So What About The Trans Folks

ladsin

@roaring20sman recently asked a question about gender identity and the same day I had seen quite a few questions about transgender people so I figured I'd write this myTake to cover most of the frequently asked questions I've seen about this topic.

What Is Gender?

Gender is the social and cultural norms associated with a particular sex. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and as such we have certain biological differences (what we refer to as sex differences) but as social creatures we also have societal influences (what we refer to as gender differences). One common example I use is that of a dress. In America where I live it is highly strange for a man to wear a dress, but in different cultures and times it wasn't that odd. The Scottish Kilt and Japanese Kimono being two good examples. Another that comes to mind is that the high heel was originally made for men (for horse riding as well as height), but now it's socially strange for men to wear them.

What is a transgender person?

A transgender person is a person who, for whatever reasons, identifies or wishes to associate with the gendered norms opposite their sex. A male wanting to wear a dress, makeup, and things of that nature may desire to be perceived as a woman; whereas a woman may desire to associate with the stereotypically masculine norms.

What about the plethora of gender identities?

This is where it starts to get weird and this is a relatively new phenomena. Every person has a mix of masculine and feminine traits. As such some people use this information to declare that their are as many genders as there are people. This is silly as the two genders are simply impersonal categories. Every person already has their own proper noun (their name) and making an infinite number of personal pronouns (zhe/ zher, ze, hi/ hir etc) is clunky and ineffective. I once heard a trans activist saying that we should just put someone's preferred personal pronoun next to their name in our contact list on the phone. Bollocks.

Why may someone associate as a gender other than their sex?

There's a few possible reasons for this. The socialization theory is perhaps the greatest cause to the seeming rise of transgender identities where more and more people want to associate as a different gender because they were raised a certain way, or for social acclaim. We know, however, that trans people have always existed in different societies. We know some ancient Romans were, the native American Two-Spirit people were, the Insangoma of the Zulu, and the Asian Hijras for some examples. Thus it seems highly likely that there's at least some biological component. This hypothesis seems to be validated with some of the psychological research particularly with male to female trans persons. The research seems to demonstrate a rank order birthing effect on the instances of trans identity along with homosexuality. With each successive male birth a woman produces stronger antibodies against a male Y chromosomal protein. This means that her body will fight against that protein, the child will not receive it, and thus grow up with more effeminate qualities which subsequently increases the odds that he'll be gay or trans.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-010-9614-3

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0425-9

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-011-9777-6

So What About The Trans Folks

I think that went alright. Let me know if you've got any questions.

So What About The Trans Folks
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  • smølf
    You are confusing gender with gender roles, it's not the same. Gender is synonymous with sex, this is why it's called genitals, why we say "a condition that affects people of both genders" and "someone of the opposite gender".
    The social and cultural norms associated with particular sex is called gender roles.

    A transgender person, it a person undergoing sex-transformation. A person who identifies her/him-self with the opposite sex is defined as gender dysphoria - a clinical expression and a scientific non-political fact.

    The infinite number of pronouns is political and not a fact.
    Like 6 People
    Is this still revelant?
    • ladsin

      Well let's start here... Did you read myTake? Because most people seem to see me define my terms and then stop reading after that.
      I'll also copy-paste my response that I gave to multiple people making similar responses regarding the terminology. "I think you're really missing my entire argument, so I'll try to be clearer.
      I have never and would never say that the differences between the sexes are purely cultural as that's the most asinine thing that someone could say. What I'm doing is using two words to refer to two types of differences. Sex differences being biologically based, and gendered differences which are dependent on culture."

    • smølf

      The problem is this, you are revealing your political ideology with the words you are using, and this is the reaction you will get.

      Those who believe in feminism, gender is a social construct and in more than two pronouns, are saying what you are saying. It's a political statement, not a factual or scientific one, that is my point.

      Unless in some other languages than English, there are only two pronouns. There are two genders, two sets of gender roles and you can't change your sex in any scientific or biological way. Only politically can you change your sex.

      The more than 6000 DNA difference will still be there, the sex chromosome will be unchanged etc..

      And the clinical expression in most countries (not yet subjugated to your ideology, is gender dysphoria).
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

      If you wish a conversation based on facts and not on ideology, I am game, otherwise, don't bother. I am not susceptible to political agitation.

