Should Transgender Bathrooms Exist?

[Anonymous]

In recent years a few bills have been introduced, and mostly vetoed, that would allow those who identify as transgender to use the bathroom associated with their new identity/gender as opposed to the one they were born with. Some of the bills along with organizations like OSHA, suggest rather then allowing transgendered individuals to use the women's or men's restrooms, the institution of a gender neutral restroom which would simply allow individuals, regardless of their sex or the sex they identify with, to use said bathroom.

The arguments against allowing transgender individuals using traditioanlly male and female only restrooms mainly seem to call into question safety concerns of the occupants, particularly that of women. Many women feel like not only will their safety be called into question, but the safety of children whom they must frequently escort to the bathroom. If for example, a man identifies as a woman, but has had no surgery, no outward change in appearance, and goes into the bathroom or the reverse, a woman identifying as a man, how are the occupants to know if this is just some person trying to gain access to their bathroom to do harm or someone who truly identifies as their gender. Many of both genders allege that they want to feel safe in the bathroom related to their birth sex, and they feel as though if anything, transgender individuals should have a gender neutral bathroom for use or a single occupancy bathroom. There is also the argument that having to create a new bathroom or let their current one be used is giving special or preferrential treatment were none is due. They claim, this is not a race issue (as in Jim Crow laws), this is not a disability issue where an indivudual would need a particular accomodation because of a disability they cannot change, in their minds, transgender individuals have chosen to change their gender, and therefore, essentially must deal with it and go to the bathroom of their birth sex or use their bathrooms at home or single occupancy bathrooms if available.

The arguments for allowing transgender individuals to use the bathroom of their gender choice often cite that having to or being made to use a gender neutral/single occupancy bathroom is not in league with their new identity. They shouldn't have to use an "other bathroom" which might indeed make them a target for ridicule, harrassment, and violence from the public or from co-workers. The same, they believe, is even more true of being forced to use the bathroom related to their birth sex. Walking into their birth gender bathroom whilst they look like their new sex is awkward, and they face the same problems a born male man might walking into a female restroom or a born female walking into a male restroom. In particular transgender P.O.C (people of color) are far more likely to be verbally harrassed and physically assaulted in such scenarios. In response to the idea of pedophilia somehow running rampant, many make the argument that pedophiles in their born sex identity have and will continue to be pedophiles whether transgender individuals use the identifed gender bathroom or not, because actual pedophiles have always existed and confusing or labeling pedophiles and transgendered individuals as the same thing is complete ignorance. Studies have also been done to document such claims and no evidence has been found that pedophilia has increased due to transgendered individuals being able to use their gender identified bathrooms.

_____________________________________________________________________________

So what do you think?

Are you against transgender individuals being able to use the bathroom of their new gender identity?

Do you think transgender individuals should have access to a gender neutral/single occupancy bathroom only?

Do you think transgender individuals should have to use the bathroom of their birth gender?

or do you think transgender individuals should be allowed access to the bathroom they identify with?

[DaniaMQ]

Hell no! A guy is a guy no matter how much he changes and a women is a women no matter what she changes, its fucking stupid how some people now make everything as " normal " ... Being gay is " normal " being lesbian is " normal " going out naked is " normal " being transgender is " normal " ... Yeah great! Everything is so freaking normal, thats not called freedom, thats basically called being unhealthy mentally... There's no such things as " I feel that I'm a girl but I'm trapped in a guys body " or " I feel I'm a guy but I'm trapped in a girls body " ... Yeah right 😒 , I'm not gonna respond who argues, this is my opinion, and I'm nit changing it, so if u agree good, and if you don't, then just move on

[mystique253]

Amen preach it

[OlderAndWiser]

1. A transgender person knows the problems that face them if they undergo sex reassignment surgery. They have voluntarily taken on this "burden."

2. Insisting that the will of the majority must give way to making a very small minority more comfortable is the kind of idiotic political correctness that is causing the Trump rebellion in this country. Keep pushing the majority to yield to the "rights" of the minority and you feed the political rebellion. When do the feelings of the majority get respected or taken into consideration?

[DaniaMQ]

Exactly!!👌

[TheAngryBanana]

I love this person !

you have my vote for president :)

[the_rake]

'insisting that the will of the majority must give way to making a very small minority more comfortable is idiotic political correctness'

I don't think most people would feel more comfortable, e. g. if somebody that looked like, and identified as, a man was forced to use female toilets or vice versa - if somebody that looked like, and identified as, a woman was forced to use male toilets.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake You are probably correct only if others don't know it is a transgender person. If it is a workplace, for instance, where coworkers know the history, probably neither gender wants him/her in their restroom.

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser

well, speaking quite frankly then, that is their own problem. a person that identifies and either has undergone surgery (partial or full) or made significant change to appear as a gender has the right to partake in the full role of said gender. if you are worried about sexual motif (which makes no sense because most transgenders are homosexual pre-op anyway) then you could still have a situation where a non-transgender homosexual was motivated to participate in sexually perverse ways in public restrooms. by and large, there is no real issue with allowing transgenders to utilise the facilities of their chosen gender identity.

[lolatyou]

Honestly one of the best things i've learned in life is that the majority isn't always right because people are very afraid to go against it.

Not saying that I agree or disagree with you, just putting that out there lol

[OlderAndWiser]

@lolatyou And that is why we have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights. The problem is that sometimes, liberals and sensitive types want to expand "rights" to include things like never being offended at something someone else says. Your rights guaranteed by law do not include the right to never hear anyone say something negative about you or to never be inconvenienced by the choices that you have made.

And I do understand that your post was not suggesting that about which I complained; I just felt the need to say that for the benefit of others who may project too much into your comment.

[hazoplmeught]

@OlderAndWiser for president!!!

[M_A_X]

@hazoplmeught Hey, you're that douchebag who called me an antifeminist because I talk too much. I wouldn't trust your opinion about anything, because that doesn't add up for shit

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake "a person that identifies and either has undergone surgery (partial or full) or made significant change to appear as a gender has the right to partake in the full role of said gender." That is the question and you stating it as an assumed fact does not make it a fact.

