I think Trans Athletes should have to be on their hormonal therapy for several years before they can compete with their Cis counterparts, but other than that i see no issue.
the olympics are over i guess. there will be backlash to this. these are MEN and nothing can change that. no hormones do not make them into women.
gender is not something you can self identify , its a fact of nature
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Anonymous
(18-24)
+1 y
There still physically a man, so it wouldn’t be fair to the other women who are physically women because in most cases most men tend to have more muscle and tend to be more built for certain sports
How could anyone not have known that this was going to happen? "Trans-women" - they're not women, they're just men who decided for reasons I will never understand to cut their dicks off. This is just so stupid.
@CelineBV i have a MyTake on equality vs equity, but from the majority of the comments people made on it, i see that most of the people aren't capable of reaching that far yet. People need to learn how to think properly, but very few teachers teach that. So, i can't really blame people for not knowing how to do it.
@NorthwestRider I was going to accuse you of lying but I looked it up and you are right. I am in shock. I suppose I should not be given that they have reduced the female population with all the beheadings and stonings they do.
None, these events have rules regarding hormone levels, not every man claiming himself to be a woman can participate in them, there are rules first.
The discussion is now if these rules are fair, which I don't know therefore no opinion.
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Anonymous
(18-24)
+1 y
I think it's kinda dumb to allow some guy posing as a female into the FEMALE Olympics. But what can we do? We are reaching a point of no return these days.
All that LGBT took a huge shit on their own lawn that started growing and they can't tidy it up now. Their ideology is eating them from the inside. It's good, maybe we'll finally get rid of them some time in the future
Tell that to the real woman who takes 2nd place competing against a biológical male. She and the other Olympian’s worked their asses off their entire life for this moment. This is like letting some openly take steroids with no consequence.
Trans women almost always crush real women when they compete against them in sports. This includes combat sports. There was trans woman called Fallon Fox (Google it) who was knocking out women a few years ago.
But again it’s about “equality” so who cares right?
Cus it doesn't affect you personally. If u get raped in girls toilet by shemale, and people say is all good cus its girl on girl, then it might make u think but until then. All good. All coming with time.
@rounddablock this is simply untrue. Their testosterone levels have to be checked and have to be below a certain number. Which is often lower than the average biological woman in sports. There's unfair advantages all over sports. NBA Basketball players are fucking tall, American football players are stocky, some champion runners and swimmers have greater lung capacity than the average person competing in the same sport. Trans women aren't smashing the competition, more often than not they are actually losing and working 10x harder to get into things
Doesn't matter if their testosterones levels are low. Any time spent living with normal male testosterone levels still changes things like bone and muscle density.
" NBA Basketball players are fucking tall, American football players are stocky, some champion runners and swimmers have greater lung capacity than the average person competing in the same sport." So lets not even have a women's division at all, right? If all the other differences are acceptable then separating men and women is wrong. If the women are typically weak, then they will fail and the best will win. Is that what we should do?
“Trans women aren't smashing the competition” Except for all those times where transwomen have been smashing women’s records.
Do you have facts to back that up? I got plenty of facts to the contrary. How about Fallon fox who had a 5 -1 record fighting other women in MMA. “She” started fight at 37 which is very ancient in that sport. She knocked out or submitted all her female opponents. She had no background in high level wrestling, kickboxing or jiu jitsu.
Or how about the two “female” HS sprinters in Connecticut (who didn’t even have transgender surgery or hormone therapy) who both shattered records and easily took 1st and 2nd place at the HS state championships (there is a documentary called “8th place” about a girl who lost her college scholarship thanks to those two pushing her out of placing).
Or how about the Canadian transgender “Rachel McKinnon” who won a gold medal in cycling?
Sure you will occasionally have a few trans women lost to real women. But they definitely have an advantage.
I’m libertarian which I don’t care what you do just as long as you don’t hurt me or other people. If someone wants to “identify” as a woman well the more power to them. But when they are harming/cheating other people (and they are) then it’s time to draw the line.
We have yet to see a “trans man” win a major sporting event competing against biological males. That isn’t “bigotry”. It’s plain hard cold facts.
@rounddablock Fallon Fox, well obviously she didn't knock out all of her opponents because she lost one fight. 5-1 isn't astounding Norma Dumon a cis woman has 6-1, Andrea Lee 12-5, Ketlen Vieira 11-2. Pretty average really. If she had of had experience with mma pre transition you would be complaining about her advantage there.
"Connecticut is one of 17 states that allow transgender high school athletes to compete without restrictions" I mean it's high school, so who actually cares. I personally don't think they should be allowed to compete without HRT.
Rachel McKinnon, it is a requirement for her testosterone levels to be kept low to be able to compete.
But anyway, we are talking about the Olympics as per the question. in which case "Athletes would also be required to demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nanomoles per liter for at least 12 months prior to their first competition - with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition.
An athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category."
@Smashingdoozy were you born with ovaries? If you weren’t than I promise not to be rude. But I’m curious.
But the fact you know so much about testosterone levels and competition is something either A) a kinesiology major would understand B) a man devoted fitness and/or bodybuilding would know or C) someone trying to use pseudoscience trying to justify a travesty or last but least D) you are transgendered and have the logical mindset of a man
I just don’t see a “cisgendered” woman who has such particular detailed information on a specialty topic such as testosterone levels being in a favor of having “trans” women competing against real women. But hey maybe you’re different.
In a way I can’t almost get mad at you if it’s option C by the way. The AMA is rewriting its medical standards lately to fit woke ideology. 10 years ago this would of been completely unheard of. But considering how a major “science institution such as the CDC and Anthony Fauci changed their guidelines to fit the Biden Administrations political stances I now question the true “non partisan” judgment of the bureaucratic institutions.
