Should transgender people be allowed in sports for women?

[emmily2396]

It would be unfair because they are still biologially male and many times they win the competitions. I think they should have their own category. And women who went male shouldn't be allowed either because they take male hormones usually which basically in essence is kind of steroids usage.

No

Yes

[Reaperbot666]

even if someone fully transitions their own body. to be like the opposite gender. they still have prenatal hormones. from the gender they are born as. which can affect how they might preform in some activities.

there are rare cases where someone. could be born one gender but not fully develop. into the gender they were meant to be.

like CAIS for instance. Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.
From what I understand, this is how it goes.
During pregnancy, the body is originally going to develop as a male. But due to this condition, it automatically rejects all testosterone. So the body develops as female instead.
The girl who has this condition has all the proper female equipment. Boobs, pussy etc etc. And she identifies as female.
But genetically she is male. Her DNA is male. Males have XY Chromosomes. Females have XX. So these girls are XY.
And she has testicles where her ovaries would usually be. The testosterone these pump out is just automatically turned into more estrogen, which is why the girl becomes so feminine in body shape.
Also, there is just an empty space where the womb would normally be. This is called a blind pouch.
This is most likely a very basic, rough version. I may or may not be correct on this.
But from what I have been reading, this is it, more or less.

[jgokgotit]

The real question here is "Should men who act like women be treated as women?" When phrased that way, the answer is an obvious NO. We need to quit enabling all this transgender and LGBTQ agenda crap and bring them back to reality, which is those born with a penis are male and those born with a vagina are female. There are only 2 genders, both are needed to sustain human life and each one has biological differences that will not change. All the gay agenda LGBTQ crap literally flies in the face of nature, science and faith. People need to admit that being gay or whatever else is a choice, but that their choice does not change their nature. You would not pit men and women against each other in a professional martial arts competition. Same with sports.

[_Jay_]

there actually is no gender. gender is a social construct. there are however 2 sexes. which really dont define a thing. im willing to debate on this.

[ThisDudeHere]

@_Jay_ it's a shame to see someone so young be indoctrinated by this stuff. Wake up. Gender exists. Men and women are different. It's a fact you can deduce by simply looking around.

[_Jay_]

Gendered clothes are literally a social construct. Hairstyles and makeup are literally social construct. Yea women have boobs and hips but like. Those just define biological sex.

[emmily2396]

Another way to look it this: maybe I as an adult i identify as a child, should i be allowed to compete against children?

[Smashingdoozy]

It's a tricky thing. Mostly because trans women who went through male puberty do have that advantage. Though there have been studies that show trans women running time slows with hormone replacement. The Olympics should be inclusive, if you exclude people because of hormone levels then you would need to test everyone. Cis men (above 19) testosterone levels range from 240-950. Cis women testosterone levels are 15-70, this is the range that trans women aim for. However, what about intersex people? 1 in 100 people in the USA is intersex. An identifying intersex female can have 3x the amount of testosterone as a cis female. That's just how she was born, why should she change if she doesn't want to?

If you exclude trans people then you should exclude intersex and people with higher hormone levels, just make it the cis Olympics. Not inclusive at all.

[nathanp97]

The difference is that intersex people aren't getting hormone injections, it is natural. People have different levels of hormones and that is fine. You say there time slows, but those two trans girls who were slow in the male running events were going to state in the female running.

If you want it to be inclusive just have everyone compete together. No female and Male leages.

[Smashingdoozy]

But an intersex person though they identify as female for example could have more testosterone than a trans female so how is that fair?

[emmily2396]

Nobody who wasn't born female should be allowed to compete against women. I could identify as a 10 year old, should I be allowed in children's competitions?

[Smashingdoozy]

We are talking about a real medical thing not made up Tumblr bs.

[Akachan]

I think it depends on when they started their transition. The trans women we see doing women sports right now are the ones who only just started their transition and are already 30-40 so theve fully developed as males. And that's not fair.

For the ones who had started transitioning before/during puberty should be able to compete because they would've been on hormones and all the medication to grow just like females kinda would.

I don't know much about trans man medications so can't give much info on that but I definitely see where you're coming from.

[ThisDudeHere]

There is no such thing. You're born either male or female.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Actually 1 in 50 people are biologically intersex.

[Dansnlawlipop]

That's sex. Has nothing to do with gender.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@Dansnlawlipop I know I was making the point that even if he tries to pull biological facts his claim can't hold water.

