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77Opinion
A few things.. the top 2 would be:
1. Men don't want to marry women they can't trust. Too many whorish women today.
2. Women want to marry up. The more money women earn and/or the less men make, the harder it is for that to happen.
2b. The flip side is that most men have no interest in marrying up.
yeah I've honestly never cared about a woman's income level tbh. It doesn't say anything about the character of the person imho.
I'm going to say the quicker and easier access to sex and fast paced lifestyle. Sex and money seem to be what a lot of people are interested in. It's getting harder to find serious commitment. Normalizing hook ups and a lot of these dating apps aren't helping the situation.
a) people are generally marrying at much older ages nowadays. Studies have found that people who marry in their late teens/early 20s are much more likely to end in divorce.
b) people are generally marrying less. Less marriage = less divorces.
Before anyone comes for my throat I'm not saying all young marriages are bad. I know people that are married in their early 20s who are quite happy together. Some people are ready young and have the maturity for it. A lot of people however are not mature enough yet and their marriages are unstable and don't last.
Nope, no throat cutting here. That's exactly what I posted in my update. People are waiting, not refusing to get married in general. That's why I wholeheartedly disagree with the ones posting that guys are refusing to marry because of legal and financial issues from divorce. Both sexes are waiting to find what they want while focusing on their careers. Marriage is just not a necessity like it used to be.
@ez-bri-z Time will tell who is right! Let's see. I know my money is on MGTOW. Literally! It's there is money to be made from this marriage fallout madness, and it's not just for lawyers.
It's a brave new world, and I welcome it.
😊
I'd wish you luck, but honestly I wouldn't want a world where people intentionally choose loneliness and misery over money.
Yeah I agree. A lot more cohabitation happening rn and I don't know if that's even a bad thing per say. Millennials and gen z adults are already having a hard enough time affording things right now, let alone throwing the cost of marriage (and potentially divorce) on top of student debt and the crazy housing/renting market. And like you said more people are focusing on their careers and schooling, which is the case for me at the moment. I want to start a family someday but not right now.
@HellGeist I've mostly seen MGTOW as just like a fringe group of dudes on the internet. Almost everyone I meet irl at my work and at parties don't have that mentality. So I doubt MGTOW is the reason for the lower marriage rates tbh, not to mention the fact that this trend dates back to 1960s and 70s, long preceding the MGTOW movement.
Thank you for pointing that last thing out about the trends before mgtow. You are absolutely right. It has been going down which is why I have been dismissing the idea that men somehow are choosing not to get married being the primary factor as false. If anything, it would be women choosing to delay that would be a bigger factor and mgtow coming from disillusioned young men who are upset that women are not the same subservient people their mothers and grandmothers had to be back in the day just to survive.
@ez-bri-z Show me a man with money, and I will show you a man who does not have to be lonely unless he wants to be or is damaged.
@cuzimbored21 Thank you for mentioning the trend for marital decline beginning in the 60's and 70's. That coincides perfectly with the rise of modern feminism and the birth control pill, both things that Red Pill philosophy addresses and points to as the cause of the decline in marriage seen today.
MGTOW is just one aspect of a broader thing. The "Manosphere" or Red Pill or what ever people want to call it.
Of course the problems that caused the decline in marriage predate MGTOW.
MGTOW, RP and the like is by definition a reactionary "movement" (or subcuture, praxis, philosophy, set of ideals, etc) that is a direct response and criticism of the excesses of feminism and liberalism.
Furthermore, many guys are literally Men Going Their Own Way without even knowing or agreeing with what MGTOW is!
All MGTOW really boils down to at the core is refusing the marriage arrangement.
Men have been doing that for a myriad of reasons for ages now. Feminism is one of the reasons why.
It's even a common meme at this point that "Karen took the house and kids."
The fact that the OP and so many commenters have brought up feminism much to her and others chagrin itself proves that feminism is having an impact on the way men think about marriage!
This is undeniable even if you stick your head in the sand and it continues to ring more true with each passing day as radical feminism does its damage.
There will always be a counterforce when an imbalance occurs. This is only natural.
Men who are terrified of feminism honestly are either just terrified that they are losing their power over women in society or are upset they can't just skate by in finding a woman just for having a job anymore.
