Recently at my university I noticed more and more Muslim women wearing the face mask called the niqab. Now I've done my research into Islam, I find the religion quite fascinating actually and I found out that not only is it not a part of Islam but that it's practised by extremists to subjugate women.
Here's an Islamic rights activist that can elaborate on it
I brought up the issue on one of my university's Facebook pages and I was removed for calling them ninja masks and oppresive to women. I was called a racist and a bigot even though these people had no idea what the niqab was, thinking that I was refering to all head coverings.
When I provided evidence, they ignored it and kept yelling that it's a woman's choice even though I told them that only Daesh, the Taliban and Saudi Arabia have women dressing like this.
Why do people say that it's their culture when they have no idea what they're talking about? Why are Muslim women's rights ignored but White women's rights are always protected?
Updates
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Over private chat I have spoken with a Muslim who claimed that niqabs are not oppressive and are merely a way to prevent men from lusting over women.
I see that as offensive to men since you degrade all of us to be horny perverted rapists with no self control. Also there's nothing wrong with being interested in women, it makes us heterosexual men who we are. Without a face, the woman has no identity and is not desirable to anyone.
Why are women's rights ignored when it comes to Muslim women?
Society is made up of both men AND women, and beliefs such as you are describing are upheld by both genders for a reason. In fact feminism's greatest hurdle in the middle east is that most women in those countries don't want to give up gender roles and reject the idea of feminism. Your problem is that you are looking at a society that has different beliefs and values than you were raised to believe in, such as the enforcement of gender roles, and jumping to conclusions about a gender being oppressed.
Having a different set of values and beliefs does not mean that men or women are having their rights ignored, they simply have different types of rights and expectations placed on them, than we do. One could just as easily say the men in those societies are the ones being oppressed because of the expectations placed on those men in other areas of their life. There is a reason why most women in those societies support gender roles, and that is because the women get a lot of advantages that they don't want to give up.
This is just a matter of people having different views as oppose to either being right or wrong. People can't even agree on whether or not women should be able to go topless in our society. Some people claim it is restricting a woman's right to do what she wants with her own body, and others claim it is harmful to women on the belief that it promotes the sexualization of women. One lifestyle leads to women being forced to wear restrictive clothing, and the other leads to women having all sorts of body image issues from seeing so many other women running around flaunting their bodies. There are negatives to either lifestyle. It doesn't mean either side is trying to attack the rights of women. They just have different ideas on how to best advocate for women.
As a man do you really want women to cover up, and never see their beauty again? Of course not, and the men in those societies don't want that either. Most guys would prefer to see more of women, not less. As a man it would suck to live in a society were you couldn't openly appreciate the beauty of women. In most cases these rules are put in place to protect women, not to oppress women. That is why the men support their women wearing such things. They think the added clothing will somehow protect the women they care about. We just come from a culture with a different outlook than the people in Islamic countries.
It's not a women's right issue, I think most people do see it as wrong. It's about islam and people trying to be politically correct. Things are changing though, after what happened in germany so suddenly very accepteable there to criticise islam, particularly the role of women in islam.
And yes of course the more extremist religion becomes, the more restrictive it becomes. The more moderate it is, the more liberal it is. There's little doubt about it that at least sometime that kind of veil IS oppressive. timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../47565439.jpg
But what about women who still do it, here in the west? You said at your university. I don't think their life is in danger if they don't wear it. So where does personal freedom end is a very valid question. By saying they're not allowed to wear it, aren't you doing the same thing you're trying to protect them from?
They are coming from Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and this has been forced upon them by their parents and imams so it concerns me that we allow this type of treatment to be brought from the Middle East to the West. Countless Muslim scholars have spoken up against it, I only provided one in the question to get the conversation going.
Don't get me wrong, I think burkas should be illegal, because I think there's an end to personal freedom. You can't go out naked, why should the opposite be ok? It's just rules this country follows, social norms, nothing wrong with that
But I do also think people who say it's their choice have point. I mean you say they come from the middle east and now they live here, so they've seen both and they've made a decision, which is probably more than you can say about yourself I agree, a lot of them don't really know why they do it, it's just normal to them. But who are you tell them that their normal is wrong?
Did you know that wearing a headscarf in public building is illegal in Turkey and has been for a good 50 years. Why does it always have to be extremes? Why do people have to tell women what to wear one way or another? Why not let women choose themselves, free of judgment. Because it's not just the burka, you come to college like this
@Transigence 'nobody?' surprisingly in some countries, a lot of men think this way. I live in a Muslim country and you don't have to wear shorts to be considered as a slut. All you need to do is wear a baby t shirt and jeans, you are already a slut.
