Some things you may not know about Transgenderism!

[goaded]

During a recent conversation on here, I was pointed to some resources about transgenderism that I found very interesting. I thought I'd share my understanding of what they say.

Typical male and female brains have physically different structures.

A brain.

These two studies identified physical differences between how men's and women's brains are structured on average. The first paper's authors, at least, are very careful to point out that it does not mean that either one is better than the other, just that they are different.

How men's and women's brains are different

Males and females differ in specific brain structures

That doesn't mean that there are two types of brain

There are many differences between the brain types, and just because some features are more pronounced in more men than in women, that doesn't mean you can sort them into two categories.

To make an analogy, it would be like trying to distinguish between men and women based on a person's strength. Yes, the strongest man will be stronger than the strongest woman, and the average man will be stronger than the average woman, but trying to draw a line like "men can lift over 100kg, women can't" is doomed to failure. It's even harder to draw a line if there are more variables (lifting, throwing, running, swimming, endurance, etc.), there can never be a case where all women are on one side of a divide, and all men are on the other.

Transgenderism is NOT a choice

Those previous papers (and, presumably, others), lay down a baseline for an average male brain and an average female brain without which this third paper would not make sense.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people.

In other words, there really are people with brains that physically don't match the typical structure for their body. ("A woman trapped inside a man's body".)

That's not to say that there aren't people around who are perfectly satisfied with their body, even if it doesn't match the average brain type for that sex, but it does show that we need a richer language for how people identify themselves, and be less keen on forcing unscientific labels on people.

As usual, I've disabled anonymous comments, in the vain hope that any conversation will remain civil.

[genericname85]

it has long been known that gender is an endogenetic thing and that there are male brains and female brains. brains develop according to certain hormonal balances that are influenced by which primary genital we grow. testicles will shower the embryo in testosterone and alter the formation of the brain, however the formation of the testicles and the brain are not always in perfect sync so that it happens that the brain is mostly finished before the testicles start their hormonal shower.

that's the reason why gender disphoria is more prominent in men. cause if you don't develop testicles, you won't have a male brain.

however all sorts of different things can go wrong so of course female gender disphoria and also sometimes unclear primary sex organs are formed.

gender is not a choice. sex "somewhat" is, cause doctors can still influence fomation of genitals early on after birth to a certain degree, which is what they often do, when the sex isn't clear.

[goaded]

I did not know about that last part, thanks for bringing it to my attention. It will be interesting if someone does a study on brain formation in pre-adolescent children, to see how early the changes make themselves known. One of the links mentioned research indicating that girls and boys were different in behaviour at a very young age, counted in months (and also monkeys had similar behaviours, eliminating "nurture" as a reason).

[genericname85]

well the study of that would be very problematic ethically speaking xD but yeah. the last part is very very rare by the way. i've dealt with some feminazi morons who claimed "1 in 5 people are born with "unclear" gender and are treated by doctors based on guesstimation". while there certainly is some moreally questionable guesstimation involved, it's certainly not 1 in 5.

[goaded]

I don't know if studying it would be ethically problematic, other than it could lead to attempted "cures" for people who aren't ill.

You can find crazy people everywhere; for example, there was one woman who claimed all PiV sex was rape. For another, there was one man who claimed he had larger inauguration ceremony than his predecessor. :)

1 in 5 is clearly nonsense (you'd know someone!), maybe 1 in 5000, or 50000.

[genericname85]

i mean ethically problematic as in "how are you gonna study this from a technical standpoint". cause ultra-sonic is certainly not suitable for that. you'd need some sort of probing procedure. i don't think any mother would be ok with having stuck probes or electrodes into her belly to observe her childs brain growth xD or have regular sessions with radiation imaging techniques for that matter.

[genericname85]

well i guess you could do it on animals but then feminists will claim humans are not like animals and all that nonsense xD

[z3lda]

Good take. People often dismiss transgender people because it "defies science" but there really is scientific evidence for it.

I've also read briefly that the reason some scientists believe people get a mis-matched brain is dependent on the hormones the person receives in the womb. Transgender men, for example, might not receive enough estrogen and transgender women might receive too much estrogen. There have also been twin studies showing that more often identical twins will both be transgender than fraternal twins, meaning it's most likely genetic rather than a result of upbringing. If you'd like me to find my source on this I can.

It's somewhat irksome how people dismiss transgenderism before putting in any research about it.

