Why was Thomas Jefferson's statue removed?

[Daniela1982]

OK, George Floyd was a criminal and not a model citizen, yet his statue is fine yet one fine American, Thomas Jefferson, a spokesman for democracy, and who was an American Founding Father, the principal author of the Declaration of Independence (1776), and the third President of the United States (1801–1809) statue was removed because he owned slaves, which was legal at the time. But a lot of things were permitted in the past and are illegal now, but does that make all those past people guilty of any crime today? How about the reverse? Women were not able to vote until 1923. Does that make all people against women voting misogynists or guilty of any crimes today? Doesn't it sound like they are trying to erase Democracy and the History of our Founding Fathers and Principals of Freedom?

[lonestar_01]

The main issue surrounding the controversy of Thomas Jefferson is the fact that during his adult life he owned approximately 600 African slaves, but freed 2 in his life and seven were granted freedom after his death by his will. So although he was one of the Founding Fathers in the American Revolutionary War, the principal author of the Declaration of Independence and the third president of the United States, people brand him as a wicked slave owner and a racist, even though under him the Transatlantic Slave Trade was abolished on U. S. soil in 1808, but nevertheless he still was a plantation owner. Personally knowing him as part of the slave owner elite and part of the Slavocracy shadow system that effectively dominated the Bicameral system of the federal government of the Union up until the Civil War of 1861-1865, maybe he truly wasn't a very nice person. But that's probably the answer as to why his statue has been removed, as he falls into the category of what the 'Woke' protestors despise and aim to erase from history as a 'hero'.

[Daniela1982]

You said 600 and someone else said under 300. That goes to show you no one really knows shit or what is true or isn't.

[lonestar_01]

Very true, there's no concrete records as to how many slaves he owned throughout his life. All that is recorded is that it was a few hundred and the names of the 9 he granted emancipation to during and after his duration on the planet.

[Messianic_Monk]

What NOBODY talks about was his work as a lawyer in the state of Virginia to try and push their state legislature to ban slavery outright. Why? Because it makes things complicated.

[Daniela1982]

@Messianic_Monk Dude! This was asked a year ago. Keep up!

[Messianic_Monk]

it is still up. this is a public domain. if this is such a big problem to you then delete it

[Datboi65]

And that White woman who was killed in the Capitol while attempting to BREACH the building was called a martyr and a hero? You're full of shit. The difference between your situation and this one is that you haven't pointed out specific names of people who were "against" women voting firstly, but here there's clearly a man who owned slaves and participated in their trade while claiming on the constitution that "all men are created equal". Hypocrisy. Secondly, you are the last one who should talk about "democracy" when your party tried to overthrow democracy, and failed. See, just because slavery was legal at the time, doesn't mean that it was moral. Matter of fact, the abolitionist movement had been going on before the declaration of independence, and there was a school of thought that the negros where to be given their freedom, but they didn't want them to mix with the White population, so they decided to keep slavery alive because it is more convenient to have power over them that way. You are all a bunch of idiots, good-for-nothing losers that have nothing better to do than talk shit about a dead man and glorify racist assholes like yourselves. And White people have the nerve to ask why people think they are racist.

[Exterminatore]

Nobody cares.

[Datboi65]

@Exterminatore Clearly you care enough to comment, or you would zip it

[Anonymous]

You said it yourself. History isn’t static. What was ok 250 years ago isn’t today. The world views history through today’s perspective and the way historical figures are judged can change. Jefferson, although typical in his day, was a racist and a slaver and forced himself sexually on slave women. That doesn’t erase his accomplishments per the founding of the nation but it does call into question how much honor should be publicly bestowed upon him. No one is trying to erase his presidency or suppress the Declaration of Independence or change history books. However, this whitewashing of history that has gone on in this country for decades is coming to an end. We should be looking at historical figures in their totality and not just the parts of their history we like. If a particular city decides that a public display of Jefferson no longer represents their values, they are free to remove it. Isn’t that what freedom is all about? …. and to answer your question, yes, those people who opposed a woman’s right to vote were misogynists. They didn’t believe women were equal to men and shouldn’t have the same rights. That’s the very definition of misogyny.