[nathanp97]

Biologically there are only two sexes. The presence or absence of a y chromosome determines your sex. Intersex is basically just a genetic disorder where you have more or less sex chromosomes.

However, gender is cultural based, so that can be changed and there can be multiple types.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Biological definitions of the male and female sex apply to other animals besides humans, many of whom have sexes that aren't determined by their karyotype (let alone the presence of a Y chromosome).

[nathanp97]

All animals are classified based on the present absence of a specific chromosome. That is how sex is defined. Generally speaking you can use phenotype to identify the genotype in animal's, as it retains to sex. Science has been moving to determining species based on chromosomes. That is why they think that there are 4 species of giraffe.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 No it isn't. In some animals it's determined by the incubation temperature and others can actually change their sex.

[nathanp97]

So? Humans can't. You are referring to specific cases of species that have developed differences to survive and it is in coded in their DNA to change. Humans aren't built that way. Intersex people can't even reproduce through natural means, in most cases. You are confusing a genetic disorder with a different sex. Your logic basically implies that people with down syndrome are a different species because they have an extra chromosome the same way that you imply an extra sex chromosome makes you a new sex. Most intersex people have some negative effect as a result, whether it be infertility of some kind, harder time having kids, or something more extreme or minor.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 You can call it a genetic disorder but if they can't be fit into what makes something male or female, they're intersex.

[Liam_Hayden]

@Ad_Quid_Orator That was a 2000 study and it said "as much as 1.7%. More recent studies say it is far less.

www.webmd.com/.../study-about-1-in-1000-babies-born-intersex

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@Liam_Hayden The study you cited only included people identified at birth while the 2000 study included diagnosis that occurred later in life so of course the one you cited will find fewer intersex people.

[Dansnlawlipop]

@ad_quid_otator i agree with you. My reply was to OP

[nathanp97]

But they do fit into the definition of male or female. Humans like most animals have there sex determined by the presence or absence of a y chromosome. What don't you understand?

[Dansnlawlipop]

@nathanp97. You don't realize you're incorrect. There are no binaries in sex. Its settled science until there's evidence to prove otherwise.

[nathanp97]

Yes, there is. Sex isn't gender. Google how sex is determined. Read it in a textbook. It is determined by the y chromosome in humans, just like most animals. Social science has no bearing on genetics/sex.

[Daniel_Dano]

@Ad_Quid_Orator there is no such thing , only 1 in 50 is retarded

[Dansnlawlipop]

I think you should be the one to Google what you believe you have correct, as you're wrong on what is used to determine sex as well as that there are only two sexes. But if you have evidence to suggest otherwise that, has been peer reviewed, I'd like to take a look at it if you don't mind sending me the link (s).

[nathanp97]

Best I can do since I'm not subscribed to any scientific article database. www.nature.com/.../

Go down to the mammals section

[ThisDudeHere]

the fuck... people are still arguing over a blatantly obvious fact?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Correction; it is primarily (but not exclusively) determined by what chromosomes they have. Do you understand yet?

But even if you're going to go off that definition there are individuals with chimerism where some of their cells have XX chromosomes while others have XY.

[nathanp97]

Sex is based on chromosomes in humans. You keep referencing genetic disorders and also a twin in taking another. You are basically implying that down syndrome individuals aren't human, because you are saying having a different chromosome 23 makes you a different gender.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Actually you're the one saying everything is determined by chromosomes so if you're going to say that if someone doesn't have a Y chromosome, they're not a male then you'd also have to argue that because someone has a chromosomal disorder in their autosomes, they're not human.

[nathanp97]

Biological y chromosome determines sex. I am not saying that because I am saying they are that sex, but they have a genetic disorder. I don't have an issue with them being referred to as hermaphrodites, but that isn't a new sex, it is just a mix of the two. Something already found in nature. People with all one type that have a y chromosome are male. Keep in mind you are arguing like a Republican who is against abortion. "What about the cases where a women gets an abortion at 9 months? Do you think that's okay." It obviously isn't, but they take a small amount of cases where that happens and tries to make it the focus of a debate, and they are talking about lives, while you argue about terminology. Lol

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Again, sex is primarily but not exclusively determined by chromosomes in humans. You can call it a "genetic disorder" but in animals that are intersex, the ability to switch sexes probably started out as what we would call a genetic disorder which brings me to the crux of the argument: you can call it a "genetic disorder" but that doesn't mean that they can be categorized as male or female from a biological perspective. And most Republicans are absolutely opposed to abortion while Democrats think there are situations it should be allowed (most oppose 3rd trimester abortions). Just like here, you're saying sex is only binary while I'm saying ti depends on the situation so no, you're the one who sees this in black and white like the Republicans.

