Have you ever been extremely direct with your intentions? Like "your hot we should hang out" or "I've got an hour to kill let's bang"
Let's here some stories
Based on custom and tradition, likely the man makes the first move. However, that is not always true and in my case it made a difference.
To start, I had been badly hurt in a relationship - I will spare the details - but it was really bad and even to this day it still hurts. So I was not really in the market but had been riding a serious emotional roller coaster.
Anyhow, I worked for a Member of Congress and we put on an event. In walks this pretty girl. She caught my eye right away. A pretty smile and the most beautiful eyes. She worked for a think tank and we got to talking... and talking... and talking. So much that my CoS mentioned it at the end of the evening.
The gal and I exchanged business cards but it did not take me long to come back to Earth. I was hurt and - frankly - the last thing I wanted as I was getting my sea legs back was another relationship.
Funny thing. She dropped by my office to give me some informational materials that she could have easily e-mailed to me. Then she invited me to some "business lunches." First they were in groups, then I still remember getting to the restaurant - and it was just her.
Then she would drop by again and again with more materials that she could have e-mailed. At first the materials were relevant to legislation that my Boss had cosponsored but then it was stuff that we barely had any interest in. Still, lobbyist do that and other than the personal visits instead of e-mail, I really did not think much about it.
Slowly but surely it dawned on me. "Hey, I think this girl likes me." So, finally, not really wanting to and scared to death, I asked her out to dinner - of a non-business variety. We saw a movie after that.
She made me laugh. She held my hand without asking. I still remember our first kiss. I REALLY remember the first time - and she said it first - that she loved me. (I was floating on air. I remember the lighting in her apartment hallway. I remember the carpeting. I can tell you EVERYTHING about that moment down to the last molecule and the last second.)
Well, 12 years later and not a few bumps along the way, she - and the three little munchkins she has given me, the most beautiful wonderful gifts a woman has ever given a man - is the center of my universe. I can get through any day any frustration any disappointment so long as I know, the next morning, I will wake up and feel her next to me and holding me.
So I cannot speak to all women. However, I know how it worked out in my case. I would not change it for the world. I am so lucky to have her and my little munchkins - and I owe it all to her making the first move... er... moves, and holding me when I needed it.
Depending on what you mean by first "move", I'd say women do it quite often. Face it, if she is standing in front of you, looking up into your eyes and smiling at you, and has relaxed, open body language, she is interested. It's her "first move". If you notice her hanging around you or if she is the one who walked up to you, it's an even more certain indication. She might try to engage you in conversation, laugh at your jokes as if you're charming and funny, and even touch your arm with her hand in a easy, playful manner to punctuate some of her responses. Touching is a sure sign.
All those signals are called being flirty.
If she is shy, she might just find opportunities to be in your proximity. You'll catch her repeatedly looking at you and then turning her eyes down nervously when you notice her. She might blush and fidget.
If she's bolder, she might just look straight at you from across the room and give you an interested smile. It's all about having the ability to read body language.
Short of those kinds of things, what is she supposed to do, hit you over the head with club and drag you off to her lair? What woman wants to be with a weak fuck who is too awkward to respond to any of her signals. They are looking for men. They aren't looking for lunkheads who can't pick up on the most obvious of hints, either.
Women are hesitant to come straight out and ask guys on dates. One of the main reasons is that many guys will assume that she is a "slut" who picks up guys all the time. I constantly hear the word slut used to describe perfectly nice women.
Plus, guys like to feel dominant as opposed to submissive. They feel less masculine when the woman is assertive. It's like a role reversal.
Men like the feeling of being looked up to as big, strong, protectors; knights in shining armor, who can handle any situation. And when a woman sees him that way, she also assumes that he is powerful, virile, and capable of dominance as well as tenderness when it comes to sex.
When a woman isn't interested it's totally obvious. Her body language is closed. She might cross her arms and have a cynical expression. She might smirk and turn away as to say "In your dreams, sonny." Or she might simply be dismissive, ignore you, or act like you don't exist.
LOl so it’s really none of my business whst people want to fo
but watching women and men say year after year “ well it’s not the norm for women to ask so it’s understandable that they don’t”
{or “they do in subtle ways” when everyone very straightforwardly knows what you are asking And it is not whether she smiles at a certain degree Angle while he looks in her direction somewhat.🙄🙄 }
it’s really annoying to me bc
1 women DO ask guys out, so there isn’t any actual obstacles. Many decide just to, but it’s simply bc they don’t wish to. There is No inherent disability that women possess that Lewis turn from asking guys out. Stop excusing it. They do or they don’t just like guys will or won’t. A person is either shy or outgoing it doesn’t matter what sex they are.
2 Things are only “ out of the norm” until they are done Normally...
if anything “ being uncommonly done” is a reason to do something MORE not less.. Not a reason to not do it.
I’m not sure why this particular thing bothers me. People say all kinds of things that are flawed.. I think it’s the Disconnect between being expected to act like an adult— except in relation to your ADULT-relationship, that gets to me.
The way women agree to live a bipolar existence.. There isn’t Anything in life where you can just say doing nothing is the right thjbg to do.. unless you are a woman, dating.