    • ladsin

      I'm not a democrat, I'm not a feminist, I'm not a trans rights activist, so what ideology particularly do you think I'm espousing?
      I know what gender dysphoria is and I don't think that term exists in other cultures as it was a change only made in the DSM-V which I've worked with. The APA explicitly states that gender nonconformity is not a mental illness and the ICD-10 (International Classification of Diseases) does not have gender dysphoria listed in it so I think you're just confusing terms.

      Whether or not you can change your sex is irrelevant to me (obviously you can't) and I never stated nor implied that you could. Hence my entire point about using two different words to reference two different things. I'll reiterate it again in case my point still didn't come across appropriately. FOR THE CONTEXT OF THIS DISCUSSION I am saying that sex differences is a reference to biological differences between the sexes (which for some reason you seem to insist I don't believe in), and gendered differences are the cultural differences expected of each sex.
      You don't have to agree with the definition if you don't want, but we can't have any productive conversation if you're solely stuck on a particular word you don't like. I run into this problem when talking about religion and myth a lot as neither term has any good definition and anthropologists have been debating both for decades at the very least. Thus when I'm talking about it I have to either define it myself or go with the definition someone else has presented. This is just how we flesh out ideas.

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  • FakeName123
    Transgenders are one of the demographic groups with the highest suicide rates. Those rates remain the same even after "transition".

    To me there seems only one valid conclusion: It is a serious mental illness that requires actual treatment rather than enabling their insanity as normality.
    LikeDisagree 15 People
    Is this still revelant?
    • You have no proof. It's just what you want to believe.

    • @DakotaNorth There's plenty of scientific proof. You just want to live in your delusion. I'm an individual with schizophrenia who is called crazy" for seeing things that aren't there and am told to go to a mental institution. Yet you, someone who believes they are a girl when they aren't a girl, get to live that delusion and are catered to. It's just the topic of the day and is popular right now. It's a huge double standard.

    • ladsin

      Well, there's a few things I guess that should be addressed here. I'll start with copy-pasting what I wrote to a few others on this issue. "I don't think it's a mental illness per the DSM-V. I think their rationale is rather sound on this question. The association with a different sexes cultural norms isn't itself sufficient to be classified as a mental illness although significant depression and anxiety that may stem from this would be a mental illness (gender dysphoria). The analogy I always try to give to explain this is as follows: Being an amputee can frequently cause depression and lead to severe anxiety (not knowing how to navigate life without your limbs). Being an amputee isn't a mental illness, rather it's the depression and anxiety that are. Does that help clarify?"

      @InTimoreDei Schizophrenics and schizotypals aren't locked up in facilities because they have delusions, they are if there's sufficient cause to believe they'd be a threat to themselves or others. One of my closest friends, also my roommate, is schizotypal and has never been to a facility. When I worked at a psychiatric facility the only schizophrenics we had were there as a result of threatening to harm someone else (ie my other friend who was trying to sacrifice his girlfriend to god) or themselves (ie a woman who had severe command auditory hallucinations and wouldn't eat for weeks at a time).

    • Show All

Most Helpful Girl

  • Anonymous
    I can understand transgenderism in people who were born hermaphrodites. Or deal with serious hormonal imbalances due to other medical conditions. Everything else is either a cry for attention or mental illness.
    LikeDisagree 15 People
    Is this still revelant?

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What Girls & Guys Said

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  • Celtero
    Hmm... I dunno. Transgenderism just doesn't make sense. Even that definition of gender renders the world worthless in language, because cultures have different roles for males and females, you can't say something like "men are men because they can't wear dresses." ... Right? Otherwise a transgender person would have to say "I identify as the gender of a Japanese man, because I am masculine yet wear dresses."

    And even then, there's normal dudes who have long hair, wear makeup, and they're just punk.
    There's women too who wear short hair and masculine clothes, yet they don't perceive themselves as men.

    So I think that makes it clear you can't define your gender based on how you present yourself.

    And if then gender is based on how you choose to identify, then that's completely useless too, and doesn't actually mean anything. It's like choosing to identify as a doctor. I can't actually do any medical work, but I can get people to call me Dr. Celtero, which is nice.

    So all this transgenderism stuff does is muddle up our language. You cannot convey any useful information with that definition of gender. Gender should always be synonymous with sex, because when it comes to man vs woman, the only thing we need to know is what kind of junk you have, and that tells as much more about yourself based on the cultural context than how you choose to identify.

