Marriage and divorce rates are down to levels not seen since the 70s. What do you attribute most to this decline?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Women becoming more independent

The 1980's making a generation materialistic and greedy

The rise of the internet/cell phones making people less social

MGTOW

The economy not being as crushing no longer requiring marriage out of necessity

Better sex education (ie. No shotgun marriages from an unplanned pregnancy)

Updates

+1 y

These numbers are most likely driven by millennials actually. They wait longer to get married and actually have better success staying married (18-27% less likely to get divorced than older generations). They are finding better partners and making sure they are financially secure before getting married meaning women are not as beholden to men being their sole source of income. Men can also focus on their own career without the pressure to start a family either.

Updates

+1 y

That being said, the pandemic has delayed both weddings and divorces with both closures and financial worries. Women has also left the workforce in large numbers during the pandemic to stay home with children who couldn't be sent to actual school buildings. It's curious to see how these numbers play out in the next 10 years.

[Anonymous]

Less people are getting married, women don’t want to get married. This is my take, if someone regardless if you are guy or girl, man or woman are not ready to get married, that’s okay forcing marriage is not. But I’m old school, I believe in marriage and i do want to get married. When people say do more with their lives I don’t know what they mean? Travel around the world? Because I haven’t travelled anywhere with my guy friends. I find a marriage more fulfilling, that feeling of love is special. But I just feel like the younger generation has a me-centric/I’m right attitude or are still immature so it’s a recipe for disaster if anyone has that mind set when it comes to marriage. If a marriage breaks because of cheating or money woes or violence I can understand. But if a woman leaves a man even though he’s a loving, caring, hard working man and she’s divorcing him because she’s “bored”, then people like that should not get married to begin with. When people say marriage is oppression I want to live my life…Having a job with a jerk of a boss and “travelling” once or twice a year is ultimate freedom, it really isn’t in my opinion, it’s just a facade. Some people are soo broken inside they don’t want to get married because some crush scorned them or their parents didn’t love each other so they don’t want to repeat history. There are many reasons why. I will find a girl I love and I will get married and love her and care for her as a guy/man should. I don’t care if people want to be single and say fuck marriage because one day people age and will just die alone not having that one true companion, even friends move on and you gotta retire. I believe in the hereafter of heaven or hell so i want to be a good person so you can be reunited with your spouse in heaven. People can dislike my comment or laugh or cringe at this comment but I don’t care. People also laughed at me when I warned people something bad is going to happen back in 2019 for 2020, and lo and behold it did sooo 🤷🏻‍♂️

[wankiam]

voted g... my theory is now that it has become less of a societal demand to be married, people tend to do it for more genuine reasons... love rather than feeling they ust need to. also the slow demise of the church will have played a part.

[wankiam]

amazing that some people didn't understand the question and what you are saying but instead decided to attack feminism... honestly this place

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I'll be honest, I kinda included it just because of that reason. It's why I also included an option for mgtow.

There are a lot of angry people who don't think things through. They latch on to their echo chambers of hatred. It's good to expose it a bit and speak to it. I dont expect to change anyone's minds, but I would love for them to at least see opposing points of view and hope they can apply critical thinking.

Unfortunately it is still a lot of "rawr feminism". Funny thing is, for those who have seen my posts in the past, I'm for equality both ways. I've stuck up for guys on here too and the unfair treatment they get.

People don't know how to feel safe until they have a boogeyman to fear.

[wankiam]

feminism is about equality... on that we seem to agree but where these affronted guys seem to be slipping up is that its about making their lives fairer too. the patriachy dictates men should be a certain way when clearly we aren't all built that way... this is why so many middle age men commit suicide, the burden has become too much. put simply its about no longer putting women on a pedestal but instead having them stood by our side. i know which i prefer

[wankiam]

@HellGeist think of it like this... when you steer a boat and it goes to the right a bit one will always over correct and it will head too far to the left for a spell... eventually it levels out. feminism is not a bad thing and neither is what it aims to achieve but you either over react to every move or just stay onboard to the end... in the end we may all be happy. other than that we will have to agree to disagree

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I am centrist. I am also a feminist who believe in true equal rights. You can look at my post history where I defend both men and women depending on where it is needed. I truly do not want women to be better than men but I also don't want men to be better than woman when it comes to opportunities and treatment.

Yes, I fully and whole heartedly disagree that marriage rates are going down primarily because men are refusing to get married due to financial responsibilities to women. Again, that is such a minor and insignificant part of it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that it barely cracks the scales of being relevant.

Even in this poll, against all the other options, it's only at 20%. It's tied with cell phones and cell phones weren't even a thing that were common in the 70s and 80s. I've given the reasons why it is happening based on actual studies, not just you scrounging message boards and best guesses.

[wankiam]

@ez-bri-z thanks for mho by the way

[Ez-Bri-Z]

@ChiTown33 Go read his other posts with me.

@wankiam you are most welcome!

[wankiam]

@ChiTown33 and all on my post so i keep getting pointless notifications... perhaps you could all continue it on your own threads instead of mine... thankyou

[wankiam]

ok so i asked nicely and got ignored... you will see i removed all your stuff because while i appreciated your input on the points i made, i did not invite you to use my thread to drawer out your own narrative for nearly 24 hours

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Sorry, one last post here, Wankiam since this dude hasn't got the message.