Equality on its own merits should not be frightening unless you are power hungry to control another person.
Twisted strawman of my position and complete failure to address what I wrote.
This here exemplifies the issue with so many modern feminists and why there is a negative stigma attached to feminism.
They're so married (ironic) to their ideology that they fail to see the damage it is causing even when it is blatantly staring them in the eyes.
Zero accountability. Lots of shaming tactics and parroting of the whole "equality" line when clearly things are no longer "equal" anymore and no amount of extra "equality" or kowtowing will ever be enough.
Lemme just hold up that mirror for you so you can see yourself doing the same.
@HellGeist Don't really agree that men being scared of marriage/divorce is the main reason. I think these changes had more to do with women starting careers and going to college which meant that they put more focus on that in their youth rather than settling down as teenagers.
Changing divorce laws and women being able to have more financial freedom/independence also contributes to the higher divorce rates in that era obviously, which some would say is bad but I don't agree, I know so many of my older relatives who were stuck in insanely abusive marriages, and their kids were forced to stay in those environments too because they couldn't leave.
Also, a general shift away from the fast life strategy mentality of the postwar era occured where marriage rates for men and even women shot down to historic lows, then gradually returned to normal ages for men and historically high ages for women as they start their careers and go to post-secondary in bigger numbers. That's what the stats seem to show too.
Also, there's been a gradual shift in western society towards individualism and a shift away from collectivism and enforced monogamy. Also the increasingly difficult financial situations younger generations find themselves in must play some role I imagine now.
As someone who's working and pursuing a stem degree in my early 20s, I'm not looking to settle down as young as my working class blue collar grandparents who never finished high school, started their lifelong careers as teenagers and were looking to have kids as teenagers. I'm not avoiding marriage because I have some paranoia with women screwing me over, I'm just trying to get my life and career together and hoping to save up enough to one day afford a home. That's the reality more and more young people find themselves in today, regardless of gender.
You can try and play that false equivalency card if you like, but I have tried endlessly to engage with you in good faith, yet you've been deflecting and on the defensive the whole time. You mostly talked past me.
Thank you for proving and showcasing to other men and women that interacting with feminists and feminist ideology on any level is a waste of time and effort.
To paraphrase and readapt a line from a great movie:
A feminist is a woman who wants to be like a man sans reason and accountability.
I'm just glad that more and more guys (and girls too!) are seeing past the facade, false hope and floundering foolishness that is modern feminism.
@cuzimbored21 I'm not discounting your experience or what you're saying. I think you're largely correct. As I've stated elsewhere on this thread, I think a confluence of factors are at play in the decline in marriage.
Basically, I am just adding to what you are saying.
So it's largely [what you said] AND [what I am saying] AND [other important miscellaneous factors at play].
If you look at it from a macro point of view, many behaviors cannot be understood. Divorces are and remain high in segments of the population without tertiary education. They decline in tertiary-educated segments of the population, where marriages tend to be more stable and more frequent. When both have tertiary education, marriages tend to be more robust, for two reasons greater communication and greater economic well-being and greater risk of being alone. Most of the divorces are done by couples who tend to be young, and it is the woman who asks for a divorce. With women graduating from college much more easily than men, women marry late, marrying late increases the risk of being left alone in the event of a divorce, thus in itself diminishes divorces.
Lol divorce rates are down because none of the men in America are trying to get married.
Some people are even begin to doubt the validity of 'having a family'. I can't remember who exactly said it. It went something like this:
"Women are always looking for a slice of the fresh baked pie coming out of the oven, but show me a woman who's willing to walk into the kitchen and bake the pie with guy who hasn't made it yet." It's no wonder why these whole pie men treat women so badly. Have some faith in the men who are trying to build, give them shot.
I wonder how Elon Musk must feel on first dates. He probably just asks them straight up, so are you into me or my 300Billions?'
To be fair, even most guys find Elon interesting because of that level of money😅. Feel sorry for that guy sometimes.
lol who cares. Here’s 10 million I own you now… so says you can’t buy happiness.
No fault laws. Getting divorced just because is dumb.
I don't know why mgtow is an option since its existance is a reaction to feminisms power grabbing and the horrible divorce and family laws in America.