    And unless we fight back against transgenderism, we're just gonna have more instances of females getting beaten by males in competitive sports, more laws and restrictions against our language, and more people outraged because people classify them as a victim group.

    So What About The Trans Folks

    Also, the reason why men shouldn't wear dresses... is because they look like shit on men! Identifying as a woman won't change that.
    LikeDisagree 6 People
    • ladsin

      I did find that “ma’am!“ meme and video rather funny, but I think you’re slightly confused on some things. Defining gender as the cultural norms associated with a particular sex doesn’t make it superfluous, on the contrary since it clarifies exactly what we’re talking about it makes the term more specific and I think it’s therefor better.

      Yes, a trans person in Africa where there are different cultural norms will look and act in somewhat different ways than say in the US where we have different norms.
      (I hope this link works)
      https://goo.gl/images/xqwZpb
      Let’s take this person as an example. Do they look like a man or a woman to you and why? If your answer is that they look like a man despite being a biological female then you have to agree that certain norms about males and females have affected your perception of males and females beyond the biological. That’s what I, and others, are calling gender.

      As for the question about whether or not MtF trans persons should be allowed to compete against biological females... I don’t see that as being a fundamental issue, we know and can demonstrate that biological males have a competitive advantage over females and whether or not they can be allowed to compete I think depends on the person in question. If a woman wants to fight against a trans woman then that’s their prerogative. If they don’t, I don’t think they should be forced. Same goes for weightlifting competitions. The idea that you can be on female hormones for a few months and then compete against women who’ve been under those hormones for their whole life is ludicrous.

    • ladsin

      So What About The Trans Folks Does this link work?

    • Celtero

      Isn't there a difference between changing gender and getting surgeries to look like a male?

      There's norms set by biology... and then culture. There are no naturally occuring women with that muscle mass. Men... some, but a lot of them probably roid it up too.

      You couldn't put that same outfit and hairstyle on any woman and convince people it was a male. And this is the key part, because if gender was defined by a dynamic appearance then anyone could use the same style to become that gender, even if they looked ridiculously out of place. And that's the issue with the way transgenders operate. They go out with long hair, a dress, painted nails and lipstick, and it looks so awful, because they're a male and that style does not fit their body. It's like if I went out in a wetsuit with flippers and a face painted like a seal, proclaiming that I am one. Nobody is gonna feed me a fish, and no one's gonna genuinely think the transgendered cashier is a pretty girl.

      I think it's important to look at the average transgender person rather than outliers that are actually successful in convincing people they are the gender they claim to be. Never have I ever met someone, who turned out to be the opposite sex that was suggested by their gender. It's always just some dude wearing a dress with socks stuffed in a bra.

      That photo is manipulated to make Logan look more masculine.

      Here's another one with Logan and their partner, so tiny!

      So What About The Trans Folks

      And there's a difference between transexuals and transgenders... I just don't think transgender theory is valid. Because when it comes to language, 'sex' communicates clear and useful information. 'Gender...' well, what does it mean when someone tells you their gender?

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  • Rogzi
    Gender is not a social construct. That idea is laughable.
    LikeDisagree 12 People
    • ladsin

      Did you bother to read it?

    • Jager66

      OP posts: "Gender is the social and cultural norms associated with a particular sex. "

      Gets called out on that shit... Proceeds to claim that people who say: "Gender is not a social construct. "

      Did not read the post...

      OP is dumb.

    • ladsin

      @Jager66 lol guessing you didn’t read it either 😂

      Truly a wise and learned man

    • Show All
  • littleghosts
    You got a pretty good definition of gender though humans don’t really have two sexes. While typical male and female are the majority, there are people with many different sexes known as intersex. As for there are only two genders, that’s a very Eurocentric view of gender and very wrong. Many cultures have more than just male and female. In the Torah, there are 6 defined genders and man nonbinary/trans jewish folk are beginning to use these again. In Hawaiian culture there is a third gender Māhū. Easy google search to find that a binary gender is not the norm. A quick google search on non-european cultures on gender should pull up some more examples. And as for why, it’s not something we should be asking until we are more accepting and understand of trans and nonbinary identities because the next question after “Why does this happen?” Is “How do we stop it?”. You did pretty well in doing your research and understanding. Also don’t be afraid to ask trans folks about these things because some are more than happy to answer so long as they’re not easy questions you can google or are really rude.
    Like 1 Person
    • ladsin

      There are two sexes, that's just biology. There are people with ambiguous genitalia that we call intersex. That's not the same as transgender. If we agree that gender is the stereotypical norms for each sex then there's only going to be two. There are plenty of cultures that have a separate class for what we'd consider transgender. As I pointed to Hijras, Insangoma etc.