In reality this is completely terrifying. But it’s not the first time this has happened in history. Many communist institutions have changed their “scientific” standards and procedures to meet the demands of the state. The Soviet Union hideously did this during the Chernobyl catastrophe.
Anyway what I said above may sound like a long stretch. But still I vehemently disagree with you that just because these trans women are having their testosterone levels that magically puts them on a level playing field as real biológical women.
All in all I really hope “Laurel” Hubbard wins it all at the Olympics. Seriously. I’m sure plenty of 43 year old women who were born with ovaries could win gold medals in weight lifting (cough)
Also for the other 8 guys and 3 girls who disagree with smashingdoozy please remain intransigent. The left doesn’t win my majority. Know they win by a very loud and rabidly fanatical minority that won’t shut up so finally just to keep them happy people cave in to this insanity.
What was radical 5 years ago is mainstream now. What is radical now will be mainstream 5 years from now. I predict multiple “trans athletes” will enter high levels of competition. It will get to the point that biológical women won’t even be able to medal anymore. Sounds like a stretch but it’s not.
It's called doing research it really wasn't that hard. I am an ally and a part of LGBT and have a few transgender friends. I do my research because transphobes like yourself are too lazy to.
Yeah women over 40 have won gold medals in weight lifting... Seriously dude it takes like 2 min to do research Milena Grigorova was 47 when she won gold.
Your looking at biased research, this is a brand new phenomenon and any real scientists will tell you there isn't enough data. But they don't want to wait so they are willing to use women's sports for their tests. Lets see how many more biological woman's skulls get fractured before you realize that the slowest and weakest men that competed against other men transition to women and break records and distroy the fastest and strongest women.
Organized Sports may be the only institution where segregation actually produces a fairer competitive environment. This is why we have weight classes in boxing, and men don't compete against women. Athleticism is based on SIZE, Strength, and speed. So if transwomen are on average taller, or heavier than Women. They have a competitive advantage in sports based on athleticism
@berseek945 stating facts is not bias research. Did you even read what I wrote?
You obviously know nothing about MMA if you think the only time a woman's face has been fractured was by a trans woman. Broken bones are a common thing in fighting sports. Do the damn research you look stupid.
@cjmtherfcker like I said before advantages in sports are common and normal.
Michael Phelps is double jointed and has 15% more bendability than his opponents. He also has massive hands and feet which act as human flippers. He swims at 6mph while the average swimmer swims at 2mph.
Boban Marjanovic is one of the tallest players in basketball and also has really massive hands. He doesn't even have to jump to shoot.
Eero Mäntyranta a skier in the 60s had a disease called primary familial and congenital polycythemia, this meant his blood could hold 50% more oxygen. Which gave him a massive boost in endurance.
Usain Bolt is thought to have a specific gene ACTN3 or sprinters gene which produces more fast-twitch muscle fibers.
Matthias Schlitte has Klippel-Trénaunay-Weber syndrome which causes bone and tissue to overgrow. He used it to his advantage and took up arm wrestling. His right arm measures at 18.1 inches and his left it "normal". He barely trained and also defeated an arm wrestling robot.
Now I could go on and on and on but I think you get the point.
@Smashingdoozy when we start seeing trans men compete against biológical men at very high levels of competition (collegiately and beyond) THEN and only then will I buy your argument that hormone therapy “levels the playing field”.
I give you kudos for all research you did. However you are still arguing a fallacy though. But seriously if Laurel Hubbard wins the Olympic women’s weight lifting competition then I think the entire world should ask the 2nd, 3rd and 4th place true female finishers for their honest opinions about this (if they can get over their fear of being canceled for telling the truth).
@Smashingdoozy Chris Mosier PARTICIPATED in a men’s competition but did NOT place or certainly did not win a championship. He’s got balls (pun intended) to try doing this as a former female. But still anyone can try out at the Olympic trials. Different story if you actually make the team, place or take home a gold.
Okay he did. I reread it, but race walking is definitely not the same as marathon running, power lighting and especially MMA fighting.
He’s got my respect for his efforts and achievements. But still this not a true one to one comparison especially for sports that demand extreme athletic power. Race walking does require physical and mental stamina but it’s not at all the same kind of athletic exertion as doing a power snatch, 100 meter dash or talking or throwing power punch’s to someone’s jaw.
Again you did your homework. I also appreciate you trying to argue with logic (not what I’m used to seeing). I’ve gained respect for doing that. But I still disagree with you.
Well done for pointing out that different sports are well... Different... Love how you ignore the other two though 😌 just say you want an excuse to be a transphobic misogynist and more on my dude.
You know I was about to say “thank you for doing your research. You have given me pause on some things and to be fair I should read up on what you posted.”
But you then just HAD to throw in the “transphobic misogynist” comment didn’t you? Despite me never directly calling you any names or slurs during this entire debate you just had to throw that shit didn’t you? Just couldn’t resist huh?
For a brief moment you were acting out of character and doing a good job of not living up to the stereotype... until you weren’t. Smdh.
Those aren't slurs. They're terms which seem fitting given your reaction. You're choosing to get offended by it now (even though I called you a transphobe before) because I've proven wrong every single point you've made. You refuse to do actual research outside of stupid Facebook posts, first google article and Joe Rogan. You misread information and make it fit your ideas. Try be a little more open, read things twice, 3 times even, do more research. I think you'll find that people who have actually studied this stuff know a tad bit more than you and I and we should trust their opinion on the matter.
@Still-alive “ Those aren't slurs. They’re terms which seem fitting given your reaction. ”.
The hell they aren’t “slurs”. They are leftist invented “progressive” stop phrases that are used to disparage, silence and dismiss dissenting opinions. It’s Marxist bullshit and more and more people are wising up to this crap.