"by and large, there is no real issue with allowing transgenders to utilise the facilities of their chosen gender identity." If there were no problem, we wouldn't be having a discussion on this topic.

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser

well, when you don't take the quote out of context it is clear that what I am saying is that there is not much of a difference with somebody who identifies and looks the part of a gender and somebody who was born that way using the same bathroom. if somebody has a problem with it, most likely it is because of their misplaced conceptions of an objective morality and their own fear and prejudices that some harm could come from this person who actually belongs to their gender in essence because they have chosen to conform to those societal roles.

the only plausibly legitimate concern would be one of sexual perversion but like I said, it is likely the transgender was a pre-op homosexual and prefers the other sex anyway. besides this, there is nothing to stop predatory acts of a sexual nature from people that were already born in this gender.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake "if somebody has a problem with it, most likely it is because of their misplaced conceptions of an objective morality and their own fear and prejudices" They are wrong because. . . (drum roll) . . . because you said so. Their morality is not as good as yours so everyone else should listen to you; is that really what you are saying?

[the_rake]

no, not really.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake No objective source of morality has ever been confirmed, nor have any a priori proofs been offered to the effect that morality is anything other than subjective. What proof do you have that other people's morality is wrong?

[the_rake]

that's because my reasoning has nothing to do with morality whatsoever.

I am saying that it's not a problem for people who identify as a given gender to use the same facilities. that's because gender (as opposed to sex) are socially defined and are a choice. the problem other people have with this situation, however, seems to be based on some sort of moral reservation, "oooh I don't like it if a transgender uses my bathroom, eeeeew".

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake Why do you get to decide that it's not a problem for other people?

[the_rake]

because there is no concrete threat, at least no threat that could not already be posed by people who were already born the same gender. it is just about people's perceptions and subjective qualms.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake And their perceptions and qualms do not matter because you say so?

[the_rake]

their perceptions and qualms are subjective. they don't trump somebody's need to use the toilet.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake Cool story, bro, but in the real world, I, as a man, can't go in the women's restroom just because I really gotta piss, so that argument is meaningless.

[the_rake]

@M_A_X but you as a man don't dress or have bodyparts that have been surgically altered to look like a female therefore you, as a man, would be able to use your own restroom where as a transgender female would very much look out of place in a male restroom. telling them they are not allowed to use female restrooms is favouring people's subjective perceptions about morality over their own objective need to use a restroom where they won't stand out and be humiliated for using.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake Sorry, but that's not in line with the dismissive argument you used just before, about needing to go to the bathroom trumping people's subjective views

[M_A_X]

@the_rake A transgender person shouldn't be any more ashamed of going to a transgender bathroom than a man or woman should feel ashamed about going to a regular bathroom. You're contradicting yourself because of your own subjective views on the subject based on appearance lol

[the_rake]

@M_A_X except that not only would it be extortionate for businesses to accommodate something so ridiculous (that is not even done under the label of political correctness but sheer bigotry) just because all these idiots get the heebie jeebies about sex change but it would still be a humiliating and degrading experience to tell transgenders that they cannot use the restroom of the gender they most identify with but that they must use a restroom that could invite shaming and discrimination from bigotted members of the public who see them using it. it's equivalent to the policies of the jim crow laws during the era of racial segregation but for transgendered people.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake Sorry, but to quote Dave Chappelle on this "How much do I have to play into someone else's personal image?" and the answer is, not at all. Nobody owes these people anything to lie to them or make them feel more secure in what they think they are, anymore than anyone else. Also, if you think that it's degrading, maybe you shouldn't get an operation in the first place. You're still not a real man or woman. You're still a transexual. There's no reason to act like you were born a woman when you weren't and never will be. You're still just a man with a mutilated penis who can't get a period or have babies legitimately.

I'm just being honest here.

[the_rake]

@M_A_X tolerating is one thing, not discriminating is another. you might not think somebody's personal choices or preferences are the best in the world but they are entitled to them as long as they are not hurting anybody else. this seclusion/segregation policy of transgendered people is most definitely hurting their need to perform basic bodily functions and is therefore a discriminatory behaviour.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake It's not hurting their need to go to the bathroom if they have their own bathroom.

There's also a major difference between tolerating something and accepting it. I recommend you watch you some south park, sir. You tolerate a crying baby on a plane, it can still piss you off and make you uncomfortable.

This is also not discrimination. They're being treated like any other gender. They get their own bathroom. Transgender is it's own gender. Hence why it gets it's own word

[the_rake]

'You're still not a real man or woman. '

You aren't distinguishing between sex (biological) and gender (social). The gender roles we perform are the ones we identify with the most and therefore choose. Transgenders identify most with their post-operation gender and therefore - in terms of gender at least - belong to that gender which they have chosen to identify with.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake Bathrooms are separated by gender. It's not discrimination to have a men's room and a women's room. It's also not discrimination to have a transgender bathroom, HOWEVER, expecting them to be able to use the other two is just pandering.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake Alright then, fine. Bathrooms are separated by SEX. It's not discrimination to have a men's room and a women's room. It's not discrimination to have a tranSEXUAL bathroom, HOWEVER, expecting them to be able to use the other two is just pandering

This is also not discrimination. They're being treated like any other SEX. They get their own bathroom. TransSEXUAL is it's own SEX. Hence why it gets it's own word

Feel better?

[the_rake]

@M_A_X

who says that bathrooms are separated by sex and not gender? bathrooms are there to fulfill basic bodily functions. if people need to do this in an environment where they won't be discriminated against, what the hell is wrong with that?

@M_A_X it's certainly hurting their need to walk home without being spat at, verbally abused and maybe even physically assaulted. but even that is a devil's advocate argument. they identify most with their chosen gender role, therefore that is gender (as socially defined). they should be allowed to go about normal everyday actions belonging to said gender role, just like everybody else who (chooses) to identify with said gender role does.

' I recommend you watch you some south park, sir.'