@desidoll My bad. I'm a typical American living on planet America. And they may think you're a slut, but I doubt as many think you deserve to be raped, literally, as you think.
Protecting women is a very powerful and universal human instinct.
Yeah... what the person said in your update is disgusting but true. Women have to cover themselves for the sake of men. Why are women the ones who have to modify themselves? What about men learning how t treat women better? I have gone to Muslim countries and unfortunetly a lot of men act like animals around women. I couldn't go one block without getting harrassed and that was a liberal cpuntry I went to. Yes the headscarf is oppressive for many reasons. True it may be some women's choice but for maby others it is not. My younger cousin was 7 when she had to start wearing the scarf. Tell me was that a choice? I'm not Muslim anymore. Left that oppressive religion a while ago. A lot of Muslims don't know the truth of Islam. I've learned that a lot of it is lies. If they read the Quran and actuay learn about the history of their prophet its quite obvious it is not a religion of peace. It's not pro womens rights. I'm so sick and tired of people being politically correct about Islam. It is't holy and it doesn't deserve special respect.
I am taken aback young Lady. Of all the talk I have heard both for and against the Islamic was I think what you have just said has more respect from me than all the other combined. Thank you for your thoughts
Thanks. Sorry for the typos I was typing on my phone. It's just a subject I'm passionate about. I was very religious until about 5 years ago. Prayed 5 times a day since I was 9, fasted every year, went to Sunday school as a child and many lectures as an adult, read the Quran, etc. I started thinking for myself instead of what I was heavily indoctrinated into as a child. I have to pretend I'm Muslim because my parents told me they will disown me if they ever find out I'm not muslim. I wish I could live in a world where I can be accepted for who I am and not have to hide. People don't realize how harmful religion can be.
Because they get away with liberals saying things like "it's their culture, why do you care?" or something like "She chose to wear it " but it doesn't matter if a Muslim woman chooses to subjugate herself, it's still subjugation. There was a Southern man I had a conservation with, he should me a picture of a black man waving the confederate flag so therefore confederate flag is not racist against Blacks. Now, KKK also waves the confederate flag. To many that flag is a symbol of racism does it change because a Black man advocates it? There was a recent poll which found some 21% Blacks opposed the emancipation proclamation. Does that mean slavery was ok then? If Blacks choose to subjugate themselves to their masters, should we just ignore it and turn a blind eye? NO NO and NO The same with this hijab, niqab BS it was designed by men to oppress women. It's a symbol of oppression and society should not tolerate. Funny, recently I read an article of Egypt an Islamic country proposed a bill to ban the Niqab
Also I don't see anything wrong with lusting as long as you respect the other person's personal space, not touch them etc. Lust isn't anything bad. Lust is absolutely important for the survival of the human species. If men and women didn't lust for each other, we wouldn't procreate.
There is a clear difference between a hijab and a niqab. A hijab is a headscarf (there's a similar one worn by Orthodox Christian women while in church) and is in most cases a choice for women to wear while a niqab is a ninja mask that is always forced onto women.
The problem with the Confederate flag is some people truly associated it with Southern Pride and not racism when it is actually the worst symbol to use for that. Perhaps they'll find a new symbol who knows.
As for slavery, not only was that one of the worst things to do to a person it was also extremely stupid from an economics perspective since people that were paid were far more productive.
The hijab has nothing to do with oppression, it's just a headscarf. The face is visible and it is more of a religious commitment to stay a virgin till marriage than anything else.
it depends on a person or culture.. not the religion.. we can find some things we would not agree with in any religion.. I think it's insecure stupid men who try to impose this on women and say this is a religious requirement.. I am muslim.. I wore head scarf for 2 months.. but then summer came and it was hot so I stopped.. no one asked me why I stopped.. or no one said I have to wear this.. so it's about the families where a girl is growing up.. and it's the family and society which makes the girl either accept this extreme thing.. or she starts hating the religion for it because of her family.. the girls who say this is a choice are lying to themselves.. I personally don't agree with some of islamic things.. but I don't hate the whole religion because of them.. I think religions are ancient and every teaching doesn't work in the modern world. so we can update it..
Yea that's why there is heaven and hell. And if we don't have a brain why will be judged after! sounds unfair no! try to be smart nd less arrogant next time ok? bye
Bear in mind, women are viewed in Arabic / Islamic culture as being "lower than cattle." Basically, a woman has fewer rights than a chicken.