Women becoming more independent is only a problem when said independence comes with consequences, which women seem to be unable to handle and start hysterically crying about an imaginary oppression and getting tge government to bestow all sorts of privilages to combat said "oppression".
Also, what do men get out of it?
People just aren’t getting married now. It’s not that the divorce rate is down because more marriages are lasting longer but because the marriage rate is dropping. Couples just live together now instead of get married because it’s not frowned upon like it used to be in the 70s/80s
Weddings cost way too much to have. The internet where people are hooking up but not getting married. Divorce cost way too much anymore, and people can't afford to get divorced.
All of them but particularly a mix of A & E. In my opinion, i feel younger people don’t see marriage as the next big step like our parents did. so there's a lot less of the need to settle down and definitely a lot less need to have kids.
I believe it's a combination. Mainly women becoming more independent and having careers, cohabitation being widely accepted and even encouraged, premarital sex acceptance, less desire for having many children, and probably a few more reasons.
Exactly. Women only wanted us for money. They still go after us rich guys.
A combination of many things, some you listed. But most probably due to lack of spare money - other priorities take place first, and then there’s a change of values, people can be in happy relationships without marriages now. The only reason I see to marriage these days is ensuring your family all have the same name once you have children.
Passing on property.
When you really love someone you don’t think like that because you already trust them.
Because people as a whole are changing people are no longer willing to go through moments of hard times or unhappiness in a relationship they will simply move on plus the advent of getting a new relationship easy plays a massive part
Could it be because fewer couples are getting married; just living together?
Bingo. Though to give a more detailed answer, why do you think they are choosing to do that over what they did in the past and married before living together?
: )
Some reason—Because the cost of living went up and its cheaper to keep them if there is no prenup. Dating is usually a waste of time and energy and so they settle for the spouse they have.
Has to do with women independence. Lots of women stayed with men back then out of necessity while others couldn't deal with it no more and also divorce.
Now, most women are with men because they actually like and love their men.
Covid has caused it! The county courthouses have been closed due to covid and not open to hear cases. Covid also caused social gatherings to be shutdown so people didn't have the opportunity to meet and end up cheating leading to divorce.
This was happening even pre covid. Its been trending down for a while
that didn't stop my friend from continuing her wedding even tho we were in the highest surge and with a few people coming in from out of state putting us all at risk...
First off, congratulations to your friend! Weddings are super awesome possum.
Second, I was just saying I don't think it was covid doing it because even before covid was a thing, both rates were trending downwards. Dont get me wrong, I think the pandemic hasn't helped, but I do remember reading in the beginning of the pandemic domestic abuse cases went up. Curious that even with marriage rates going down that divorces didn't remain the same or spike.
it wasn't so awesome in the middle of a really bad pandemic...
I figure it would be harder, no doubt, but they are still married which is hopefully a good thing, right?
There's a big variance of economical and socio structural reasons. Birth control, female emancipation and many more. The one reason you said is actually the opposite. Inflation went way up and wage increases didn't. So now there's a situation where the single breadwinner model fails, cause a man alone does not earn enough anymore to have a standard comparable to that of earlier generations. Every generation after the boomers in fact was financially less well off.
I love your input , and I would add this ; The rise of personnal development trend , the individual needs to be complete first.
Women have gotten more vocal in social media about using men, for food dates, for money and lifestyle gains and half the mans worth.
Men too, sharing their misfortune with women on social media.
Obviously not all women are like that. While a big percetage are.
Nah... just a big number in the posts you have seen. There are lots who never post on social media or who are silent. I seriously doubt that number is as high as you think. Just some entitled few brats who think its ok to do that to people
Every guy i know have been used by a woman at least once in their life, one way or another, me myself included.
Again, not saying all, i have had plenty of great girlfriends too, but it is the "norm"
Cheating
The number one reason a divorce happens, is cheating
my cousins wife cheated on him. they're divorced
the girl i currently like, her ex accused her of cheating, when it was him who was the actual one cheating. they're divorcing
So.. if rates are down it means people don't cheat as much as they used to according to your theory?
no, divorce is actually up to 75%
Divorce is down to less than 3 per 1000 people
nope
Lol well ok. If you say it isn't then I guess the census statistic must be wrong.
it is
Lmao ok
*patpat* its whatever number you want it to be then