      I know a few trans folks, I've been close friends with two. We didn't talk a whole lot about it. because it didn't really have any relevance to our friendship.

  • RachelleDraws
    I agree with this. I don't get why people make transgenderism to be this big scary thing. It really isn't.
    LikeDisagree 14 People
    • Tilin29

      Because instead of dealing with it as a mental illness, which by the criteria of general classifications for a mental illness is one, we take it as if it is normal and that gender is a variable.

      Almost all transgender people suffer from depression and have the highest recorded suicide rate of any recorded group.

      We're supporting a mental illness instead of finding a solution to it. We are modifying the terms man and woman, which in the end is not benificial to transgender people even if it may seem so.

    • ladsin

      @Tilin29 well it’s not a mental disorder according to the DSM as transgender identity needn’t necessarily be linked to depression. The way I’ve tried to explain it is like this: being an amputee often results in depression and anxiety. That being the case being an amputee is not a mental disorder, rather the depression and anxiety are. I do suppose depending on what the person exactly is saying it could be construed as a delusion, but that’s only if they’re talking about their sex and not their gender as I defined it above.

    • Tilin29

      @ladsin
      Yes, it's been declassified as a mental disorder after the pressure of the LGBT community.

      While an amputation might not be a mental disorder, it's still a disability and could be seen as a bodily disorder. It's not as it's supposed to be and people that have this shouldn't be ignored and normalized, rather helped.

      Gender dysphoria or transgenderism as referred to by some, fits all the criteria for a mental disorder. It actually shares an origin of depression, which is an unbalance of chemicals inside your brain.

      No scientific evidence so far has proven that gender is a variable. Gender and sex by definition meant the same until the year 2011. There was no scientific reasoning behind this, it was just a feminist theory (it is still only described as a theory) from the 1980s.

      For the whole history man meant biologically man and woman meant biologically a woman. It's hurtful to people like me, who would never date a transgender person. It's not because I am discriminatory, it's because I don't want to date someone that has a penis or bits of a penis left.

      The only "sciences", if we can call them that, currently approving that gender and sex are two separate things are sociology, gender studies and neuroscience.

      If people can choose to identify as whatever they want to, then I also want my own personal gender because Male doesn't sounds good enough and I think MEGATRON would fit me a lot better.

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  • UI_Vegeta01
    What is a transgender person? A mentally unstable person.
    LikeDisagree 11 People
    • Mentally ill would be more correct. It's a major issue that needs to be dealt with. Instead of supporting their illusions, we should help them. By current logic if a child were to claim that they were a dinosaur, instead of telling the child no they aren't a dinosaur and explaining why they aren't one you're supposed to agree with the child and anyone that doesn't is being inconsiderate.

    • ladsin

      I don't think it's a mental illness per the DSM-V. I think their rationale is rather sound on this question. The association with a different sexes cultural norms isn't itself sufficient to be classified as a mental illness although significant depression and anxiety that may stem from this would be a mental illness (gender dysphoria). The analogy I always try to give to explain this is as follows: Being an amputee can frequently cause depression and lead to severe anxiety (not knowing how to navigate life without your limbs). Being an amputee isn't a mental illness, rather it's the depression and anxiety that are. Does that help clarify?

    • Gender Identity Disorder is a mental illness. A biological male is not woman no matter how much he wishes to be. You can't change your biology. Instead of supporting their illusions and telling them biology doesn't matter, we need to help them realize the truth. So are you saying that if a people started believing they weren't human, they were a dog, you wouldn't see that as a mental illness? You think that society should just accept their delusions as true?

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  • Darklydarkened
    Transgender people usually understand that even though they identify themselves as the opposite, physically they're men/women.

    But people who're wrapped in gender studies classes usually yammer more about it.
    LikeDisagree 2 People
    • ladsin

      Did you read the myTake?

