Do you think people who don't ever want kids and are capable of having them, are selfish?

[Anonymous]

Someone once said this, and meant it. They felt kids were a biological imperative and if someone who was capable just "chose out of the air" not to have kids, then they were clearly being selfish. Do you agree with that?

[bobby_bush_eater]

Ultimately yes I do but I believe it's out of naivety more than being selfish. I see a lot of people in these comments referencing all the reasons why it's harder to have a kid now, these excuses are exactly why birth rates are dropping so rapidly in most countries.

Women would rather compete in the job market to become a CEO and create their own "utopia" for themselves then do the more beneficial and natural yet also difficult choice of having a family. In almost every large successful civilization that has collapsed the masculinizing of women and dropping of birth rates has taken place.

By saying why bring a child into this crazy world instead of contributing to creating a better one and teaching your children what's right and wrong, you're slowly accepting what society is in the most negative way possible. It perpetuates the cycle. This exact thing happened in Rome in a time of masculine women, low birth rates happened, sexual degeneracy, and insatiable decadence were at all time highs the cities and then the Goths invaded in hoards replacing them and it all eventually collapsed.

I know this is a bit dramatic but I'm surprised to see so many people saying no and disliking having children.

[Peridot25]

What about parents who abuse their children?

[TheSpaceGnome]

@bobby_bush_eater You're overthinking it.

There are much simpler reasons for not having kids that have nothing to do with any of that.

For example I have really nice collectables and I don't want a child breaking them.
I also don't want to clean shit off of someone's ass.
I don't want to teach anyone basic things.
I like having free time, a flexible schedule, and rested sleep.
I don't want to deal with tantrums.
I like exotic pets, swearing, and lewd media.

[bobby_bush_eater]

@Peridot25 they're shitty people obviously, there are exceptions to every rule and generalization naturally.

[bobby_bush_eater]

@TheSpaceGnome to me, in my perspective that is very selfish 🤷‍♂️

[TheSpaceGnome]

@bobby_bush_eater I'm a hedonist, I value enjoying desires as the point of existing.

So the word selfish holds a positive cannotation.

Trying to claim its a negative is self defeating.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Placing importance on selflessness on the otherhand, is the idea that people's desires don't matter, and that everyone should just martyr themselves for everyone else for no reason, which is cruel, but also self contradicting nonsense, because it tries to say hedonism has value, but only to everyone but yourself, and if everyone thought this way, it would hold value to no one.

The people who should have kids, are the people who want to have kids, trying to pressure, force, or guilt people into having them is immoral, because whats the point of saying "think of what other people want" if you are just going to turn around and say that what I want doesn't matter, because I'm still part of "other people".

[TheSpaceGnome]

Basically the only thing that makes selfless acts important, is placing value on selfishness, because by being selfless, you are letting another be selfish. Ignoring that and acting like selfishness is bad is just sillly.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Its akin to saying "I want you to be happy, but how dare you want to be happy!"

It's just crazy talk.

[bobby_bush_eater]

@TheSpaceGnome There is no guilt involved, this is purely my perspective. Having children doesn't mean sacrificing all your enjoyment. Your priorities change but as most people say it is the most rewarding thing a human can do. It's genetically coded in every mammal to reproduce.

Enjoying things isn't bad and that doesn't end with children but mass consumption and decadence is selfish and unrewarding. I couldn't fathom feeling like my life was worth it at 65 years old knowing my bloodline is dead and I contributed nothing but my consumption and brief friendships to the world. You're taking my words to the extreme. What I said of society is true and I can provide many more historical examples to collapsing societies and the stories coalesce into the same versions after a while. Having children and raising them with good moral values is the remedy, it is the most important thing someone can do and it is rewarding.

I'm not saying everyone who doesn't have kids is bad but I think our society as a whole of more selfish and are encouraged not to have kids.

[Asker]

So what would you have women do...force them to have children "Handmaid's Tale" style? I find your analysis very one sided in that you've failed to mention the men that equally choose not to have children for it takes two to tangle. Even mentioning Rome as an actual example is negating the fact that homosexuality in men was allowed. If a society cared so deeply about men being with women alone in order to procreate, wouldn't you think they'd have stopped this practice?