[adika63]

I’m white and far from racist. I am against someone making general statements that epitomize ignorance. Hate is hate. Your no better than those that hate transgenderism.

[goaded]

@adika63 I think you hit the wrong opinion, you were probably after @kelsey_disney's

[adika63]

Oh yes you’re correct I wasn’t paying attention after I read that. She is correct there are a lot of bigots I think she just didn’t realize that she is one of them

[elissa23Trans]

A very well written MyTake. I’m a transgender woman myself. I knew from very early in childhood. Unfortunately society was not open to trans people until a year or 5 back. I transitioned 4 years ago and hormone therapy literally saved my life. I’m finally loving my body and I can function in society much better without constant depression from being in a body that doesn’t match. I’m just a woman like any other woman, apart from the chromosomal details.

[JackSmy]

All I see here, is a lot of HATE, BIGOTRY and IGNORANCE!!
Nobody says anything at all about anything scientific, citing papers, and reviewed experiments, reproduced. Just a lot of bias, HATE and conjecture, based on one study, that hasn't been proven!
Men and Women have different brains, with different features, strengths and weaknesses. No surprise there!! We are different, and should be, by evolution.
Why does it matter so much, if someone is Trans, or just loving balloons?
No offense to transgenders, and not wanting to dismiss your feelings, but you are you, and I am me, and we live our lives, and I honestly couldn't care less if you have a dick, or vagina, or if you call yourself FRED!!
Why is this trans thing such a big deal to so many? Leave them be!!!
They are people, like everyone else. They don't mess with you, so just leave them alone, if you don't like them! Go, live your life, your way!
How are they affecting you, except that you just judge them, and hate them, because they don't fit your idea of 'Normal'?

[goaded]

Did you read what I wrote?

The title was changed by someone without my input, from "Some things you may not know about Transgenderism!".

I discuss the meaning of three scientific studies that together show that transgenderism is absolutely scientifically proven and natural, in order to counter the people who claim it's "just a choice", and that they're somehow less than cis-gendered people.

[JackSmy]

@goaded I was NEVER saying it was a 'choice' and not something that is anything but NORMAL for them! Did you maybe misunderstand things I posted?
I have Trans friends, and they are great people, and I don't see them in any way as different, because they are just them, and NORMAL, for them!!

[goaded]

You seem to be agreeing with me very loudly. I don't understand why.

[JackSmy]

Well, then, just accept that then, and agreeing LOUDLY is good, and maybe some posts and some crossed and misinterpreted ones, and so on! :) :)

[MackToday]

Pretty much shows right here that we're dealing with a serious birth defect. If your brain has female like patterns in it, something is seriously wrong with you. We're not doing shit to help these people either, just allowing them to mutilate their bodies and go out and disrupt and menace people on the street. Yet another horror bought about by cultural Marxism.
Also this does show that there is a definite male and female brain the whole argument about some women being stronger than some men is back peddling and desperate mental gymnastics. We know good and well there is a difference in men and women. Also tranys don't act like women. Look at "macho ma'am. Is this dangerous lunatic acting like he has a female brain? Hell no, this is your brain on Marxism an IED wired up with lies to explode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVC-5shAkuE

[JenSCDC]

WOW! Look everybody! He said "cultural Marxism"! Everything he says must be filled with wisdom!

[MackToday]

@JenSCDC Or your soaking in a septic tank of cultural Marxism and I'm trying to warn you to get out before it's too late. Do you not see the signs? Men can be women, there are countless genders. If you can't see who stinking crazy that is you're screwed I can't help you. I'll keep sounding the alarm though.

[goaded]

@JenSCDC It is a very big bright red flag, isn't it.

en.wikipedia.org/.../Cultural_Marxism

"In contemporary usage, the term Cultural Marxism is a right-wing, antisemitic conspiracy theory, which claims that the Frankfurt School is part of a continual academic and intellectual culture war to systematically undermine and destroy Western culture and social traditions.[49] As articulated in the 1990s, the supposed conspiracy means to replace traditionalist conservatism and Christianity with the counterculture of the 1960s to promote social changes such as racial multiculturalism, multi-party progressive politics, acceptance of LGBT rights, and political correctness in language.[50][51][52] "

[Evil_Chuck]

Whoa, actual facts and research and stuff? What's this doing on GAG? xD
An excellent and interesting take, the best I've ever read here in fact. I'm still really uncomfortable with this trans stuff, but that doesn't make it invalid. I suspected there was a scientific basis for it, but I never looked it that closely before.
Taking the discussion a step further: if there was a way to ensure all people's genders matched their mental makeup at birth, would it be right and/or ethical to do it?