[modelUN242]

@Ad_Quid_Orator Do you have proof, I don't believe that one bit.

[nathanp97]

In humans it is. Non of those animals are mammals. The problem with your logic is that most extra ot missing sex linked chromosome can't produce offspring and of those that can it isn't transferable. What you are talking about is a likely alteration within the chromosomes, not by having extra. We aren't plants lol.

If they have a y chromosome they are male. That is how it is defined.

Most Republicans will use the argument that abortion is wrong and use a very rare case of women wanting an abortion at 9 months. And if you agree that that is wrong than you are a hypocrite because you are saying a women doesn't have a right to her body. So do women have the right to their body period (no pun intended) or do they not? + lots of Democrats now believe a women should always have that right. Regardless of the trimester.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Hermaphrodity is rare but widespread among animals meaning it has arisen multiple times and there isn't a reason to think it couldn't do in a mammal. And again, the biological definition of male versus female doesn't just apply to mammals so that's a non-sequitur on your part. And most Democrats are opposed to third trimester abortions. www.americamagazine.org/.../new-poll-big-majorities-democrats-and-young-people-reject-late-term

@modelUN242 Proof of what?

[nathanp97]

It is rare and not very common. Only a few species we know of do it. In mammals it may develop, but I doubt it would ever in humans, as there isn't any evolutionary reason for it, nor is there any selection of people who can.

I'm well aware that almost all species have male and female, but a mammal is very different from a reptile, fish or insect. You can't use there sex switch or way of choosing sex and apply it to people. Yes, some people have cells that are other xy and xx, but those people would be classified as being both. Aside from that there are only two sexes, and even referring to them as hermaphrodites would be hard because it isn't heritable, which would likely be a criteria for them to be classified as true hermaphrodites. It is all a genetic disorder. I don't see how you don't understand that. You do realize most fetus with this chromosome issue results in a miscarriage.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 And fish, reptiles and insects have many differences from one another but the definitions of male versus female apply to all of them and hermaphrodism isn't always inherited in them either. And just calling it a genetic disorder doesn't mean that thew individuals can be categorized as male versus female; is that really so hard to understand.

[nathanp97]

Excluding people who have both male and female cells you classify them based on the presence or absence of the Y chromosome. If a species is a hermaphrodite it is a heritable trait. If it wasn't they wouldn't be referred to as hermaphrodites. Yes male and female apply to most organisms, but you are proving my point. Sex is binary, and only hermaphrodites are classified as something different, but the differences is that it is both. Having an extra or missing chromosome is a non heritable genetic disorder that often has negative side effect, and often those fetuses are miscarried because the body recognizes there is a problem. I don't know what you don't get. It is a very straightforward concept. The y chromosome in all mammals determine sex and if a hermaphrodite exists it is both because some cells have the presence of the y chromosome, while others have an absence of a y chromosome.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Again, the idea that "hermaphrodism" is inherited in other animals is completely untrue. In fact, depending on the environmental conditions some can even switch sexes post-maturity. And again having or not having a Y chromosome doesn't make an animal (including a human) male or female by the biological definition of sex despite you conjecturing it ad nauseum. The presence or absence of the Y chromosome is the primary determinant of sex but it doesn't dictate what sex and individual is. Is this distinction honestly so hard for you to make?

And no, chimerism isn't the only cause of hermaphrodism; see you don't know what you're talking out.

[nathanp97]

Yes, but those aren't called hermaphrodites and they have that in coded in their DNA. Humans don't. We aren't talking about species that aren't even relatively close to humans. How do you not get that.

Also I'm well aware there that chimerism isn't the only method. You obviously aren't paying attention, because I already stated some of the other ways in previous comments and one was actually more focused on an even decided, which is when I'd argue would be more of a true hermaphrodite.

You aren't paying attention and you obviously don't have a good grasp on this concept as you are resorting to insults, wo we should just agree to disagree because we aren't getting anywhere.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 An individual having hermaphrodism is also coded in their DNA. I mean it's in the title that you used: GENETIC disorder. And in your previous comment you stated: " The y chromosome in all mammals determine sex and if a hermaphrodite exists it is both because some cells have the presence of the y chromosome, while others have an absence of a y chromosome." We can agree to disagree but that doesn't change the fact that your argument fails at basic biology.