YOu also mention collapsing societies, but we currently have an issue with OVER population so clearly people are frequently getting their freak on in order to continue the human race, and we simply could not actually sustain life on this planet if literally everyone who was viable had kids. We also just had a world wide pandemic that killed millions and we are still going. We've had wars, plagues, people simply killing people, and we have not ceased to exist as a society. A family blood line can also continue if someone else in your family has kids, so a statement saying your bloodline will die is not accurate for anyone but only children with no relatives that can have children anymore.

There is just more to the story.

[bobby_bush_eater]

I completely disagree with the premise we have over population. Only extremely poor mostly sub Saharan African countries and some east Asian countries do. There are so many different metrics that point out the current rates are not sustainable in countries like the USA, Spain, Italy, Japan, and China to name a few.

The reason I focus on women is because they're not important to giving birth and population. A man can have hundreds of offspring and it's not very difficult, women cannot therefore the entire process is more important.

I bring up Rome and focus on women because in almost every civilization that collapsed women had begun becoming more masculine and rejecting traditional values. The long term effect on the society is usually degenerate behavior and feminine male behavior (homosexuality). The point is each time society has slowly stopped caring about it, it is not the only reason a society collapses but it is a large contributing factor. It is also more gradual and the signs are written all over the place in society today.

Of course I would not force people to breed, I am not being that dramatic nor do I think that would ever be viewed as acceptable. My main point is that it is the most important and rewarding thing a human can do is reproduce and raise their offspring to be a good person with good morals and values. The nuclear family is incredibly important. Decadence, degeneracy and selfishness tears the nuclear family down and that's what I hate in society.

If you don't believe me you should read about the mouse utopia experiments and how the mouse society collapses and the very similar parallels of history that have happened among humans

[TheSpaceGnome]

@bobby_bush_eater

1. Actually having children would mean sacrificing my own enjoyment. It would be impossible to live how I want to while being a parent.

2. Changing my priorities because of someone else has resulted in misery for me everytime I've done it, so I'm never going to do that ever again, instead, I will keep my preferable priorities no matter what, and live a happy life.

3. The way its genetically coded is to force the urge to breed through being horny, masturbation curcumvents that, as would steralization, allowing sex that doesn't cause reproduction, my reproductive genes can cope and take a side seat to my other genes.

4. Actually mass consumption and decadence of scientific information, art, games, cartoons, wildlife, stories, and various other nerdy/geeky/craftsman things is extremely rewarding, the most rewarding thing there is in my opinion, right along with mass production of all those things, including things in the natural world, like making extinct animals come back through genetic engineering. Whereas Being a parent is a very restrictive life that leads to boredom for anyone like me.

[TheSpaceGnome]

@bobby_bush_eater

5. I don't value my life based on continuing my "bloodline" (genetic combination), I value it based on how long I can extend my own life. If I'm dead I won't be able to think, let alone appreciate my passed on genes, so I don't get your logic. I'd rather be like john hammond and bring back the genes that are extinct and perfect cloning so the world has more and more types of genetic combination variety. Humans already have a ton of living examples in an unusually high amount of variants (almost as much as domestic dogs do), so they aren't a priority to me since seeing variety makes my artist and science brain happy, ie my desire to see and know and experience it all.

6. You only think I'm taking your words to the "extreme" because you want to live a more boring life than me, and because your "extreme" is your obsession with societal catagorization, whereas I don't agree with most cultural norms or the idea of nations, so that isn't important to me.

7. There is no society as a whole, just individuals who want what they want, some of which who agree or disagree with eachother to varying degrees. When societies collapse we start new ones, and most are heading the wrong direction, so meh.

8. One of the benefits of being selfish is that when people try to encourage or discourage a selfish person from doing A or B, we ignore it. A selfish person will have kids if they want kids, and not have kids if they don't, nullifying that concern.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Humans are not overpopulated, almost everything else is underpopulated.
Go breed some rhinos.

[bobby_bush_eater]

@TheSpaceGnome we can agree to disagree. 🤝

[TheSpaceGnome]

"we can agree to disagree."

Thats the value of being selfish, you get to do what you want despite others disagreeing.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Well, within reason of course anyway.

[Sonorous]

No, I think that's far too simple of a viewpoint. Depending on someone's goals, interpretation can be spun both ways. It's similar to the topic of suicide & cowardice some people love to link together.

A good counter argument for this topic could be to say that having kids is a selfish thing. Most aren't planned & most will have somewhat toxic upbringings due to their parents not being wise or experienced enough to handle raising kids. And by not having kids, we'd be helping to reduce the amount of suffering in the world. Since suffering is inevitable with our life form, then it would always be a selfless thing to do.

