In dating, men work harder because they lack leverage, not because there's a double standard - Thoughts?

[Janson]

I'd like to see people's general thoughts on this

I was perusing through YouTube today and I stumbled on something interesting. So there are 3 links I'm going to post below. Basically in one video, you have a fairly attractive guy who shamelessly goes up to a bunch of different women and straight up asks if they want to have sex with him. Couldn't get one girl to say yes (you could tell one or two girls were kinda thinking about it, but they still said no). This person isn't some dirty-looking, ungroomed homeless guy mind you. In the 2nd + 3rd video, a fairly attractive girl goes up to a bunch of men randomly and asks if they want to have sex with her. Success rate is a lot better. The guys are generally way more open to random stranger banging.

Guy asking random girls (He's given 100 chances to get at least one definite yes)

link

Same girl in both videos asking random guys

link

link

The guy was given a lot of chances to at least get a couple yes's. I don't really count the times when they approached couples because social pressure prevents people from acting on impulse, but even when you take those away, the results are still pretty clear. Let's not to beat around the bush here. Both genders want sex. But I think guys want it more badly. If I were a gambling man, that is the all or nothing bet I'd take.

What this kind of tells me is something that I already knew, but some people here sometimes miss. If I have something you want, but you have nothing I want, there is only one important word for that: Leverage. It's not that girls don't want sex (they do). But they can live without it for a lot longer than guys can for one reason or another. They don't approach much because men often don't have anything that they really want, so why would they go out of their way? Sex for women just isn't as important as other things are, and in today's day and age where women can work for their own money, they don't really "need" anyone anymore.

So my rationale is that women aren't really promoting an equality double standard here. To me it's like a black store owner calling a white guy racist for bypassing his store and going to shop in the one next door. "It's not racist" the white guy replies "You just don't have anything I'm interested in buying." Same sort of thing in dating. Girls will do a little more if there is a guy they are into, but that is usually with guys they actually have known for some time. Generally though, the everyday random guy they meet at the library, or park bench has nothing they really want, so why approach? It's not sexist. They just don't want you. Guys though tend to be a lot more open to hooking up with randoms, because we simply have something we want more than girls usually do

Updates

+1 y

Just to clarify, when I say guys don't have anything they really want, what I mean is that girls don't tend to see random guys and see something they really want right there and then. Since sex is more of an emotional thing for girls, they often don't look at a random guy and really want him immediately. Guys tend not to treat sex as such an emotional thing (some do obviously), but when a guy sees an attractive girl, he's a lot more open to starting something from nothing, even if its just for sex

[Daph81]

lol I've been wanting to post this video here back when the mysoginistic questions were raging... Just couldn't think of a question.

I think it goes to our animalistic instincts. In most species, males are always the one trying to impress the females. That's why male mallards are pretty and colorful, while the females are brown and ugly. And peacocks. And booby birds. Also the dancing ritual, even male jumping spiders have to "dance" in front of a female before mating. Also the fighting with other males, like with horses and crickets...

My theory (and the theory of my zoology professor) is, that instinctively, females are more picky because a female human being is born with a couple hundred eggs only. Whereas a male can produce sperm until he drops dead. And in one ejaculation, there are, like, a LOT of sperm cells (I forgot how many). So instinctively, a male would want to spread his genes as much as possible, and a female wouldn't want to waste her precious limited eggs with bad genes.

I know humans are way more evolved than horses or peacocks or spiders, and I know that the "spreading his genes as much as possible" is not true anymore for most guys. But I still think that we also still have some animalistic instincts that unconsciously controls our behaviors. Like how guys like girls with wide hips (fertility, easy birth...)

[Janson]

i think at the basic instinctual level, you're right

[Izzy2102]

That was a funny video, I loved the part where asked "do you want to have sex with me" and the guy answered. And the guys who was on the phone with his mom

But ya I agree it's not really a double standart it's just that different genders want different things. It's not that men have nothing to offer though, it's what men have to offer is not sex, what many want is sex though.

Most girls won't consider sex before they are in a relationship. Partly maybe because they don't feel the urge to, but the bigger point here is that sex for girls, contrary to men is an emotional thing. It's rare that girls have sex for just plain physical satisfaction. Women are naturally more selective in their sexual partners, because for them it always result in pregnancy, while he would be gone before she even knows she's pregnant

[pr3ttybr0wn]

I have no desire to have sex with some random guy who comes up to me asking for it. For what? Not interested. I don't know you

[Janson]

okay that's not quite what the question was about lol, but thanks for the input

[Alonso14]

This is pretty much correct.