@HellGeist he was very clear not to post again and you've decided to do so. I removed your messages this time and since you've become extreme rude and inflammatory, I am straight up just blocking you completely which I hate doing to anyone.

I really despise echo chambers and welcome all points of view, but generally when it stays relatively civil. You've chosen not to be and will now be removed from participating.

Wankiam, I apologize again. Have a great day.

[AmandaYVR]

It's because people are waiting until they are older to get married, so they tend to know themselves and the other person better. Fewer surprises, less growing apart as they age/grow internally.
Also, in times of economic instability, this causes stress; which causes more bickering and issues come up in the marriage. But it also means both parties are in a less viable economic situation to split up. Divorce is costly.
These are the two reasons that I remember reading. There are others, but can't remember atm.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Thank you for answer!

I'd love to see the fully researched answer if you are so inclined to do so. Maybe even a MyTake if we are lucky! I always love reading your work so I am sort of being selfish in that request lol

[AmandaYVR]

Aww thank you, that's so kind of you.
I need some 'Focusin' ha ha. (Simpsons old joke.) So many thoughts...
(And right now I'm distracted Black Friday leather boot shopping. Hold me back, girl...)

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Oh my gosh, I'm already adding clothes to my cart as well as a drawing tablet. I'm not doing much better in being reserved for my shopping habits.

Let's only hope that we are able to recover quickly without a need for secondary jobs lol

[AmandaYVR]

Hahahaha. You're on your own now. I just hit Submit!!

But dang the boots were sure a lot off.
I'm so excited.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Oh those are cute! That reminds me that I need to get a boot with a wider heel.

[dustybiker]

It’s probably a mixture of all of those things. They are all pretty strong reasons.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Thank you! Personally I agree with your assessment and that it isn't tied to a particular one, but my curiosity always loves to list specific reasons and see who chooses the option not given. The ones who go with the option not given always make me smile the most.

For those who pick a specific reason, I'm always curious as to why that one specifically.

[MrOracle]

Divorce rates have fallen, but only because marriage rates have fallen to an all-time low. You can't divorce if you never marry.

You aren't going to like the answer to the question, but the answer is Feminism. Specifically, because the Feminist movement was taken over by Marxists and started pushing for Marxist goals instead of equality. Karl Marx understood that you can't convert a functioning western democracy to Marxism, democracy is too strong and too free. Instead, you must first completely destroy all aspects of western society.

Marxists took over Feminism because they could use it as a platform to destroy marriage in western societies. That's literally their often-stated goal, though they pretend that it's "for the women" - except it's the women that WANT to be married, especially when they are older. But it's really GenX women who are experiencing the reality in big numbers, and most are too afraid to admit they were wrong, and too afraid of being "gender traitors" to warn younger women - who wouldn't want to listen anyway.

The birthrate is also falling off a cliff, and that's going to be a huge problem for single women, as there will be no Social Security with so few younger people working and paying in. South Korea is already experiencing this - women aren't able to retire because they have no retirement savings and the social program's are out of money because the birthrate has been so low there.

People think that they're going to retire and live comfortably like their Boomer parents, but Boomers already spent all the money, and GenX didn't have enough kids, and Millennials are having far fewer kids. That's a tax base disaster that is coming and can't be avoided.

[VanillaSalt]

I’ll be avoiding it lol. I got a 401k

[disgustingweebtrash]

Lower births isn't a bad thing as it will correct itself without intervention, it's only bad if you like funny imaginary numbers such as GDP

[MrOracle]

@disgustingweebtrash The birthrates on their own aren't so much the issue - the issue is that social systems are built around the idea that the population will continue to grow. Let's take Social Security for example: there's no big pile of money that's invested. The people collecting SS are getting it from the people paying into the system today. That worked fine for the last couple of generations because the population was growing - more money was coming in than going out. That's no longer the case, but it's going to get much, much worse, because we're only just at the tipping point. As the years go by, there's going to be fewer and fewer people paying in, and more and more people trying to take from the fund, and there's not going to be enough money - nowhere close. This is pretty simple math, but no one wants to talk about it because it's bad news, and because it goes against the narrative.

That's the thing about systems - they are based on a set of assumptions that often doesn't remain consistent, and those systems rarely have much flexibility built into them, plus, given SS is money, politicians will always find a "good reason" to raid the fund anytime there's a positive balance, and let someone else deal with the shortfall.

[Shizunk]

Its a mix. Feminism, socialiam and other ideologies are the biggest influence though. People do what makes them think they can achieve status and recognition. Historically, a woman would be valued based on her ability to give birth to and take care of children.
And a man, even a wealthy one was judged on his ability to financially sustain a household.
Both would be pressured by society into never ever publicly breaking a marriage vow (though the definition was sometimes a bit flexible).
Now a woman must have a great income because it is "too risky" to skip that. What if her husband abandoned her? And if she decides to instead leave him on a whim, she doesn't need to crawl back to her family humiliated. She just asks for a government handout which is "normal".
Money>fun>stability>children.
What used to be very personally encouraged and discouraged by a whole lot of people you knew is now just your personal business and requires some extra bureaucratic procedure at worst. The stigma around bad choices was removed and at the same time people are encouraged to not trust the other, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more we remind everyone how people are bad, unreliable and are going to cheat and leave you anyway, the more people will try to hedge their bets, the less they will fight when things inevitably get tough and the more entitled they may feel to an idealized pleasure.
Long story short, normalizing divorce leads to more divorce. People who value marriage and expect to succeed are more likely to stay. Both negative and positive pressures are weakened today in attempts to fight inequality.