I understand some people are shy But even then you can work through it And men are more willing to do so.
It’s when the only reason a person won’t ask someone out is bc they feel that if they do, that person won’t be interested.. Obviously someone has to ask someone.. And the asking falls on the shoulders of the guy..
So , immediately before the dating begins, the initiator (guy) has the privilege and respect of being accepted as an adult. The perused ( woman) , does not.
It never ceases to bother me that this is accepted.
and of course I also think it is unfair for men to be expected to do all the initiating. It’s too much pressure when often nothing happens. It also makes it difficult to clearly reject someone stem they think if they just keep trying...
The whole set up is dumb and infantilizing for women and way too taxing for Men... I don’t see why we have overCome so many other idiotic Rituals.. yet this one gets excuse after excuse.
Just let it go. It isn’t useful app it does is make people feel doubtful and confused and stressed out.
The important part is getting to know each other.. initiating doesn't prove anything.. it just gets the ball rolling.
Preach, sister!
And your last sentence is spot-on.
@Jamie05rhs
Lol that is the part I find most maddening— but I completely forgot until the end 😅
It’s crazy how mic attention and energy is expected to be put into preliminary periods.
Then of COURSE it feels tragic when things don’t work out. Wayyyyy too much energy.
Energy should correlate with levels of attachment and intention.. . You don’t go all out when you meet a stranger you are interested in dating or just sleeping with.. then Take your gfs or boyfriend for granted. Not without becoming a bit of a crazy person. 😂 🤦♀️
@Jamie05rhs
To you and me at least lol 😂🤷♀️😊👍🏻
Lol. But just to clarify, I'm always serious. I don't date someone unless I see them as a potential long-term partner. It's just that I don't think people should get ahead of themselves and stress out about whether or not there's a spark when you haven't even met them yet.
@Jamie05rhs
Oh that’s why I added intention
It’s totally fine being serious when you are serious
But people who don’t even know if they feel like dating, will pull all this crazy everything into getting someone intersted, just to decide meh 🤷♀️
I think it would be healthier if instead of looking at dating as a numbers game.. see how much interest you can generate then pick
people were encouraged to build towards an actual quality relationship
I just think it shouldn’t be a big deal if the start was totally awkward and weird. Give it time and let things grow. It’s unreasonable to think you can judge a person based on a few short interactions. That goes both ways good or bad.
I do t think this really matters for people who have serious intentions bc they are usually more real tic. But the more casual daters need to stop taking themselves so seriously.. it’s better if everyone gets in the Game rather than making it so complicated it’s painful to watch lol
Well, I'm not a casual dater. And I don't play the numbers game. I was once talking to 2 girls at the same time and it caused me a lot of stress because I didn't know what to do. I'm a one-woman man. I can't handle that bullsh*t.
@Jamie05rhs
I hear you. I’m the same 👍🏻
I'd prefer other people to make the first move, especially since I'm shy and am fairly afraid of rejection (as I'm sure most people are). That said, I'm willing to make the first move if I'm sure there's at least some chemistry, I'm really into him, and he's shy or doesn't seem like he's going to make a move.
I wouldn't be as blunt as the examples you gave, but I'd probably hang out with him a bit alone then say something like "hey I really enjoy spending time with you" then drop the question of dating.
Also it kinda goes against the norm, so a girl making the first move is probably a big thing for her to do and it means a lot
Opinion
54Opinion
So when I was in high school a girl approached me and asked for name. I told her my name and she walked away. Everytime she would leave class as she had to escort her friend in crutches, she would scream bye to me. She would give me love notes And say I was really cute. She would scream marry me In the middle of class. She would say she couldn’t sleep at night thinking about me. I was so pissed at the time because I was going after another girl who was like a 7 in my grade. This chick who approached me tho was one of the hottest in the school and in her grade which was 1 year younger than me. She gave me a love note and threw it right back at her and she got the message. After that she would just stare at me with a blank face. I was 16 at the time. She was 15. I didn’t really know what to do because I was the smart cute one in classes but I never got hit on like this ever in my life before. I rejected her brutally and what to this day I feel disgusted at what I did. Sure I didn’t like her but for a girl to have the confidence to approach a guy just made it special. I felt stupid because I want more girls to be like her. If she sees a guy she likes I want her to approach him. I feel like I destroyed her confidence in approaching other guys. I want more people especially women to be like this. Stop sending stupid signals and commit.
Wow that's rough dude. Have you ever tried reaching out to her
I sent him a facebook request, he wrote to me, i suggested we meet up and asked if he was single, he said he was and sure. Then we started dating because I asked if he liked me and wanted me to be his girlfriend and he said yes. That's my story. I made it pretty easy to him that i liked him, but he was also letting me know he felt the same.
The first half of my life living as a guy, I can't tell you how shy I was. I think women should ask out shy guys because otherwise they are missing out on a whole demographic. The second half of my life, I am a woman, a trans woman, I am still a little shy, but less so, I will try to approach anyone just to talk and include them because I believe everyone has something special to contribute. Guys and girls approach me now and it's a new experience. It makes me feel good to be appreciated that way and I think no matter what gender you or the other person is you should just do it. ... and be upfront and open, the other person is usually not a mind reader.
