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68Opinion
Great! We will need those troops for when he pulls us into Ukraine.
We should have brought the troops home after Obama helped kill Osama Bin Laden.
Bring them home. Bomb the Taliban from afar. Use Special Forces for select missions. Use guerrilla warfare on them.
Depends on how. If Afghanistan is just left open for a hostile takeover by the Taliban, it’s a dumb move.
At this point of time
with the United States having played a minor role in the conflict since 2014
the Taliban have clearly capitalized and made most of their gains in that time
^ but once again, to the degree of control is greatly debated... the Taliban themselves claim anywhere from 70% of 90% of the country under their control (ridiculous).. the Afghan Government claim the Taliban control nothing (also ridiculous)
I think most fair estimates show about 10%+ of the country being directly controlled by the Taliban and around 30% being contested...
none the less, its basically turned into a stalemate
the ANDSF (Afghan Security) win most of the battles these days.. but lack the logistical ability to be decisive... so the Taliban gains have been stunted in the past few years
^ according to RIV Monitoring there have been around 3,700 ANDSF and 17,000 Taliban deaths since Feb 2020..
the Taliban themselves seem incapable of defeating the ANDSF...
its just an endless stalemate
the USA is also unlikely to get heavily involved again
I doubt the Afghan Government will collapse
I think thats mostly fear tactics by politicians...
but I agree the withdrawal should be responsible
That was an order by Trump not Biden. Biden is just going along with it.
America get out of Afghanistan. The killer is America. What he wanted from Afghanistan from Iraq for years
Actually the Northern Alliance were largely responsible for the overthrow of the Taliban regime
and if we want to be honest about "killers"
we should probably look to the Taliban, which according to UNAMA is at fault for nearly 70%+ of yearly civilian casualties in Afghanistan
not to mention the various insurgencies in Iraq that killed Iraqi civilians nonstop
or if we want to go even before that
Saddam who was notorious for killing his own people
^ the Taliban regime were also just as bad.. it was why they never gain legitimacy, and the Northern Alliance was viewed as teh official government of Afghanistan.
@FortheloveofHistory America that kills innocent people is no different from Taliban and Saddam. Killer America
Can you name me any nation, or people
that hasn't killed innocent people?
@FortheloveofHistory example Turkey had never kill innocent people
Ottoman Empire? Which has a long history of commiting genocide?
Zilan Massacre in 1930 under the Turkish government?
all the civilians killed by Turkey in Syria?
shouldn't we hold Turkey to the same standards?
@FortheloveofHistory The Ottoman Empire has never committed a massacre. Conquest movements are not massacres. As a result of the wars, it has acquired vast territories. The 1915 Armenian genocide allegations are also a complete lie. See the General Harbord Report on this topic.
Turkey, was never slaughtered civilians in Syria. This is a false thing that America does not want Turkey in Syria. Today I say to you look at where Turkey is located in Syria'll know better. If Turkey massacre in Syria had done was take 4-5 million Syrians into Turkey? The real massacre in Syria is the terrorist organizations supported by America and Bashar Assad, the ruler of Syria. Turkey, state terror does not want to be asked to establish whether the operation in border fighting with terrorists in Syria. That's the issue.
Unfortunately, the Zilan Massacre is true.
You can go ahead and deny allegations of mass genocide
which not only included the armenian genocide
but also the greek genocide
and all of that within the same period of time if you want
none the less you admit to yourself now that turkey is also a killer
I mean lets be honest here
EVERY group of people
from French, to African, to Turkish, to Chinese
has throughout their history... good and bad things
massacres they have committed
wars with questionable reasons
This is the reality of the world
no people is free of this
and that includes the Turks, who also have a long history of genocide... carrying out massacres.. invading.. conquering.. subjugating many peoples.. ETC
@FortheloveofHistory If there is any massacre committed by the Turks throughout history, show me the evidence
Armenian Genocide (1,000,000+) from 1915-17
Greek Genocide (300,000 to 900,000) from 1913-22
Assyrian Genocide (200,000-275,000) from 1914-24
all within the early 20th Century
These are some of the most well recorded events in History
to deny them is the same as denying the holocaust.