[BCA6010]

A doesn't necessarily matter, because what really matters is whether or not women actually want a family. A self-driven woman perfectly capable of taking care of herself isn't rejecting marriage because of it.

B is a minor contributor, a footnote at most.

C at face value isn't a big factor, but the related hookup/dating app culture is a huge factor. It has essentially turned dating and relationships into online shopping for disposable goods.

D also minor. MGTOW is pretty much a direct reaction to anti-male feminist extremism by people who largely are not and were not interested in marriage and families anyway.

E is actually the opposite of reality: it was much easier to have a single-earner household at pretty much any point in US history compared to now.

F I don't believe that's actually the case. Sex education has certainly not gotten "better" or had a major impact.

I'm voting C, but really it's a bit of most of these and also a major factor you left out: the culture itself. In the US, religion and religious values are on a downward slope. Pretty much all major religions promote strong family units and lifelong commitments, but as people distance themselves from those teachings and values, and embrace counteractive concepts such as the left/far left idea of dismantling the nuclear family, then marriage and procreation likewise go down. Right now, the only reason that the US population is increasing is because of immigration.

[Anonymous]

Its attributed to statistics done on the wrong scales as always.

Marriage rates are dow n because no one is getting married anymore. But the divorce rate out of the married ones is still high.
Divorce rate out of the whole population is lower since you need marriage to get a divorce.

And yes it's due to this false "empowerment" of women we keep seeing.
Women are told "don't get married strong women don't need men in their lives"
And so they don't until it's too late.
Go do a study on how many women in their 40's are lonely and miserable and the numbers will shock you.

Marriage has been so demonized by the media that those who do get married are called stupid for it.

But at the end of the day, regardless of what people had the freedom to do or not do in the 70's they were happier overall.
Freedom is important, but brain washing a generation into making destructive choices and living unhappy is a crime against humanity.

[This_Is_My_Opinion8]

That is not how percentages work.
She said divorce rates. Meaning it's applied to the total amount of marriages.
If out of 100 marriages half fail or if out of 1000 marriages half fail your divorce rate will always be be 50%. If the rate is going down then just means that the few marriages we have today work better than the shit ton of marriages that we used to have.

[Opinion Owner]

More marriages mean more divorce. But less marriages mean more lonely people. Either way people are left alone. We haven't fixed society. By demonizing marriages we just skipped a phase and ended up lonely anyway.

So when you say it works better, sure it works better for the few who DO get married but what about the many ebo don't? Do they not get to try their hand at the married life? The way current brainwashing works they are told not to even bother

[This_Is_My_Opinion8]

It's sad that more people are lonely, but that is better than marrying for the wrong reasons and divorce later.

I agree that people should look for their other halfs. But people in general have a harder time doing that now.

[Opinion Owner]

Then you and I are in agreement.
People have a harder time because we have convinced ourselves that it's ok not to try.
Sure being lonely without having to pay child support is better than being lovely and having to pay it but ideally People shouldn't be happy being lonely it's way to romanticized and pushed as this great and powerful thing

[This_Is_My_Opinion8]

Being alone is one of the worst things there is. More men and women will be alone in a few years and they will regret not trying.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Ty timo8 for understanding statistics 😊

If they were happier then the marriage and divorce rates wouldn't be going down. Marriages before then were based heavily on necessity for women and not love. It was harder for women to find work or work with a decent wage. Gay marriage wasn't a legal thing either so a lot of women married just to be able to survive.

That isn't the case anymore. It is much easier to find employment with living wages (though still a difference in pay gap). Women can choose to marry more for love and some men have not adapted to the idea that a steady job is no longer enough to find someone. They have to actually have more to offer like a good personality or in some women's cases, good looks or money to make them more appealing.

[This_Is_My_Opinion8]

Please make a take out of your last comment!

[This_Is_My_Opinion8]

@ez-bri-z I really think more guys need to hear that today a job is not enough. You also need to be a good person and have chemistry with your partner... and that's fine! That how is supposed to be.

[Opinion Owner]

Didn't you just say being alone is the worst thing there is?
She's literally saying the opposite of that absolving people of accountability saying you don't want a divorce don't get married instead of saying DO get married and BE a good spouse not to mention chose the right person to marry

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Thats not what I said at all.

I said, people are not obligated to marry strictly for finances anymore. It used to be a woman would have to remain miserable, but stay with a guy because she didn't have any other options.

Now people can marry for love and guys can't just bring "I have a job" to the table. A woman has more choices now and some men need to realize it takes more to find a partner now.

[This_Is_My_Opinion8]

I don't think she is against one looking for the right person instead of just giving up and accept being alone.

[I_Am_Sazerac]

Honestly its a mix of all your options. But the two glaring ones are MGTOW and the financial risk.

It is a good thing women are more independent, but there are even predators among women, and those women know the courts are still biased and know that other men will come to a woman's rescue if they whisper the right words in the right ears. They will find a man, cozy up, then either make false claims or divorce and take half to 80% of all the man's resources, leaving him destitute and broken while she enjoys the fruits of his labor, and repeats the action.

Men fear those types of women, but even if the woman they have isn't like that and is a genuinely good person, the woman can STILL take all of his resources, even if she has her own money, if the marriage doesn't work.