[Daniela1982]

Fist of all, none of us were around back in Jefferson's time so we can't personally attest to the fact what Jefferson did as far as slaves go. Anything you hear would be considered here say in a court of law. There were good and bad slave owners. Who can that Jefferson was a bad one? I think his reputation as a person is sound. Yes, cities can choose to do what they want, like defunding their police and not interfering in riots, as Portland does while the town is trashed because they don't have the manpower now, and the Sheriff's dept will no long back them up because of their lame city government.

[Opinion Owner]

There were “good” slave owners? That’s the argument you’re going with? No there were not. There were only degrees of bad. Only someone with evil in their heart would ever treat other human beings in such a manner. All of history is based on the observations of others. You can’t just disregard the parts that are inconvenient for you by calling it hearsay. Newspapers at the time documented Jefferson’s affinity for slave concubines. He fathered numerous children with his maid. Jefferson obviously did some great things for this country but he also did some despicable things. You look at all of it when judging someone’s legacy and place in history. You accuse others of censoring history when it’s you who is trying to suppress the real story. What are you afraid of? Let’s tell it like it was shall we?

[Daniela1982]

Anything that happened 250 years ago is past history and should be left in the past. Anyone responsible are long gone. Why do so many people like to dig up the past instead of putting all that hatred into issues that affect us today? Let me get you a shovel so you can dig up a crying towel. It's funny that on this site I see a lot of questions about old boyfriends/girlfriends and how they hurt you or cheated on you. People tell them it was past history and to get over it. And yet they come here with hatred in their craw from things that happened 250 years ago and doesn't affect them now or will in the future. Slavery is gone as are the people responsible so come back to the present and its present issues. How much of this baloney is really people trying to start trouble and riots. What are they going to protest about the past after all the statues are gone? About how we should sue the US for not having flushing toilets back then either? *rolls eyes 20 times*

[Opinion Owner]

If the past should be left in the past, why are you whining about Jefferson’s statue coming down? Take it down and leave him in the past then. You can’t have it both ways. If you want him displayed and honored in the present, then let’s study him in the present and take an honest look instead of censoring his history. We learn to avoid the sins of the past by being students of history. There’s no shame in learning that a historical figure was extremely flawed.

[Subarugirl]

Maybe because racist, he raped a 14 year old slave that bore him 7 children and never freed her, he split up slave families as a punishment, falsely accused his vice president of treason, at one point he owned 267 slaves, Jefferson punished child slaves who didn’t make enough nails by cutting their food rations. Jefferson opposed abolition and was deeply racist. When slaves led by Toussaint Louverture revolted against the French colonial rule of Haiti, Jefferson — a noted Francophile and racist — personally financed French slaveholders to quash the rebellion.

They aren't erasing history, they pulling down monuments to horrible people.

[Daniela1982]

And the American Army slaughtered American Indians. None of history is clean of conscience. But some should be noted on their standing for freedom and of ending our country of English tyranny and setting up our Democracy. Would you rather have statues of drug addicts or of icons of American Democracy?

[Subarugirl]

Id rather not have men who raped children as icons, regardless of what he did for American democracy. Id rather have statues of Harriet Tubman, Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa, Susan B Anthony, Sitting Bull, Sacagawea, and Norman Borlaug,.
When learning about American history, they should also teach about the way these historical figures lived, the crimes that committed, and the people they hurt. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it but I'll be damned before I will ever be okay with having monuments to child rapists.

[Daniela1982]

You think Martin Luther King was an angel?

[Subarugirl]

As far as I know he didn’t own slaves or rape children

[Daniela1982]

He was a cheater as were a lot of our presidents. Slavery is no longer an issue but human trafficking is and kidnapping and selling girls is. Why don't you start championing for that now? Isn't it time to let go your hatred of the past and concentrate on today's issues?