Sadly, the denial of the Armenian Genocide is an aspect of Turkish nationalism
No other group denies it
even in Turkey is illegal to talk about it
Acknowledgment of the genocide is punishable under Article 301 of the Penal Code
It is depressing
but very similar to how some Muslims handle the Holocaust
or how the Chinese deal with the late 80s uprisings
Not to mention you already ACCEPTED the fact the Zilan Massacre happened
so even with your Nationalistic denial. . you have already accepted Turkey has committed massacres
So you have more or less lost this argument before it began by claiming Turkey never carried out a massacre
The End.
@FortheloveofHistory I said that the Armenian genocide is not real. The real genocide was committed by the Armenians against the Turks. This issue has been proven by the American General Harbord Report. Examine the report and never say again that Turks committed genocide against Armenians.
I will investigate the issue of the Greek and Assyrian genocide. I will let you know after I get the information.
@FortheloveofHistory who lost it is not clear yet. Turks do not harm anyone for no reason. If it hurt, there is definitely a reason. I'll prove them to you.
If youd like more examples
The Hamidian Massacres of 1894-97 (200,000 to 400,000)
The Kasos Massacre of 1824 (500+ and 2,000 enslaved)
Destruction of Psara (7,000+)
The Batak Massacre (7,000)
Chios Massacre (52,000)
Constantinople 1821 (many hundreds to thousands)
Siege of Bihac (2,000+ Civilians killed)
We could also mention
the Massacre of Diyarbakir 1895 (25,000
the 1913 Ethnic cleaning of the Thracian Bulgarians (60,000)
The Bulgarkoy Massacre 1913 (1,000)
the Massacre of Marash 1920 (12,000)
the Dersim Rebellion (13,000)
the 33 Bullets Incident (32)
the Instanbul Pogrom (30)
the Corum Massacre (57)
The MAras MAssacre (109)
Lice Massacre (30)
Kuskonr massacre (38)
@FortheloveofHistory I will investigate all of them and give you the necessary answer.
Do you accept America's massacres?
Hahaha you can continue to believe in a conspiracy if you want
If it makes you feel better!!!
OR you can accept the truth that it happened
I am a Historian
obviously I accept facts
In the long span of history
the United States has committed its fair shares of crimes
Has it had anything close to the Holocaust?
no
Has it has anything close to the Armenia, Greek, or Assyrian Genocides?
no
there hasn't been anything in American history that resembles that
BUT there have been plenty of massacres
and mistreatments of certain groups (Blacks, Native Americans... etc)
and clear in warfare there were massacres carried out
THE ISSUE will be how its consider
FOR EXAMPLE
in Afghanistan
most of the death is carried out by the Taliban (that is according to UNAMA)
roughly 70%+ of civilian deaths each year are committed by the Taliban
and its been that way throughout most of the conflict
BUT YES, plenty of civilians have been killed by American forces
by American airstrikes. etc
and of course as we know at this point in time the war in Afghanistan has had very little American involvement since 2014
and the war has turned into a stalemate between the Afghan Government and the Taliban
If we take a look at Vietnam
the most famous example is the Mai Lay Massacre
roughly 500 were killed
and of course plenty were killed by American bombing campaigns as well
If we look at something like the Atomic Bombings
indeed most of the deaths were civilians
^ but many would argue it saved lives... due to Operation Downfall being the planned invasion
that would have cost roughly 10,000,000 Japanese lives (as opposed to 200,000+)
So I am no denier of history
I am a student of it
But once again
the United States has NEVER had anything that the degree of the Holocaust
or the Armenian Genocides, Assyrian Genocide, Greek Genocide.. etc.
there is nothing comparable in American history.
@FortheloveofHistory Are you still serious about the Armenian genocide?
@FortheloveofHistory Whatever America does, I think he will always defend that he is right. But America is not right in anything it does
I think you are clearly generalizing a bit?
You seem to hold a great deal of prejudice
and of course
EVERYONE accepts the Armenian Genocide
it is only Turkey that denies it.
but once again back to my point
THERE is nothing in American history
that resembles the Armenian Genocide.. or the Assyrian Genocide.. or the Greek Genocide
or the Holocaust...
etc etc
nothing at all
You can try to think of something if youd like?