The courts are more biased against men in this regards and men are scared. Men do the same thing to women and can get away with it just as much, but as I mentioned, the court are more in favor.

In this regard, I see more domestic partnerships than a sealing marriage because both parties opted this rout for "just incase".

[HellGeist]

Yeah, summed it up better than me.

I think some people downplay MGTOW and the closely related financial risk issue because on some level it worries them either personally or just generally.

Make no mistake, the decline is necessary and good short term. It needed to happen because feminism got out of hand and now we have the blowback.

But this is not good long term for the fabric of society and stable families.

The family unit is the building block of nations.

[I_Am_Sazerac]

Woops, I cut off a sentence or two lol. What I was saying at the end was despite all of this, the courts are still more biased towards women and against men, as society teaches men are expendable wallets to be thrown out when we are used up.

[HellGeist]

Indeed.

[Exterminatore]

The divorce rates are down because there are less intact marriages. Duh.


Marriages are down because men won’t marry odious feminist and dyke left wing shrews. Modern women have little to offer men and are utterly worthless.


The women won’t marry the men because they’ve spent decades emasculating them and turning them into man bun wearing, man purse having, sissified candy asses. Or have been busy creating a gynocentric society that is set up for women to succeed at the expense of men and and so for the majority of the rest of men who do not read the Vagina Monologues, they are losers. They live in their moms basements until their 30’s smoking pot daily and masturbating to porn daily while playing video games all day when they are not at their part time jobs or marching in some protest against big business.


Not to mention the west is in moral decline and marriage is not seen as necessary to have sex or children.


Additionally, in the case of a divorce, men will be left penniless and women leave the marriage with cash and prizes so it is dangerous for men to marry.


Why are you on here asking these questions anyway? Doesn’t your feminist ass have stuff to do with your bull dyke girlfriend because you can’t get a man?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Aww look the child wants to play and act like a big boy!

Ok kiddo! Let's play.

First off it wasn't a comparison of marriages against divorces. It was saying both are down, but hey way to point out the obvious! Gold star for you!

We have little to offer men and yet day after day I see posts of insecure men wondering how to find girls to like them and to be sure they are satisfied. Just because you are alone doesn't mean all the big boys around you want to be.

Also according to your playmates apparently all we care about is money so them being emasculated would only make it easier to get that money, wouldn't it? I know it's scary that women are not putting up with your temper tantrums anymore, but you'll just have to dry your tears and suck it up, buttercup.

Can't help you with the moral decline. You obviously lack morality yourself so trying to explain this part to you would be like explaining calculus to a snail. You'd be too slow to understand it.

In the case of a divorce, the higher earner may be subjected to alimony regardless if it is a man or a woman. A simple prenup fixes this issue so if you can't figure that part out, then honestly we don't have to ask any other woman to take one for the team and marry your stupid ass.

Why are you answering my questions on here? Don't you have a bed time to adhere to or is it because you are off Thanksgiving week with all the other kids?

PS, getting a man is easy. Finding a good one worth my time is a lot harder.

[HellGeist]

I agree with much of what you're saying, but no need for the vitriol man.

The punishment for the sins of society is inherent to the sins themselves.

Pity the feminists, don't hate them. It's bad for the soul.

Invest in Boxed Wine and cats.

[HellGeist]

Prenups do not "fix the issue."

Prenups can get thrown out depending on the whims of the court and judge.

There is also the issue of Common Law marriage.

[ChrisMaster69]

Over here I think it’s down to less people bothering with the bollox of getting married.

There are also two schools of thought over the impact of lockdown on families as well.

one side is it pushed families back together as all in the house, parents spent more time with each other and with their kids, actually getting involved in each other’s lives.

the other side, says the above was a nightmare and exposed families to areas they did not want to admit they sucked at, as in having a relationship and being a family.

my positive view is that families came out of it with a better understanding of each other, what their kids actually want and need, what each other need and want.

often facing adversity together makes us stronger as a whole,

[exitseven]

Social media has stunted a lot of people in regards to making relationships With social media people "meet" hundreds or thousands of people but do not form any intimate relationships. As the age for people using social media gets younger, the issue becomes more pronounced.
Nobody puts in the time of effort to get to know somebody anymore and many people lack the skills to do that. The irony is that "social media" has just the opposite effect.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I think this is a great start but only half of it. I also think that with as quick as social media changes with both news and trends that we as a society have become more entwined with the nice big exciting thing. Why tie yourself down to one person when you could have fun with many? If you do tie yourself down its done so quick that by the time you realize who you married you want out. Divorces are stupid easy to get now so the numbers chart next to each other.

[exitseven]

@ez-bri-z Yes, Just by what I read here on GaG, these kids are dependent on social media even though many are aware that it is not the best way to live. It is pretty obvious that these kids are not happy. I work in higher ed and I watch groups of kids walking between classes. They walk together but each has their nose buried in their phones. Nobody talks to each other. It really is not healthy.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I work in tech and I have a weird relationship with it. I dont watch TV and try to limit our kids on it too. I dont do things like tiktok or anything (though my wife does). I try to find a good balance for our kids to understand tech but not to become engrossed by it.

[exitseven]

Yes, I work in tech as well and I also have a strange relationship with it. I can tell you how it all works but I have little use for most of it.