Men's high sex drives cause them to regularly pursue women. They are also judged (mostly by other men) for the quantity/quality of women they sleep with, this causes them to pursue women even more. Women, on average, have lower sex drives causing them to approach less, furthermore the amount of guys approaching them often means they do not need to approach at all. On top of this society doesn't deem a female who isn't having sex/in a relationship as a loser, so if she is happy single she doesn't feel any social pressure to look for a man.

This is also why almost any women can get sex or a relationship with ease while about 80% of men really struggle, either never having sex/relationships or only very occasionally getting a girlfriend. The more liberal attitudes towards sex and relationships become the greater this gap between attractive men and unattractive men will become. Eventually huge amounts of males will be completely cut off from sex and relationships, they won't be very pleased with this, its probably why marriage was invented in the first place.

The bitter virgins on here are just the beginning, soon they will be coming to a town near you.

[evenlift]

Well, that doesn't make sense. If guys had nothing of interest, girls would never agree to sex, unless you're saying girls are irrational, haha!

And many girls do complain that they're not approached at all or not approached by the right guys, whereas if a fairly confident guy isn't approaching girls much, you can assume he's not desperate for sex.

I think there is a double standard in many senses. Girls often portray themselves as prizes to be won by guys who put in the effort and have the skills, but then they complain about being 'objectified'. Or they portray sex as a prize/gift, and then get upset when guys to pay no attention to their (the girls') sexual needs. Some female Anon made this point in answer to another question: you can't have both leverage and equality. Personally I think it's much healthier for girls and guys to consider sex, dating, etc to be something that they should both enjoy, rather than a prize to be won by the guy.

[Janson]

"Well, that doesn't make sense. If guys had nothing of interest, girls would never agree to sex, unless you're saying girls are irrational, haha!" Yeah I was more referring to random guys, not guys they've actually known for a while

[evenlift]

I think the important issue is, who is more emotionally invested? Sometimes on here, I do see girls ask questions like, "A random guy approached me today and said this. What did he mean? Was he asking me out?" If you're having fun, like the guy in the video, it's not work.

[MikeK]

Exactly... you can't have your cake and eat it too...

Women want the upper hand? Fine, let 'em have it... just make sure they omit the word "equal" from their vocabulary ;)

[penguindeux]

the whole of viewing women as a prize is a cultural thing, not a women thing and men enforce the double standard much more, guys like MikeK spend half their time on this site complaining about women being too slutty, too easy, too trashy, how chicks who've slept around are just filth and have no self respect...then they come on threads like this and complain that women don't approach them enough,

[evenlift]

No, it really is a women thing. Women like being chased. Women don't in general approach men. Some say they're too scared, but others say it's a man's job. When women say things like "Be confident", they're really saying, "I'm a prize, and you need to perform well to get me". It's more like a job interview than, say, meeting a new friend. Even a really good guy, if he's made to jump through hoops, is going to view sex in a one-sided way.

[evenlift]

When you go to a job interview, do you see the interviewer as a real person, or do you objectify him/her in your mind and think of ways to manipulate him/her (I don't mean that in a sinister way) to get what you want?

[evenlift]

And I don't know why I'm being down-voted. I'm simply repeating what a female Anon said the other day. I guess some things are socially unacceptable for a guy to say.

[MikeK]

You, Penquin, are full of crap... You really don't read any of my comments too closely do you? If you did, you'd see that's NOT what I'm complaining about.

I don't accuse women of being slutty - they can do whatever they want. But if they pretend to be virtuous and yet they're banging half the guys in town, that's quite hypocritical...

With regards to this particular question, evenlift got it right - Men have to prove themselves to women. Women do NOT have to prove themselves to men ;)

[Vandal]

"Girls often portray themselves as prizes to be won by guys who put in the effort and have the skills, but then they complain about being 'objectified'." Great answer, especially that part.