Another counter argument could be that we're not a species that is about to go extinct. There's plenty of us out there fucking & accidentally making kids. It's more plausible that we'd destroy ourselves before we ever die out due to lack of propagation.

[dustybiker2]

No.. If people choose not to have kids it's the opposite of selfish. If someone is coming to that decision thinking they would be a horrible parent, that is thoughtful for the future child. Same too if they are not happy with the way the world is.
Cost of living isn't getting better. A lot of people are having a hard time paying basic bills. There are going to be generations of kids who couldn't to go to college for higher education and will never be able to own their own homes at the rate the world is headed.
Stepping off point, but feel it's connected.. They are already mumbling about not having enough airline pilots (for one example) because schooling costs too much. And there is a cut off age limit and forced retirement. This is going to become a common theme.
So what starts as a basic "should I have kids" might become a bigger impact if more people lean this direction based on costs alone.

[ArrowheadSW]

I agree. I think choosing to not have kids is the opposite of selfish. Conversely, having kids can be considered to be selfish, depending on the circumstances.

[dustybiker2]

Yes, very true.

[sage2021]

When I was in my 20's I remember meeting this young lady that had just got married. So back then it was natural to think about having kids next. She said she didn't want any. I remember saying to her "Don't you think that's being selfish"? I don't even know what made me say that. Probably because that's what people though back in those days.

I believe completely different now. Honestly, the way the world is so screwed up and scary I wish people wouldn't bring innocent babies into this world only for them to have to navigate this life for the next 80 or 90 years. That's a long time and life is more of a struggle more than ever anymore.
But people are going to do what they want. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[Peridot25]

You thought that way because you were raised to believe everyone is the same and wants the same. But, now you know that’s not the case.

[Xia1994]

@Peridot25 that’s so true! We all experienced life so differently and we’re all different, so we won’t all live our lives the same way and sometimes we can’t afford to live our lives the same way. Sometimes it’s easy to think everyone must be like you and live like you and your family but the more you live you realise just how unrealistic it is to think like that.

[Asker]

I'm glad to see you've changed your mindset, but one thing I will disagree on is the way the world is. People of every generation are like, the world is so horrible now, but a lot of previous generations were literally sent into world wars that meant the death of large portions of society. I can't sit here with any respect for that and what they went through in this generation now and go, its so much worse for me or my nephews now. There are very hard things in every generation, but in every generation are born people who challenge them and fight to make things better for us all. So kudos to the people who keep it all going AND to the ones that help them in their journies or create their own.

[petitedollbabee]

Not at all. Better to not have kids and then regret it, than to have kids and regret it. All children deserve a parent but not all parents deserve children. Some people don’t have a want for kids, so why force it upon them? Why force that child to have uninterested parents?

[HappyWoman34]

No I don’t. I have autism and numerous mental health issues running in my family line and not only could I not afford to raise children, I’m also not mentally well enough (severe depression, somewhat treatment resistant); that I’m on the pension for. I don’t want to bring children that I can’t provide stability for into the world. I think that’s irresponsible and selfish. There’s a reasonable risk of having severely disabled kids. Which would destroy my life and that of my partner. If I were to marry. I have sensible reasons for choosing not to have kids, as much as I love them. There are others faced by the same or similar dilemmas. It’s people’s bodies, their right to choose.

[monorprise]

Yes!

Your ancestors for billions of years worked, and sacrificed carrying forth the torch of life just to make your life possible.

For anyone to simply choose to abandon that responsibility to carry forth the touch of life for future generations in favor of simply living for themselves alone is supremely selfish!

You were given the touch of life to pass it on so that someone else might have the same chance you did. Instead you betrayed that deal and stole all your posterity future just to maybe live a little better yourself.

[Xia1994]

Easy for you to say… some people aren’t having kids because they’re suffering with pedophilia, others a can’t afford them cuz they’re sleeping out under a bridge, others are scared they’ll pass on their schizophrenia to their kids and they don’t want them to struggle, others are disabled, others know they may abuse their kids so they protect them by not having them, others are disabled and can’t have kids, others are drug addicts and they don’t wanna hurt their kids because of that, some have never even had parents in their life and they don’t have kids because they don’t know where to start shall I go on?

You can’t be so quick to label or as selfish without knowing the whole story! Don’t go around think everyone who doesn’t want kids and says they don’t want kids will give you a detailed explanation as to why they came to that conclusion they don’t owe you that.