[Oigit]

I'd say that for a long time too much weight was put on marriage and for a while people have woken up to that. Going without food, shelter and sleep will kill you. Because all three are basic needs for our survival. But for a long time so much weight was put on getting married that it might as well be on the list as well. Now people are becoming aware that getting married isn't as important as it's made out to be. So people are perfect happy and content not getting married. People are also not willing to stick it out in a bad marriage for the same reason.

[Jamie05rhs]

Divorce rates increased dramatically during the second half of the 20th Century. Younger men (and women) in later generations saw this occurring, so many of them chose to avoid marriage entirely, because they didn't want to take the risk.
I am one of these people. I am pro-marriage, and I want to get married, and yet I am extremely cautious about it. Because I refuse to become another statistic like everyone else.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

The rates went higher for marriages right before every major war and then the divorce rates followed right after them. Pretty telling there.

[Jamie05rhs]

@Ez-Bri-Z Yes, that IS pretty telling.
I think there are a few conclusions we can draw from that:
1. People rushed to get married to their sweetheart so they could have the chance to have sex with them before they died. (Rushing anything is never good.)
2. PTSD was not understood and was untreated. That leads to many problems in the relationship. Also, you can't program a man to be a killer and then expect him to turn around and transition immediately into a gentle lover. It doesn't work that way. (That's one of the reasons I personally was not interested in fighting in a war. Because I was afraid of what it would do to me.)

[Jamie05rhs]

I'm kind of surprised by the poll numbers, that most of the females voted for the reason of women becoming more independent. Does that mean that the theory is true that women don't marry for love and they only marry to mooch off of men? I'm not saying that to be offensive to anyone. But what other explanation can one draw from that data?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Nope it means the opposite. We are marrying for love and not just being forced to marry right out of high school to have a stable income from a man. We can be more independent and start our own careers and become financially stable (see my updates about millennials behaviors) and then find a perfect partner and settle down for the right reasons, not out of necessity.

[Jamie05rhs]

@Ez-Bri-Z Oh- good point.

[Jamie05rhs]

Ok, I read your update. So... men don't really have "pressure" to start a family. It just comes naturally. It's biological for us.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

It used to be that men were promoted in the work place if they were seen as a family man so they had a financial gain to get married. Those traditions stuck until about the 80s where materialistic greed came into play more. It was then more about how much you could give to the company and less about being a stable family man.

[Jamie05rhs]

@Ez-Bri-Z That is so true.

[Anonymous]

This so funny that how many men are butthurt because of Feminism. Women and men should be equal and have the same rights in the first place. MANY years women live in the society in which patriarchy exists. No men talked about it they were very content happy. They were dominating the women cheat them multiple times and come to the clean home and eat the meal their wives cooked to them. The women have no choice not to marry with them. Because women were not allowed to work now they are allowed to work and they can choose who to marry the traditional men who does not want to marry with Feminists, do they think that Feminists want to marry with them 😂 of course not. So there is not a problem. Answer of your question is mixture of the all choices i think. We can not give all the pressure to one choice. Everything can be the reason.

[Bricealan]

I'm thinking that MOST of the things you list are the causal factors. As for me, the "plague' has isolated me to the point of me living like a "monk' in a monastery. I do notice some 'easing' of the mask requirements here in Orange County, and I tend to get out more and be more social.

My one and only marriage, ended in a disaster that took me literally YEARS to recover from emotionally, and my present lady friend and I seem to negotiate the problems we see pretty well.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Sure that would account for the last 2 years, but rates have been declining even before then

[Breanna_nonbinary]

The divorce rate is stupid. We only look at the conclusion that we draw from it. They say that 50% of marriages end in divorce. It’s shocking, I know. However if we look closer you’ll realize that that marriage can only end two ways: divorce or death. So basically 50% of marriages end in death.
This, like all scientific studies, can have a conclusion that is simplistic in nature usually that’s all that we hear. The marriage statistic doesn’t reveal the length of time people were married, the reason they divorced, if it was amicable, what the age they were married, if it is the first marriage etc. however those statistics can’t be sensationalized into a headline.
So anytime you hear about a study’s results keep in mind that it’s only one person’s interpretation of the raw data.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

The interpretation doesn't matter as much as the raw numbers do. Yes marriages can end in death or divorce but that number doesn't have to be 50/50. You could literally have 80% end in death meaning only 20% end in divorce.

Now interpretation looks at that 20% and asks, does this mean everyone is happy and staying together? Is everyone miserable and can't divorce (look at the numbers from the early 1900s to see numbers that low)? Or is every spouse just killing off their mate which leads to high death numbers?

People can say it is any of those because that is how they interpreted it.

[VanillaSalt]

Your also saying that 50% of people are unhappy in marriage… the numbers currently 53% by the way. Also women are responsible for 80% of divorce. Also you’ll find divorce negatively effects men uniquely. Sure both men and women suffer after but women get poor because they choose divorce when they can’t make it in their own but men get poor because were expected to support these women after the fact. Unacceptable consequences.

[Fuentes]

I think it has a lot to do with the economy back then you see people finished high school and went to college and got married and could afford most of everything or some would finish high school and become a manager with good pay and be able to afford a family. These days everything is so sky rocketed high having a family puts a strain on the marriage and things never work out.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Its actually reversed from then when it comes to education. More women (maybe just prior to the pandemic anyway) were seeking higher education than they had in the past. Their focus on financial security and their career took priority over the past where women were pretty much marrying right out of high school.