Just lol how you reference a comedy episode that had gay guys sexually abusing children by inserting things into their anus as a devil's advocate argument against liberal tolerance and political correctness. Just lol.

[the_rake]

'You tolerate a crying baby on a plane, it can still piss you off and make you uncomfortable'

You don't tell the parents they have to sit some place else.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake If planes were separated by how annoying people were, you definitely would

[the_rake]

@M_A_X I think most people would justifiably feel discriminated against if you determined them 'annoying' based on factors they can't control (e. g. their baby keeps on crying, they look 'ugly' or they have ginger hair) especially if they had to pay extra to ride the 'annoying plane'.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake You don't have to pay extra to ride in the annoying part of the plane just like you don't suddenly have to pay to use a transgender bathroom. There won't be a man outside the transgender room blocking people until they pay up. The only people who have to pay are the airlines and corporations to make a 3rd set of bathrooms and an annoying section

Also, anyone who gets offended by the fact that their baby is loud is a douche. They might not be able to help it (which differs from transgenders because they can, but you can also argue they made the decision to get surgery just like the other person made the decision to have a baby), but if they can't accept it, than I'd say that's their problem and not anyone else's, since again, it's their decision that got them there.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake That's funny because now it sounds like you have an issue with ugly people and gingers. Ugly people and gingers can't help it. It was through no decision of their own that they're ugly or ginger, and also looks have little, to nothing, to do with whether or not someone is annoying.

[the_rake]

@M_A_X I disagree but ok, whatever. How do you respond to the argument I posted earlier:

'it's certainly hurting [transgendered people's] need to walk home without being spat at, verbally abused and maybe even physically assaulted. '

i. e. that is if somebody who was a bigot or homophobe saw somebody walking into a transgendered restroom. or if people actually congregated outside transgendered restrooms waiting for people to walk in or out. how do you think such a policy would affect them under such circumstances?

[M_A_X]

@the_rake There are plenty of people in the world who can't hide their flaws and pretend they're normal. Fat people get picked on for being fat, and everyone can see they're fat. Black people get openly mocked and hated on by racists. Don't see a lot of black people trying to be like Michael Jackson.

They can honestly get the fuck over it and realize everyone gets made fun of if they're different. They choose to be fat, they choose to be transgender. Black people don't get to choose to be black. People who do those things would be labeled as committing a hate crime, but there's no need to try to prevent it from happening before it happens. You're trying to be overly protective and overly PC and pandering. That's 3 Ps. You're supposed to mind your P's and Q's, not let them run wild, m8

[OlderAndWiser]

@M_A_X @the_rake In this situation, my girlfriend goes to the ladies room and I see someone (who we both know is transgender) going into the ladies' room. If I tell the transgender that they can't go in there, it will "hurt it's feelings." If it goes in there, my girlfriend will feel very uncomfortable. Why must her feelings and my feelings yield to the feelings of the transgender? Is it because the politically correct think that our feelings are stupid? Well, we think anyone doing the transgender routine is stupid and, ultimately, no feelings can be defended as "more correct" because feelings are not logical. My girlfriend is a part of the majority and she has done nothing to cause this conflict; the transgender is a minority and has caused the conflict by having their stupid transgender procedures. We must submit to the transgenders and the social justice warriors who want to feel like a knight on a white horse coming to the aid of a "damsel" in distress?

This fuels Trump's fire!

[the_rake]

So basically you'd be fine with transgenders being spat at walking home and maybe even physically assaulted because they choose to have surgery done because they were not comfortable with the gender they were both as and made them feel physically and psychologically sick. Cool, just wanted to clear that up.

By the way, you're right, I'm sure Trump would did many things to agree with.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake "So basically you'd be fine with transgenders being spat at walking home and maybe even physically assaulted because they choose to have surgery done." No, not at all. That's just something that you made up so you could criticize me.

[the_rake]

Read the comment interchange with M_A_X: that comment was not directed at you.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake Well I'm just going to say the exact same thing he did, so I don't know why you think I'd be an easier target for your vitriolic dismissive attitudes, putting words in other people's mouths and assuming the worst so you can feel better about yourself

[the_rake]

@M_A_X well when I asked the question assume you replied that was the only thing I could drive from your sentiment - that you would prefer they were subject to verbal and physical assault than that your girlfriend was made to feel uncomfortable. If you would like to clarify, then please enlighten me.

[M_A_X]

@the_rake Yeah, you're starting to sound like kind of a dick, buddy. "IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THIS GUN LAW YOU MUST WANT PEOPLE TO GET FUCKING SHOT" is not an accurate assessment. I'm starting to question your level of intelligence, and logic skills here. There's more to the situation at hand, but you only come off as a dick the way you're acting now.

[the_rake]

well yes, it is important to accept the full and logical conclusions of any policies you support. even if you wouldn't be one of the thugs congregating outside transgendered toilets you can be pretty sure it would happen.

In any case, I asked a pretty clear question, I asked

'how do you think such a policy would affect [transgendered people] under such circumstances [bigots and homophobes congregating outside transgendered restrooms]?'

you evaded answering the question directly and instead resorted to a response of nonchalance:

'Why must [my girlfriend's] feelings and my feelings yield to the feelings of the transgender?'

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake You said to @M_A_X "you evaded answering the question directly and instead resorted to a response of nonchalance: 'Why must [my girlfriend's] feelings and my feelings yield to the feelings of the transgender?'

Actually, I am the one who asked that question, and you never responded. Everything that you say assumes that the feelings of the transgender must be respected more than the feelings of anyone else. If that is what you want to do in your life, that's fine; I don't care. But tell me why I must be more concerned about the feelings of some person who intentionally and knowingly put themselves in limbo and less concerned about my girlfriend's feelings.

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser

please read the full context before posting. as for the feelings about the transgender, it is not about their feelings so much as the fact they have an objective need to perform bodily functions in a non-discriminatory environment.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake I see. They can't piss anywhere that you deem to be discriminatory.