I kinda wish everyone would read this and learn from it
Jesus dude. When complimenting an attractive woman of any "league" never compliment their looks if you're not in a private setting. It won't mean much to them as theyre told theyre attractive all God damn day. It takes work to put an outfit and make up on. Compliment their good work and admire them with your eyes. She will know what you did and that you appreciate a well dressed woman.
If i know the woman and I'm sleeping with her I just send a "come over, there's a problem you need to fix" text and since she's not dense she gets it and comes over.
Anything else I can help with?
Also 99% of the time they won't approach you if you have never approached them first.
Even when guys want that, the truth is guys don’t generally take that girl seriously... very rarely do they do.. and in fact right away labor her as easy and judge her by assuming she must do that with every guy and talk about with their friends instead of the way they’d view a girl that THeY made a first love on and so on.
But isn't that kind of a double standard. When a guy approaches a girl they assume he does that to every girl. You just described exactly what happens when men approach women. Accept it's not hese easy its hese such a creep
We're not talking about how your cousins don't respect women. We're talking about how a woman who makes the first move is sought after, attractive. Most of the time women act as if guys aren't even on their minds.
can't speak for every guy
@IHateBeingaMan lol look at all the male down votes..
I will tell you one thing... most men from this website and pretty much everyone not just men, but most here are not like the average person in real life. That’s the difference and why most would disagree with what’s really real.. because most here have a different mindset than what you see in real life... most here are introverts, quiet and shy.. etc etc... most even lack social life... which is why we can’t really rely on what is being said here unless you aim to date people from this website.
Don’t worry we all understood your typos 😊
Right away level*
Make a move* on
I have a question:
Why would YOU take a guy seriously who wouldn’t take someone seriously bc they approached a person they like?
Maybe SOME Guys are like that but not all
And the guys who are, they are patronizing and hypocritical without any true respect for a person behaving like an adult and going after what they want with no games.
why Accommodate them? doesn't it make you kind of sick people behave this way? Where to them you Have to behave like a child to win approval as a woman they Would date?
I’m genuinely asking bc I see Women often Give this as a reason for why they won’t make a move..
To me, It’s like seeing someone say “I won’t Make the first move bc a childish person won't date me“
So I honestly don’t get it 🤔
A few do and they are usually really strange like one as a server throwing my food at me, another punching me, and one intentionally bumping into me. I went to pick up a car and the agent, a cute pale brunette, grabbed my hand when she gave me the keys and then we went out. One woman just did a deer in the headlights stare on me at the hardware store and it was I have to say memorizing and we did hit it off. But, the most direct was a blonde petite at a yacht race walked up to me on the dock bikini-barefoot, never said a word and took my hand and led me below to have sex. She got in the bunk and pulled me on top of her. Still not often enough. ..
I don't know if i do make first move. Usually the guy shows some kind of interest either by striking a conversation or bu giving more subtle hints. After he does that I may try to initiate too but i keep it friendly. Usually, if a girl talks to you more than once or twice in a month she is interested.
I don't make clear moves because I am shy, I don't know how to direct it from there and I honestly want to see if he "has the balls" to risk being rejected.
You want to see if he has the balls to get rejected because you don't?
Yes, i don't have balls/testosterone like a man. What is so surpising? Higher testosterone makes someone more prone to take risks, so i view braveness to be a sign of virility.
Yes of course. But its only brave and confident if you find him attractive. It’s creepy and inappropriate if you don’t.
@westwordbound Anyone has 1 change, it gets creepy when he can't take rejection.
*chance
You might feel that way but many (if not most) women don’t. I’ve heard women say they felt creeped out when an unattractive guy just said “hello” to them. They know it’s not fair but that “bad feeling” is there. It’s always about the feeling first, not the reality of the situation.
A year ago I had a woman say “get the fuck away from me” when I approached her on the dance floor.
Women have a responsibility to tactfully communicate better.
As a man I do not know:
- if she is taken or not
- if she is having a bad day or not
- if she likes me or not (most important)
@westwordbound That would be rude. When you approach someone you can't know if they like you. Even the hottest guy can experience rejection. Unless there is something inapproriate in the way you approach I don't think anyone should react like that. Also, I am not strictly talking about making a bold move and directly ask for her number. A shyer approach could mean that you try to sit next to her or talk to your friends about how you would like to spend time with her/how pretty she is and make sure she hears you.
That girl was a hoe. But still that did sting. She wasn’t a kid either, around 30’.
And yes even the hottest guy can get rejected. I was constantly being told I was “cute” by girls in my 20s but I got rejected if I was too awkward.
Anyway this all comes down to respect. I’m fine being the one to approach. But if a guy you are not interested in has the balls to politely approach him this is what you say. “Hey so so. I respect you for having the guts to approach me. But I have to be honest, I’m just not interested. But you did nothing wrong but I want to be fair to you”’. Just saying that will solve the problem 95 percent of the time. I have had a minority of women reject me the RIGHT way by saying something along those lines. But most don’t have the respect to do that.