[goaded]

Amusingly, the facts and research and stuff came from someone who was saying they proved the opposite of what they do. I just read and understood them.

As to the ethical question, I guess, if it could be done perfectly, yes. But there's no way to do these things perfectly (or even to quantify an individual's sex or gender in all cases, like I said with the strength analogy).

[JenSCDC]

I'm guessing that the bigots are going to hate these facts.

[goaded]

Well, I've already had one call it "liberal bullshit" and accuse me of having a thing for "trannies". I doubt she read any further than the title, though.

[roaring20sman]

Do you hate facts Jen? You say a lot of bigoted things about conservatives Jen. So does @goaded but that's besides the point. Hey I don't judge though. People are more than welcome to live inside their echo chambers.

[goaded]

@roaring20sman It sounds a lot like you're judging, but maybe that's just me.

Is it bigoted to say "some people are born that way"? Or is it bigoted to say science is "liberal bull shit"?

[roaring20sman]

@goaded your myTake is fine. As a matter of fact I wasn't going to involve you with this issue until I noticed your comment but I don't want to digress here. Jen is one known for insulting others who do have differing opinions. I won't lie I'm guilty of this too. However, true Liberals and conservatives are alike in many ways, which is why I try to leave them out of conversations when talking about differing opinions. A true liberal and a true conservative can sit down and discuss the issues of our time without throwing insults around willy-nilly. Don't get me wrong, it's great to expose the feeble-minded individuals here on G@G but Jen doesn't do that. Anything and everything that goes against a certain agenda of hers is bigoted, racist, sexist, and some form of phobia.

[JenSCDC]

@roaring20sman "en is one known for insulting others who do have differing opinions." I only insult those who choose to be stupid and evil.

[Gedaria]

Whether or not this is right, I know how I have felt all my life, ever since I could remembered. I tried going down to the line of a sex change. But it wasn't the answer. My brain was telling me I'm female but the body wasn't. So I tried to bury my feelings, near ended up killing myself with depression. ...

[goaded]

I'm sorry to hear that, but glad you came though in the end.

[Gedaria]

The feeling never goes away it's just as painful, just can cope with the pain a little better...

[goaded]

One day at a time. You can do it.

[Gedaria]

Yes that is all I can do , thanks...

[Wowgirl30q]

You should take Psychology of sexuality or study cognitive sexual response patterns. There's a lot more to it if you enjoy the topic
Gender identity or Gender dysphoria has been in the DSM for decades and isn't leaving anytime soon for good reason.

[kelsey_disney]

There are so many bigots and racists and a ton of white people who would hate on this, but it’s straight facts 🔥🔥🔥

[Supernatural_fanatic]

How is that not being racist by isolating white people?

[kelsey_disney]

@Supernatural_fanatic because white males are always hella racist

[JackSmy]

@kelsey_disney Based on what? Saying that, alone, makes you a 'Racist'!! Can you understand that?

[Mr_Manly_Man]

Kelsey you are more racist than you realise by saying white people would hate this. You are a pure IDIOT

[Browneye57]

I agree with the brain part, but you're talking maybe one in a thousand that this may be valid. The rest of these weirdos just think it's a fad they want in on.
You can cut a guy's dick off and he won't be a girl. And you can sew one on a girl and she won't be a man. It's just not that simple.

This whole fad is just that, a fad. You are what you are, you can try to change it but you're just not. Surely there are a few this is valid for, the rest are kidding themselves.

[goaded]

One in a thousand would be 320,000 in the US alone. It would be a few in every reasonably large school. Like tall, short, or ginger people, it's not their fault, and therefore not reasonable to disparage them for it. You choose to believe it's a fad, you weren't born to do so.

[Browneye57]

Maybe there are a 100 then. ;)

[humanearth]

You got me interested. Now I'm going to learn more. Maybe I find out why I like to crossdress or why I do certain things.

Thanks for the motivation to learn more and not to just accept it.

[ADFSDF1996]

It’s an anomaly, simple as that.

[ADFSDF1996]

*abnormality

[goaded]

In the same way that albinoism, ginger hair, blue eyes, ability to digest milk, etc. are, yes. On average, looking chinese is probably "normal".

[ADFSDF1996]

What do Chinese people have anything to do with that?