[the_rake]

gender roles are defined by society. one's gender is determined by the roles they identify with. telling somebody that they cannot go about the everyday functions of their identified gender is discriminatory.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake "gender roles are defined by society. one's gender is determined by the roles they identify with. telling somebody that they cannot go about the everyday functions of their identified gender is discriminatory." You're just stringing together a bunch of sentences that you learned in college.

You have said the same thing many times but most of us don't accept it. You can try saying it again but it probably won't change anyone's opinion. Personally, I think you are a heterophobe.

@M_A_X

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser well I would have a hard time being a heterophobe since I am heterosexual myself. typical bigotted thinking though that if one is not a bigot like themselves then one must be self-hating.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake It is not difficult to hate one's self. The basis of far left politics is that all Americans should hate America. Self-hate is quite common in this society. But, perhaps you are not a heterophobe (that was tongue-in-cheek humor that you missed) but simply a social justice warrior who needs a cause to rescue someone and thereby feed your own ego.

[the_rake]

well I'm not American but if by 'hate', you mean make into a better, more diversified, tolerant and egalitarian society, then sure: there's probably a lot of left wingers that 'hate' America. Or at least, they hate the republicans that want to destroy their country with corporate greed and invading other countries they have no right to be in.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake What a WONDERFUL person you are! The rest of us should be ashamed of ourselves! Thanks for pointing this out to us.

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser

that's ok. I am always happy to spread around the merits of my enlightened philosophy.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake And no one is more enlightened than someone your age!

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser

Yes I know, you could call me YoungerAndWiser.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake Do you think you will get less wife as you get older?

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser

No, I will continue to expand in my infinite wisdom like the universe.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake As I have done. . . with a 37 year head start on you!

[M_A_X]

@the_rake If you think having separate bathrooms is discrimination, then don't separate men and women into different bathrooms in the first place. There is a REASON we have separate bathrooms and it's got fuckall to do with discrimination.

If someone is going to stand outside of a trans bathroom and beat people up, they need to be in jail for a hatecrime anyway, and then the problem is solved. As much as they want to be, transgender people are NOT women/men. They are still what they were born as, but now with deformed genitals and opposite gendered clothes.

Do you advocate people not crossing the street because some of them MIGHT get hit by a car? No. Like OlderAndWiser said, you're just repeating stuff you've heard in some college class, with a silly professor who didn't have anybody to debate with, and therefore, you've been brainwashed via propaganda.

[the_rake]

@OlderAndWiser

but my brain cells also grow by photosynthesis, so this is an advantage you do not have.

[the_rake]

@M_A_X Well that's not a very good example, because men and women are unlikely to be discriminated for using the toilets that they identify with (as part of their gender, which has been defined). A good example of discrimination via segregation would be the Jim Crow Laws which placed black people into different toilets as white people. They were treated as low class citizens who needed to be seperated from everyone else. In short it is the spirit within which these things are done or the underlying sentiment. I believe that the underlying sentiment of this transgendered policy is discrimination.

Prosecuting people for hatecrime does not necessarily prevent them from doing this kind of thing. If it did, then there would never be race riots, hooliganism or a bunch of other stuff. In fact, it's very difficult to prosecute individuals in a crowd like that.

[OlderAndWiser]

@the_rake Every time liberals don't like something that conservatives sy or do, they eventually pull out a reference to the Jim Crow laws, as if this MUST be the same thing and therefore we must be just as bigoted as the people who supported those laws. I guess every liberal in the country must have been required to go to the seminar where they taught that trick.

The problem is that I call bullshit. It's not the same thing. It is much more like @M_A_X said, men and women have different restrooms and that is not discrimination. According to your theory, a guy who "thinks" he is a female should be allowed to use the ladies room because "that is his gender." Is that your position?

[the_rake]

A woman who identifies as a female because that is her gender as socially defined... Yes.

And sorry, I don't really remember being indoctrinated. I have my own ideas some of them liberal, some of them conservative. Besides, that is a very American centred definition of ideology.

[dartmaul15]

oh for fucks sake. This pussyfication of the entire society isn't doing anything good. Life sucks sometimes, accept that, move on. Sometimes you can't get it exactly your goddamn way. You can't expect the world to adapt to the special snowflakes! To make the world operate smoothly you need to make compromises.

If you're a dude you go in the men's room. no matter if you think you're male, female, or godzilla for all i care. And if you're a woman you go in the women's room. For those undergoing sex change, well, obviously they should go in the room for their current sex. For those that FEEL transexual, well sorry, but we go by physical attributes.

The ONLY problem here is intersexuality. But we don't hear them moaning or bitching. Even if they're the ones ACUTALLY having a problem here.

I tihnk the notion that to cater to 0.3% of the population is absurd! And here's the clue, "transgender" can go BOTH ways. What's next? A bathroom for gays? Lesbians? Mentally underdeveloped? I identify as a fucking unicorn, i need a special bathroom! We male, female, and handicapped toilets. The ONLY reason you have the later is to overcome physical limitations of being handicapped. We don't need more.

Or... we can simply say "fuck you all" and make bathrooms completely unisex. ALL of them.

And to those claiming transgenderism is a mentall ilness; your suggestions are just as bad as the ones we had back in the day. You know, lobotomizing people and all that. I'm perfectly o with you having differet opions, but your methods are just extreme and show an utter inability to see things from different perspectives. Also it IS pssible to be intersexual (which is afaik what this damn debate should be about). What's your stance on that?