[monorprise]

@Xia1994 We can dispute the validity of every excuse you can make up. The point is none of these problems are new, what is new is we are no longer producing even enough children to sustain our own population.

Even adding up all the small number of people who have all the valid excuses you can come up with there is no way they would even come close to accounting for such catastrophic failure rate.

So go ahead list every red herring excuse you want at best your providing how insane said people have become to allow such excuses to end it all.
At worse your just using them as a bad excuse to justify sacrificing every future generation to living for yourself alone.

[Xia1994]

I’m not giving you excuses, those weren’t excuses the point I was trying to make went right over your head but it’s okay.

[monorprise]

@Xia1994 They were in fact excuses, I remind you an excuse is literally a "an explanation that frees one from fault or blame". That is what you were attempted to do by giving reasons to justify people's choice to freeload on life.

The excuses you listed either constitutions a insignificant minority or are frankly lazy excuses that set unaffordable standard for survival. You don't have to be a perfect parent, nor have a perfect record nor secure resources.

Almost nobody does and if we held to that standard there would be almost no future tomorrow and not future at all the day after.

[loveslongnails]

I've been hearing that my whole life and it's bullshit. LOL I knew when I was 15 years old I'd never want kids. The "biological imperative" argument is a fallacy. The Earth's population is still growing, even if there are some down years.

I think it's a great decision, and a very UNselfish one, to recognize that you don't want that kind of responsibility. There are way too many people who should NOT be parents but are, compared to the relatively small number of childless couples. Civilization as we know it is not collapsing because there's a 1 or 2% spike in childless couples. LOL

[Peridot25]

Not at all. In fact, I’m one of those people who don’t want kids. I don’t want the responsibility. I don’t want to be a mom for the rest of my life. I don’t want to put my body through all that pregnancy stuff. And I’m not mentally stable enough to raise a child, let alone babysit one.
If anyone wants kids, I give them my upmost respect.
I rather be honest than have kids I never wanted. To me, that’s cruel. There’s a whole bunch of people who have kids and are absolutely shit parents. A lot of people don’t deserve kids.

[Asker]

I could not agree more. Just because you have kids, doesn't mean that's best for those kids or else we wouldn't have case workers dealing with children being abused by their own parents and having to go to foster car. I think we should all respect each others personal choices on the matter of to have or not have kids no matter the reason.

[Xia1994]

never, you are not selfish for not wanting kids! It’s your body and you don’t owe anyone an explanation as to why you don’t want kids.

this is your freaking life you have every right to life it as you please that’s why you have free will. Imagine if the tables were turned and people who don’t want kids told people who wants kids they are selfish for having kids? It would be early war 50!

The double standard are baffling 😩 stop calling people selfish for not having kids! Go enjoy your children and life and stop attacking childless people for no reason! It’s so upsetting man you too are selfish 🫵 for calling people who don’t want kids selfish how about that? 😠

[Xia1994]

And I’m not directing this to you asker only the ones here going around thinking they’re entitled to telling people who don’t want kids to have kids.

[TheSpaceGnome]

I prefer to be called selfish, I think being selfless is crazy. Desires matter enough to prioritize them.

[Xia1994]

@TheSpaceGnome that word has negative connotations to it so I’m speaking on behalf on everyone who doesn’t want kids who gets called selfish as a way to make that person feel bad, less than or as if they’re doing something wrong for not having kids.

[TheSpaceGnome]

i see it as a positive cannotation because it prioritizes one's own happiness.

[Xia1994]

@TheSpaceGnome the comment I made is intended for people who call people who don’t want to have kids selfish as a way to make that person feel bad, less than or as if they’re doing something wrong for not having kids.

If you’re happy being called selfish then my comment here was not meant to apply to you.

[TheSpaceGnome]

if people stop seeing the word as a negative, then they won't feel bad about caring for themselves.

I know what your intent was though.

[Xia1994]

@TheSpaceGnome I see your perspective as well 💯

[sawno]

No, depends on where you life and if you can provide a good future for the child. Take china for example, children are born into what is effectively slavery there. In the west I see us move in the same direction, and the future I imagine we are heading towards I would not want to life, so I don't consider it bad or selfish to withhold from children until there are signs of a better future.