[Laura_Marx]

I believe he means that China is the most populous country ^^

I think Occam would commit us to rather more than we might realize, here. Occam was a nominalist and did not believe in kinds or categories. Gender and sex don't exist in this kind of nominalism, we should rather say that there are bodies which have different structures and capacities, and genetic processes which cause them, without having to avail ourselves of kinds and categories that sit above particular humans

[goaded]

@Laura_Marx Thanks, I must have missed that response (although it's 11 months old now!). You clearly know a lot more about Occam than, me, I just know the razor. (Although I know it's that the simplest sufficient explanation is usually the correct one.)

[ADFSDF1996]

@Laura_Marx

The idea that males and females are biological the same, is SocJus pseudoscience for there are literally over 6,000 biological differences between males and females (chromosomes included). So Ocams razor is invalid here, trying to apply Occam’s razor in this topic is actually an oversimplification.

www.sciencedaily.com/.../170504104342.htm

[goaded]

My point was that lots of things are not normal, but they are all real and happen, and it's no big deal.

[Laura_Marx]

I dont know too much about Occam, still a cautious student ^^ The razor is actually that we ought to prefer the explanation that 'posits the fewest entities'. I dont imagine that Occam wrote about gender but if he did he would probably have assumed that 'manhood' was some way a particular body could be, 'womanhood' another way... but now we know about genetics and so on, we understand that bodies do not 'come that way' but that they go through a complicated ontogenesis with many variables. We do not need to (as 'SocJus psuedoscience' might, if it exists) deny that genetic development tends to be isomorphic (that is to say, normally goes one way or the other) to argue against the existence of gender (as a real category & not just a feature of our discourse), we have only to say that once we have described all the particular physical features of the body's ontogenesis (the chromosomes, the genes, etc.), we have finished our explanation, we do not need additional recourse to some general category ('male' and 'female'). From this position the fact that there are many bodies which do not fit the usual description of 'male' or 'female' doesn't trouble us, and in fact we can grapple with the fact that there is a lot of genetic variation between individuals of the same 'sex'.

I think what ADFSDF wants to do here is something kind of the opposite of the razor. The generalities are preferred: the category of male, the category of female. That we, particular bodies, don't live up to the categories doesn't trouble him, because they usually shake out. The particular here is discarded for the universal; particulars that our universals don't cover aren't a sufficient 'excuse' to change our basic categories. This approach is, perhaps, good for learning guitar (where getting bogged down in the details would obstruct pedagogy), fine for fixing engines, less so for transplanting hearts, but I think if you apply it to reason- you're fucked.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@Laura_Marx

Here is the PDF of the study the article was talking about:

[https://bmcbiol. biomedcentral. com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12915-017-0352-z]

The study looked at differential gene expression between men and women but it didn't look at gene expression of intersex people so it doesn't preclude some individuals having a mixed male-female transcriptome (i. e. biological sex falling on a continuum with a bi-modal distribution as opposed to being entirely binary).

[Laura_Marx]

@Ad_Quid_Orator Oh thanks very much! Yeah thats very interesting. I haven't read too much on the science itself because I just don't think I have the know-how to evaluate the info, scrutinize the studies, etc. The way I engage w/ science is I just read philosophy and then I think about it and I tell a scientist I'm dating what I think and she says "nah thats silly because x" or "yeah thats right bcause y" and I consider this to be interdisciplinary. Anyway I'll check it out

[ADFSDF1996]

@Laura_Marx When I say it’s an anomaly, I’m not trying to dehumanize people born with chromosomal disorders. I’m simply pointing out what they are, disorders or anomalies. So that’s the correct way to apply Occam’s razor here without it being oversimplified. While assuming there is more to it than there really is, is an overcomplication that also takes things out of context.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Not everyone who is intersex has a chromosomal disorder.

[Laura_Marx]

@ADFSDF1996 I understand, I didn't think you were trying to dehumanize them. The problem is that our sex/gender categories, which we all know do not correspond to reality in all cases, even if they might in most cases, are enforced socially. In stupid ways like bathrooms, changing rooms, athletics and so on, more severely in prisons, and perhaps most crucially, in the home, where childrens behaviours are policed according to the general categories. It isn't possible to conceive of this system as anything but coercive. The fact that it sets laws and mores which some bodies can *never* live up to - we should regard this as a crucial problem with the framework. And it can have devastating effects, from trans women's murders to intersex children having invasive genital surgery performed on them to make them 'normal'.

[TripleAce]

So does that mean its a defect? And if it is then why is this really only surfacing now

Did this also happen 2000 years ago?
Are these signs of humans evolving?