  • CrisisActorFromIdaho
    Exactly, so what about them? Why is the media shoving them in your face at every turn?
    Like 5 People
    • ladsin

      Well I agree that it's being abused by the media and society as a whole as I pointed out twice about the socialization issues.

  • Ellie-V
    It’s not like theirs a million and one genders. The lgbt+ stick with dude, lady, and non-binary (or gender fluid, whatever you choose to call it). It’s not some difficult concept to grasp. Transgender people either identify as a dude or a lady. This isn’t rocket science. I understand when people get confused about sexual identity because there’s terms like demi sexual and all that stuff. But gender identity is very simple.

    Anyways, I enjoyed your take. I’m so glad someone talked about transgenderism without the hateful/ignorant context.
    Like 1 Person
    • ladsin

      I’d agree with you, but there’s been a marked rise of other gender identities hence the whole 20+ new pronouns being suggested or requested by various persons. That’s why I say some rising portion of it is sociological.

  • CaptainLegal
    My dog is also is transgender. She felt like she was a boy and decided that she wants to be a girl. Lmao
    Like 3 People
    • ladsin

      I'm not exactly sure if you think that's funny, or if you think that it's such a ludicrous notion that a male dog would exhibit female dog stereotypical behavior. If the former, eh, our sense of humor isn't that similar. If the latter I find it a rather silly notion as sex differences in behavior is very nominal among dog populations. Males may be slightly more emotionally stable when compared to females, but the research on the subject is relatively lacking. We do know that several other species will have individuals with characteristics similar to our transgenders. Certain species of snakes, lizards, beetles, fish, and birds, all have some portion of the male population that imitates the behaviors and appearance of the females of their species. It's actually quite well documented if you'd like I can link to some research.

  • MackToday
    It's likely a birth defect obviously they are very mentally ill people who are often a threat to themselves and others. They have walked in front of semi trucks to commit suicide, attacked people , there was an ax attack in Australia not that long ago. The only reason research isn't being done is because the far left finds them easy to exploit.
    LikeDisagree 3 People
    • Lliam

      A while back I read an article that said gender transition is one of the biggest (most lucrative) growth industries. Pharmaceutical companies and some doctors are getting rich. So they are helping to push the idea that sexual dimorphism is normal and society should embrace it.

    • MackToday

      @Lliam No surprise there.

  • TonyBologna25
    I refuse to enable delusion. There are two genders/sexes and those have always been considered synonymous until recently. If somebody is schizophrenic and believes that there are ghosts talking to him, are we going to tell him those ghosts are real and his friends and act like nothing is going on when he establishes relationships with these 'ghosts'? No, we're going to give him lithium, so he can live a somewhat normal life. You can believe whatever you want to, but the actuality of the situation is not that you can choose your sex/gender. People who are trans are suffering from a mental disorder classified as gender dysphoria by the DSM-5. Suicide rates are very high within these individuals and post surgery, they are even more prone to suicide. I rather give them the actual help they need rather than enabling their delusion and having the mutilate their genitalia.
    Like 3 People
    • ladsin

      Well you got a bit wrong there, but let's talk about it. First I'll just copy-paste what I wrote to some other similar statements and we can go from there.
      Well, there's a few things I guess that should be addressed here. I'll start with copy-pasting what I wrote to a few others on this issue. "I don't think it's a mental illness per the DSM-V. I think their rationale is rather sound on this question. The association with a different sexes cultural norms isn't itself sufficient to be classified as a mental illness although significant depression and anxiety that may stem from this would be a mental illness (gender dysphoria). The analogy I always try to give to explain this is as follows: Being an amputee can frequently cause depression and lead to severe anxiety (not knowing how to navigate life without your limbs). Being an amputee isn't a mental illness, rather it's the depression and anxiety that are. Does that help clarify?
      Schizophrenics and schizotypals aren't locked up in facilities because they have delusions, they are if there's sufficient cause to believe they'd be a threat to themselves or others. One of my closest friends, also my roommate, is schizotypal and has never been to a facility. When I worked at a psychiatric facility the only schizophrenics we had were there as a result of threatening to harm someone else (ie my other friend who was trying to sacrifice his girlfriend to god) or themselves (ie a woman who had severe command auditory hallucinations and wouldn't eat for weeks at a time)."

    • Sixgun77

      Tony, that's the best response.