[MemeSupreme]

no if someone isn't ready for a kid then how the fuck would it be selfish to have one. not everyone are meant to be parents.

atm i don't want kids bc i don't wanna fuck them up. if someone just doesn't want the responsibility then it's good they don't wanna kids. too many parents are like that

[Sassy_snake]

Well, I have a friend who doesn't want kids and they have good reasons for it. They didn't grow up well at all and they just want a different life than with kids. Though, if they didn't have a good reason, and they maybe just "don't wanna" then I'd understand how you could view that as selfish. I think everyone should experience having children. It can be an amazing thing and if you have the opportunity you should take it. Children are a blessing from God. Though, God says you don't have to get married or have children. You can stay single and child free if you really choose too. Though I wouldn't just do it to do it. You should have good reasoning as to why you want to not have kids. Past experience, trama, etc.

[IslaTheWitch]

no... they are wise... why hurt a living being by bringing it to this world when they don't want it? Check kids in orphanages and emergency stations... see what is the fate of children not really wanted or having immature parents

[Peridot25]

Jeez. I don’t want kids but I’m not a monster.

[IslaTheWitch]

@Peridot25 isn't it what I wrote?

[Peridot25]

You act as if those who don’t want kids will harm kids.

[IslaTheWitch]

@Peridot25 and where did I write it? I wrote those who don't want kids and are FORCED to have them... sooner or later will leave them... it's what happens now, this very moment around the globe

[AviatorTom]

No, people who do not want kids would not be good parents, and that is important. Kids deserved to have good parents. People who decide not to have kids generally know they would be poor parents, and it's good that they then choose to not have kids.

[Peridot25]

You’re not wrong. I know I would be. And to be fair, there’s parents who don’t even make good parents themselves.

[SolitarySolace]

How would someone be able to know if they're good parents without having been parents? If they're good with kids that's all it means they're good with kids doesn't mean they're good parents. @AviatorTom

[AviatorTom]

@SolitarySolace Think of it this way...
You're offered a job that you really don't want but you take it anyway. Do you think you would be good at that job? Parenting is like that.

[Kingofkings1992]

@AviatorTom that’s a really judgmental stance. You can’t say every single person who doesn’t want kids wouldn’t make a good parent

[TheSpaceGnome]

As someone who doesn't want kids and is able to have them, yes, i'm being selfish, but I'm a hedonist, so thats a good thing in my opinion.

Do what you want in life, otherwise there's no point to doing anything.

Trying to make being selfish seem bad is anti-fun and anti-self preservation.

I'm not having any kids, and I don't care if that bothers some people, they can cope. 🤷🏻

[Chelsdope0]

How am I selfish because I don’t want to have kids and I want my tubes tied?


I think me not having kids is one of the most selfless things I could ever do.. because I’m acknowledging that I’m not ready to have a child and I can’t give a child what it needs emotionally… no child I bring into the world deserves the unhealed version of me…. But I really just don’t want kids.

[MysticDevice]

I don't believe that. If someone is not mentally or financially prepared to have kids its better that they don't. Otherwise that kid is going to be a mess and the cycle repeats.

Financial preparation aside, mental preparation is critical. I see too many people emotionally crippled by their own kids and I just think why... why did you even bother.

[SolitarySolace]

No, I do not think it is selfish. I don't want to have children for various reasons. One of those reasons is I don't want to pass tourettes syndrome down to the next generation in my family. I want it to end with me. Also, I can't afford children even if I wanted them. I'd end up jailed for being unable to pay child support. I refuse to destroy my own life in order to have children.

[Anonymous]

I don’t understand how anyone can see it as selfish if one chooses not to have kids, regardless of whether they are capable of having them.

Some people are truly just not cut out to be parents and don't have that nurturing nature that kids need.

[CheeseMonster]

Even if it was "out of thin air" that someone decides not to have kids, that still wouldn't be selfish. If you don't want kids, that alone will negatively effect your kids. That alone is a good enough reason not to have kids.

[jennifer_bloom]

I think if you don't want kids, it means you are not equipped to have them because once you are biologically and spiritually mature enough to be a parent, you will have a craving to be a parent.

[Anonymous]

No the world is already overpopulated. If people don't want to have kids they shouldn't have to, it's not selfish. Just like it's not selfish for people not to want to work in a certain field. The fact is that maybe they have financial problems, health problems, are more work oriented, don't like kids, etc... there are many reasons and none of them make them selfish to not want to have kids.

[Peter_Penetrator]

What is selfish is having kids when you aren’t fit to have them. I am bipolar. There is no way l would want to risk passing that on to any children. Nor would l risk my bipolar disorder potentially causing harm to any children.