Also it’s funny how you say that I’m “misogynist” when I’m trying to defend biológical women competing in sports. I got a feeling that the trans movement and modern feminism are going to have an increasingly more awkward time coexisting.
But the greatest insane irony is for a split second I started gaining respect for you because you were seemingly sticking to a lógical argument up until the very end. Why did you choose to end everything with an insult immediately after I admitted I was gaining respect for you? Nice going. For real. But the very second you start throwing out labels and insults despite the opposing party never saying a thing you make it personal.
Don’t do that. Stick to the debating the person’s opinion vs. personally hating them. Some people are smart enough to know that just because someone disagrees with you it doesn’t mean they hate you. But in my experience people on the left struggle to comprehend that.
Also don’t take someone who seems to be reconsidering their opinion as a sign of “weakness” and then proceed to pounce. When you do that it shows you care more about BEING right vs. WHAT is right.
I care about WHAT is right. I couldn’t give two shits about choices people make in their personal lives. But the second I see their actions (trans women competing) harming/cheating other people i. e. “cis”gendered female athletes than I get angry.
Apparently you don't actually care what is right, because I stated what is right and you disagreed with me stating those facts?
Did you care about women's sports before? Have you discussed and advocated against the systematic sexism in sports against women? The objectification of women on and off the field? What about the sexual assault many dealt with? Or do you only suddenly care now that trans women are involved?
You want them to be excluded because they are trans, because they are different. You don't care about the facts because the facts don't align with your thoughts.
@Smashingdoozy you know that the vast majority of women disagree with transwomen in women's sports! Even Catlin Jenner said its not fair and she is a transwoman.
I highly doubt you competed professionally if both the men and women competed together.
Well mine I competed pro mma and I fought on national TV twice. I remember very well if the sacrifice, blood, sweat, nerves and criticism from morons I had to go through while I was completely involved. It was no joke.
I’ve met and trained with several female fighters by the way. I never once “not cared” about them or judged them any less or sexualized them competing. They had to deal with some drawbacks but they also had some benefits. The good looking ones could easily get modeling work and were very marketable. They made easy side cash.
Anyway your criticism of female athletes being victims of “patriarchy” is about as weak sauce as the wage gap debate in 2021. It’s infinitely more complicated than that. The women’s soccer team is paid much less then men BECAUSE MUCH FEWER PEOPLE BUY TICKETS. It’s simple economics.
But getting back to the transgender issue. I having trained with several women and men who were the same size and there is definitely a difference in not only strength but reaction speed, agility and grip coordination. There are difference in bone density.
To me this is like an athlete who gets a “therapeutic exemption pass” to take free testosterone since his natural levels are low. A few years ago very high level fighters like Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen were legally allowed to take steroids so their testosterone levels were within “normal range”
And what happened? These guys were noticeably shredded and competing a much higher level then they should be at their ages. Finally the USADA banned this and these guys shrunk like deflated balloons.
Those guys though were at the time getting hormone therapy to what was considered “normal” and yet they clearly had an advantage.
These trans athletes might be getting tested but even though they are “passing” the acceptable levels it sure as hell doesn’t negate some of the non testable advantages they have with the XY chromosome.
And every last sport those people participate in is segregated by sex. You have to destroy the whole segregation argument to make this work for TRANS. All that gets you to is Open divisions
Actually I am going to ask us to back up for a second.
You actually peaked my curiosity earlier when you brought up the FTM athletes. I planned to say “thanks I need a sometime to read about those” and peace out for a bit until you pissed me off with that “transphobic misogynist” comment. You actually had a impressive position in this debate until that happened.
I don’t want to go back to the spats. Let’s pretend you didn’t say that (you should apologize but we both know you won’t) and let’s get back to the sources you brought up earlier.
If you can be so kind to list them for me (including the FTM athlete names) i will do my due diligence and read them.
But asking me to back so I can reread all your personal slights is a tall order. So please list them. If you don’t want to list them again then peace out. I’ll agree to disagree. But just saying I had a split second of curiosity.
I actually just wanna say before I go because I'm over this post. I think you or someone mentioned having gone through male puberty is the advantage. Simple fix for that, everyone goes on puberty blockers until they know what their gender is. Puberty blockers aren't harmful at all and are used commonly in children to stop early puberty.
@Still-alive “ Simple fix for that, everyone goes on puberty blockers until they know what their gender is. Puberty blockers aren't harmful at all and are used commonly in children to stop early puberty.”
Omg wow. Wooow. Brav fucking O. Let’s do another standing ovation like your buddy still-alive above. Nothing wrong at all giving young children puberty blockers. Totally 100% long term safe, proven and effective. Oh yes that was the grand finale everybody needed.
Now you have taken the mask off I’m so glad for earnest agenda and how you reveal your true self. So proud of your upstanding selfless character. You are true example for all of us. Just keep fighting the good fight.
It does not matter if they test T levels. They had male hormones for most of their lives, and built up their muscles before deciding to swing the other way. So they already have far better strength than most women. And that does not disappear when they alter.
It's not that simple. It's completely unfair to athletes that are born women. Even with surgery and hormone therapy, a person born in a male body that transitions to a woman - especially a professional athlete - will almost always have a natural physical advantage over biological women. That's just basic science.
"Biological" is science and a scientific term. In fact, there's a whole branch of science dedicated to biological studies. Surprisingly, it's called "biology".
You're not "assigned" anything at birth biologically. Your either born with female anatomy or your born with male anatomy (with very few rare exceptions, like being born with both or none). That's science, and specifically, biology. People want to "assign" social-political terminology to biological science. It's inaccurate and nonsensical.
Ok, thank you for educating me. They're is still likely more people than that, who just don't know they are intersex. It's called but being a bitch and accepting that you don't know everything.