Here's two vids that kinda relate to this that I found interesting

"Female Rape Fantasy Is Not What It Seems" - link

"the tyranny of female hypoagency" - link (fairly long)

[cheesesteak7]

In the words of Aja Dang, "women go cuckoo for cocoa puffs after having sex with a man for the first time."

I agree with OP, specifically the Updated part. Women want sex. They arguably enjoy it more if they can orgasm/ejaculate. But there's more to it for them than just physical gratification. Sure there may be a girl who says "yes" to a stranger soliciting sex, but they're few and far between and probably aren't the most mentally or emotionally stable.

As for the whole equality aspect, I'm not sure how to reply. I believe that men and women will never TRULY and GENUINELY be seen as equals (not just in the game of attraction) in most, if not all, cultures. They're just too different. Legally they may be treated equally, but on a social or cultural aspect, I doubt it'll ever happen anywhere.

[Hamburgers]

You're absolutely right.

Also, for men who DO have leverage, women complain that:

1) They sleep with a lot of women

2) Aren't exclusive to them

3) Are "heart-breakers"

4) Have sex with them and not talk again

Why does she complain? In that case, men have something they want, but the woman doesn't have what he wants for him to take her exclusively.

We men view it as a double-standard, because ON AVERAGE women get anything between exclusive relationships to casual f***-buddys within in a week if she DECIDED to. It may not be her prince in shining armor, but she can get one.

How many guys would be happy with such a success rate?

Sure, men are to blame. We want the vagina and will take lower quality women to get it.

Girls know the stock of the vagina high and the stock of **** is low. So men need other sh*t to make up for that low value currency.

[rabbit3891]

I think that's not entirely true. I watched those videos before and what came to my mind was that, men aren't worried that people will find out a stranger walked up, asked them for sex, and he gave it to them. Women however aren't going to just say yes let's go have sex because it makes them look bad, they don't even know that the guy is serious, and he may call her a slut if she says yes. If they did the study in a more realistic way like say go have a 5 minute conversation with someone, and then ask if they'd like to come back to your place, I think the results would have been a lot different.

[shadowscapes]

Yes. People often forget that both genders are different. Women like sex just as much as men, but they are more selective about who they want to have sex with. Men will have sex with just anybody. Women are more discriminate. Men form attraction instantly whereas it takes time for women to do so. It's not a double standard if there is a fundamental difference.

[thatguy67]

In SEX, men work harder because they lack leverage. I think it has to do with the evolutionary things a female poster said earlier.

I think in DATING most things are equal if both participants are in the same league with each other. If the guy talked to those girls, had a good conversation and asked for a date he'd have a lot more success, obviously.

It's interesting how the video with the female approaching ended with a 50% ratio...I wonder if the "success rate" for all her trials was lower. Also, I feel like this video is almost like a mental simulation of what a woman thinks when some random guy approaches her on the street/on the beach lol

[HateBeingSingleAspie]

which is why I truly believe women do the choosing, not men, here it is, even Neil Strauss said this quote, "

“If there was anything I'd learned, it's that the man never chooses the woman. All he can do is give her an opportunity to choose him.”

look at these videos and prove that women do the choosing, not men:

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=i4XPOe6w6bohttps://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=92SUg-ow2iMhttps://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=fgbgqDUD_VEhttps://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=oTYbtgh6fwo

[MikeK]

Fun videos, but nothing new nonetheless...

I can't believe that girl threw the drink in the guy's face when he asked her - he could have her charged with assault... I'm sorry if you were offended by my question Miss Pris, but you cannot attack someone just because they asked you a question (no matter how vulgar it is)...

lol and I LOVED the girl in the 2nd video who told the skank to "F*** off"... it's nice to see a woman protective of her man :)

[penguindeux]

if someone came up to you and said "hey baldy, can I shine your head?" how would you have reacted?...it's just a question afterall

[MikeK]

Believe it or not, I've had chicks do this to me...

But was I anything less than pleasant when they did it? NO! Not at all...

In fact, one time this girl came right up to me in a club and without even saying a word, she started rubbing my head for like 20 seconds... she was making such a scene that my friend came over to me and he asked "Do you know her?"... I did not know her.

But did I blow a gasket? Did I take offense? NO... NO... NO!