[CoolSky01]

true

[dartmaul15]

@CoolSky01 well someone need to tell stuff straight. And thank god we can't thumb down anymore, i'd go so deep in the negatives XD

[CoolSky01]

if people are dumb doesn't mean we have to be dumb as well, apperantly everyone these days is offended and a pussy, special bathrooms? are they serious

[Leavesbound]

I have a better idea. Just have single user public restrooms and do away with communal restrooms altogether. Let's say you have limited space and so you have men's restroom with one stall and a urinal and one lady's room with two stalls. In the men's room the stall has to be handicap accessible and must have it's own sink so you you have two fixtures and two sinks. In the ladies room you have a stall with a sink so again you have two fixtures and two sinks. There is no place to add a transgender restroom. Most of the time there is nobody in the men's room and when there is most of the time its only one person. Same in the lady's room. But sometimes there's three guys waiting in line to use the stall since there is only one. So how about this. Tear out the two double restrooms and rebuild them so there are four individual unisex one stall handicap restrooms. Each has it's own toilet and each is non gender specific. There isn't toing to be more than one at a time in any of them anyways unless it's a couple of kids and they shouldn't be alone in a restroom with strangers anyways. Problem solved. Anyone can use any available restroom and nobody is uncomfortable and this solves most of the problems with lines. This way nobody can ever say anyone is in the wrong rest room. The only issue is in larger restrooms where they have a bunch of urinals packed closely together and there is only one sink for every other fixture but the only time I have seen one of those full is at the movie theater when the crowd is let out of a movie and only a couple of times. Guys don't take long pissing so this should not be a huge problem.

[meowcow]

The issue I have with your last photo is that the woman (who looks like a man) is probably a fake photo with a made up caption.

In most cases, women who transition to a man undergo extremely invasive and unnatural forms of surgery. Implanting a dick on themselves, getting pumped full of testosterone to grow facial hair and muscles... etc. Or the opposite... getting estrogen injections and being implanted with breasts and a vagina or other surgery (facial reduction... etc).

To me, that is completely unnatural and very very very fucked up. And now transgender proponents want a man... born with a penis... who either underwent surgery or who "thinks" they are a girl... to use the bathroom with little girls? That's messed up.

I also fail to see why the location of where you take a piss and shit in public are so important. These people probably used a particular gendered bathroom their entire life. It's what they are accustomed to. A man who "thinks" he is a woman still has a dick, and pees standing up. The only time he makes it awkward and uncomfortable is when this man dresses up like a woman in a dress, and then goes peeing in public by lifting his dress.

[Alohaloli]

Neutral bathrooms exist already they tend to be a single room private do like when my dad took care of his mother on vacation he didn't have to go in a women's and she didn't have to go in a men's bathroom. I wish people would just use those bathrooms but they won't. I personally don't like using locker rooms with children even little girls seeing my naked body it feels wrong undressing around them. So I use a stall. I wish people had more respect and modesty around others. And I hate to explain to a kid that this is a man in the women's room we know that but he feels he is a woman. I won't tell my child or a child that this is a straight up natural woman. Because their sense of who they are doesn't change my reality. It hasn't changed reality. This person wanted to be a woman so badly he has his wiener cut off and got surgery to make him have boobs but they aren't ever Gonna be real just like the ladies that get boob jobs they have bags if saline to make them seem bigger. People go to extreme measures and a lot of pain to look how they want to look. So be nice and know the truth but play their little game cause it makes them feel good and we don't ever want to hurt anyone. We are all just living our lives. We only have one. And if that makes them make the most of their life let them do it peacefully. But know that there are people who do this so you don't ever date a guy who used to be a woman. They don't always tell. So more than ever know someone before you get too close.

[bluenose1872]

No they shouldn't. A guy going into a woman's bathroom. That's fucked up. End up with perverts dressing up as women to sneak a peak. There's too much liberty in this mad world. Standards we've built up for centuries are just being stripped away by idiots with too much time on their hands and a penchant for sticking their nose in where it's not wanted. Previous generations had to strive to achieve a standard and it made them strong, resilient people. Nowadays people are just pathetic bastards that want the rules changed to suit them. Remember the analogy about the butterfly escaping it's cocoon and how it's struggle makes it strong for its life ahead? You could free it and make it easy but it would be too weak to survive. Life's supposed to be brutal. I struggled every day since I was a kid. Got no help or understanding from anyone. You complained and you got it worse. I'm still here, got the scars to prove it. I'm glad of the struggle. I got wisdom and strength from it. When I talk people listen. Men and women respect me and look to me for advice and leadership. If all my obstacles were flattened for me I'd be a pathetic person. Weak and inconsequential. Life may seem brutal for some people but through their struggle they're drawing strength that no one else will get. My point is some prejudices and conflicts should be left alone. They create a power gradient where strong people who are beneficial to our race are developed

[Anonymous]

The bathroom thing is so stupid and completely unenforceable. What are they gonna do? Post a guard at every bathroom who demands to see ID? What if someone doesn't have any ID? Are they not allowed to pee? And even seeing someone's ID doesn't always tell you if they are trans because guess what? We can change our names and the gender markers on our IDs.
If they passed a bill tomorrow saying I had to use the women's bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, etc, I would still go into the men's. How are they gonna know unless they ask? And if they do ask and I say I'm not trans, are they gonna take it any further? Are they gonna doubt me? Are they gonna demand proof? No.
Trans people have been using the same bathrooms as you forever. I can almost guarantee you that you have met, or seen, or walked past a trans person and had no idea. And there has never been a problem because of it.
If all of a sudden there was a "trans bathroom", I would not use it because no one is entitled to know I'm trans, and using that bathroom would out me and make life more dangerous for me.
Neutral bathrooms would be great though. Many people don't feel comfortable using either the women's or the men's for any number of reasons, and neutral bathrooms would fix that.

[Anonymous]

I don't care much.

Here's one thing:
When we called them 'mens' and 'womens' bathrooms, we were actually just being polite. We actually meant 'bathroom if you have a penis' and 'bathroom if you have a vagina'. We were just too delicate to write 'dicks' and 'pussies' on the doors. That's why one bathroom has urinals and the other bathroom doesn't. So perhaps we should replace all the signs saying 'mens' and 'ladies' with 'penises' and 'vaginas'. Then you know, whatever your gender, we don't care, if you stand to pee, use the door on the left.

But here's the other point:
our single sex changerooms etc are basically a relic of a time when -everyone- was presumed to be cis and hetero. If there's a reason to separate boys and girls, then there's a reason to separate anyone gay from anyone of their own sex (not saying gay guys are perving on straight guys, it's bidrectional... maybe a 12 year old gay guy doesn't actually want to pull his dick out in front of a bunch of naked guys any more than a 12 year old straight girl wants to strip in front of them).