@FortheloveofHistory I told you to read the General Harbord Report. After reading this, you will realize that the Armenian genocide is a lie. but if you don't want to accept it, I don't think you will read it. If you are truly a historian, respect history and read this report. historians look at all sources. As for what America does. Let's say it did not commit a genocide like the Greek or Assyrian genocide. Instead of fighting with weapons, he is imperialist. this is also a kind of war.
I am sorry, but that is not what the report discusses?
So I have no clue why you assume it does
ALSO you are saying the United States went to war?
soooo... didn't nearly every other nation on the planet?
@FortheloveofHistory Harbord Commission a report providing information about current events 100 years ago in eastern Turkey. You talk about the Armenian genocide all the time. the report also provides information on this issue. So read this report so you can learn about the facts.
If America doesn't start a war somewhere, it will do other things. For example, it conducts imperialist activities.
You clearly haven't read the report
if you assume it says the Armenian Genocide never happened
"The Harbord report also indicated that the Turkish population was far more numerous than the Armenians, following the massacres and deportations of the Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia."
Source
Harbord, 7.
Exactly quote from the source
"In 1895, 100,000 perished. At Van in 1908, and at Adana and elsewhere in
[page 7]
Cilicia in 1909, over 30,000 were murdered. The last and greatest of these tragedies was in 1915. Conservative estimates place the number of Armenians in Asiatic Turkey in 1914 over 1,500,000, though some make it higher. Massacres and deportations were organized in the spring of 1915 under definite system, the soldiers going from town to town. The official reports of the Turkish Government show 1,100,000 as having been deported. Young men were first summoned to the government building in each village and then marched out and killed. The women, the old men, and children were, after a few days, deported to what Talaat Pasha called “ agricultural colonies,” from the high, cool, breeze-swept plateau of Armenia to the malarial flats of the Euphrates and the burning sands of Syria and Arabia. The dead from this wholesale attempt on the race are variously estimated from 500,000 to more than a million, the usual figure being about 800,000."
TO be specific on source for your research this is
James G. Harbord
CONDITIONS IN THE NEAR EAST: REPORT OF THE American MILITARY MISSION TO ARMENIA
Took place during the 66th Congress 2nd Session
Document No. 266
April 13, 1920
The Wikipedia Article for James Harbord
gives the link to the research you are talking about
"In August 1919, President Woodrow Wilson sent a fact-finding mission to the Middle East, headed by Harbord, to investigate the feasibility of the Balfour Declaration, which supported the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine, taken from the Ottoman Empire during the war. Harbord was also to report on Turkish–Armenian relations in the wake of the Armenian Genocide. Upon returning to the United States, Harbord wrote the Conditions in the Near East: Report of the American Military Mission to Armenia, which was a summary of the expedition that provided various details of the mission. The report includes maps, statistics, and a historical analyses of the country and its population. In addition to such details, Harbord collected evidence and information regarding the massacres of Armenians. Harbord's report stated that "the temptation to reprisals for past wrongs" would make it extremely difficult to maintain peace in the region.[21][22] The final conclusion of the report was the inclusion of Armenia in the possible American mandate for Asia Minor and Rumelia since a mandate for Armenia alone was not deemed feasible under these conditions.[23]"
I can't copy/paste links just yet
but if you go there
you can click on
Conditions in the Near East: Report of the American Military Mission to Armenia
and it will give you the document
where Harbord details his findings
including the numerous massacres and deportations of Armenians by the Turks.
Sorry friend but the facts are as follows
during the VERY SAME YEARS
the Ottoman Empire was committing at least 3 known cases of Genocide
which included against the Assyrians, Greeks, and Armenians
TOTAL DEATH TOLL
anywhere from 1.2 million to 3.5 million within only 5+ years
THESE ARE THE FACTS
and these things are confirmed by the Harbord Report
Which I gave details and the process for you to read.
What the fuck was they doing there at the first place? Nothing but just being killed!
Sounds like his first real decision as a president. Why didn't he do this day one? Why did he sign dozens of useless orders instead?
it's a lie just like every president before him said they would do that. There are people fighting in Afghanistan that were born after the war started.