*approach you
@westwordbound I wouldn't do that because I don't know the guy and somemay react with anger to it. It may be the most respectful way, but since creeps exist you won't get that. I am usually more subtle with rejection.
Yes creeps exist. But more often it’s innocent, well meaning guys who get labeled creeps when they did nothing wrong.
Back in my early twenties when I was working my way through college, was athletic and better looking, it made me very uneasy when women would approach me. I didn't know how to react. I was thinking to myself, "Um... okay? I don't have a job, no money, living with my parents... what do I have to offer her?"
Today, I would've handled it differently. Back then, I didn't know any better. But you live and learn.
I've had women be upfront wanting sex at clubs or on dating apps but they were all unattractive, as you might expect.
The most I've had from attractive girls is them coming up and talking to me which has given me the opportunity to make a move, but I've never had an attractive girl do anything more than that.
In my experience, every now and then. Only one person has been bold enough to talk openly though. I've had 2 girls say they were going through anxiety and other emotional stuff and needed to "cuddle naked" (such an odd phrase. How did two people think of it?), and 2 girls say nothing but get suddenly handsy.
The direct person earned some attraction points, and the indirect people turned me off.
I get that. I was walking through a club once, made eyes with a girl. She walks over wraps her arm around my waist, presses her boobs against me and smiles. Never said a word. Literally not one. We got separated in the crouded club lol
Well we can't really know for certain, I don't think anyone is really keeping calculations or studies of that sort of thing. All I know is that there are some women who are straight forward and some who are not. But i was one of those girls who asked my boyfriend out first though but that was the first and last time I'd ever ask man out to a date.
2 girls made the first move on me, cuz I usually dont make any moves. One went on a couple dates and she dropped me for no reason. And 2 she asked me out and then decided to move back in with her ex, so we never went out.
Word of advice girls, do not make a move unless you are actually interested, and you got a clue that he is too.
More when they're drunk, horny, desperate, or over 30.
2 of the 3 times I've been approached in my life have been in this situation. The other time was when I was 15 and a girl in my tennis group had the hots for me and came up to me and approached in an attractive way without desperation written all over her face.
It depends on what you define as "making the first move". If it means smiling at him or making other use of body language, having a third party mention she is interested, saying hi on a dating app or on social media or discreetly flirting or starting a convo with the intent to get him to talk to her and get her number or ask her out, it's a lot higher than people think.
Never they know they don’t have to. There is an endless supply of desperate pathetic men out there lined up behind every women. Just look at some of the loser in here who rate every girl who post a pic a 10/10 or 40 year old fat fuck who hit on 16 year old girls I swear 40% of the male population should just disappear
Not often enough... and for all you ladies out there.. please be less subtle and more obvious. That'd be great. I hate to think about all the missed opportunities because I'm simple and miss the subtleties.
I’ve told a guy I liked him before he said anything if that counts
I have had 2 women ask me out before. The first I went on a couple dates but we had nothing in common at all. The second I spent about two and a half years of my life with and when I was about to ask her to marry me she left, so there is that. I am married now to a woman I approached but it does happen. Not frequently mind you but I think it's a good thing overall.
That depends on how one defines the first move. In girls' minds they've made the first move if they've been within 30 feet of the guy, added him on social media, looked at him even if he didn't notice, said something to him even if he didn't hear her, ignored him, or any of their other subtle hints that are oh so obvious but never really land.
In terms of actually asking the guy out, very rarely.
I have been approached like a dozen of times. I barely talk to girls or even have girl-friends but still it has always been so for me.
I have approached like one or twice ever and got rejected once. My friend asked me to approach that girl by the way 😂
I had a move made on me... if what you describe is extreamly direct then this is one above that I fell asleep after a few drinks on her dad's couch and woke up mid-blowjob... I honestly didn't know she liked me until (my workmates and even my boss knew)
I did it only once. I figured if I made a move first, he's not really interested in me.
I am happily married to a man who chased me. If I had to chase him, what are the odds he's going to go down on one knee and ask me to marry him? Probably, never.
For how long did he chased you?
Just curious
@SportsNerd few months. Around 5-6.
Sorry to the 2 blue downvotes, it must be a bitter pill to swallow.
@VIVANT yes.
@AllThatSweetJazz truth hurts.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean you should ignore it and buy into nonsense that makes you feel good. It might hurt you but you should face it anyway.
My friend confessed her feelings for a guy she’d been hanging out with and asked if he wanted to kiss. He said no and his mom came to pick him up. It happens.
We'll geez asking to kiss is super full on after first saying she likes him. She scared him off by being crazy. Of course he said no.
@MusicMayhem He lead her on for months making comments about how they’d be a cute couple and he really wanted to ask her out, so she really thought he wanted to be with her.
Doesn't matter. If you do creepy shit, you're going to turn people off.
The majority of women I've dated over the last 20+ years have been the initiators. Their pick up lines have ranged from "where have you been all my life?" "to would an offer of oral sex get you interested?"
I do it pretty much with every guy
Well you are a unicorn my dear
Very rare. And if they do, it's usually not that direct as in your examples. They are usually more subtle about it and like to "hint".
