Why is it the less you know, the more you think you know?

[msc545]

The Dunning-Kruger effect effect occurs when a person's lack of knowledge and skills in a certain area cause them to overestimate their own competence. By contrast, this effect also causes those who excel in a given area to think the task is simple for everyone, and underestimate their relative abilities as well.

I have encountered the first situation in arguing with people on GAG who insist that Biden has "dementia", even though those people have no knowledge of the signs and symptoms of dementia (hint: they are not visually observable and don't involve speech deficits) and no education in neurology or neuroscience, areas in which I have specialized knowledge and education.

Yet they insist. Is this all political or something else - and if it is something else - what is it?

[richardcory]

Most things are far more complex than they seem at first. A quick read, maybe a one-page wikipedia article, can give someone the impression that they understand something. But there are still lots of unknown unknowns. Once someone learns more, some of the unknown unknowns become known unknowns - eg they start to realize just how little they know.

Its always good to try to simplify thigns for teaching, but people have to realize that while the simplification is good - it can't include everything.

[msc545]

good points thanks!

[goaded]

Some people call that "Lies to children". It's an essential part of education and not harmful, as long as the person doing the "lying" knows that they're not presenting the whole picture. It should be noted, they're not really referring to "children" as such, but the capabilities of the human brain and that we're always simplifying things in order to get a handle on them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children

[msc545]

I've never heard that before but it's a very good point. Thank you!

[richardcory]

@goaded There are also very valuable approximations. I remember ages ago my father was unhappy that scientists were always making approximations. Much later I learned that a large part of science IS approximating - its knowing what effects matter and what don't for each individual situation.

[goaded]

You could call all of chemistry an approximation; that doesn't change the fact that it's an extremely useful one! Quantum physics adds a new layer, but hydrogen and oxygen still make water when combined. It's approximations all the way down.

[msc545]

@goaded Assuming that nearly everything is probabilistic, an approximation is about as good as it gets and may be enough in most cases.

[msc545]

The Heisenberg uncertainty principle tells us that any statements regarding anything comprised of atoms are by necessity probabilistic in nature even if not stated that way.

[exitseven]

Probably because the more you know , the more aware of all the things that you don't know

[msc545]

I am not sure you understand the result here - the less people know, the MORE they think they know according to the Dunning-Kruger effect. Empirically I have found that to be true.

[exitseven]

Yes, I get it. I have found in my own personal experience that the more I know about a certain subject the more I find out about things I never knew existed which opens a. up a bunch of cans of worms.

[msc545]

I can see that but I have always thought of that part as "more to learn" - a different way to think of that can of worms!

[exitseven]

Thanks for the MHO

[LiamJHayden]

You are onto something. I see people making dogmatic claims about one subject or another in areas where I am well-acquainted (admittedly limited areas). Those claims are often at odds with reality, yet when corrected with clear proof the people often get crazily abusive.

I am also likely guilty in some cases of thinking I know more than I do. Here's hoping that I can be gracious when corrected by someone more knowledgeable.

[msc545]

Thank you very much. That is the essence of the problem that I had. It's really frustrating when people was just a little bit of knowledge. Start contradicting me when this is thinking

something I've studied for most of my life

[goaded]

Of course it's political, or what passes for political in these days of no policies and nothing but attacks from the right.

Here's something someone who's actually spent time with Biden said:
"Asked about Biden, McCarthy said: "I thought his team was very professional, very smart, very tough, at the same time, so..." The fact that McCarthy said "team" threw reporters off. They asked again, specifically about Biden. "What I was referring to was the president. I was talking about President Biden, yes." "

https://youtu.be/95JSSPuIVoA

[Emelina]

Just to be a smarty pants, and also to show off. As stupid as it sounds, sometimes some humans tend to express bullcrap just so they feel important and full of power. I think anyways.

[msc545]

I think that only holds until people figure out the person knows nothing.

[Emelina]

Yes, I agree bc the more questions you ask of them the more confusing answers I get from someone who doesn't know nothing.

[msc545]

exactly.

[clampfan101]

Reminds me of kids insisting they know everything. lol

[Astarlessnightsky]

Because you don't understand the topic enough to know what you don't know.