[Subarugirl]

Oh I am aware of today’s issues. I know that 1 in 5 women will experience rape or Attempted Rape in her lifetime. I know that most of those assaults will go unreported and that most of those victims will be children abused by someone they know. you may not, but I take rape and sexual assault seriously today and 300 years ago. If you are idolizing men who though that raping women and children was okay then you need to reevaluate some things.

[najekim]

So in that thinking, then Monticello, Mt Vernon, The Jefferson Memorial, The Washington Monument, etc. should all be destroyed?

[Subarugirl]

@najekim or maybe just you know, not idolize child rapists and slave owners… it’s really not that difficult

[Daniela1982]

Yesh yeah! George Floyd probably raped some girls too. Who knows? This isn't about erasing slavery as it already has been erased and conquered, it is about removing the Constitution and our rights. Now go peddle your hatred on some other thread. Stop hating what has already been vanquished cause all that hate is not hurting anyone but you.

[Subarugirl]

You do realize the sex slavery is an epidemic in the states it’s not legal but still very prevalent. Also a George Floyed was a criminal. I think it’s very appropriate to hate slavery and that rape is still such prevalent issue. If that bothers you, that’s a you problem.

[Daniela1982]

You are the one hating here, and hating something that ended with the Emancipation Proclamation.

[Subarugirl]

Am I worn for hating rape and slavery? Or are those things you are okay with?

[Daniela1982]

What don't you get about slavery being in the past? Are you an archeologist or something that you like digging up the past?

[Exterminatore]

@Subaru

Your speculations Jefferson was a rapist are unfounded. Yes, I know who Sally Hemings was. She was Jefferson’s lover most likely if anything at all and was mixed race. You are aware he took her to Paris with him, where she could have fled?

Also, no one cares anymore. Seriously. The race card is over played. You guys went too far left and are now alienating most of America. Read the comments on here. Like 90% of people are against this nonsense and I’ll wager half voted for Biden. Seriously. You guys are just pissing everyone off at this point now because you just keep going on and on with the racism and the extreme behavior and most people don’t care about any of this.

I will add that Liberia, an African nation founded by freed US slaves is where any blacks and anyone who hate the US need to go. It is one of the poorest nations on earth. Seriously, if you guys hate America that much and it’s history move there. It was found by black slaves as I stated so you’ll be more comfortable with it’s history.

NO ONE CARES!!!

[Exterminatore]

Probably because he was white and a slave owner.


This is all part of rewriting our history or erasing it, and destroying our traditions. These people are communists that are doing these things. They hate America fundamentally and want to take it over from within. Some ways they are doing this is by eliminating a sense of national identity and pride, erasing or rewriting history, and canceling traditions. Don’t worry, we’ll hear this summer how Independence is a racist and imperialist holiday that should be canceled.

[darkcloud1945]

You have said it BETTER!

[Exterminatore]

*independence day

[OlderAndWiser]

The one that the PC culture won't touch, despite the Me Too movement, is removing all the statues of those who were guilty of marital infidelity. It may be absolutely unrelated to their contributions to society, but. . .

[Daniela1982]

How do you know who was guilty of that? Should Aaron Burr have been guilty of murder in his duel with Alexander Hamilton? No because duels were allowed back then, the same as slavery.

[OlderAndWiser]

We cannot know everyone who was involved in marital infidelity but it is establshed tht JFK and Martin Luther King, Jr. were both serial cheaters. Why shouldn't we remove all statutes and change the name of everything named in their honor?

[BeeNee]

I think the logic on that one is that Me Too is much more about women or men who did not consensually agree to a sexual relationship. I think in order to call something an affair and not rape or harrassment, the two people who are involved are doing so of their own free will thus it is not an abuse, at least to each other. I don't think an affair can be equated to holding someone against their will, destroying their history, forcing them to work endlessly, and subjugating them to all sorts of physical, sexual, and mental abuse up to and including actual murder for the entirety of their lives. Hitler vs. Bill Clinton cheating on his wife---just not in the same ball park.