I remember meeting one girl in a bar though, I thought she was hot, but I didn't think I had a chance in hell, but I guess she was into me also. General conversation turned into her asking me some personal questions (almost in an interview style lol), and then simply said, "hmm, maybe" lol
And a while later (don't know if it was the same night or a different one?), she then planted a kiss on me totally out of the blue. I just stood there in shock because I wasn't expecting it at all.
I thought about him so im expecting him to take the hint already
That seems like a joke, and if it is, it’s funny, but part of me is wondering if you’re serious.
Yeahhhh... a.. joke
Too real
The page isn't loaded
the pic loaded😂😂😂
Seriously though, if that wasn’t a joke then it really bakes my noodle.
Almost never. We teach women to do everything like men except date. As soon as you bring up sex and romance women want to be spoiled, pampered, courted, treated, and swept off their feet. It's one of the many, many, many failings of feminism and women's "empowerment". It's 100% hypocritical.
The one time I made a move the SOB had a girlfriend, this was in high school and they are still married after 20 years
Welcome to every man's life. Approaching people not knowing if they are single or not.
Unless he's a hottie virtually never. As they get older though and their looks start failing them, they start putting on some weight, body parts start sagging, offers start drying up. Then they either get bitter or they start going on the offensive and start asking guys out. And now the shoe is on the other foot. Now it's the guys turn to reject them repeatedly. Oh believe me i feel bad doing it. But if you just don't feel that way about them you just don't feel that way. 😊
True, to be honest that's how I got to know the second wife. It as at a friend's funeral. I was sat down have a coffee and bun when she came over and introduced herself. We started chatting and that was me hooked...
It doesn’t usually happen unless you made her really feel guilty for flaking on you in the past, or you’re already in a relationship, and she wants to have a guy she can’t have.
I did and I was so nervous the first time but I wouldn't ever change it
I don’t usually but the boy I’m with I’m extremely comfortable and tend to make the first move sometimes which he tends to like
I don't make the first move per se, BUT sometimes i innitiate contact in one way or another or open myself up to him feeling like it is ok for him to approach me in that way.
How so? Because if it's 'subtle' chances are we won't pick up on it lol
They usually do. Eye contact, smiling, a quick remark and then leaving him again to leave the ball in his court
It happen to me once but I was with my "friend with benefits" I guess you could call her although I was totally in love. I wanted to give the girl my number but I felt wrong because I didn't want the other one to feel bad.
It’s not every man’s dream. Statistically men prefer to be the ones to make the first move.
Unless you want a dominant woman.
What? I'm as dominant as you want but it doesn't help me any. :( :(
"Statistically men prefer to be the ones to make the first move"
Take a poll and I think you'll find that's not the case.
can't speak for every guy
The exceptions are those who prefer to make the first move.
Probably 50/50.
"You think most men want a dominant woman? "
That's a different question.
I'm addressing the original framing of the question: Men *do not* have a problem with women making the first move. The vast majority of guys would appreciate it.
Asking someone out is not being dominant nor is being asked out submissive
It’s just Being wiling you communicate clearly... most sane people appreciate that quality in a partner
And yes in polls men come Out Being OK with or preferring women to be clear in making interest known as is done by asking a person out.
It’s Just healthy line of communication.. I don’t see why it needs to be made complicated... just be clear. That’s never a bad thing. 🤷♀️😊
"Asking someone out is absolutely a dominant persons role."
That's only *your* feeling about it.
If everyone else doesn't feel that is the case then -- and they don't -- then it should be understandable that most guys just feel the pressure of making the first move and would appreciate women doing it.
Conflating that as "the dominant role", deciding on their behalf what they want and that it reflects on the entirety of their desires as them wanting a dominant woman is inappropriate.
I definitely don’t feel like my asking a guy Out nor a guy asking me out is a dominant person role.,
I’m just relieved someone did something and we get to see if there is mutual interest
I don’t think much Thought Should be Put Into Getting the ball rolling. Just get started and see where it goes
I’m sure some guys see it as a test to whether they see dominant and that may help to e plain why they will reject a womsn even in the case where they like her... they may see it as a test and if they say yes she will see them as weak. Or That by her asking she is not acknowledging their dominance... I’m sure there is some of that.
Thing is in a mutually joined relationship in a democratic society no one is really dominating anyone it’s all an illusion. No matter how anyone Feels, it’s all mutual.
To me you either like a person or you don’t. I think I you potentially miss out on a lot by worrying who starts it off. Obviously not everyone feels this way.. But some do and there simply is not one way of looking at it.
in my opinion you have one life. This all seems like a waste of time. But then I’m sure I do things other people would find silly.
I do think Feeling free to communicate without worrying if you are in the wrong lane is likely Beneficial across the board
@AllThatSweetJazz
It is it happens. I am not saying it happens majority of time, but it absolutely does happen. I’ve seen it and I have heard guys rationalize Doing just that as well.
Point is , Women are more wrong to Think some guys will react this way. But my point is why accommodate those guys at all and use that as an excuse to not be direct with the rest who would welcome it.
"statistical data that says men prefer to ask out more than women do"
That's not the same question. You're changing the framing.