Since the pandemic, rates have skyrocketed but so far it hasn't led to an increase in marriage but it has also led to a drop in divorces. People are finding ways to cohabitate rather than marry as a good alternative to long term commitment while circumventing the financial issues.

[HellGeist]

It's a confluence of factors. Could be all of the above.

For the record, I understand that Divorce rates are up. Not going down.

Marriage is indeed going down.

Part of the cause is Modern Feminism.

Thanks to the internet, guys are sharing their experiences and now Western women are not seen as marriage material as a generality among many men who have been through divorce or are products of divorce or who learn from eachother's pain and experiences.

I think the trend will continue. It's just natural blowback.

Eventually things have a way of balancing themselves out when extremes are reached.

It's a good thing in the short run, but long term it could lead to societal degradation, but I invest in crypto, not societal values, lmao.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Divorce rates are going down. They are under 3 divorces per 1000 people. This is backed by the US census bureau as well.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

At the pandemic first 8-12 months divorces did initially spike as people were forced to be around each other and found out they really hated their partner. This number has dropped dramatically since then.

[HellGeist]

Ah, you know what? That makes sense. I think you're right.

Divorce must be going down because marriage is down. Duh.

Divorce rate cannot stay high if men aren't getting married anymore.

Good on you, lads! Maybe men aren't hopeless, lmao.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Well, it's both sexes and as it says in my update, it's most likely being driven by millennials both male and female. They are choosing to focus on career before family.

[HellGeist]

Women push for marriage usually more than men do. And also file for divorce more than men do.

What you're saying may well be true, but again I think it is a confluence of factors.

To boil it down to just Millenials being Millennials and people wanting careers is an oversimplification in my opinion.

I don't think it's a coincidence that MGTOW and adjacent male philosophies have blown up exponentially over just the past several years like I have witnessed first hand, and that all of a sudden marriage and divorce is down.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Has it blown up really or is it just that it is easier to see with the spread of social media?

For example, there have always been women who sell their sexuality, it is just now with things like only fans, its a hell of a lot easier to do.

Same for people who want to be famous. YouTube and twitch have allowed those who would have never been noticed by places like Hollywood to make a name for themselves.

[Moose304]

I suggest you do a whole lot more digging! You are just skimming this problem. I work with men that are dealing with wives that have in most cases "monkey branched" into other relationships. In almost every case there are children involved. Also, the divorce process is expensive and the couple can't afford to get divorced and for logistical reasons just remain roommates OR sleep in separate bedrooms. Right now I could list over 20 couples that are just maintaining a relationship on paper waiting for the kids to grow up. I am going to challenge your premise about rates declining, but the point is not worth arguing about. I am not coming from the red pill MGTOW position because I refuse to chase after that rabbit hole. I do know for a fact that the rate of marriages is at a century low point right now. I know about 150 people that are 40+ I work with a lot of them and some I just know in my personal life. Of that group, about 30 of them are still married. I admit several of the men are basically incels that are NEVER going to marry. Still, I caution you to dig deeper into the dynamics of this!

[HellGeist]

Yes. It has blown up exponentially. I know because I was a part of it and although I no longer identify as whatever MGTOW is supposed to be now, I still like to keep tabs on the trends of certain things and business is booming for MGTOW (mostly Red Pill) content.

YouTube and many Social Media sites HATE this sort of controversial male-centric content, and yet it just keeps growing.

New Blood is always cycling in, without a need for advertising or fanfare because men naturally go through certain experiences with women and then before you know it they are exposed to MGTOW-type content whether they like it or not.

So even with social media against it, it grows because anytime there is demand for something it does not matter if it has to go underground, people will seek it.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

@Moose304 no offense but these are coming from actual large scale data sources like the us census showing marriage and divorce rates as well as scientific studies into trends like this. You knowing 20 people is entirely small scale in the grand scheme of things. I will trust in the larger studies for now, but if you want to bring me hard evidence to the contrary from something reputable I'd be more than glad to read it. 😊

@HellGeist it's possible. I'm not part of that world, though I still challenge that it is probably based on the availability of it and how quick people are to follow trends now if they see it on social media. (This really is just a holdover from the days people would blame tv for people doing stupid things)

[HellGeist]

Honestly, I think a lot of these "studies" and things often have an agenda depending on the finances and sometimes they miss the forest from the trees and over-complicate simple processes and trends to justify the funding or point fingers away from the glaringly obvious.

Men are pretty simple creatures as far as people go. We know most men are attracted to women and like sex. Many men want to start a family with a woman.

Then it would follow naturally that such men would get married at some point, yes?

And for the longest time, they did just that!

But now, what has changed?

The bottom line is that marriage is no longer an attractive option for many men. The reasons why are quite clear at this point. That's a closely related topic.

And if you go on TikTok and the like, (please do not) you will find no shortage of women bemoaning their situationships and saying that guys won't commit to them.

You have an increasing amount of men who DO NOT want to be married, and another sizable group of men who CAN'T get married, for whatever reason.

This is why you see the rise of MGTOW, the Red Pill and Incels.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

You are letting your own bias cloud your judgment the same as you accuse the studies of. You visit circles of interest to you which means you are more likely to find ideals and evidence to back your claims because that is exactly what you sought to find to begin with.