[nathanp97]

Yes, but it isn't heritable in humans. Do some research. + I was referring to people with xxy, xO, xxx, etc...

Bud your argument goes against basic biology. And you keep relating my argument to hermaphrodites when I wasn't referring to them. Your inability to follow a conversation that you can even reread is sad. Reading comprehension definitely isn't your strong suit bud.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Yes it can be "inherited" but it's autosomal recessive so it won't pop up in everyone in the family. Again, this is basic biology and you referred to hermaphrodites in your previous comment.

[nathanp97]

In humans a true hermaphrodite has both some sells with xx and some with xy (can have another xxx or xxy, etc... alternatively or can have one as an extra). It isn't heritable because the gametes would produce an x or a y chromosome as its 23 chromosome. A hermaphrodite forms in humans when the something like an xxy divides into an xx and xy at some point or if a fetus absorbs its twin. Having an xxy for example doesn't make you a hermaphrodite, so if that's what you're getting at you're wrong, + most of those can't even reproduce.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@nathanp97 Again, the term "true hermaphrodite" doesn't just apply to humans and it does include animals where hermaphrodism isn't caused by chimerism. Now you've been reduced to circular reasoning.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

But now that you're going in circles, this conversation's not going anywhere. I'm done wasting my time with you.

[nathanp97]

SMH, I'm done talking to the ill informed today

[Liam_Hayden]

@Ad_Quid_Orator The 2000 study is a guess and says "as much as 1.7%" In any event, I have no issue with people who are genuinely intersex. I do have a problem with 6' tall 175 lbs biological males competing in races with girls.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@Liam_Hayden Well after hormone replacement they'll be physiologically female and races aren't subdivided by height.

[OlderAndWiser]

If they had their own competitions, only the others trans and SJWs would attend.

[The_Other]

😤 Absolutely... If you're a man who loves beating up women but holds back a lot because it's illegal, or hate seeing woman progress in life, fear not, we've got you covered, you can now legally beat up a woman all you want, and you can discourage them from engaging in an activity they love, all you have to do is say you're a woman and go join a women's combat sports and fracture their eye socket, and join other sports that requires a lot of physical strength and stamina and utterly dominate them.

Testosterone!!! 💪💪💪

[AcidT0y]

No, it's fucking ridiculous how far this has gone. All you have to do is say you're a woman and the world just kind of goes with it. No hate to anyone with gender dismorphia but there are biological differences that aren't just going to go away.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

so you admit that they are still man and not girls, right? ;)

[AcidT0y]

No fucking idea at this point but either way I couldn't give a shit 😂

[emmily2396]

It's in your Dna, you can't change that. Plus they undergo puberty as men, which means the sex change surgeries won't fix their bigger lung capacity or hips size and shape which give them an advantage at running and cycling. It also won't fix that men tend to have more developed fast-twitch fibers which are good at lifting heavy or doing something that requires a sudden urge of a lot of power like sprinting or jumping high. Women have better developed slow-twitch fiber which are better for endurance.

[BehindTheMist]

As a track and field and cross country athlete myself, I think allowing transgender people to participate in women's sports is extremely unfair to people who are biologically female! Men's bodies naturally have an advantage over women. I wouldn't even bother competing anymore if they allowed this because I would never have a chance to win.

[BehindTheMist]

I do believe transgender people should be treated equally, but in this case, it would be unfair towards people who are biologically female to allow transgender people to participate in women's sports.

[NarutoUzumaki007]

I strongly believe that there should be a separate category for transgender people.
If we can have two categories : men and women , why not a third one?

Some pussies know they can't compete with real men so they go and hijack the women category when they are clearly biologically stronger. It's very unfair to women

[NarutoUzumaki007]

the big sports organisations are not establishing a third category because that would increase their budget and expenses , they don't care anymore whether sports is fair or not

[Synikal]

I do not believe they should. They have been men who undergone the procedures just to win against women. Even in matches of boxing and have horribly injured their opponents. Why fight the opposite gender when if you were born a man and changed your sex, unable to fight men still? If I am a man and open as day claim to be a woman from here on out do I have the right to fight women when there is a clear difference in our stature? I am not going to belittle women. I have seen some amazing fighters on both ends. It is just my prospective.