If 1% of women prefer it and 2% of men prefer it then it's technically true that more men prefer it than women, but that doesn't mean that the *majority* of men prefer it, because 98% would still prefer a woman to do it.
"Testosterone makes men pursue, not women."
It's not some magic word that says men are going to do all these things. You're way oversimplifying it and it still has the same problems as with you statistical statement.
To put it very plainly:
-Men who prefer to make the first move are the exception.
-Most would appreciate a girl to make the first move.
I'm familiar with that graphic, I've tried looking for a source for it hoping I would find a properly published study but there's nothing. I can't find it in any of my university databases.
I've also tried looking for similar statistics but can't find any. It's the only thing out there that says that and you can literally poll guys right now and find out what they think -- you'll find they don't agree with you. So I do not accept that article as sufficient evidence.
Even if it was true that they are sub-par, what does that have to do with the result?
The question is about what guys prefer and there is a sampling of guys right here.
I think you'll get the same result from actually asking guys as well. If you have some arbitrary problem with guys on gag then go ask around elsewhere, you'll get the same answer.
There are some good guys here too, but there are far too many incels and mgtow here as well, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d rather be asked out by a woman, seeing as how they’d love to push more responsibility on to the woman against her preference, as is evident by much of their content here.
But these men aren’t in the market (largely by choice) anyway so what value would their vote hold anyway?
"push more responsibility on to the woman against her preference"
But it goes both ways, you're pushing responsibility on men. The only difference is that you seem to be fine when it's going in the direction you want.
"these men aren’t in the market (largely by choice) anyway so what value would their vote hold anyway"
Firstly, that doesn't mean their preference doesn't persist. It's about having a sample, specifically avoiding samples that you believe won't give you the results you want is not appropriate.
Second, I don't think they aren't in the market anyway. If it's by choice then you can simply ask them that too. It sounds like you're making up justifications to avoid their answer because none of what you've said excludes them from the data, even if were true.
But whatever, ask a proper sampling of guys in the general populace and you'll get the same answer.
I don't know any guys who say they prefer it and most guys I know are from university, just like the sampling in the article you're trying to use. But by all means ask a proper sampling of guys and find out for yourself.
The twitter poll had interesting results. Can you separate the men from the women though?
The poll in the other question was similar to what I expected, though I think your framing skews the results, it's in the realm of what's expected.
The answers in the other question also reflect what I'd expect, which answers a separate question: Does it even matter? And the answer is no. Even if 100% of guys preferred to ask a girl out, that still in no way damages a woman's chances with a guy to be reason for her not to make the first move. So there's that.
I've been trying to find studies in databases that can have more data, but I'm not coming up with anything that speaks to our question. Though I found things like this YouTube video. This is generally what I expect to hear from a guy when asked. It's consistent with what I hear from guys when asked and it's consistent with the other question. The discrepancy is with the twitter poll and the graphic from that old article. The next step for those things would be to ask the guys who answered that what why they answered that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fVsv_CmIn8
Woops, wrong video. Still, that's also what I expect from women's experiences, so it's relevant.
Here's the guys' one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCojIDHgnjY
If a girl really wants to ask a guy out or make the first moves, sure she can. But I would encourage her to keep a close eye on how he shows his effort and interest in her otherwise thereafter.
A lot of guys who responded to the poll here signal low interest and low self esteem.
Then there are the ones who said they were afraid of being labeled a creep which shows a lot of low trust in women and of himself and that’s a red flag.
There are plenty ways of showing your interest without looking like a creep. So I’m not sure if that’s a piss poor excuse or if they’ve just been coming on to a woman inappropriately in the past and labeled as creepy. I don’t know.
Hell my man is pretty introverted (I am too) but he still pursued me because his interest was that fucking high, he told his friends that HE was on a mission to have me in his life and that was very attractive to me, initially along with other attractive factors about him. Then I reciprocated the effort later on.
In my own past experience, I used to ask guys out in my early 20s, and that set the tone for the relationship. I ended to carrying them through the whole thing and I didn’t like that.
I’ve had several guys admit to me that while it’s flattering to have a girl ask them out, it takes something away. Some guys are aware of what that thing is and some aren’t. It’s that testosterone that makes a man want to pursue.
That’s why I encourage women to not just listen to what a guy says but watch what they do. What men say they want and what they respond to are often two different things.
If her asking him out works for you then more power to you.
I respect the guys answers who mentioned equality and meeting half way.
"signal low interest and low self-esteem."
I don't know what that even means, but assuming that's true -- whatever it means, so?
That's not an argument for anything.
"shows a lot of low trust in women and of himself and that’s a red flag."
Still not an argument for anything, even if that was true.
You also neglect the possibility that there's actually reasons not to be blindly trusting of women.
"There are plenty ways of showing your interest without looking like a creep."
According to you. The issue is that control of a woman's perception of you is extremely difficult. And from your perspective, you're only seeing the end result. Just because you saw something and called it creepy doesn't mean that that's the whole story.
"he told his friends that HE was on a mission to have me in his life and that was very attractive to me"
Yes, that's what *you* like, weird how that's the narrative you're pushing for everyone else. You shouldn't give people advice when you can't see outside your own narrative.