We're too uptight to just have open changerooms here, though it would be one solution (and maybe in Europe that will fly).

So i see us moving to just having 'bathrooms' with stalls and no urinals, and changerooms with little booths.

I lived in a residence in university that had originally been single sex, and they changed to co-ed. The bathrooms were like that - all stalls, no urinals, co ed bathroom (and showers, same idea). It was not a big deal.

[notallthere98]

Trans man here: I don't think there should be trans bathrooms. That would immediately out us, and most of us pass as the gender we identify as just fine. I've been using the men's bathroom for years, even when I need to change a tampon or pad, and no one has ever known they were sharing a bathroom with a transguy. Literally all we want is to pee or poop in peace. The few times I've used a woman's bathroom instead (if there were a lot of guys in the men's room and I didn't feel safe) I've just confused the women in the bathroom. Most of them actually double check they didn't enter the men's room. Just let us use the bathrooms we are comfortable using

[QuestionMan]

Let's dispel the fiction that transgenderism should be accepted. It is a mental illness and must be treated as such. It's time we shut down clinics that perform sex change operations and hold those that have performed them legally responsible for the mutilation of people's bodies.
Those who already had the sex change need to be put in mental institutions. There they can use any washroom they want.

[lolatyou]

A lot of mental illnesses are accepted, you can't just throw someone into an institution like they're disposable just because they have a mental problem. You're dismissing them like they're trash, over something they have no control over.

Also the mental institutions that i'm had contact with (not because of my own issues lol) only doped people up, let them color pictures with crayons all day long and had group sessions which didn't even begin to touch on those really deep issues.

[ThatNiceGuy]

It is considered a mental ilness but not one that stops a person from working and living a decent life. They are also not a threat to society so there's no reason to lock them up. Transgender people are born with a biological difficulty that will torture them for life unless they receive our support. At the moment many transgender people undergo surgeries and hormone treatments that allow them to live happier lives, you should accept that and avoid harassing them by posting things like this.

[cipher42]

I'm sorry, but in what universe does your personal (probably underqualified) opinion on an issue count for more than the consensus of most major psychological associations?

@lolatyou @thatniceguy: Being transgender is not considered a mental illness. Gender dysphoria is, but not all trans people are dysphoric. Furthermore, the way gender dysphoria is treated is via hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery.

[lolatyou]

I think it's a form of mental illness, meaning I think that there are other aspects that cause it or contribute to it. I'm not under the impression that the term transgender is a mental illness in itself.

I honestly don't care what people who have it choose to do with their lives. And I don't even know for a fact if it is always related to a mental illness or not. The only thing I think, is that before you start getting plastic surgery or altering your body to that degree, that you should definitely seek out help first. And if after that- they still want to continue on or if that's not helping then, then I don't see why that should be an issue for anyone.

People keep saying that it's a mental illness but what if it's not treatable, what if they live their entire lives and therapy doesn't help. Are they supposed to just live being miserable.

[gaaxure]

@lolatyou "You can't just throw someone into an institution" You shouldn't tailor world around their whacked out beliefs and needs either.

[lolatyou]

@gaaxure Their "wacked out" beliefs of living their life how and by what sex they choose to do so. Yeah those are some really fucked up beliefs. How dare they live their own lives how they see fit. The nerve...

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 @lolatyou
Let me just clarify by saying that just because they are mentally ill does not mean we should subject them to poor treatment. They need our help and I feel sorry for them. Our society's blind acceptance without a shred of evidence to point to it being a biological defect is lunacy.
I have done my fair share of research on the stances of both sides of the debate and I'm inclined to be on the side of helping people get better rather then enabling their delusion.
Transgenderism or Gender Identity Disorder is a real thing. Just because it was renamed to Gender Dysphoria Disorder doesn't change what it is.
They also have other mental disorders such as Body Integrity Disorder. Their lives usually only get worse after the operation with many committing suicide since an overwhelming majority see them as an abomination.
www.theguardian.com/.../health.mentalhealth

Simply look at the countless GAG polls on the matter.
www.girlsaskguys.com/search?q=date+a+transgender

[lolatyou]

I understand and even agree with you to a certain extent. But at the same time making remarks like "There they can use any washroom they want." is rude.

Mental hospitals are also a terrible place for people to seek treatment.

Also like I said before, people kind of went from not accepting it to accepting it now and I don't think anyone took the time to suggest therapy or other treatments for it first. And at what point if therapy is not working, do they decide to do what makes them more comfortable. It's just a difficult situation all around.

[QuestionMan]

@lolatyou We definitely need to reform our mental health system. In the US alone mental health is a huge issue when it comes to school shootings. Now I'm not equating the 2 of course not but it still shows that people have problems and something needs to be done.
It's a huge problem that people see therapy as pseudoscience instead of the real benefit it can have on people. The reason transgenderism went from condemned to somewhat accepted is because people don't want to spend money or even talk about mental health.
In the case of homosexuality, it was considered a mental illness until a massive riot forced the APA to change their stance. Only recently has some research pointed to it being a biological defect and not a mental one.
We as a society need to take mental illness seriously. A reformed mental hospital can help people rehabilitate. While under the care of professionals I see no reason why patients couldn't use whichever washroom they choose. It can be part of the treatment.

[cipher42]

You don't seem to have actually properly looked into the subject. Yes, gender dysphoria is a thing. No, it is not the same thing as being transgender. Not all trans people have dysphoria. Dysphoria is specifically the discomfort associated with being unable to present/be viewed as the gender you identify as.

Being trans is not a mental disorder. It is associated with mental disorders for various reasons, but it in and of itself is not a mental disorder.

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 Have you read the definition?
www.psychologytoday.com/.../gender-dysphoria

[cipher42]

Did you? Specifically that the definition species that gender dysphoria is a condition "That results in significant distress or impairment"? If said significant distress or impairment is not there, that doesn't mean the person isn't trans. A person can be perfectly happy and well adjusted and trans, in which case they have no mental disorder but are still transgender.

