Would it still be unfair for a trans woman to compete in female sports if she transitioned before puberty?

[lumos]

Hard to say. Everyone's puberty starts at a different point. Some people hit puberty already at age 10, and others at age 13/14 etc. So how can you really prove that you didn't hit puberty before starting your hormonal treatments? Also, even if you technically didn't hit puberty, that doesn't mean that you haven't benefited from having testosterone in your body as a child. Even at a young age, boys still tend to grow muscles at a faster rate.

"Cis women are more fortunate and successful in every other facet of life. People should just let us have the one thing we do better in."

Sorry but this doesn't make any sense at all. Women's sports is already not taken as seriously as men's. Female athletes make less money and garner less attention, even when they're at the peak of their career and incredibly talented/successful. To have trans women come in and just take over because they have benefited from being biologically male up until the age of X, is extremely unfair. I would pretty much compare that to doping. The whole reason why men and women have separate teams and only compete against other men/women is because of the advantages men have. And like I said, even if you do start your hormonal treatments early, it's still incredibly likely that you've reached a physical state/benefited from your hormones in a way that a cis woman never could reach/benefit from. Hence, on a purely biological level, you have an unfair advantage that literally no cis woman ever could have. That goes beyond just having a talent for something or working hard to reach a goal.

You are allowed to identify as a woman. That's totally fine. However, you simply cannot ignore the unfair advantage you have from years of having testosterone in your body. Women's sports are already incredibly underappreciated, so I'd actually argue that cis women are more deserving of getting to compete against other women who are biologically on the same level as them.

[babywerewoof]

I dont know whats fair or not here. I think it should be ok for Trans people to compete in sports in school but when it comes to proffesional sports where the slightest physical advantage means millions of dollars, i dont think thats ok. Because in highschool people are vary a lot more in skill and thats going to be the major deciding factor in who wins. But olympic competitors are all proffessionals and the slightest physical advantage that trans women have that cis women would have to take illegal substances to get, thats really not ok. Like i said maybe thats not fair maybe it is, but fair or not thats what i think.

[akihon]

Nothing I say is going to sound fair here.

Science is settled as far as gender goes at least as far as it can be, biology is set and ultimately regardless of your outward appearance you have male anatomy and male physiology, your DNA shows your male, your hormones and hormone treatment reduces the amount of male hormone and increased the female hormones but it does not reduce the leg up that you've had since birth.

Now trans athletes dominate women's sports because of their increased ling capacity and increased physical strength over women when competing against them, the bottom male athletes when transitioning competing against women rise to be the top of the women's sport even for those who start their transition early. This again is related to biology.

I don't care what you think or what you look like or call yourself, an attack helicopter if you want I really don't care but I do care about fairness and I do care about science.

While I'm not attacking you I'm am going to say that I don't think your premise is fair simply because the evidence shows that there is still an unfair advantage to the trans athletes.

Now this of course opens up a whole can of worms regarding gender being a social construct and transitioning etc but I want to avoid that because I hope that your smart enough to know how stupid these arguments are.

[SirRexington]

"people should let us have the one thing we're better in"

Yes, because you are not a woman... geeze, this is why so many people hate trans people. You're claimed to be oppressed but then act so entitled. How is that possible? And look, you should not have been transitioning under the age of 18 anyway. Minors should be prohibited from going through transitional therapy. Only adults should be able to go through the process. And i think there is a reason the word *trans* is the prefix to woman. Because YOU AREN'T a woman. I'm sorry but you aren't.

You are like everyone else, entitled to certain provisions. This I am strongly in favor of. Housing, healthcare, an education. These are things everyone should be guaranteed if they need it. If the doctors (multiple) have concluded that as an adult, transitional therapy is the right path forward then you should have that ability and be covered under Medicare for all. But we should be very careful with prescribing that diagnosis and going through with it. Only in extreme cases. How many de-transition cases are there? A shit ton. Near half regret it and an even higher amount never feel relief from it...

Just because you are trans does not mean we have to take your opinion as the utmost authority. Why are we letting the inmates run the asylum?

[DorkVader]

There are a few schools of thought about trans athletes, because there are still issues about cis-gendered women who compete but have high amounts of naturally occurring
testosterone. Then having trans only leagues would have to provide for the safety of its athletes, as they've essentially outed a bunch of people, and the trans community faces a lot of danger still, as people can't just let people live. Then there are the athletes who didn't transition until adulthood. They're certainly no less a transwoman despite timing, his is that fair to them? This is a very complex issue altogether.

[Jonny_]

Biologically yes, guys in general have a natural advantage out of how our bodies develop. Even if you transition some of these advantages simply won't change, women have smaller lungs because their body has to be able to fit their uterus which guys obviously never have and a transition will never affect. Our bodies develop muscle differently as well, sure we can be more slight if we wish but as soon as we train for any kind of sport it's easier to develop muscle genetically which is the same reason sport depending that women will take male hormones to improve their results. I get that transitioning usually means stemming those hormones as much as possible but there is still doubt that there isn't still some kind of advantage one way or another.

[MrOracle]

Lizardman

Catwoman

Both of these people believe they were born the wrong species and have modified their bodies to appear more the way they self-identify. The person on top believes he's a lizard, and the person below believes she's a feline.

Is this in fact a reptile and a feline? Is belief and modifying their appearance enough to make them so?