"I ended to carrying them through the whole thing and I didn’t like that."
Again, you're telling us about *you*. Who cares what *you* like? Only you and the people in your life. Other people work differently, and you shouldn't be trying to put them in boxes.
"I’ve had several guys admit to me that while it’s flattering to have a girl ask them out, it takes something away."
1. Cool, a *handful* of guys.
2. Within that statement is also the admission that it adds something too.
3. You're missing the point of the encounter. Even *if* it did "take away" something for *some* guys, the point is to get humans involved with each other; establishing relationships and forming connections. Guys and girls alike should be trying to grab onto something good that's in front of them rather than waiting around for something perfect. No one person's perfect story is going to fit two people.
"Some guys are aware of what that thing is and some aren’t."
Some guys don't even experience what you're talking about.
"It’s that testosterone that makes a man want to pursue."
No. Testosterone mostly relates to confidence and triumph. It doesn't "make them want" to pursue, it provides greater confidence to do so. But that still has nothing to do with why women shouldn't make a first move. Furthermore, testosterone doses come most powerfully *after* good things happen (triumph) -- incidentally this is why people saying 'testosterone causes violence' is a little bit bullshit too, but I digress -- so we find that a woman initiating provides that testosterone boost as well.
In short, your thoughts on testosterone are faulty.
"What men say they want and what they respond to are often two different things."
Okay, the same is true for women, and it's still not valid reasoning as to why a woman shouldn't make a first move.
"If her asking him out works for you then more power to you."
I agree that people should do what works for them. What I take issue with is your framing of it. You've got a narrowed view of what all this means and are giving advice to people that doesn't accurately represent them -- which I think creates its own problems. Basically, I'm saying it's often going to be bad advice.
As I stated before, men and women can do whatever they want. I just give my opinion based on my own observations and experiences, and I can give whatever advice I want, even if based on my own experience, which many people do actually care about. I’m one of the very few people of gag with a marriage lasting longer than 10 years. If you don’t find value in my advice, feel free to ignore it, but I make it my business to provide value and insight to those who want it.
Okay, but just so we're clear, none of that is a defense of your original position. It's just "agree to disagree", in which case, whatever. I think I've made an effective argument for anyone else who reads this.
The last thing I would add is that being married for 10 years seems more like it would speak to your authority on marriage, not on the early stages; navigating the modern social landscape, meeting people, making new connections. I think that stuff is a different kettle of fish.
A guy just recently commented on that thread about age. He says:
“I suspect that if you asked this question again and separated it by age, you would find younger males want the girls to ask and older males want to do the asking. These younger guys haven;t learned to be assertive with women because they text everything instead of dealing with women in person. Cowards way out!”
It does seem to appear that this is generally the case.
Age could be another factor, yes. I would also expect differences depending on nationality/culture. However, that still doesn't mean anything in relation to how people should act.
And then furthermore, I don't respect the "cowards" remark, I always find people who call others cowards to be pathetic themselves, there's no need to be dragging others down like that -- mostly it just seems masturbatory.
So I agree that there are probably many lines you can divide the demographics into, but I don't agree with the sentiment nor that it has significance.
Doesn't need to be their dream. That's irrelevant -- whether its many or some.
I think it's generally their preference to be asked (and that its not a commentary on power dynamics), but even that's irrelevant.
It's simply not an important detail when it comes to what people should be doing to get the ball rolling on romance.
But when you say "important" there you're referencing subjective value a person holds for something right? That's what I've been pointing out that you've been using. But what I'm talking about when I say "relevance" or "importance" is practicality. I'm making an assertion that -- regardless of what you personally hold to be important -- that it's not important practically; that is to say it's not what you *should be doing* to get positive results -- which is usually the function of advice.
You could alter your behaviour based on a ton of subjective criteria, but I think there remains a philosophical argument to say that a particular set of criteria is unrealistic/unreasonable and that there is a practical way to go about this that at least approaches "true" beyond what is subjective.
But insofar as the subjective aspects are relevant, I've been saying the whole time that there's a lot of different ways to see things and even if you can't imagine another way it could be seen, you should just assume there's a perspective out there you haven't heard yet. So to bring it back to the start, framing these things as "dominant" and all that stuff is to assign a highly personal perspective to a population that largely doesn't share that perspective and encourages people to think in ways and make decisions based on subjective criteria that doesn't really apply to them -- if it were even relevant.
I do all the time but does it help me? Nooooooooooooooooooo!! I guess I'm too fucking ugly!
You ain't ugly. You look like 2003 Avril Lavine. In a good way
Thanks even if it is a lie. :)
I love your hair
Avril Lavigne?
@VIVANT Thanks, but I always look mad. ha ha
I dont make the first move when it comes to guys but I'll always help him out a little my smiling, making frequent eye contact or try to flirt/compliment him.
According to a survey in my country - 25% times the girl makes the first move and 75% of times the guy does
And I got no stories to share mate
I’m not sure it’s ever been clear cut. Every date I remember we just started talking and touchy/flirty shit happens and then someone asks if they’d like to grab a drink or dinner.