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 You don't have to be stressed out to be mentally ill. You can think that you are perfectly fine and that everything around you is wrong.
psychcentral.com/.../

[cipher42]

Where did I say that? I said well adjusted, which does not in fact mean merely believing that you are fine, but rather actually being fine. Don't make arguments I've already countered. According to the APA, "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder." https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

Happy now?

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 Here's another more accurate definition

A mental disorder is a mental or behavioural pattern or anomaly that causes either suffering or an impaired ability to function in ordinary life (disability), and which is not developmentally or socially normative.

Mental disorders are generally defined by a combination of how a person feels, acts, thinks or perceives. This may be associated with particular regions or functions of the brain or rest of the nervous system, often in a social context.

www.dhsspsni.gov.uk/.../mental-health-and

[TheOldMan59]

Mental institutions, as you call them, are for treatment, not for keeping embarassing individuals locked away.

[QuestionMan]

@TheOldMan59 If you read my comments below, you would see that I want them to be treated not locked away.

[TheOldMan59]

Then I agree. Although I believe in some cases surgery can have a good outcome and isn't undertaken lightly.

[cipher42]

@QuestionMan: the definition my source uses comes straight from the DSM. Yours doesn't. According to the DSM, "It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dys- phoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition." are we done here yet? The DSM is the most current major classification of psychological conditions in the world, and the most widely used in the U. S. Trying to counter what it says with what some British health website is is ridiculous.

[QuestionMan]

@TheOldMan59 I believe we should focus on rehabilitation and not acceptance since that statistically does far more harm then good, both to the individual and to society.

[cipher42]

According to who? You? Because major psychological associations have already weighed in on this and said that acceptance is in fact the way to go here, so your personal opinion really doesn't mean much.

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 Try applying your logic elsewhere and see how it works.
Someone breaks their leg in a skiing accident, that's fine we're not going to fix we're just going to accept it. Someone has cancer, we're not going to give them any pills or chemo. No we're just going to accept it.

[cipher42]

False analogy. Breaking a leg and having cancer are actually physically debilitating for objective reasons. It's not a matter of society making it hard for those people. And in those cases, the experts in the fields relevant to those kinds of injuries or diseases actually do agree that they should be treated and fought against. Seriously, how can you even begin to think that comparison makes any sense at all? Being transgender literally does no harm at all to a person provided society is accepting about it.

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 But here's the thing, society won't accept it.
You can look at the countless GAG poll on the subject, almost no one wants to even date a trans person.
www.girlsaskguys.com/search?q=date+a+transgender

They can't have kids and defy the biological norms that all other human beings follow.
Where I'm standing, if a minority does something that is considered crazy by the majority then perhaps it is. That's why I gave you the British definition which by the way is from a government website.

[cipher42]

That's not the argument you were just making. You just said that you didn't think it SHOULD even be accepted.

And the fact is that there have been societies and even now are areas where transgender people are in fact accepted. Yeah, no shit it's currently not accepted in our society, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Should homosexuality still be classified as a mental illness and stigmatized? Should we still have segregation? Should women still be considered crazy if they want to be actually independent and powerful? I sure fucking hope not. The argument that society currently is this way and therefore it should continue to be that way is a completely fucking idiotic one, and one which, if it had prevailed in the past, would have made society today a completely awful place.

So yes, society still is shitty toward trans people, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't change. It should, and in fact it has recently been moving toward becoming more accepting.

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 The examples you brought up going against the egalitarian values I stand by.
As for homosexuality, I've recently come to the conclusion that it's a biological disorder not a mental one and since we don't know enough about what causes it, it would be best to study in a laboratory environment. Plus gays don't go around choping of their dicks. They are consenting adults and should be left to do whatever they wish in the privacy of the bedroom as long as they don't go around yelling that their proud of being gay.

It's easy to say we should accept them, but would you have sex with a trans?
A woman with a fake penis claiming to be male.

Honestly, this is purely a first world problem. You don't see this anywhere else. We ran out of social issues so we invented one.

If an individual is raised right and not exposed to any information about gender identity then they will remain normal.

[cipher42]

Everything you're saying demonstrates a very clear and very deep ignorance of the actual issues. Again, why on earth do you think your expertise is somehow more important than that of actual experts on the topic? How can any person be this incredibly narcissistic?

And my point about gay people is that homosexuality also used to be classified as a mental illness. Seriously, can you maybe make SOME effort to actually understand what's being argued?

Who I would or would not have sex with is none of your damn business, nor does it have any impact on the validity of someone's identity, so you can fuck right off with that line of argument.

Do you have a source for the idea that it's a first world problem? Because if you actually knew shit about history or of other cultures, you'd be well aware that being transgender is far from a modern or first world phenomenon.

Basically everything you just said was a load of completely unsubstantiated horseshit.

[QuestionMan]

@cipher42 Ah typical ad hominence from a liberal faced with a view she doesn't like.
I may not sit in a lab all day studying crazy people but that's what having access to others research is for. As for homosexuality, do you have any idea what got it declassified as a mental illness? It was a riot. One that forced the APA without a shred of evidence to write them off. Eventually scientists have found that a chemical imbalance may lead to non-heterosexual identities. The exact nature of these imbalances and what causes them is still being researched.

Whether or not you are willing to have sex with a trans person says a lot about your position. You can't claim to defend them and not want to sleep with them since by your logic, a female to male is a male so you should have no problem sleeping with one.

By purposely dodging you show your true colours. YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE

Look at Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa. They don't have these people. They're an invention of Western media.

[lolatyou]

Man if we all had to have sex with the things we tolerated...

[TadCurious]

Let's start by saying what is obvious: "Transgender" people are people who have a psychiatric disorder known as "gender identity disorder" or "gender dysphoria." They deserve compassion and treatment. We shouldn't be celebrating their disorder. The idea that we as a society should turn upside down all of our social mores and customs when it comes to restroom/locker room usage for this very tiny number of people is just the product of Political Correctness run amok. So males who believe (because of their disorder) that they are females should still use the male restroom. Because they are males. Every cell in their body has a Y chromosome.