[BeeNee]

Just as a side note, I visited the Muhammed Ali museum and though many people admired his achievement in sport, in his own museum, there is a whole explanation of how terrible he was as a man to his family because he had affairs and cheated, and this is in his own museum. My personal feelings about statue removal or glorifying certain people is that I much more prefer the solution that some institutions are taking which is to place a plaque by these individuals which explains the historical significance and context of their terrible actions but allows the viewer to create their own judgement rather than specifically remove history from history.

[OlderAndWiser]

@BeeNee I do not equate marital infidelity with owning slaves or killing millions of Jews, but the question is where you draw the line at what level of immorality qualifies you to be erased from history. Is it just those sins that the OC/MSM crowd promote as qualifying for erasure? Yes, I agree with not obliterating history and simply explaining the good and the bad of those who are being highlighted.

[BeeNee]

The pendulum swings back and fourth in what one considers offensive and deserving to be cancelled. For example, a lot of people took umbrage with Trump calling Mexicans rapists, or his comments about women, and yet he wasn't cancelled---a lot of people tried, but he became president and stayed in office despite "impeachment." People tend to think oh the liberals this and that, the mainstream, this and that, but historically that has not always the case when it comes to "the witch" burned at the stake that particular year. Power, money, influence, social media likability, politics, religion, etc. all these forces are at play. Even if we all came together and created a committee of everyone from all walks of life and said, have at it, decide what stays and what goes---the argument would be, why do you represent me or this group of people's entirety of thought on this matter. So you and everyone else waits their turn until the loudest voices and thoughts on the issues of the world are in agreement with you, and then forget or don't care that there is another side of that argument because you're winning.

[OlderAndWiser]

@BeeNee Sounds like lynch mob mentality!

[BeeNee]

Have you spent any time on social media?!? LOL. The feverish masses are everywhere online waiting to pounce on the thing they heard a two second clip of on the side of an ad that they decide they need to go crazy about without knowing even half of the facts. Something being offensive is subjective. You asked where is the line exactly....but no one knows because it's a constant battle between who is being offended and who isn't, and those things as I mentioned, are on a pendulum that's constantly changing. However, the minute you say, you have no right to be offended, or you should be offended by this, we start encroaching on people's rights/free will and their ability to make their own decisions about how they feel about something in life. I still stand by my wish, which is to see history treated in such a way that we explain BOTH the good and bad about people and allow people to come to their own decisions. I don't think we should just blindly put up statues---they should be part of the learning process for everyone.

[AviatorTom]

Jefferson was the main author of the Declaration of Independence, one of the most important documents in history. He should be remembered for that, and a statue of him is one way to so that.

Let's not try to change history.

Have you ever killed a fly? What if, 200 years from now, it becomes a crime to kill any insect. Should your be vilified?

At the time Jefferson lived, it was legal to have sex with a slave. There is also evidence that he took good care of his slaves. Rape? Maybe. We'll never know for sure.

[joeldalton]

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

[Texaskid1]

1984?

[anylolone]

Your objective. You guys took 1984 and took it as a manual.

[anylolone]

Sorry man, I confused with a retarded you responded to...
Sorry. Mathews of something, he already blocked me.

[Daniela1982]

@anylolone Everyone gets blocked on this site. People can't handle contrary opinions.

[anylolone]

I don't block people that don't block me.

[MCheetah]

"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it."
This is EXACTLY what they want. Or as Tommy Wiseau would say...

[RealMarek]

The statue was removed because people have somehow convinced themselves that people of the distant past must be condemned if found to have sinned by the standards of the present. Also, people tend to believe that if they had lived in the past that they would be among the exceedingly few who would reject the moral failings of the past, even though they accept wholly what they are taught in the present.