Do I doubt some men are choosing not to get married out of sheer hatred of the ideal of marriage? Not at all.

Do I think it is a driving factor into the large scale changes we have been seeing? Not even close.

[Moose304]

No offense taken. You are simply wrong and I really don't have the time right now to get into the minutia of all of this! Right now I am finishing up some business before boarding a flight to Europe for business. maybe in a few days if I can remember I will post some links to better more detailed information that comes from the actual state offices that process marriages and divorces! Until then peace!

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I mean.. I'm not wrong, but id love to see your data if you remember to find any!

In any case, have a safe flight and trip. I know it is business related, but hopefully it is still a fun trip regardless.

[Moose304]

You are not wrong with the aggregate data. www.cdc.gov/.../...arriage-divorce-rates-00-19.pdf The rates per 1000 have declined per the data. The problem is this data is pure data and does not take in real-world situations. Remember I deal with these things almost every day. I can't link to any studies to support me. this is not because I am making this up, but because to the best of my knowledge, there have been no studies done. I suspect if all the people still living under one roof that was just roommates living miserable lives and in some cases, in now open marriages was taken into account, those rates in that link may well double. Remember I DEAL WITH THIS! Some couples are in such deep debt they can't maintain two residences! You have got to understand that "studies" are only as good as their underlying data. In this case, you are using divorce when it would be best to use the term not divorced but living separate lives as well!

[HellGeist]

You're welcome to believe what you want, but I encourage you to keep up on where the trend is leading.

If MGTOW and the RP was a stock or crypto currency, I would put good money on it. And actually, I would have already seen ROI, because they were ahead of the curb on this topic.

I follow my experiences and what I've read and learned over time. All the signs are pointing to a continued decline in marriage.

MGTOW even pined for this and predicted it years ago. It is celebrated.

I also encourage you to research some well-made RP-type videos that break down this trend in detail.

The best ones come with their sources in the description, but YouTube is always messing with such things. However, there are some good content creators still around who go into the question your are posing in detail.

It's a popular question in my circles for a reason. You can dismiss it in favor of whatever the mainstream narrative being pushed is, but most people who have been in my circles are not surprised with this decline AT ALL, while mainstream sources are scrambling for reasons and answers.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I dont know what you deal with. I dont know you personally. Lol

If you can't link to any studies then I dont really have any reason to take you at face value unfortunately. It's literally your word vs multiple studies. Sorry.

@HellGeist this is exactly what I dont want to do. That is an echo chamber who is looking for a specific result. Numbers like the census bureau has no agenda other than reporting the data that was given. Now if you want to say the studies done by talking to people who fall into those categories is biased, ok, I'll bite there. The thing is, the trends are not just the US, the same age brackets are doing the same thing in the UK as well. Cohabitation with millenials is way more common than in the past with unmarried couples.

[Moose304]

You pretty well summed up my position as I will no longer respond to this person. I do try to avoid that MGTOW thing though!

[HellGeist]

@Moose304 Yeah. I don't blame you dude.

[HellGeist]

I don't really get why you're mentioning other countries having the same issue as US as though it is a "gotcha" on my position.

Guys in the so-called "Manosphere" (really dumb name, lmao) have known this as soon as it happened and some even predicted it.

Really, much of the whole MGTOW thing started in Japan with the so-called "Herbivore Men."

The RP phenomenon has always been international. So thank you for bringing that up because that is simply more proof for my side.

Of course marriage is also down in the UK. Lol. I would be surprised if it was just the US!

It seems to me you are slightly straw-manning me. Probably even by accident.

I'm not saying the studies are all wrong. I actually keep agreeing with a lot of your reasons for the decline that you bring up.

I just think it is likely that many mainstream studies slant, miss or understate the factor of online male subcultures on marriage and dating trends.

The point I am making is not to be in an echo chamber, be it a mainstream "academic" sort of echo chamber that is bound to favod certain elements of Political Correctness, or an internet echo chamber.

What I am saying is that if you discount MGTOW and the like, you are missing a huge component to the answer of the question you posed.

[HellGeist]

Also, please notice that in my OP I wrote

"Western women are not seen as marriage material as a generality among many men.."

I acknowledged off the bat that this phenomenon is not restricted to one nation.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I also acknowledged what you stated as a reason exists. I am just saying in the overall reason it is a tiny fraction of why some wouldn't.

This also wouldn't change even if things alimony didn't exist. Those guys just already have a mindset of marriage that is based around their own greed and manifested on to a plurality of women when that just doesn't hold true.

Women now want to be self sufficient and hold their own careers. Are there gold diggers? Absolutely. Again that is a tiny fraction.

If your theory holds true then we will never see a spike in marriages again unless financial dynamics change. The problem is, those groups argue out of both sides of their mouths. They complain women are only seeking them for their money but also complain women are at fault for buying into feminists movements and being independent to support themselves. They complain about women who feel comfortable enough to use their sexuality to draw an income, but then are some of the first in line to hand over money for it. They can't have it both ways. What they want is a subservient woman who is dependent on them until they get bored of that woman and want to move on without consequence. Those days don't exist anymore.

[HellGeist]

I agree to disagree. We clearly have conflicting ideologies, and another time It would be fun to hash it out perhaps, but I cannot be here all day. We're kind of talking past each other now.

I will conclude my points for now by saying that perception is everything!