That higher percentage was discredited, the same way as "vaccinations cause autism" was discredited. Regardless, it's still a matter of biological science at the time of birth. That doesn't mean individual people aren't able to make personal decisions about themselves later in life. 👍
@zelda_5 they are brainwashing you kids aren’t they? Did a school teacher tell you this?
Some day you might find a biological male who identifies as a “female” showering and changing with you in the woman’s locker room. Tell me how comfortable that will make you feel.
No teacher has told me anything about trans people. If a trans woman is in the locker room, I might be slightly uncomfortable, but no more than with a cis woman. If a trans man was in the changing room, I'd be terribly uncomfortable. Trans people generally go with the one of the gender that pass better as as to avoid bullying. I will not care.
@rounddablock I understand your sentiment, but you're bringing up a different argument. Someone simply being "uncomfortable" in a bathroom and/or in a locker room situation isn't the same as an unfair physical competitive advantage a transitioned female professional athlete has over a biological female professional athlete.
There T levels may be low at the time of test but they were changing his body his entire life, and that changed is permanent. There is no reversing that.
Even Kaitlin Jenner, I biological man trans said its unfair!
@NYCQuestions1976 yeah but I just notice a bigger trend here. About 95%+ of the young women on here (teens to early 20s) always seem to parrot woke philosophy. They are being TAUGHT that crap. If it’s not through teachers (although it often it is) is through entertainment and messaging geared to brainwash young kids. THAT is the problem I have.
There is not logical person on earth who can truly factually argue that a biological man competing against biological women is fair. It’s a disgusting travesty
@rounddablock Oh I don't doubt or dispute the thoroughly ridiculous "woke" agenda. I'm just stating that there's a difference between simply being uncomfortable and an unfair physical competitive advantage based on anatomical biology at birth.
@NYCQuestions1976 right. But it’s quite selfish that some of these women are like “who cares”. They don’t understand that this is only the beginning and some day this trans crap will directly impact them. A more likely scenario would be a biológical male who identified as a “woman” sharing a bathroom, locker room or even a shower with biological women.
When are we going to draw the line? From what I’ve seen the left almost always ultimately wins. They are never satisfied.
You just don’t see too many “trans men” competing in male sports. Also I haven’t heard of biological women who I identify as “male” going into men’s locker rooms to often. I’m sure there are some rare exceptions. But why is it that so many more biological men want to “trans over” to the female space.
Male prisoners the state of California can now request to be transferred to women’s prisons if they identify as “female”. I don’t know about you but if I got put away I would much rather be in a woman’s prison vs a men’s. Not too bad of scenario all things considered.
I'm tired of arguing for people's rights. In the ideal world, we wouldn't separate by gender. There would be less people in prison too. Oh no, people are being "brainwashed" into believing people need rights, we're all gonna die! /Sar
Playing professional sports is a privilege that's earned. It's not a right. I can't suit up for the New York Giants or New York Yankees simply because I happen to exist. People are entitled to rights, but they're not entitled to privileges. Privileges are earned based on merit, not existence.
Not against biological women, because transgender women have an unfair biological advantage from birth. Even with surgery and hormone therapy, the testosterone that transgender women are born with doesn't just go away or cease to exist. Adding estrogen via injection doesn't make testosterone in the body inactive. Again, that's basic science and biology.
Whether you call it hormone therapy or hormone blockers, that's just semantics. A transgender woman on hormones will still produce more testosterone than a biological woman. During regular everyday life that we all live, it doesn't matter... but in the context of women's professional sports? It's a completely unfair disadvantage to biological women athletes.
Hormone blockers block the majority of the sex hormones that are naturally occurring in the body. A trans women would likely be on those as well as estrogen to lower T and therefore dysphoria.
Hormone blockers don't rid the body of testosterone, just like drinking a marijuana masker ahead of a test doesn't rid the body of marijuana. Marion Jones was banned from track and field for using testosterone. It's an unfair biological competitive advantage.
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I think Trans Athletes should have to be on their hormonal therapy for several years before they can compete with their Cis counterparts, but other than that i see no issue.
Trans only leagues, or skill games only are the only fair models
that's still not enough even with hormones. they have the bone density and mass of a male
the olympics are over i guess. there will be backlash to this. these are MEN and nothing can change that. no hormones do not make them into women.
gender is not something you can self identify , its a fact of nature
There still physically a man, so it wouldn’t be fair to the other women who are physically women because in most cases most men tend to have more muscle and tend to be more built for certain sports
Oh damn! How come no one saw that coming? I can't say that i did, i have other things to do, like living my life
How could anyone not have known that this was going to happen? "Trans-women" - they're not women, they're just men who decided for reasons I will never understand to cut their dicks off. This is just so stupid.
They don't even have to do that. Just tucking it in and taking hormones is all they need.
Some weight lifter did it to break all the records and then whipped it all back out to go back to being male.
We all knew where this was headed, but we couldn't speak of it.
This provision moves the Olympics farther toward becoming a circus.
never trust international institutions
I get equality and all, but there are limits we must set
We are moving towards a very dysfunctional era
Women will regret this soon... 🤷♂️
This equality has gone too far. I think the right terms in life real that should be applied are equity and fairness.
@CelineBV i have a MyTake on equality vs equity, but from the majority of the comments people made on it, i see that most of the people aren't capable of reaching that far yet.
People need to learn how to think properly, but very few teachers teach that. So, i can't really blame people for not knowing how to do it.
Feminism, much like communism, is a snake that eats itself while it is poisoning itself. Women are reaping what they have been sewing for generations.
"Can now?" If I'm not mistaken, most of the Eastern European and at one time East German female weight lifters have been trans since the 1950's.
Iran allows trans women to been their women national soccer team as well
www.india.com/.../
@NorthwestRider Really? Homophobic/transphobic Iran? I thought they hanged trans women.