This is because Muhammad blames Eve for the Fall, instead of Adam. Genesis and Timothy placing the lion's share of blame on Adam was "offensive" to Muhammad, so he simply rewrote that whole section to suit what he wanted.
Adam's real offense was not eating the fruit, but dereliction of duty as Earth-Steward. An insatiable urge to eat from the forbidden tree was merely the culmination of that desire to be derelict that overtook him. That was the entire point Timothy was getting at with "Adam was not deceived." Eve was deceived by the Serpent's Humanistic philosophy. Adam thought the "becoming gods" part was a bunch of hooey, but had a sudden, irrational urge to break the law anyway.
When confronted, both were immediately reduced to felons, ratting each other out up the chain as part of an attempted plea deal. God found this pathetic, but chose to show them mercy instead of simply wiping out all existence of everything when he had the chance.
Muhammad found this offensive, because he was an entitled manchild hedonist. Timothy's recounting of the first-ever man-on-trial case in human history really ground Muhammad's gears, so to speak. So he essentially rewrote it that it couldn't have been Adam's fault that Adam fell. That "witch," Eve, had to have led him astray! The precious made him do it!
This is why many Muslims have no concept of rape. The victim "seduced" the attacker, simply by being "too attractive to resist." We in the western world take for granted how backwards and irresponsible such thinking is. But in much of the Eastern world, many still think that way.
So why is this backwards mentality seizing control of the Islamic world again? Why is it infiltrating the West so easily? Because the guardians of civilization have an insatiable urge overtaking them at present to commit a dereliction of duty.
Its a part of islam. Not specificly maybe but its based off of the idea of modesty. Men and women should dress modestly and so the more conservative the more covered they are. It would be like saying that the kippah (yamaka) was sexist towards men in jewish faith. Its not about the gender so much as the religon. As for the regions, its usually the more extreme the enviroment the more strict the rules, so two groups who are struggling for power and are found in locations with weak economies this would explain why they are enforced their. By forcing people to a strict set of standards they create homogeny within the society and since its homogenous (the same through out) it makes it much easier to control rather then having to take different approaches with each person or region they can simply have a blanket approach to any tactic or decree. As for saudi arabia it might have to do with it being the birth place of islam and where mecca is located and thus have a much stricter approach to rules since it would not be affective for religious cohesion if the foundational location of your religion was much more lax in its relgious views. Imagine if the vatican was much more open to differences of opinions, it would cause more conservative religious people to turn away while the less conservative may embrace it the fact is they would also embrace a style that may not actually pay homage to the vatican at all (which is kind of what happened during the protestant reformation) thus making them have less power and control over the very thing they where suppose to have power and control over. If you look at pictures in the middle east before its general economic collapse (thanks in no small part to the west and the cold war) they where much the same as western society, it was only when conditions worsend that they became more strict. This is a survival mechanism, so its not that they are sexist or unfair so much as we simply have the luxury of a much more secure society that allows for greater freedoms as any kind of loss of cohesion would not result in catastrophic failure of the civilization/government/society.
I doubt your "research" which is probably comprised of internet searches makes you a knowledgeable person on the matter. However, the underlying feature of why Western counties don't care as much about Muslim women probably has more to do with cultural differences and perspectives.
For example, you are perceiving the plight of Muslim women from a western perspective. Yet, you have never lived in a Muslim dominant country - otherwise, you wouldn't need to resort to internet research to learn about it.
Quite frankly, I would think that your opinion would be very offensive to those with a Muslim background because they know you have no clue what you're talking about. You are like the white man walking down the blackest street in America proclaiming that you know the history and hardships that black people have endured in society because you searched it online.
You would probably be more effective picking an issue in society where you are likely to have a greater understanding in, which is closer to your own society and cultural views.
islam is like other religions consists of some main rules that guide humans and protect them, in any religion when you face a fact you should think of it like could god possibly say or request it... the islam you see nowadays is the heritage of the rolling civilizations who followed the death of the prophet, they turned it in a way which serves their needs and their colonial and invading plans... ISIS follows that version and practice it literally! ... it happened in all religions before islam, when the prophet dies the military commanders take over and change the rulles as it suits them, this is why the way women are treated doesn't make sense and it follows war laws and old ages colonies laws where the woman's job was to please the man and watch over the house. the niqab it self is not mentioned any where in the book like many other things, but you can't blame the religion more than the countries which use the name of religion in their constitution because it serves their needs and give them the full power to control their countries and everything in it including women (which presents the biggest fear for them), women are the key in rolling any civilization !