Look at the stock market and the way economies work. The way Bitcoin and investment and trading plays out for example.

Even if you coming from your more Feminist perspective were 110% as right as you think you are about RP-type men having a hypocritical/incorrect/biased perception of modern women, the PERCEPTION is there for a REASON.

And regardless of validity of said reasons, Perception is always key!

I think of sexual/gender dynamics as a marketplace, because it is!

People can be categorized by their Sexual Market Value.

If we treat marriage like a stock or a brand people invest in, we can see clearly that perception of the instiution of marriage plays a key role in the way sexual and gender dynamics play out.

I think there are bound to be fluctuations up and down as marriage stagnates and declines, but I would be VERY surprised if Marriage rates recover to a "normal" level at this point.

But you know what? I could be wrong. But like you believe you're right, I doubt I am wrong. This decline is not a fluke. It is a phenomenon that people are explaining away because it does not bode well for women or society as a whole long term.

Cheers. Be safe.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

If women are as independent as things seem to indicate, we will be just fine.

Society on the other hand will definitely be interesting. Not necessarily bad, just different. Could be interesting and the side of me that loves to just see how things work would love to see how it plays out.

[HellGeist]

There are alarming statistics out there that show that many Western women are deeply unfulfilled and unhappy.

Will a subset of women be just fine? Absolutely! And that's good.

But you are casually painting over the suffering of others of your gender, which honestly doesn't sound truly feminist to me.

Men will be fine as well in the end. Men pretty much built everything and keep society running smoothly.

But the family unit is the building block of nations.

Look at the harm simply caused by broken families and the stats on single motherhood and its links to crime and suffering.

People are becoming more and more atomized. Isolated.

If you think that bodes well for the health of society overall, I don't know what to tell you.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I didn't say it did bode well. I said not necessarily bad, just different. We experience a new family unit that isn't stapled in a traditional mindset. We as humans have always adapted to change. It would be no different for this either.

[HellGeist]

Well, I am saying that it does NOT bode well, and it will not be fine or healthy.

Humans (whether evolved, designed or both) function a certain way. This is for good reason.

Yes we adapt, but too much change at once is a shock to the system. And for all this change there is a cost.

Society will and is already paying the price. It will continue to. In crime rates, dysfunction, dissatisfaction, instability and so on down the list.

We reap what we sow. It's very simple. The punishments for what we do to ourselves as individuals and as a species is inherent.

We literally cannot escape the consequences of our actions. On any level.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

What's the alternative? We go back to a society where women are suppressed and men are guilted into following the pack so crime supposedly goes down? We are replacing one issue for another there

[HellGeist]

No. That is fallacious dichotomous binary thinking. It's not one extreme or another. You are the one saying that, not me. So please do not misconstrue what I am saying or put words in my mouth that I haven't spoken.

The solution is simply equality. True equality.

Yes, I understand that you probably (like many other feminists ) think that feminism = equality, but I and many others critical of the excesses of modern feminism do not believe that is true. However that is a separate topic I'm not going to go into because I just want to agree to disagree at this point.

Equality under the law does not mean that men and women are the same. We are very different creatures. Always have been, and always will be.

And that is perfectly fine and natural.

Men and women are functionally supposed to exist as compliments to one another. Different but equal in worth.

When either side dominates the other this creates frustration, animosity, distrust, resentment and strife.

Bottom line is that there needs to be balance and true equality under the law. No favoritism or special treatment of any kind.

[readyplayer001]

casual sex is too easy to access and a lot of people dont wanna put the time into relationships anymore. then you have others who at this point wanna stay to themselves. with the internet people are less social they feel talking to someone on line classifies as a relationship when they have never met or even kissed which to me is very odd. a myriad of things

[HighValue]

Divorce rates are down because there are less marriages. Can't get divorced when they aren't married in the first place.
Marriage rates are down because more men are aware that women can steal from them during divorce. (And no women do anything to get those laws changed so ALL women in the USA are complicit in it). The only way to prove that wrong is to get the abusive sexist divorce laws changed. I'm still waiting on that one. How many generations will it take for women to even get one single law changed to finally help men?

Anyways, it is possible to have a life long, exclusive relationship, live together, raise kids, etc. without ever getting legally married. No reason for the man to risk losing half the assets he worked for years to earn. If someone insists on marriage and won't offer to sign a prenuptial agreement it pretty much proves they are a thief trying to rip someone off. No prenup = no marriage.

[wankiam]

its the percentage of divorce compared to marriage that has dropped... yes fewer people mary but of those that do a smaller percentage of those marriages end in divorce

[HellGeist]

Bingo!

[Finchie40]

My guess is because less people are getting married these days , people have become more selfish these days and only really care about themselves , I blame a lot of it on social media brainwashing people’s heads to believe every man or female is a cheater or a whore. Sad world we live in

[Bluemax]

Many or possibly all of those things you listed are probably contributing factors.

If pressed, I would say that both a decrease in people getting married and people waiting until they are older and better trained and educated before getting married are probably the greatest contributors.

[Razp_Sorbet]

We learn from previous generations mistakes. Though my parents have been married for 25 years. I had friends who had divorced parents, half of my aunt's and uncles are divorced, Christmas in my family consists of my grandfather being in the same room as his girlfriend, his ex wife and his current wife (separated). We see what that situation does to people and we see it's not easy on them so we take our time to get married make sure the person is who we want to be with.