[BlueCoyote]

Homosexuality was also considered a mental illness until 25 years ago. What you're arguing for is basically just plain discrimination and I don't see why anyone would be proud of that. Saying "The idea that we as a society should turn upside down all of our social mores and customs for a minority" is incredibly condescending. The exact same thing could be said about gay people, disabled people, black people, elderly people, pregnant women or literally any other minority.

[Queen_KZ]

I don't want guys i, the bathroom with me. The part of having sperate bathrooms is that they're separate. We should have male, female, and neutral bathrooms. Not nessicarly for transgender but for people who don't care. They won't stand out as much this way. Also if you look like a girl and go in the girls bathroom there's not much we can do about but because there are stalls the chances of us knowing are a little lower in which case I'd say get in and get out cuz dispute how you look you're still a guy and I wouldn't feel comfortable chilling in a bathroom next to a guy. If we let it happen, there is no doubt that people would try to take advantage of it and I mean creeps. The chances of rape would go up since all a guy would have to say is "no, I'm a girl" and he'd be let loose to do what ever in a place he has no business being and we would know far too late.

[BaileyisDarcy]

Didn't read this through properly but I got the gist of it.

My response?

Unisex bathrooms are a thing!

If you don't have the parts for the women's bathroom then don't use it. If you don't have the parts for the men's bathroom then don't use it.
I don't care how you identify, this isn't for your comfort this is for the people using those bathrooms.

There are way too many problems that come up from allowing transgender people before transition to use whatever bathroom they like. For one, you don't know that the person really is trans and not just a pervert.

If you don't have the bits then find a different bathroom.

Unisex toilets are a thing. Use those.

I do support trans rights. I am an ally, but I will side with making sure the majority is comfortable rather than making them all uncomfortable so a spare few will be happy.

[notallthere98]

I know they are real but I have literally never seen a unisex bathroom ever. Believe me, if I'm a the mall and I need to shit, I will use the bathroom of the gender I identify as

[BaileyisDarcy]

@notallthere98

This mytake is old as fuck.

This comment is old as fuck.

I dont give a fuck about your reply, and this question will answer why.

Why the fuck, did you drag me back to this old as piss comment?

[notallthere98]

Wow. If it was really so inconvenient you didn't have to reply. The take was still open, so I read it and wanted to see what people thought. Sorry if replying to a comment was somehow a grand inconvenience to you

[BaileyisDarcy]

@notallthere98

Eh, i was already pissed off when you commented,

Anyway, to answer your non question on where unisex toilets are, disability toilets DO exist, you DO have them wherever you are, and they ARE unisex toilets. You use them.

Which honestly id call a blessing, i love those toilets. I just dont use them unless im desperate and the womens is full.

[notallthere98]

The disability toilets where I live aren't separate bathrooms. They just have disability stalls in the men's and women's room. So those aren't really an option. I'd definitely use them if they were

[ladsin]

Honestly I'm a little torn on this.
One of my ex-best friends was trans and that made me have a much greater understanding and respect for trans people. I believe that it is unfair to not allow trans people to not use the bathroom of their gender. (They don't choose it)
However, despite my knowledge about the statistics I still understand the fear that the opponents have.
I think that it might be best to have only unisex bathrooms. These bathrooms would provide better security (privacy) than most bathrooms currently have. I feel that that would placate all people.
But who knows

[REALisRARE]

The only way to solve this if we must prevent someone from being butt hurt is to make a separate whoever bathroom. Problem solved. Transgender/people who don't care can use the bathroom and the transgenders can feel safe or whatever it is that they need to feel while also keeping men and women and more importantly: children safe. I do not want any man coming into the bathroom with my children, before all the males get mad, I'm not saying that only men can be perverts or dangerous or whatever but I am saying that men are often times stronger than women and especially children and that's not a situation that we should put children in.

[RationalMale]

So at the same time we're going on about safe spaces, or how staring is a sexual assault, we're making it so men can say they are women and use women's restrooms and locker rooms?

This is literal insanity. And the vast majority of "transgender" people are male to female already.

[baepink]

To me it doesn't matter if you think your female I would feel threatened to share a bathroom with a male but also because its been that way my whole life as very unproper so dont judge me if I think its strange. You can't just wake up and decide you want to be female and think you should be able to share bathroom with the girls when you are born in a male body. I wouldn't make a big deal to anyone but I dont think its right. I don't know I freel bad for what they have to go through if I had a gay son I would still love and care for him thats my baby.

[Tarvold]

This picture is so bullshit.

Like... seriously, if a person looked like that walked into a guy's bathroom, went to one of the stalls, closed the door, did what he had to do, and then washed his hands and left, nobody would say shit. Guys aren't going to complain about that. Hell, girls are known to come into the male bathrooms in clubs when the queue for the female bathrooms get too long.

Transgender people do have legitimate concerns that we need to consider, but blowing up bullshit like this is just wasting everyone's time.

[Anonymous]

Okay well honestly i think there should be just for there safety and for those that feel uncomfortable around it. My personal opinions about trans people aside they do deserve safety there are some cruel people in this world and they do not need to risk it on the off chance someone doesn't agree with them and try's to hurt them. On a different note I feel that trans is a mental issue and that we as a society are so set on change and wanting something to fight for that we are willing to accept anything. I know that may not be a popular opinion but i have my right to it.

[Anonymous]

I think the answer depends on how much transgender people are willing to compromise their sexual identity and social norms. If they are willing to live with the gender that the people around them treat them as even though they don't regard themselves as such, then they should enter the restroom that matches their assigned gender, which usually correlates strongly with their anatomy. However, if they are very resistant to the idea of making compromises, then I suppose they may ask for a gender-neutral public bathroom installed next to a standard male and standard female bathrooms.

[AdamThomas]

Okay so I look like a man, dress like a man, I'm quite muscular, and I like women, but that's just because I was assigned male at birth by some oppressive patriarchal shitlord. I'm actually a woman trapped in a man's body, and you have to believe me because I say so. So let me in your women's toilets or you're a bigot.

[Prof_Don]

... you mean "transgender bathroom", the third bathroom. :-P