For very good-looking guys it is not unusual to be approached by women. But we're talking the 1 percenters here.
I've only been directly approached a couple times. And not for a long time, sadly.
I've never made the first move, but if I really feel like I'll hit it off, I definitely will.
either a. ones who do not think things through or b. ones who are not at all intimatdated by the guy
I guess most of them always wait for the guy to do it first. But when it looks like he's taking too much time they might go for it.
I'd be thrilled to have a girl make the first move or even have a friend of hers tell me she likes me.
But good luck with that, once in a blue moon to get acknowledgement, once in more than an eternity to be asked out
I can probably count on one hand how many times it's happened
They usually make the first move. Not by asking but by smiling, saying hi, or otherwise indicating that they are probably receptive to being approached by you.
I try to make my intentions clear from the get go. If I am not being direct enough, I'll make the first move.
Not very often and it is very subtle. But when it does happen, i think it is quite a big thing her to do
I’ve asked for a few guys numbers before, but I never ask a guy on a date. I don’t believe in chasing people.
@VIVANT Oh, I just believe you shouldn’t do all of the chasing after someone. I don’t feel comfortable asking for a guys number. Then asking him on a date. Later, I initiate the second date, etc. I believe that NO ONE should be forced to heavily pursue the right person. I personally have never been on a date because of my commitment issues. That is the only reason I’ve never asked.
Well, if you have commitment issues then that means they're probably going to have to chase you. Until they get tired and give up.
Only if I have to prove that I'm not a chicken to a friend.
ve donr it once. I was a lot ballsier back then lol
Never. It feels too needy on my end to go out and ask a guy out.
Do guys genuinely find it attractive? I don’t believe that one bit
We do, or at least I do. a lot of the time guys won't approach girls because we assume they just want to be left alone. But if a girl approaches you it takes all the guess work out of it, you know for a fact that she wants to talk to you
It's not that you find it attractive it's that you find it easy. The thrill of the chase is worth it.
No it's attractive. It's a woman who is self aware and mature enough to know what she wants and doesn't have to wait to be approached.
It feels to needy? Have fun letting potentially great relationships slip by cause you are so against trying to make it happen.
I personally do find it attractive and I wouldn't think a woman is needy for making the first move.
Take it from the multitude of guys tell you otherwise; guys don’t think a girl is easy for initiating (easy is actually about history), it’s something clearly girls are always thinking about and projecting onto situations like this.
90% of guys prefer it. 90% of the rest are fine either way and 90% of what’s left after that are still fine with it despite it not being their preference. There’s no real intellectual reason why women don’t do it. They just plain don’t like and avoid it because they can afford to.
@AllThatSweetJazz
"guys don’t think a girl is easy for initiating (easy is actually about history)"
That is such a perfect way to describe how I feel about it.
Girls tend up doing the exact opposite of what I and probably many other guys like. They fuck guys for one night stands and then want to wait awhile because they don't want the guy they are serious about to think they are easy. The one night stands things were the bad thing, not sex with the serious guy too soon. But I guess they are ultimately trying to just appear not easy.
@cavmanier "The one night stands things were the bad thing, not sex with the serious guy too soon."
Agreed.
I feel like I see this all the time and in all sorts of ways with women; it seems like it's them caving to some worry or concern and rationalizing it as was guys think. And then I can get treated like the asshole for pointing out that the thing they think is a problem isn't a problem and if they stopped worrying they'd realize there's nothing to worry about. Weird.
@AllThatSweetJazz
I feel like they're more concerned about appearing as the presentation of what we want instead of actually being what we want. The problem with them actually being the way is they would have to rarely want a guy. Many want to have their fun though too.
@MandaPanda2000 "Thrill of the chase"? No, it is usually not worth it. And chasing is a silly game and not productive for anyone. Just meet someone and talk and find out if you click. If so, great. If not, that's fine, too. It's really that simple. Don't make it harder than it has to be.
I would phrase “the presentation” as “their interpretation” but yeah.
@AllThatSweetJazz no because presentation means they care about the appearance and not the substance of reality. Interpretation is not related.
@cavmanier Interpretation, includes appearance. Don't what definition you're using.
It is actually very common where I live and i did not know it thst men are the one who always do it. But would that be ok for conservative men?
Where do you live? I think you'll notice a very big increase in manly population shortly, after given answer.
^lol
And yes, @kim45456; it is totally okay. (But maybe I'm not that conservative; I don't know.)
I think it's harder for us to make the first move. I mean its not a natural thing for a girl
How is it harder? Guys making a move is infinitely more likely to get rejected than a girl. If a girl makes a move and get rejected, it'll be because the guy is taken.
Only did it 2x in person when I was in HS. Online a few times and wasn’t worth it
@chris_987 I have the luck of a guy when it comes to dating. It never works out for me
@chris_987 perseverance
@AllThatSweetJazz
Lol 😂🤷♀️😊
I rarely make the first move. Just like guys approaching me is rare.
Only in my dreams they do.
And I don't dream.
😐
If they're a slut, pretty frequently. If they're not, it's pretty rare.
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