[Greta_lover]

If your born Male you have certain biological advantages over any woman that's why despite being a tiny tiny minority compared to women transsexual women when the compete against women in almost any sport that involves physical fitness they rise to the top and dominate women.
I'm sorry to say but it doesn't matter how much hormones they take or surgery they get but trans women will always be men up until maybe in the future geneticists are able to resequence a persons DNA and allow them to grow the sexual organs they want.

[COMMODOREII]

I really don't see what the difference is. If you look at the science it might depend on the person. See the idea is that men are better at sports than women and its due to the testosterone hormone. But tbh there are women can do much better than men. I think what would be better is determining whether the person is really a man or a woman once they transitioned. Estrogen and testosterone affects the human body differently. So if a person transitions into a woman from a man is that person really a man any longer. Especially if the remove the testes which is the source of the testosterone. If you are taking estrogen or even have had a transplant of ovaries added to your body then technically you are not a man anymore and you should compete in the womens league. Or vice versa if you become a man.

[PrimalInstinct]

Absolutely no offense but to be on par with a woman a trans has to start hormones at 10 or younger. By 15 they are an adolescent, produced testosterone, and on average have an unfair advantage of larger muscle mass. It's the simplicity of human biology.

Now the thing is, is how is an older trans any different than a woman taking performance-enhancing drugs. Not much. Really it’s one may still have their dick & the other was born a woman.

And athletes are fined, suspended and even banned from serious events & pro sports for performance-enhancing drugs. I say the same should be of older trans regarding events were awards or money is involved and/or events on the state, national, etc. level.

They may not be taking drugs, after all, but they’re naturally “performance enhanced”.

[wankiam]

in motorsports it wouldn't matter but in sports that aren't a level playing field the only real workable way around the whole testosterone levels debate is to have male, femal and trans sports... would bring a whole new meaning to the old tv show that was called transworld sport.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

It's my understanding that it's primarily the secondary sex characteristics that would give a person an unfair advantage in sports that are divided up along gender lines. That is, the relatively larger muscle mass that males enjoy is developed after puberty. That leads me to think that if someone transitioned before puberty, they are on equal footing with people whose gender matches their birth-assigned biological sex. So, they should be allowed to compete in sporting events.

[humanearth]

If a women can compete with men in weight lifting, NASCAR, Pro Wrestling,

I even just read a story about a woman took on some man for his MMA for the title in Mexico. She lost but almost won.

So if you want to do boxing or something that. Go for it.

[Trolloween]

When you see trans women compete, do they do average or are they typically winning and smashing world records? That should really be the answer and all the evidence you need to see that it is grossly unfair. Trans athletes will destroy all women's sports. How would you feel if you dedicated thousands of hours and your whole life to being a top athlete and then an average man comes in after transitioning and breaks the world record? It is staggering anyone can argue this is OK or fair.

[chrissykerdock]

the whole concept is wrong and immoral... can't they let girls compete amoung their own sex... why do they have to bring male boys to compete with them... this is wrong it's actually sick... it's like letting men use women toilets because they think their cross genders... I've seen a few so called cross genders and they look nothing like women... there's no way you can rationalize this it's so wrong on so many levels.

[mistixs]

Even younger than 15, male biology makes somebody better at sports than an adult woman. https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

[EchoicReticence]

I think a trans woman should be able to compete in female sports, but I will add however, that if the bodily development offered an unfair advantage (the start of rapid muscle growth, etc) that it'd probably be best to wait until she has gotten further along in the hormone treatment, and further along in the age class for the sport as that would allow for one to be placed at a competitive level with others minimizing the chances of an unfair advantage on the field. Not for the sake of everyone else and their pride, but for the trans person who wants to play the sport because that could lead to disqualification and could ultimately lead to them not wanting to play that sport again and possibly destroying someone's passion for it. And thats my only concern in the matter, is preserving a passion, regardless of gender. No one should have to hate something they love over someone else's opinion.

[worldscolide]

No.. If you're not biologically a woman you absolutely should not be permitted to compete against women in sport... And transitioning before puberty, I'd want to know the names of the parents that committed such child abuse.

[loveslongnails]

If you were born with male parts, you dont play on the women's team, and vice versa, in my opinion. The LPGA has that rule, and its simple and easy. Its a small price to pay in the long run, that's part of your choice.

[SuccessfulHornDog]

hmmm that a good question. I think that males are born with more muscle than females and then the have testosterone to increase them. Without puberty you'd still have an advantage over females in the amunt of base muscle

[JackSmy]

So why not start a trans league, for whatever sport? Why make it an issue, trying to complete, or being judged, or being forbidden from competing?
Why not have your own, and make it your own?

[SamtheDnDgirl]

I don't think it's unfair for a trans woman to compete with other women after a year or two after starting medical transition. The point where doctors say there isn't a difference between trans women and cis women in a competitive environment.

The whole "unfairness" argument is mostly from ignorant transphobes.

[Anonymous]

Very hard to answer. If not at all I'd at least propose a transolympics kinda event. I don't really know how those hormones affect a human, but I would let them participate as the gender they transitioned to. A couple of years to adapt should be enough I persume.

[Gedaria]

Sadly they are in the middle. Cannot compete with guys but compete with the girls. I would do like they do in the para Olympics have category for trans...