"Niqabs" aren't really a part of the Islamic religion while hijabs (head scarfs) are. It doesn't say anywhere in the Quran about covering your face. It actually does say that everything should be covered except for the hands, (feet), and face. Those who invented the niqab are just stupid. And only the people from/in UAE wear it. Why? Dunno. Doncare. Although I'm Muslim, I feel like it's not fair that women should cover their hair or most parts of their body while men don't. Oh well. It is what it is.
În islam, women must wear it hijab, but of course it's up to the people whether they wanna wear it or not and no one and nothing should force a woman to wear it if she doesn't want to. These are the facts. I don't care what crazy thoughts other people have about it. @Berethor
The facts are that many muslim women are getting killed by muslim men if they refuse to wear hijab, so how can you say that muslim women have an true choice? I agree that no one and nothing should force a woman to wear hijab if she doesn't want to, but the fact is that many muslim women are forced to wear hijab, and in fact you are lucky if you are able to not wear a hijab as an muslim woman, but then again, you are not living in muslim country so it's harder for muslim men to force you to wear hijab in non-muslim country.
@Berethor Those men who force their wives to wear one don't have to represent all Muslim men. I agree that there are many men that do that and it's idiotic but that's only a fraction of the muslims. Thats not what Islam is about anyway. Some people/countries (like Saudi Arabia) know nothing about what Islam really is. Whatever. It's their choice. I just feel bad for their women.
@asker Honey, the niqab and burqa aren't forced in any country, but the women choose to wear them for some reason. I know people who live in Saudi Arabia for instance and they are forced to cover their head when they're in the streets and wear a long "dress" aka "abaya" but not cover their faces like that.
Islam and Muslims have become a "protected class" by the Politically Correct Police. The hypocrisy is glaring: The PC Police are very, very quick to condemn the abuse of women and girls (and for good reason) in any situation EXCEPT for when it relates to Islam. Where are the feminists when it comes to speaking out against FGM (female genital mutilation), the subjugation and oppression of women/girls, and the denial of basic human rights under the dictates of Sharia? They're no where to be found. In fact, they're so cowardly about this hypocrisy that there response to being confronted about these issues is "we don't want to be Islamophobic." Because, you see, so-called "Islamophobia" is not Politically Correct. Of course the reality today is that the PC Social Justice Warriors affix the suffix "--phobia" to any issue with which they disagree with those who call them out on their hypocrisy.
Well Islamophobia is a real thing when you target normal Muslims that want to live like us. There are many like that. The problem is labelling the fight against niqabs as Islamophobic since it stands against Islam and human rights.
It is a complex issue because some women ARE made to wear them, either through formal means like laws and threat of physical persecution if they don't, or social pressures. But for some women it is a choice, which is just as legitimate as choosing to wear anything. People interpret Islam in many ways, but many consider women covering themselves in this way to be 'sunnah' - an optional practice within the religion. I think the important thing is for people to be educated about as many religions and cultures as possible so they're more able to make informed choices and decisions about what they believe. The niqab doesn't harm anyone, and many women do want to wear it. So they should be allowed to. The only problem is when people are forced to dress a certain way
Why would a woman choose to wear it? It is disrespectful to those around her since it sends the message that people shouldn't be allowed to look at her and that all men are rapists.
About oppression, as is explained in that link; Islam expects men to respect women regardless of what they are wearing.
I definitely agree with you that discourse saying how a woman dresses causes men to assault her is hugely offensive to men. But in terms of who is allowed to look at someone, that should be up to the person. It's like how some people are nudists, which is totally fine, but more people consider certain parts of their body to be private. This at least shouldn't be because they're ashamed of them or fearful of other people who might be looking at them, it's because it's the person's choice to cover themselves. It's the same way for people who prefer to cover more of their bodies. It's their body, nobody else is entitled to look at it if the person doesn't consent
Let's put it that way, I feel disrespectful when a woman wears hot short or something like that, Who am I to judge her or treat her badly? Just cause I "THINK" she's wrong or disrespectful , she even might be better than me Can't we do the same with covered women
Not even that, bdsm is acceptable in WESTERN societies , but still can't accept others differences, ironically its not called ignorance no its called progression, can you even believe it lol , There's no such perfect society, you judge "MIDDLE EAST" , I think you would be surprised to know that judgmental people "MIDDLE EAST" think that western women are sluts and western men are cuckolds cold, just like westerns think middle eastern are terrorists and cave men Thank god I always try hardly to judge my own mind and control my own self,
I'm not a fan of it too, but with the same logic who am I to judge If she wants it then she can do it I bet a ninja mask will be more acceptable more than niqab by progressive societies
Your question reminded me of this little bit of satire. Richard Dawkins got de platformed just for tweeting it, the regressive left can be pretty scary.