In 2008, the BBC reported that Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except Thailand. Iran is soo weird
@NorthwestRider I was going to accuse you of lying but I looked it up and you are right. I am in shock. I suppose I should not be given that they have reduced the female population with all the beheadings and stonings they do.
None, these events have rules regarding hormone levels, not every man claiming himself to be a woman can participate in them, there are rules first.
The discussion is now if these rules are fair, which I don't know therefore no opinion.
I think it's kinda dumb to allow some guy posing as a female into the FEMALE Olympics. But what can we do? We are reaching a point of no return these days.
All that LGBT took a huge shit on their own lawn that started growing and they can't tidy it up now. Their ideology is eating them from the inside. It's good, maybe we'll finally get rid of them some time in the future
I think you mean "thoughts on MEN competing against women".
"Anything you can do I can do better. I can do anything better than you" ~ Man vs Trans Male to female
I don't see the issue. Not sure why people are worked up about it.
Tell that to the real woman who takes 2nd place competing against a biológical male. She and the other Olympian’s worked their asses off their entire life for this moment. This is like letting some openly take steroids with no consequence.
Trans women almost always crush real women when they compete against them in sports. This includes combat sports. There was trans woman called Fallon Fox (Google it) who was knocking out women a few years ago.
But again it’s about “equality” so who cares right?
Why? Because he is a biological man that stole a position away from a biological woman. If you allow this biological woman in sports will be oppressed
Cus it doesn't affect you personally. If u get raped in girls toilet by shemale, and people say is all good cus its girl on girl, then it might make u think but until then. All good. All coming with time.
@rounddablock this is simply untrue. Their testosterone levels have to be checked and have to be below a certain number. Which is often lower than the average biological woman in sports. There's unfair advantages all over sports. NBA Basketball players are fucking tall, American football players are stocky, some champion runners and swimmers have greater lung capacity than the average person competing in the same sport. Trans women aren't smashing the competition, more often than not they are actually losing and working 10x harder to get into things
Doesn't matter if their testosterones levels are low. Any time spent living with normal male testosterone levels still changes things like bone and muscle density.
" NBA Basketball players are fucking tall, American football players are stocky, some champion runners and swimmers have greater lung capacity than the average person competing in the same sport."
So lets not even have a women's division at all, right? If all the other differences are acceptable then separating men and women is wrong. If the women are typically weak, then they will fail and the best will win. Is that what we should do?
“Trans women aren't smashing the competition”
Except for all those times where transwomen have been smashing women’s records.
Do you have facts to back that up? I got plenty of facts to the contrary. How about Fallon fox who had a 5 -1 record fighting other women in MMA. “She” started fight at 37 which is very ancient in that sport. She knocked out or submitted all her female opponents. She had no background in high level wrestling, kickboxing or jiu jitsu.
Or how about the two “female” HS sprinters in Connecticut (who didn’t even have transgender surgery or hormone therapy) who both shattered records and easily took 1st and 2nd place at the HS state championships (there is a documentary called “8th place” about a girl who lost her college scholarship thanks to those two pushing her out of placing).
Or how about the Canadian transgender “Rachel McKinnon” who won a gold medal in cycling?
Sure you will occasionally have a few trans women lost to real women. But they definitely have an advantage.
I’m libertarian which I don’t care what you do just as long as you don’t hurt me or other people. If someone wants to “identify” as a woman well the more power to them. But when they are harming/cheating other people (and they are) then it’s time to draw the line.
We have yet to see a “trans man” win a major sporting event competing against biological males. That isn’t “bigotry”. It’s plain hard cold facts.
You'd be the first one crying when all of these transgenders take away all of the scholarships and other benefits set aside for women.
@rounddablock
Fallon Fox, well obviously she didn't knock out all of her opponents because she lost one fight. 5-1 isn't astounding Norma Dumon a cis woman has 6-1, Andrea Lee 12-5, Ketlen Vieira 11-2. Pretty average really. If she had of had experience with mma pre transition you would be complaining about her advantage there.
"Connecticut is one of 17 states that allow transgender high school athletes to compete without restrictions" I mean it's high school, so who actually cares. I personally don't think they should be allowed to compete without HRT.
Rachel McKinnon, it is a requirement for her testosterone levels to be kept low to be able to compete.
But anyway, we are talking about the Olympics as per the question.
in which case "Athletes would also be required to demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nanomoles per liter for at least 12 months prior to their first competition - with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition.
An athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category."
Cis women have between 15 nmol/L to 70 nmol/L
@hahahmm no, i literally do not care. They are competing fairly, restricted actually.
@Smashingdoozy were you born with ovaries? If you weren’t than I promise not to be rude. But I’m curious.
But the fact you know so much about testosterone levels and competition is something either A) a kinesiology major would understand B) a man devoted fitness and/or bodybuilding would know or C) someone trying to use pseudoscience trying to justify a travesty or last but least D) you are transgendered and have the logical mindset of a man
I just don’t see a “cisgendered” woman who has such particular detailed information on a specialty topic such as testosterone levels being in a favor of having “trans” women competing against real women. But hey maybe you’re different.
In a way I can’t almost get mad at you if it’s option C by the way. The AMA is rewriting its medical standards lately to fit woke ideology. 10 years ago this would of been completely unheard of. But considering how a major “science institution such as the CDC and Anthony Fauci changed their guidelines to fit the Biden Administrations political stances I now question the true “non partisan” judgment of the bureaucratic institutions.
In reality this is completely terrifying. But it’s not the first time this has happened in history. Many communist institutions have changed their “scientific” standards and procedures to meet the demands of the state. The Soviet Union hideously did this during the Chernobyl catastrophe.
Anyway what I said above may sound like a long stretch. But still I vehemently disagree with you that just because these trans women are having their testosterone levels that magically puts them on a level playing field as real biológical women.