The other reason that Jefferson’s statue was removed is that strict constitutionalism, a preference for smallholders over massive corporations, fear of judicial activism, and anti-federalism—everything about Jefferson’s politics really—is inconvenient to the current regime.

[Brokenheartedx]

They toppled queen victoria and our present queens statue down... Becos they mistook church of england for the catholic church... Victoria a pioneer to stop slavery in her realms... That queen victoria..

I dont kno much about thomas jefferson apart from being one of the founding fathers of america..

People keep toppling statues theyll be nothing left.. We will live a world exactly like north korea

[najekim]

Because the snowflakes and SJW think that something that happened hundreds of years ago is still relevant today for some asinine reason. They can't distinguish between past and present social, governmental, or legal practices. History is to learn by. Not hide it like it didn't happen. They are the ones helping to divide our country.

[Oigit]

We can't change the past and no matter how deep people bury it, history never stays buried. Removing his statue will not remove him from history. Attempting to bury his negative actions during his life time does not ensure that no one will never learn about them. In the larger scope of things keeping the statue or removing it does not accomplish much.

[Daniela1982]

Doing that would be like tearing down Trump Towers, because of his treatment of women, or anything related to Nixon or any other politician who is not clean. I'm laughing that they tear down statues of past people to throw off any suspicion on the current government's doings and how much they cover up or who they kill to shush everything up. If everyone knew what was going on in secret there would be riots throughout the nation.

[Oigit]

I'm laughing that people still want to play the political blame game. I mean really if and more then likely when the too big to fail banks and wall street crash the economy again. People will still be blaming the side they don't support for the issue. Despite both sides doing nothing to ensure it does not happen again and both sides handing the working class the bill for the bailout again.

[Likes2drive]

They are trying to erase history or anything they think was bad but you know what happens when you forget history, they are doomed to repeat it since they haven’t learned from their mistakes that they don’t know about because they keep trying erase the past

[Waldoe]

slave traders traveled to Africa where they traded goods for Slaves, the slaves were property of other Black Africans, prior to that Slavery was Very Rare in the European nations, but to a trader/merchant, any thing of value was fair game to turn a profit... Africans started the slave trade, it was a part of thier culture for centuries and they Infected the rest of the World...

[FunkyMonkee]

A bunch of brain dead idiots felt he was racist and the statue supports racism and owning slaves is a VERY BAD thing!! I wonder how many of those mindless twerps believe in god a jesus? Both of them professed that you SHOULD have slaves but, I don't see anyone having bible burning bonfires or destroying churches ad demanding that today's bible thumpers pay reparations to the living descendants of THOSE slaves!!!

[cloud9vortex1234]

From what I see people are Cherry-Picking Bad Parts of history just to take things down. Sorry, but slavery isn't the only Bad Thing that happened (in the past) nor is any one race special regarding slavery as the Slave Trade is very old. How ironic is it that their targeting the Founding Fathers of this country? Coincidence? Highly Unlikely

[WhiteSteve]

I’d say the issue with Jefferson’s slavery participation is that he seemingly sired multiple children with one or more of his slaves, and I’m of course just speculating, but I’m guessing enslaved women generally weren’t really enthused about sex with their owners, which, put another way, is rape.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ji2KfpqMlPM

[humanearth]

Read books about dystopian, its the model of whats going on now. They explain a lot

Books like

1984
Brave New World
Fahrenheit 451
We
Walden Two
The Giver
Anthem

[exitseven]

Yes, it is not by accident that 1984 frequents the best seller lists these days.

[goaded]

I don't think Floyd should have a statue, he was never a hero, simply a focus for the decades of racial injustice. Jefferson's statue, while not one of those put up after the civil war to show who was still in charge, was still a monument to someone who could say ‘all men are created equal’, while owning 600 people. If you want to see the statue, go to a museum.

[Anonymous]

its what the left want. If they can erase those who created this country they can try to remake it to what they want. Turn it in to some kind of authoritarian communist socialist utopia, where the only people allowed to have any rights like freedom of speech are those that follow the party politics.