    • Sixgun77

      While the DSM and definitions may have been changed recently, that doesn't mean they're CORRECT. Within the last year I've seen dictionary definitions changed to go along with the masses misusing the terms. I have strong suspicions that the DSM is changed due to pressure from special interest groups.
      The are 2 genders, 2 sexes. Everything else is a rare birth defect or mental illness. Transgenderism is an illness that needs treatment. Society needs to stop reinforcing these people's delusions and stop trying to use laws and regulations to force people to pretend it's normal. In fact, I'd argue that since calling a man a woman is incorrect (or an outright lie) it's actually harmful to go along with it.

  • SketchForger
    One of the things where I stand on the fence of is the difference between gender norms and gender expression, because I do not like the implications gender norms have in general. I refer to myself as my sex, and I believe gender as a concept is a little outdated in terms of needing to associate it with any pronouns.

    Simply because I (my own personal perspective mind you) do not believe gender norms can affect who I am and what sex I am. Meaning I do not assign anything society expects of me to a gender, or even a gender norm.

    But that is only my personal perspective, and overall I do not care what other people do.
    Like 2 People
    • ladsin

      Sure, the move for a while now has been to move away from stereotyping gender norms. A highly effeminate man who has long hair, wears some makeup and dresses somewhat girly may still say they’re a man and that those gendered norms are silly and outdated. The problem of course is that as a society we still have expectations or norms for each sex. So a trans person who does the exact same thing as a cis person (say a trans vs a drag queen) can have differ on how they want to be perceived.

  • lofii
    The government put gay liquids in the water system making people gay
    Like 2 People
    • ladsin

      I thought it was only the frogs?

    • lofii

      No

      they put them in the foods fed to people, possibly even baby food as well.

      Anything to do with hormones

    • ladsin

      Probably the vaccines as well don’t you think?

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  • Browneye57
    They're insignificant in the big picture of things. But here you are trying to make a case. pfft.
    LikeDisagree 3 People
  • roaring20sman
    Wow I can't beleive how late I am to this myTake. Anyways I'm not sure why there is so much criticism on your post. I think that this subject overall isn't black and white. Homosexuality is certainly the key behind most transgender people. Not to mention the person's life experiences that played a role in who that person is today. Seems like you can link life experiences/homsexual tendencies to be the biggest key factors in shaping the trans community. As for mental disorder? I'm not sure but I have an easy time believing it. Simply because if you've been around or seen trans people. They can get weird... Not trying to paint them all like that but there's a lot of them out there.
    Like 1 Person
    • ladsin

      All good. I posted this reply to someone else you may find it interesting
      “Do you think that it's such a ludicrous notion that a male dog would exhibit female dog stereotypical behavior. I find it a rather silly notion as sex differences in behavior is very nominal among dog populations. Males may be slightly more emotionally stable when compared to females, but the research on the subject is relatively lacking. We do know that several other species will have individuals with characteristics similar to our transgenders. Certain species of snakes, lizards, beetles, fish, and birds, all have some portion of the male population that imitates the behaviors and appearance of the females of their species. It's actually quite well documented if you'd like I can link to some research.”

  • John_Doesnt
    It's nobody's business, but Christians like to make everything their business. And yes, it's just Christians who have a problem with it.
    Disagree 7 People
    • ladsin

      Muslims don't like it.

    • Does anybody want to be on the same side as Muslims?

    • @ladsin don't take what he says seriously. All he does is talk down on conservatives and Christians. Just another troll.

    • Show All
  • WhoDatGuy
    People can to what they want, its their lives.
    Just don't expect me to support you.
    And this subject affects a small % but gets way more attention then it deserves
    Like 4 People
  • Poormanscomedian
    I wish they would all move to Canada. They would fit in there.
    Like 3 People
  • sp33d
    'With each successive male birth a woman produces stronger antibodies against a male Y chromosomal protein. This means that her body will fight against that protein..' Well, Blanchard and Klassen sure have some explaining to do.
    • ladsin

      Who?

    • sp33d

      As far as I can tell, the ones who started the 'maternal immunisation theory', which is far-fetched to say the least. Relevant info in your 3rd link.

    • ladsin

      Ah thanks, I didn't check all of each article's references. What's your contention with their findings?

  • loser_boy
    That was to long to read but I'm assuming it was good.
    Disagree 2 People
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