All in all I really hope “Laurel” Hubbard wins it all at the Olympics. Seriously. I’m sure plenty of 43 year old women who were born with ovaries could win gold medals in weight lifting (cough)
Also for the other 8 guys and 3 girls who disagree with smashingdoozy please remain intransigent. The left doesn’t win my majority. Know they win by a very loud and rabidly fanatical minority that won’t shut up so finally just to keep them happy people cave in to this insanity.
What was radical 5 years ago is mainstream now. What is radical now will be mainstream 5 years from now. I predict multiple “trans athletes” will enter high levels of competition. It will get to the point that biológical women won’t even be able to medal anymore. Sounds like a stretch but it’s not.
It's called doing research it really wasn't that hard. I am an ally and a part of LGBT and have a few transgender friends. I do my research because transphobes like yourself are too lazy to.
Yeah women over 40 have won gold medals in weight lifting... Seriously dude it takes like 2 min to do research Milena Grigorova was 47 when she won gold.
Your looking at biased research, this is a brand new phenomenon and any real scientists will tell you there isn't enough data. But they don't want to wait so they are willing to use women's sports for their tests. Lets see how many more biological woman's skulls get fractured before you realize that the slowest and weakest men that competed against other men transition to women and break records and distroy the fastest and strongest women.
Organized Sports may be the only institution where segregation actually produces a fairer competitive environment. This is why we have weight classes in boxing, and men don't compete against women.
Athleticism is based on SIZE, Strength, and speed.
So if transwomen are on average taller, or heavier than Women. They have a competitive advantage in sports based on athleticism
@berseek945 stating facts is not bias research. Did you even read what I wrote?
You obviously know nothing about MMA if you think the only time a woman's face has been fractured was by a trans woman. Broken bones are a common thing in fighting sports. Do the damn research you look stupid.
@cjmtherfcker like I said before advantages in sports are common and normal.
Michael Phelps is double jointed and has 15% more bendability than his opponents. He also has massive hands and feet which act as human flippers. He swims at 6mph while the average swimmer swims at 2mph.
Boban Marjanovic is one of the tallest players in basketball and also has really massive hands. He doesn't even have to jump to shoot.
Eero Mäntyranta a skier in the 60s had a disease called primary familial and congenital polycythemia, this meant his blood could hold 50% more oxygen. Which gave him a massive boost in endurance.
Usain Bolt is thought to have a specific gene ACTN3 or sprinters gene which produces more fast-twitch muscle fibers.
Matthias Schlitte has Klippel-Trénaunay-Weber syndrome which causes bone and tissue to overgrow. He used it to his advantage and took up arm wrestling. His right arm measures at 18.1 inches and his left it "normal". He barely trained and also defeated an arm wrestling robot.
Now I could go on and on and on but I think you get the point.
@Smashingdoozy when we start seeing trans men compete against biológical men at very high levels of competition (collegiately and beyond) THEN and only then will I buy your argument that hormone therapy “levels the playing field”.
I give you kudos for all research you did. However you are still arguing a fallacy though. But seriously if Laurel Hubbard wins the Olympic women’s weight lifting competition then I think the entire world should ask the 2nd, 3rd and 4th place true female finishers for their honest opinions about this (if they can get over their fear of being canceled for telling the truth).
Chris Mosier, Schuyler Bailar, Kye Allums...
@Smashingdoozy Chris Mosier PARTICIPATED in a men’s competition but did NOT place or certainly did not win a championship. He’s got balls (pun intended) to try doing this as a former female. But still anyone can try out at the Olympic trials. Different story if you actually make the team, place or take home a gold.
He won two national championships in 2019 for race walking.
Also placed 2nd for his age group in long course duathlon National Championship
Okay he did. I reread it, but race walking is definitely not the same as marathon running, power lighting and especially MMA fighting.
He’s got my respect for his efforts and achievements. But still this not a true one to one comparison especially for sports that demand extreme athletic power. Race walking does require physical and mental stamina but it’s not at all the same kind of athletic exertion as doing a power snatch, 100 meter dash or talking or throwing power punch’s to someone’s jaw.
Again you did your homework. I also appreciate you trying to argue with logic (not what I’m used to seeing). I’ve gained respect for doing that. But I still disagree with you.
Well done for pointing out that different sports are well... Different... Love how you ignore the other two though 😌 just say you want an excuse to be a transphobic misogynist and more on my dude.
I didn’t read up on the other two yet.
You know I was about to say “thank you for doing your research. You have given me pause on some things and to be fair I should read up on what you posted.”
But you then just HAD to throw in the “transphobic misogynist” comment didn’t you? Despite me never directly calling you any names or slurs during this entire debate you just had to throw that shit didn’t you? Just couldn’t resist huh?
For a brief moment you were acting out of character and doing a good job of not living up to the stereotype... until you weren’t. Smdh.
Those aren't slurs. They're terms which seem fitting given your reaction. You're choosing to get offended by it now (even though I called you a transphobe before) because I've proven wrong every single point you've made. You refuse to do actual research outside of stupid Facebook posts, first google article and Joe Rogan. You misread information and make it fit your ideas. Try be a little more open, read things twice, 3 times even, do more research. I think you'll find that people who have actually studied this stuff know a tad bit more than you and I and we should trust their opinion on the matter.
Have an upvote. Also just wanna see where this goes. You have my full support though. :)
@Still-alive “ Those aren't slurs. They’re terms which seem fitting given your reaction. ”.
The hell they aren’t “slurs”. They are leftist invented “progressive” stop phrases that are used to disparage, silence and dismiss dissenting opinions. It’s Marxist bullshit and more and more people are wising up to this crap.
Also it’s funny how you say that I’m “misogynist” when I’m trying to defend biológical women competing in sports. I got a feeling that the trans movement and modern feminism are going to have an increasingly more awkward time coexisting.