[modelUN242]

Absolutely not, that's cheating, they have a biological advantage, stronger muscles, more testosterone, that's why they always win. Also, if I was a guy and decided to be "transgender" I would win a lot more medals and prize money in the female competition compared to the male.

[Adam1978]

I think it's fine if the minority that can't be identified can compete in the men league or if there was a female league that was better in that one. Or sports could just drop the whole gender thing and let the best win. Sure it would be men in almost all cases.

[ZackBan]

Yeah I no they definitely shouldn't. Just because they "identify" as a certain sex doesn't really change their sex.
As far as sports go it's always been divided for a reason and should stay that way.
Maybe let trans people into competitions of their original biological gendre and definitely forbid hormonal steriods no matter the cause.

[lilyanony1]

Personally because of the physical advantages I personally believe just like they have paras Olympics they should have categories for transgender. It's unfair.
And any transgender woman would be told of their physical advantages.
I don't know why it's so hard to accept but the bottom line is they are transgender own it. We live in a society that really doesn't care. Normalise accepting transgender and whatever form they come in is irrelevant. They're the person presented in front of you.

[Emcalcuadrado0]

No matter what you feel, biologically, men and women are different (wow what a shock I know...) So even if you feel like a woman or man, you're not one, and your physical capabilities aren't equal either, just because how we're built. Don't expect a female gorila to be as strong as a silverback patriarch.

So in short, no. The same rules that make normal men and women different sports category also rules out trans , whatever they are (M-F or F-M)

[R3DthatDude]

Don’t matter what you think you are, if your body thinks it’s male and develops as a male, you are at an advantage. If you go through surgery and take pills just to take that advantage away, but then you need to train to get better, your just making things complicated for yourself.

[hellacray]

No they should not.

But... I do think it's pretty funny. I mean hey it's women that came up with the whole gender identity thing. And how there's like millions of genders.

If a guy idenitifies as a woman and everyone is cool with it. Then yeah let that trans woman compete with the other women.

Again it shouldn't be allowed. But I think it would be hilarious that both male and female sports are dominated by men.

[ColHathi]

I think it's fine that they're allowed to compete, but on fair grounds. If they're taking something that will affect their performance, obviously that's a problem. If their biological gender factors into their performance, then it might be best to have them only compete against others of that same biological gender - at least professionally.

[QuietRunner]

Why shouldn't be allow these transgendered people to complete in sports for women? Are we now saying they don't matter and can be excluded from certain areas of life? Are LGBTQ+ rights human rights? Don't we want to be fair and equitable?

Or should there be solid, lines of discrimination that we don't cross in society? Maybe we should give the transgender people separate but equal sports.

[ThisDudeHere]

How is it fair that a person, who identifies as female, but for all intents and purposes, is effectively male with all of the physical advantages that that brings, competes against women?

[emmily2396]

It's like saying that an adult that identifies as a child should be allowed in children's sports... you can identify as whatever you want these days...

[honestGUY45]

Your last line contradicts everything else you were pandering about. If you truly believe excluding them from something based on their gender is discrimination, why suggest giving them a separate category? Think McFly, think!

[Gedaria]

I tend to look at this from the para Olympics.. They have different classification depending on the disability. Same with transgender. I'm not saying it's a disability but it's the difference between the two.
Because it's the difference between a transgender woman to a transgender man , going by the way people look at it. The weakness of a transgender woman man to the strength of a transgender man.. they should equal each other out. So they have their own race...

[DWornock]

It would probably be okay up to the age of ten or maybe even twelve, but after that, the size and strength difference is too great.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is tried. However, after the transgender males are winning all the contests and girls start dropping out of sports in droves, I expect the experiment will come to a screeching halt.

[SuccessfulHornDog]

This creates a dilemma for those who are adamant that transgenders are actually the gender that they identify with. If you are teaching kids in school that a woman with a penis and scrotum is a female then you can't prevent them from competing as females

[Daniel3035]

Probably not they have a biological advantage ie a woman weighs less than a man so they tend to be lighter and can run for longer. A man can throw a spear further than a woman due to more muscle. Even if transgender you still hold those qualities.
If it was male transgender as one or male and originally male transgender and vice versa that should be fine.
But it’s not really a sport if you ask a cheetah to race a turtle. It should be cheetah vs cheetah or turtle vs turtle.