Just as long as we don't have another 9/11 bring them home. Why are we still over there anyway?
It’s sad because that country is so screwed up, but I think it’s the right thing to do.
It's a really good decision. All wars need to stop.
Sounds like a repeat of VietNam.
I think the biggest difference is
after 1973
the USA signed the Case Church Amendment which prohibited American forces from returning
cut funding to the South Vietnamese government...
not to mention the economic crisis of the early 1970s...
when the North invaded South Vietnam in 1975
it met a South Vietnamese government that was demoralized due to a lack of American aid and support..
but also a South Vietnamese government with a fair bit of corruption (there were many questionable decisions made by that government during that period of time)
AND of course... the aftermath of the war was significantly worse than the war itself
North Vietnam was at fault for at least 1.6 million cases of Democide (according to Rudolph Rummel).. re education camps... the boat people
of course neighboring nations like Laos and Cambodia collapsed
Pol Pot in Cambodia would murder nearly half of his population within a few years
None of that would have likely happened if the United States kept its influence in the conflict
I personally believe had the United States simply kept funding South Vietnam at a proper rate
and kept its promise of returning if the North broke the peace
that we would be considering the war a victory
but none the less it went from being a possibility of victory in 1973
to a self made political disaster by 1975
I remember Vietnam, and even signed up for the draft.
Afghanistan is nothing at all like Vietnam. Not even close.
@WindAtMyBack But both were no win wars weren't they?
I think conflicts where the "win" depends mostly upon the other people tend to be "no win" situations
Lets be honest,
In the case of both Vietnam and Afghanistan (also Iraq)
Success was always far more dependent upon the South Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis
than on American forces...
American forces could win the battles, set the foundation for decently structured government and security.. etc
it all depends upon these nations on how they handle it...
in Vietnam.. the United States cut all of its relations to South Vietnam.. making it nearly impossible for the South Vietnamese government to survive (which already had a struggle with corruption)
Iraq is decently secured (and we still work with them to this day)..
but the withdrawal of 2011 showed the great limits of that
^ immediately after 2011, the Iraqi Government began to institute some ethnic/religious charged moves (for example removing Sunni leadership and replacing it with Shia leadership) which made provinces like Al Anbar (which fell without much of a fight) hotbeds for groups like ISIS
this forced the United States to return and lead a coalition in fighting ISIS...
Things are relatively secure now... will it stay that way? I don't know
Afghanistan is a similar situation
most Taliban gains were made after 2014 (when the USA pulled most of its forces out. . and handed all responsibilities to the Afghan Government)
at this point its a stalemate between the Taliban and Afghan Government
Will that be the issue as well?
PERHAPS!
But one of the big differences is
Vietnam saw the deaths of over 50,000 US troops in just 9 years (1964-73)
and well over 3 million Vietnamese within that point of time (divided up roughly 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers.. 1,100,000 North Vietnamese/VietCong.. and also 2,000,000 civilian deaths on both sides combined)
Afghanistan?
2,500 US American soldiers in 20 years
likely over 50,000 Afghan soldiers (most of them in the past 7 years.. when they took over responsibility)
likely over 50,000 Civilians
and like an even higher number of Insurgents/Taliban... they usually made up over 50% of recorded deaths in Afghanistan each year...
RIV Monitoring for example (an Afghan based group)
estimates just from Feb 2020 to the current day
that roughly 2,000 civilians, 3,700 Afghan soldiers/police and 17,000 Taliban have died
I guess they don't need heroine or they will produce it in the US
HEROIN
They wouldn't do it when Trump tried to do it. I don't see why they would now unless it was purely a partisan play.
Probably needs them in Syria.
So it turns out Trump negotiated the agreement and it was set to pull out in May.
What Biden has done is announce that extending the deadline to Sept 11th, but the media is reporting it as if it's Biden is the one making it all happen.
Been 20 years with little change. Stop filling Halliburton’s pockets.
You mean the talks trump had and biden is now taking credit for?
Running away with their tail in between their legs. Good riddance.
That'll make the terrorists happy that their safe haven will be back to normal.
Then what do you do when you are attacked? Bend over let them attack you?