But the greatest insane irony is for a split second I started gaining respect for you because you were seemingly sticking to a lógical argument up until the very end. Why did you choose to end everything with an insult immediately after I admitted I was gaining respect for you? Nice going. For real. But the very second you start throwing out labels and insults despite the opposing party never saying a thing you make it personal.
Don’t do that. Stick to the debating the person’s opinion vs. personally hating them. Some people are smart enough to know that just because someone disagrees with you it doesn’t mean they hate you. But in my experience people on the left struggle to comprehend that.
Also don’t take someone who seems to be reconsidering their opinion as a sign of “weakness” and then proceed to pounce. When you do that it shows you care more about BEING right vs. WHAT is right.
I care about WHAT is right. I couldn’t give two shits about choices people make in their personal lives. But the second I see their actions (trans women competing) harming/cheating other people i. e. “cis”gendered female athletes than I get angry.
Apparently you don't actually care what is right, because I stated what is right and you disagreed with me stating those facts?
Did you care about women's sports before? Have you discussed and advocated against the systematic sexism in sports against women? The objectification of women on and off the field? What about the sexual assault many dealt with? Or do you only suddenly care now that trans women are involved?
You want them to be excluded because they are trans, because they are different. You don't care about the facts because the facts don't align with your thoughts.
Have you ever competed in professional sports?
Yes I have 🙃
*continues with popcorn eating*
fascinating
And which ones? What levels?
Why does it matter what I've done? Id be happy to compete against a trans women. If they win then they win because they worked hard.
It matters and don’t duck the question. Please tell us.
Mine aren't relevant to the conversation as they're mixed genders 😌✌🏻
@Smashingdoozy you know that the vast majority of women disagree with transwomen in women's sports! Even Catlin Jenner said its not fair and she is a transwoman.
Caitlyn Jenner is a moron. And most people are evidently uneducated.
I highly doubt you competed professionally if both the men and women competed together.
Well mine I competed pro mma and I fought on national TV twice. I remember very well if the sacrifice, blood, sweat, nerves and criticism from morons I had to go through while I was completely involved. It was no joke.
I’ve met and trained with several female fighters by the way. I never once “not cared” about them or judged them any less or sexualized them competing. They had to deal with some drawbacks but they also had some benefits. The good looking ones could easily get modeling work and were very marketable. They made easy side cash.
Anyway your criticism of female athletes being victims of “patriarchy” is about as weak sauce as the wage gap debate in 2021. It’s infinitely more complicated than that. The women’s soccer team is paid much less then men BECAUSE MUCH FEWER PEOPLE BUY TICKETS. It’s simple economics.
But getting back to the transgender issue. I having trained with several women and men who were the same size and there is definitely a difference in not only strength but reaction speed, agility and grip coordination. There are difference in bone density.
To me this is like an athlete who gets a “therapeutic exemption pass” to take free testosterone since his natural levels are low. A few years ago very high level fighters like Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen were legally allowed to take steroids so their testosterone levels were within “normal range”
And what happened? These guys were noticeably shredded and competing a much higher level then they should be at their ages. Finally the USADA banned this and these guys shrunk like deflated balloons.
Those guys though were at the time getting hormone therapy to what was considered “normal” and yet they clearly had an advantage.
These trans athletes might be getting tested but even though they are “passing” the acceptable levels it sure as hell doesn’t negate some of the non testable advantages they have with the XY chromosome.
And every last sport those people participate in is segregated by sex. You have to destroy the whole segregation argument to make this work for TRANS. All that gets you to is Open divisions
I won't repeat myself so I'll just advise you to read everything I said again.
Why compete against women if advantages are acceptable? Why are there weight classes in boxing?
Actually I am going to ask us to back up for a second.
You actually peaked my curiosity earlier when you brought up the FTM athletes. I planned to say “thanks I need a sometime to read about those” and peace out for a bit until you pissed me off with that “transphobic misogynist” comment. You actually had a impressive position in this debate until that happened.
I don’t want to go back to the spats. Let’s pretend you didn’t say that (you should apologize but we both know you won’t) and let’s get back to the sources you brought up earlier.
If you can be so kind to list them for me (including the FTM athlete names) i will do my due diligence and read them.
But asking me to back so I can reread all your personal slights is a tall order. So please list them. If you don’t want to list them again then peace out. I’ll agree to disagree. But just saying I had a split second of curiosity.
Thanks.
I mean why don't men compete against women in sports if advantages are acceptable?
I actually just wanna say before I go because I'm over this post. I think you or someone mentioned having gone through male puberty is the advantage. Simple fix for that, everyone goes on puberty blockers until they know what their gender is. Puberty blockers aren't harmful at all and are used commonly in children to stop early puberty.
There is permanent developmental damage that taking puberty blockers do! If taken to long that person will never development into their born sex.
@Still-alive “ Simple fix for that, everyone goes on puberty blockers until they know what their gender is. Puberty blockers aren't harmful at all and are used commonly in children to stop early puberty.”
Omg wow. Wooow. Brav fucking O. Let’s do another standing ovation like your buddy still-alive above. Nothing wrong at all giving young children puberty blockers. Totally 100% long term safe, proven and effective. Oh yes that was the grand finale everybody needed.
Now you have taken the mask off I’m so glad for earnest agenda and how you reveal your true self. So proud of your upstanding selfless character. You are true example for all of us. Just keep fighting the good fight.
Nope once you are off them they are fully reversible.
@rounddablock cry more now. lol
They banned steroids, so this is the natural progression in a long line of cheating in sports.
They test T levels so they might as well be afab. They don't have an advantage and it's great that they're being accepting!
It does not matter if they test T levels. They had male hormones for most of their lives, and built up their muscles before deciding to swing the other way. So they already have far better strength than most women. And that does not disappear when they alter.