Because to leftists/liberals, Muslims come before women's rights. Why do you think feminists are so silent whenever Muslim rapists attack women, especially white European women? When it turned out that Muslim paedophile gangs had been abusing young girls for 16+ years over here while the victims' reports and pleas for help were ignored by the authorities because they didn't want to look racist or for people to start to resist against their multicultural agenda, feminists said fuck all. More recently with the large influx of Muslim migrants and the attacks over the new year, again they were quiet but for a few dishonestly blaming all men, including European men, for the actions of these new migrants.
1. saudi arabia comes to mind for many people when they see niqab. since saudi is the center of islam, i think these people by extension think the niqab applies to all muslim majority countries. frankly, i think women in the west who wear niqab are just making a political statement, nothing more
2. these very same muslim women, their men, and their sympathizers will deny that their rights are being violated
So , it is not the duty of the western world specifically the white western world to force their views and democracy on people. A lot of these , most actually do this out of free will, we need to stop thinking that if they don't have their boobs n Ass out they are oppressed.
It is astonishing how so many religions are polluted by so many different ways of believing and rules set by man as to how is acceptable to worship. I grew up in religion but for many years have been away from it due to oppressive leaders and teachers. I do appreciate your honesty about the revelations you have shared.
it´s a religious symbol for them. it´s like a christian wearing a cross or a jewish wearing a kipa.
for them not wearing it is like it would be for you not wearing pants. now i know that the backround of why this came into existance is of course oppressive but now it´s accepted as religious.
a lot of people also have traditional christian values that also have oppressive backrounds but they still do it, cause they like to do it in order to please their god.
assuming that they do it because they are forced to is an attemt to undermine their religion in their opinion.
From the research that I'v done a huge majority of Muslims who wear the hijab, niqab, burqua etc.. choose to wear it. They legitly want to wear it because of their faith, fashion etc. Of course I know there are plenty of Muslim women who feel forced to wear it and there are some people who literally force women to wear them usually from family members, religious leaders, or political leaders.
The bright side is that there are plenty of groups that have come out and have tried to bring the women who feel forced to wear it out of the shadows.
But let's not forget that it's not the piece of clothing that is a violation of women rights but whether or not they are forced to wear it. Many people tend to get those two things confused.
I don't know your sources , but Islam thought me this 1- the most ultimate super important thing is my mother , and I teach that to my child Life and after life depends on how much she pleased from me 2-financly , if my woman doesn't wanna work its her right 3-still I must help her with house work 4-i can't prevent her from making love to me 5-treating her as sex object is mean 6-compassion and mercy before love 7-rape penality is sometimes death, although athiests have the world record In this crime but I don't consider all atheists rapist A very long list protecting her free will It just depends how do you wanna see it
I do see the point of it, it's just that no woman is required to wear a bikini and people won't throw stones at her if she doesn't (not yet anyway). People won't even judge her if she doesn't. neither do women wear bikinis everywhere they go, it's just convenient beach clothing That's different for many muslim countries and I think it's an important distinction
This is because in other countries, they have not evolved like the US and we have laws for women's rights and most of those places are 100% against it. Plus the poor women there have no opportunity to speak out against living like this. I mean, think of this, even if they hate it, WHO would they tell? It's likely they'd be beaten and killed for going against what their culture and religion dictated.
GREAT question!! Well for starters I think they are raised in this culture and those beliefs are deeply ingrained among these women. However, you'd think exposure to American life, education, etc., might help broaden their horizons. I come from really old fashioned people lol so there might be an element of fear to break out. Imagine an Amish kid who's only used to his family's way, it might be scary to venture out. It's the fear of the unknown, I think.
What you have to understand is that unlike the West where religion is viewed solely as a choice distinct from our culture or ethnic identity, in the Middle East it is often interpreted as a part of your heritage--something you inherit from your parents--something that is synonymous with your cultural and identity. That said, teaching someone from that mindset that certain elements of their culture aren't explicitly tied to their religion is an exercise in futility.
This is a very interesting discussion. But when i step back a moment and read the comments.. i see people wronged other people. Generalization. Hate. On the other hand, the matter that we discussed, the hijab, niqab or whatever it is, is a result of combination between culture and religion. As we know, culture is different everywhere. And we generalize it like it's something that can be accepted globally. No. Hijab, niqab, especially, isn't a light topic. If we want to look for the wrong and the right one here, we'll never get the answer. Because we have to talk about 1M+ customs and relate it to islam practice. You can see that it'll be an endless discussion.
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