first part of the quote.

Without due process and killing others you are as accountable for death. In the emd might makes right.

In the end the best at organizing crime gets to control everything. Because anyone can kill anyone so long as they have the ability to do so.

[foxsquirrell]

Not a monster at all when you are defending yourself from the harm and violence these people bring with them. It is a duty to eliminate them. It is amazing how people (unless you are one of them) vote against such measures. I cannot never fathom this.
And when I say Marshall law forget about due process and accountability. That is why it is called Marshall law as far a I know. And if Marshall law is not enough we can always change the law or add to it. WE make the LAW. Remember that! We can go on as much as you please. I am on this side you are on the other side. Its not going to change ever. So we might as well drop it here.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Nope.

Not unless you want to live in a black mirror episode. So I'm glad your opinion does not have any impact to any legislation of any region. It's an actual relief.

Yes, I'm a leftist yay 🥳🥳🥳

[foxsquirrell]

Well enjoy the effects of organised crime then. Maybe not so much in your area, but other people do suffer. Black mirror episode. It depends how you look at it. You can look at it from the point of view that you are letting organised crime operate instead of doing what it takes to destroy them. That is the black mirror from my point of view.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

... With the megatons of brain power, either coming from our brightest ancestors or the current living ones, it seems excessively unwise of you to imagine that destroying organised crime would be as simple and efficient as you say it would be.

[foxsquirrell]

I think it is simple and straight forward if they fix the law. Very simple. It is the law with all those human rights and stuff, and people fighting for them because they have nothing better to do which makes it a difficult ordeal. Otherwise it is simply locating and killing these thugs like dogs. (No disrespect towards dogs) We should show them that 2 can play their game.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

All right let's dig your idea, let's pretend we're not reinventing the wheel.

Here is your law, it's happening, military budget can now be used for domestic issues. And you're the boss of a task force. They told you they located and kill thugs, no trial, bullet in the head. However some of these thugs are high profile, they have a deal with some people you answer to, higher in the hierarchy. What do you do?

[foxsquirrell]

Specifically organised crime I am talking. Well if the government is part of organised crime there is nothing to do. We just leave everything as it is and pretend we are doing something every now and then but leave the main problem alive.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

A fraction of gov may be part of it, a fraction of corporate leaders may be part of it, both may have deals together, yes. Plus, if you use military, you now have a problem with the states turning against you, a federal force

[Anonymous]

No, the law prohibits use of the military for that purpose.

[foxsquirrell]

I am sick of dumb and rigid people like you. That is what we are discussing here. Should it be made into a law then? Is that better for you?

[Opinion Owner]

No it should not be made into law.

[Opinion Owner]

You've clearly never served a day in the military. I'm sick and tired of stupid numb nuts like you who think the military is a utility organization for heavy-handed law enforcement. Ever heard of the Posse Comitatus law and why we have it? You must be leftist smh.

[foxsquirrell]

We can change the law dear madam as I told you already. And I am not a leftist.

[Kelly6]

@foxsquirrell Yes

[foxsquirrell]

I agree!

[Kelly6]

@foxsquirrell
Giving criminals chance to go free is stupidity

[foxsquirrell]

Exactly. Certain kind if criminals don't deserve chances. They will use their chances not to reform and learn, but to have another shot at doing what they want.

[exitseven]

no , we just need to get rid of liberal judges an d start giving out stiffer jail sentences.

[KostasKouvalis]

Sure, why not?
People actually voted NO? Why would anyone be pro crime?

[strawberryapple]

Sure. Let’s start with the cartels in Mexico.

[goaded]

Oh. A fascist. No.

[foxsquirrell]

Fool.

[goaded]

Yes, because it's totally natural for democratically elected governments to impose martial law for no good reason.

[foxsquirrell]

And what is the reason I want Martial Law?

[goaded]

To avoid that whole annoying due process of law stuff, which is why it's wrong.

[foxsquirrell]

Due process is something which organised criminals do not deserve and it is also something which is we do not afford when it comes to organised crime because due process can take years if not decades to get a conviction and in that time the damage they do is immense. Do you understand now why the use of Marshall law or some equivalent law specifically to take care with organised crime.

[goaded]

How do you know if they're "organised criminals", without due process?

[foxsquirrell]

The police know because they have the skills to investigate and gather facts. I think everyone knows who the criminals are, especially the police. They can present their findings to the president and he will sign a special permission to act and destroy the organised crime group. Simple. What do you think this due process of yours is after all? A court overlooked by God? Due process is sometimes if not often a circus were the clowns are called lawyers. And these clowns usually have no interest in justice. The only interest they have is to win the case at all cost. So do you want to talk practical, or do you want to talk fantasy and idealism detached from reality?

[goaded]

Due process is not imprisoning people based on what the cops say, but on what can be proven to independent citizens sitting on juries. The alternative is fascism, where the powerful decide who gets put in prison or even executed. Which is why I say you're a fascist.

Just look at all those cases being pursued by Trump against people who did their jobs and investigated his crimes or spoke out against what he's doing (not to mention the illegal killing of people with no due process and who aren't even suspected of capital crimes). What you're suggesting is designed to be abused.

[foxsquirrell]

Anything can be abused. I dont understand how you equate Martial law specifically employed against organised crime with fascism. It is merely your opinion. Regarding due process and proof I say that in many cases proof is neccessary to be established because what happened isn't so clear. But regarding organised crime due process is a mere formality. Everybody knows who they are and what they do, especially the police with their trained investigators. With such a problem as organised crime we do not have the luxury to grant them due process, because by the time they are convicted they would have come to the point of retirement. Plus such scum of society do not deserve fair treatment. They deserve to be dealt with in kind. You keep calling me a facist because you imagine that what I have will be applied to other areas of society, which is not the case. But it is clear to me now, you are another leftist. You are a disease. You ruin every society and every culture. You except every scum in society. I am glad you have Trump there and I hope there will be more people like him in the future.

[goaded]

Because it avoids the rule of law, which says you don't get to indict people, let alone imprison or execute them, without the say so of a grand jury of citizens.

You've got a president of the US saying that half the country are enemies of the state.

And we've got you saying I'm "a disease", dehumanising me, which is what fascists do. It makes it easier to have innocent people rounded up and put into camps.

[foxsquirrell]

You God damn can say that loud that I think that the left are a disease. the Marshall law as far as I know is just that, it bypasses the normal systems of law to deal with emergency situations, or with situations where the normal due process you are talking about is inadequate. And if we need to change the law we can do that too so that we can make quick work of such dangerous organisations without being critisized that we are breaking the law.
What they did in the US is to enact the so called RICO law. Which is a law specifically designed to combat organised crime. I am taking a step further, true, but that is why we are here discussing ideas and asking questions.

[goaded]

I know that people are people, not diseases, but fascists are fascists.

There is no "emergency situation". You want to get rid of the rule of law for no reason, which is fascist.

[foxsquirrell]

Yeah and leftist is leftist.

[Jeff51]

Will that affect regular working people?

[foxsquirrell]

Can you tell me why are you mentioning regular working people? I am talking about organised crime. Let me guess are you a leftist?