Yeah, them winning in every competition they're is clearly not a sign that they don't have an advantage.
Fallon Fox. Watch him beat the fuck out of women then tell me they have no advantage
It's not that simple. It's completely unfair to athletes that are born women. Even with surgery and hormone therapy, a person born in a male body that transitions to a woman - especially a professional athlete - will almost always have a natural physical advantage over biological women. That's just basic science.
Assigned female at birth or cis women please. And assigned male at birth or trans women please. Not "biological man" or "biological woman".
"Biological" is science and a scientific term. In fact, there's a whole branch of science dedicated to biological studies. Surprisingly, it's called "biology".
In this context, cisgender, transgender, assigned female at birth and assigned male at birth are the correct terms.
You're not "assigned" anything at birth biologically. Your either born with female anatomy or your born with male anatomy (with very few rare exceptions, like being born with both or none). That's science, and specifically, biology. People want to "assign" social-political terminology to biological science. It's inaccurate and nonsensical.
1.2% of the population is intersex, so it's not that rare. Don't talk about what you don't know.
0.018% of the World's population is born intersex, not 1.2%:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/
Don't post about what you don't know.
Ok, thank you for educating me. They're is still likely more people than that, who just don't know they are intersex. It's called but being a bitch and accepting that you don't know everything.
healthresearchfunding.org/.../ But also.
That higher percentage was discredited, the same way as "vaccinations cause autism" was discredited. Regardless, it's still a matter of biological science at the time of birth. That doesn't mean individual people aren't able to make personal decisions about themselves later in life. 👍
@zelda_5 they are brainwashing you kids aren’t they? Did a school teacher tell you this?
Some day you might find a biological male who identifies as a “female” showering and changing with you in the woman’s locker room. Tell me how comfortable that will make you feel.
No teacher has told me anything about trans people. If a trans woman is in the locker room, I might be slightly uncomfortable, but no more than with a cis woman. If a trans man was in the changing room, I'd be terribly uncomfortable. Trans people generally go with the one of the gender that pass better as as to avoid bullying. I will not care.
@rounddablock I understand your sentiment, but you're bringing up a different argument. Someone simply being "uncomfortable" in a bathroom and/or in a locker room situation isn't the same as an unfair physical competitive advantage a transitioned female professional athlete has over a biological female professional athlete.
There T levels may be low at the time of test but they were changing his body his entire life, and that changed is permanent. There is no reversing that.
Even Kaitlin Jenner, I biological man trans said its unfair!
https://youtu.be/4U4KGz72SEg
Psst have her watch this ☝️☝️
@NYCQuestions1976 yeah but I just notice a bigger trend here. About 95%+ of the young women on here (teens to early 20s) always seem to parrot woke philosophy. They are being TAUGHT that crap. If it’s not through teachers (although it often it is) is through entertainment and messaging geared to brainwash young kids. THAT is the problem I have.
There is not logical person on earth who can truly factually argue that a biological man competing against biological women is fair. It’s a disgusting travesty
@rounddablock Oh I don't doubt or dispute the thoroughly ridiculous "woke" agenda. I'm just stating that there's a difference between simply being uncomfortable and an unfair physical competitive advantage based on anatomical biology at birth.
@NYCQuestions1976 right. But it’s quite selfish that some of these women are like “who cares”. They don’t understand that this is only the beginning and some day this trans crap will directly impact them. A more likely scenario would be a biológical male who identified as a “woman” sharing a bathroom, locker room or even a shower with biological women.
When are we going to draw the line? From what I’ve seen the left almost always ultimately wins. They are never satisfied.
You just don’t see too many “trans men” competing in male sports. Also I haven’t heard of biological women who I identify as “male” going into men’s locker rooms to often. I’m sure there are some rare exceptions. But why is it that so many more biological men want to “trans over” to the female space.
Male prisoners the state of California can now request to be transferred to women’s prisons if they identify as “female”. I don’t know about you but if I got put away I would much rather be in a woman’s prison vs a men’s. Not too bad of scenario all things considered.
Its not fair. The only fair model are separate trans leagues
I'm tired of arguing for people's rights. In the ideal world, we wouldn't separate by gender. There would be less people in prison too. Oh no, people are being "brainwashed" into believing people need rights, we're all gonna die! /Sar
Playing professional sports is a privilege that's earned. It's not a right. I can't suit up for the New York Giants or New York Yankees simply because I happen to exist. People are entitled to rights, but they're not entitled to privileges. Privileges are earned based on merit, not existence.
Yes. And trans athletes who perform at Olympic level have merited the right to be in the Olympics.
Not against biological women, because transgender women have an unfair biological advantage from birth. Even with surgery and hormone therapy, the testosterone that transgender women are born with doesn't just go away or cease to exist. Adding estrogen via injection doesn't make testosterone in the body inactive. Again, that's basic science and biology.
Hormone blockers
Whether you call it hormone therapy or hormone blockers, that's just semantics. A transgender woman on hormones will still produce more testosterone than a biological woman. During regular everyday life that we all live, it doesn't matter... but in the context of women's professional sports? It's a completely unfair disadvantage to biological women athletes.
Hormone blockers block the majority of the sex hormones that are naturally occurring in the body. A trans women would likely be on those as well as estrogen to lower T and therefore dysphoria.
@zelda_5 how does a girl your age know so much about this? I’m curious.
Hormone blockers don't rid the body of testosterone, just like drinking a marijuana masker ahead of a test doesn't rid the body of marijuana. Marion Jones was banned from track and field for using testosterone. It's an unfair biological competitive advantage.
I'm ND. I hyperfocus on it.
Not my problem. It's up to the IOC and the allergies to resolve..
i am a straight male, but that doesn't mean i can't lie and say i'm trans. what can they say against that?