[MikeK]

Every time a girl asks me that, I'll say (depending on my mood) either "Sure, go ahead" or "Please do not"... NO MAN EVER would tell a girl to "f*** off" or throw a drink in her face... that's the point here ;)

[johnny_hustle]

I agree. It's not against the law to go up to someone and ask them if they would like to have sex. It's only illegal when the sex is traded for something in return, usually money. Throwing a drink into someones face can cause a person to be charged with both assault and battery.

[MikeK]

That's my point exactly...

Even in the year 2013, with all of the "equal" rights that exist, women can still do sh*t like this and get away with it scot-free...

Imagine if it was the other way around - if the girl asking for sex in the vid had a drink thrown in her face by the guy she asked... he would be tackled in SECONDS, and yet the woman receives applause... WHAT THE F*** IS GOING ON HERE?

[xzinax2]

that's true to an extent,but,a lot of the girls would've accepted if there wasn't for the whole ''okay,he's going to tell everyone and I might end up online/getting killed'' thing

[Alonso14]

Do you really believe that? Having approached hundreds of women in my life I know that even getting a date from a completely cold approach is almost impossible, let alone sex.

[xzinax2]

that may be true for you,but if you check out simplepickup and similar channels on YouTube-your argument is invalid.

[Alonso14]

Please don't try and use PUA's to prove this. An industry worth a lot of money can easily create some sh*tty advertisement. You don't know how many approaches it took, hell the girls could be paid actresses. Getting a girls number does not equal going on a date with her. In the last month I've done not much under 100 approaches, gotten 8 numbers and 0 of them have gone on dates with me. Most girls give out there numbers just to be nice rather than reject the guy.

[xzinax2]

actually they made out with quite a lot of girls-and I doubt they have the money to pay that many women. you're just projecting your own failure.

[Alonso14]

Don't have the money? You do realize PUA's charge hundreds or even thousands to train with them? You could probably get a girl to makeout on camera for almost nothing.

[Alonso14]

If you look at the Simple Pickup website they have about 15 bootcamps all sold out at 2k per person on each bootcamp. Its ridiculous how much money these guys must be making from this scam.

[xzinax2]

if you seriously think that those things don't work on some girls-you seriously don't know enough girls. again,your failure doesn't mean all men fail.

[Alonso14]

Its not just me though. The whole time I was involved in PUA I never met anyone who got consistent success that they could actually demonstrate in person.

[xzinax2]

that's not even the point-i gave that example because QA was using videos as an example-PUA or not,people do date,people do hookup randomly-they're called one night stands.

[Alonso14]

People don't have one night stands with strangers they meet on the street though.

Most people meet partners through mutual friends or mutual activities (work, school, clubs, ect).

[xzinax2]

you're missing the point-it's about sex. having casual sex. yeah,girls won't hook up with a guy on the street-because they're afraid of being called a slut or worse,but girls do hook up with random guys without knowing anything about them if it's socially normal-like in clubs

[Alonso14]

Nobody is going to call them a slut. Nobody is even going to know. They don't do it because they do not want to. They have far less interest in sex than men.

Clubs for the most part are a scam too, 95% of the guys leaving on any given night are leaving without a girl. Most of the ones with a girl went there with her. I don't know any men who consistently pull in clubs. It does happen once in a blue moon to good looking men though.

[xzinax2]

''Nobody is going to call them a slut. Nobody is even going to know.'' hardy-f***ing-har-har. you obviously have no idea what being a woman is like. a lot of women do have lower libidos than men-but they still get horny,why do you think so many vibrators are sold?

[Alonso14]

If one of those girls said yes to that guy, went home with him and f***ed him, how would there social group find out? None of my friends know when I have sex unless I tell them.

So that women can use them once a month to have an orgasm that they probably wouldn't have gotten by sleeping with some random dude. Women have very little interest in actually sleeping with most men.

[xzinax2]

again,you're ignorant. on both points.

every girl I know that slept with a guy-the whole town knows within a week.

and-seriously-you've never been a woman,stop guessing things based on girls not wanting to sleep with YOU

[Alonso14]

As I've shown before women don't want to sleep with most men, not just me. Or do guys go out to clubs just to dance with there friends? They probably get into PUA for that too LOL

A small minority of women are interested in casual sex on a rare occasion. Obviously though the vast majority of these women only end up sleeping with very good looking men and they never have to work for it as almost all men are open to casual sex. Which is bringing us back to the original question. Women are ...