Hard questions but until we get the answers i dont think we should allow mutilation and what not

Sticking a dick on a female should be illegal
Lets figure it out. I agree there yes

[goaded]

Not a defect, a variation.

[TripleAce]

I dont think we have answered that yet
What we need to figure out whether it's a justified natural change in humans or something is causing such changes...

but we can never know, how do we test for our own evolution if it is that lol

[goaded]

I think it's always happened, but there was no scientific evidence or social acceptance, so people lived miserable lives or died by their own hands.

[TripleAce]

Hard to say that because religious text doesn't have any history of that. Only homosexuals yes. But not this particular issue

I dont think there is really any evidence of that
But could be. History is huge

[Laura_Marx]

@goaded actually most historical societies have had some kind of gender variant social role like ours & while in many they were regarded as sinful, defiled ones, in many others they were accepted as something normal, and in some they had special roles where they might be expected to be priestesses. (Anglo-Saxons called them baedlings and waepenwifstre [this last one literally translates to 'female with a penis'], the Greeks, when referring to a group of Scythian gender variant people, called them the enaree, etc. These terms/gender expressions are not exactly equivalent to trans woman, anymore than travesti or kathoey are, but they're at least closely interrelated). Historically, even in societies where it was considered sinful they were generally thought to really be women. Its only in modernity that people could be sorted in the way they are today, into male and female with very closed borders based on karyotype and so on, and even as this taxonomy frays at the edges we all already think like Linnaeus, in categories and kinds. This is why the Hirschfield Institute was able to see it as a pathology which they could treat, a view that would be very alien to our ancient ancestors.

[Celtero]

I wonder though, would you agree that the fact men and women have different brains justifies the wage gap?

And regardless, I don't think this makes it sensible to put on a wig, dress and makeup as a biological male (looks like crap and you're not fooling anyone)... or allowing biological men to compete in women's sports... or being able to put down the gender of your choice on medical or legal documents... or giving children hormones... Or using tax or insurance to pay for transitions...

[goaded]

No, I wouldn't. There have been plenty of examples of women being paid less for doing exactly the same job as a man.

[Celtero]

Mhhmm, and their brains are different so it's probably rightfully so.

[BasicGirl]

This is a great article but I still don’t believe in Transgenderism

[goaded]

Thanks, but what's not to believe? It's not like other -isms, where you're forced to comply, it just requires acceptence by people.

[BasicGirl]

I don’t believe that women can be men or vis verses with today’s technology

[goaded]

Well, it's presumably not perfect, but it's closer, and like I said in another answer on here, you can at least try to get your body to match your gender.

[ROCKS128]

Pls help me here.
Transgenders are born from syndrome, ryt?

But the gays & self transformed genders! Are they transgenders too?

[goaded]

I don't understand the question. One thing I can say is that they're all people. Excluding people based on some artificial border is wrong.

[JenSCDC]

Being gay is totally different from being transgender.

[ROCKS128]

So being gay is choice?

[JenSCDC]

No, of course not.

[ROCKS128]

How come?

[BoMwarrior]

And why can't being gay be a choice at least sometimes?

[goaded]

@BoMwarrior If you're making a concious choice whether you're gay or not, you're probably bi.

[blythely]

There are more important differences. Males have one or more Y chromosomes. People with no Y chromosomes are women.

[goaded]

Even if they have a penis? Or XX people who have a vagina? It's not that simple.

[goaded]

Whoops, you know what I mean.

[HenryThePooper]

They whole world should have known this already

[goaded]

It's easier to deny when there's no scientific proof. But the same people who deny it will still find a way, just like climate change.

[Ellie-V]

Nice ☺️

[goaded]

Thanks. The links came from someone trying to prove that there are only two sexes and two genders (although, to his credit, he did give a nod towards them not always corresponding).

[dayoftherope]

Dude you can't change your gender. Give it up.

[goaded]

No, you can't, but you can change your body to match it.

[JackSmy]

@goaded Definitely!! I know some that want the full change, and others, that just like living like they feel themselves being, without all the reassignment surgeries!

[PrincessGrail]

I love this Take.

[loveslongnails]

Good information.

[goaded]

Thanks. It's an old post, but I trot it out when people are talking about transgenderism only being about what between the person's legs or genes. I agree with your point elsewhere "In the end, if you've got people who love you and you can love back, what difference does the word "real" matter? Not much, in my opinion. "