[t-8900]

If people can't see that this is all to change the face of the country and eventually replace our Republic they simply have not sudied enough of the 19th century.

[exitseven]

The liberals hate America and all the values that the great Thomas Jefferson held. Especially the one where he says the "government that governs least, governs best."

[Subarugirl]

The "great Thomas Jefferson" Continually raped a 14 year old slave who bore 4 children.

[exitseven]

@Subarugirl I said he was great, not perfect.

[Subarugirl]

No one who rapes children is great in my eyes

[Exterminatore]

@Subaru

That’s speculation. Do you have proof of these rapes?

[Subarugirl]

@Exterminatore ever heard of Sally Hemings?
www.history.com/topics/slavery/sally-hemings

[Exterminatore]

@Subaru

Wow! You really cracked the case here. Did you read the article? Let me quote it directly for you:

Though most historians now agree that Jefferson and Hemings had a sexual relationship, debate continues over the duration of that relationship and, especially, over its nature.

Did you note the part that mentions there is debate over the duration and nature of the relationship? That is not unanimous agreement and undeniable proof he was a rapist.

Did you know Sally herself was half white? You do know that Randolph Jefferson, Thomas brother could also have been the father. Did you know 3 of the supposed children were given names from the Randolph (surname) family? Did you know Betsy, Sally’s niece was OPENLY the mistress of Samuel Carr, who was Peter Carrs brother. Did you know TJ and Sally we’re separated for 15 months before the birth of the son who most resembled TJ. That would be inconsistent with human gestation periods. Did you know Jefferson took Sally to Paris with him, where slavery was illegal and she could have escaped.

This is why I hate woke garbage so much. You guys cherry pick at history and rewrite narratives.

You have literally no proof he was a rapist. I personally having been familiar with this since I was about 9 think Sally and TJ were lovers. This happed with other slaves. Is the issue she was 14 the problem? I got a real shocker for you. People did not live long back then and it was not only common but the norm
for people to bear children so young and to get married in their teens.

The bottom line is your statements are inflammatory and politically charged. The experts are still debating this issue and you just flat out come to the conclusion Jefferson was raping slaves despite at least 1 being the known and open mistress of other of Jefferson’s family.

[Subarugirl]

@Exterminatore she was 14 and he was 44, she was his slave..

[Exterminatore]

@Subaru

Before we continue this conversation you’re going to have to admit you literally have no evidence of rape. That it’s highly speculative and inflammatory to make such an accusation in the absences of any meaningful evidence.

Her age and his don’t matter. I just explained it was very common for people to marry in those times in their teens. People did not live long. When I was in high school I had sex with other girls 14 and up so I’m not buying that argument they aren’t ready by that age. Kids are getting pregnant regularly in HS now.

As for statutory rape, no such laws existed.

As for him being 44, again. Irrelevant. He would have been a rock star at that time. He was the master of many slaves a leader of the revolution. A key and prominent figure in American politics. Is it a stretch to think young girls or even old ones are sexually attracted to the rich, powerful, and famous? Ever hear of a groopie? Jefferson as we all know when on to become a president.

[Subarugirl]

@Exterminatore As a slave, you can’t say no, and if I remember correctly they never married…

[Exterminatore]

Subaru

Yes, they never married. So what? My point is if you get married at 14, 15, 16, or 17 you a ready for sex mentally and emotionally.

A slave can’t say no? So what? That still doesn’t prove rape. I just told you one was the open mistress of a slave owner meaning by choice.

Your statements slander TJ with no proof, and are politically charged and inflammatory. This rewriting of history to fit the narrative needs to stop.

[888theGreat]

Yes, but he had Slaves. Remember slavery is why they allow riots and smash and grabs , and why a black guy can kill a family of five with a AX and get back out on the street with $200 bail.

So the liberal motto is " We had slavery 300 years ago, so let them steal and kill , we owe it to them".