[Alonso14]

... intrinsically better off in dating/sex. They have leverage haha.

[xzinax2]

believe what you want,but you're wrong and it's no wonder you fail with women when you have such poor knowledge of them

[Alonso14]

You keep bringing me up and ignoring that this isn't just me. Most men do not sleep with as many women as they would like. Otherwise industries like p*rn, prostitution and PUA wouldn't exist. Stop trying to shame me for not being a stud. I've gotten that all my life and it doesn't bother me anymore. If you think less of me for not pulling endless women then its you with the problem.

[xzinax2]

how am I shaming you if it's a fact that you brought up?

''Most men do not sleep with as many women as they would like''-not a valid argument,most men would sleep with a different woman every day. even several of them at the same time-does that seem possible? women do get horny,if we didn't,there would be no accidental babies/abortions. if we didn't like men,we'd all be gay.

[Alonso14]

You are attempting to shame me as you keep repeatedly saying that I am the problem. I am not. There is nothing abnormal about my results. Most men do not have regular sex with random strangers. In fact I doubt any male who isn't very famous manages that.

I never said that women do not like men at all. The whole point was its almost impossible to get anything from approaching random women because women have more options than their sex drives require from the men within their social group.

[xzinax2]

you are the problem.

you keep viewing only your side of the story. do you think women who look like rosie o'donnell have men fawning over them? so why do you assume that you should have women fawning over you? no one goes out and says ''i'm going to find someone who I don't find attractive even though all I want is sex which requires sexual arousal''. you think that the only women that exist are those who are young and fit your standards.

[Alonso14]

I've never said women should do anything. You are making this up. I would like to think I'm comparably better looking than Rosie O'Donnell though. Or should I be chasing middle aged fat women because I am slightly below average looking for a young slim male?

Explain if its me that is the problem why most guys leave clubs empty handed then go home and wank off to p*rnography? How do I cause most men to fail to pull? How do I cause most PUA's not to get results? How is this my fault?

[Alonso14]

Overall you have claimed that many of those women in the video wanted to go home with the guy without backing your claim up with anything. You are living in a delusional world if you think women don't get propositioned far more than men or if you think most men could pull a stranger with ease.

[xzinax2]

and again-you think that if a girl looks like rosie-she doesn't count in the equation. you're one of those guys who has high standards,even though he himself doesn't match what society deems ''attractive'',and then whines that models aren't sleeping with him.

[Alonso14]

I don't have high standards. See here link

Middle aged fat women have far more options than middle aged fat men. Similarly young slim women have far more options than young slim men. Stop comparing me with fat middle aged women. You are a f***ing retard.

[Alonso14]

Also well done for ignoring all my questions.

[xzinax2]

you can't say that somehow you're better-the same way fat is unattractive in women,men being really thin is unattractive to a large number of women. middle aged people in general have very few options,it's worse for women because female youth is valued more. you're the ''retard'' since you believe women have no libido and that the only women that count in that equation are those you deem acceptable. what question? are you more attractive? different standards. wanking? wrong approach,wrong women.

[xzinax2]

since you blocked me like a little bitch.

again,different standards. why do you think rosie is somehow unworthy? a woman with good teeth,good hair,nice facial features,successful. because she's fat and older than you. well,like you already said,you're really thin and you don't like your face. some men like bigger,older women,some women like thinner men. so why do you think you're somehow better?

[Vandal]

I think you make alonso14 quit the site

[Vandal]

made*

[xzinax2]

bwahhahaha

he took it the wrong way,he thought I called him ugly so he started panicking. oh,well,one dude less to insult an entire gender for his lack of sex.

[Vandal]

*sighs* I'll have to start doing overtime 'till there's a replacement

[Hamburgers]

***Very important fact***

The woman knows her vagina IS her leverage.

The man knows after he gets it, she NO LONGER has leverage.

And Women know this too.

It's exactly why women HAVE to be selective with the men she sleeps with.

Because once she gives it up it's the man who has all the leverage and decides where things go.

[MortalShowdown]

This is why most guys do not start to pick up chicks until they stop caring and let it go.

[coffeprince]

Hahaha mom can I call you back? That guy was cuuuutee.

[Vandal]

I think they're just more selective because sex carries greater risk for them.

[bassman]

Guys do the picking and girls do the choosing.